by The Daily Republic
July 2, 2013 at 3:29 am in The Daily Republic
Gay marriage not part of God’s law.
Tags: family, Gay Marriage, Guest editorials, Opinion, Religion, updates 38 Comments »
The 21st century called and left a message for you;
All people have the right to be treated with dignity and respect, regardless of sexual orientation, race, gender, or religious beliefs.
Also, the bible does not govern this nation. To presume that everyone living in this country should follow christian doctrine is absurd.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 37 10
This is also in the bible. How come the church has not taken issue with non-virgins being married.
Shall we take that litterally as well?
Or can we just pick and choose the passages that work to degrade a group of American citizens, then right it off as the “moral” way because a fictitious book says so.
22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
22:16 And the damsel’s father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
22:18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 23 7
Don’t forget these nuggets of wisdom culled from the Laws of Holiness and Justice.
9 ¶ And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God
27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you:
Why arent people pushing for the “Defense of Beards Act”
Like or Dislike: 19 8
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There were things that only applied to the Israelites before Christ paid for our sins. But admonishments that were repeated in the New Testament such as against homosexuality still apply.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 7 18
“Gay marriage not part of God’s law.”
“Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. Ant the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time!!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money!!”
“Something is wrong here. War, disease, death , destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a Supreme Being. And between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would’ve been out on hes all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say “this guy”, because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.”
Hot debate. What do you think? 20 10
It doesn’t surprise me that a Baptist would come out against same-sex marriage. There are folks who just want to drag up anything to deny others of equality. Using the Bible brings along a built in crowd. If these folks really are concerned about marriage…..how about divorce? How about dealing with domestic abuse? How about dealing with too many children for a marriage to sustain? No No No. Those issues are too hard to discuss and solve. Better to go after the easy one…..go after the queers! Everyone hates queers! Don’t they? NO NO NO. Finally most of us are becoming educated and believing what human psychology and sexuality is discovering. These folks who go on and on what marriage is have their heads somewhere other then knowing history. Even the Bible speaks of marriage as a combination of families for power, strength and land. There was no mention of love. Women were considered to be property. No mention of male and female only in the sense of making more babies to increase the family numbers. Why? Because children died …….quite frequently. No wonder these uneducated guys with a quill and ink wrote down about saving the sperm and making more babies. And those were times before Christ. Read up about marriage folks before bashing another group who want a recognized relationship by their government. No one is changing the laws of a church….and you can still believe in whatever. Just leave it alone for the rest of the folks who want to move forward. As far as meeting my maker……that will be between He and I. You will be out of it. Thank you very much.
Like or Dislike: 19 9
All of what you all speak of is why I love being the pastor of ANEW UCC:
we (shhh don’t tell anyone) even struggle taken the bible overly seriously as we understand it differently. It has great stories that speak to humankind about who we are but beyond that…
We don’t have a building or high overhead. What money we have pays me a small stipend and the rest goes to projects and helping others.
We believe more in trying to live together in new ways that are NOT dominated by power, structure, who holds/controls the information as everyone has the same voice same vote and if there is not a feeling of consensus, we don’t worry about it.
We believe each person is divine. We believe other faith traditions hold words of wisdom and grace to us. Our biggest desire to learn to love one another better. We welcome anyone no matter what. We have people who attend Sunday morning who are atheist agnostic, and everything in between. We like for people to challenge us with new thoughts. And we practice a path of spirituality that is not focused on us having a “relationship with some deity outside us.” Rather we look inward to understand ourselves and our own needs and hurts believing that doing this will lead us to a better love for self and others.
Sunday mornings you won’t hear the same old stuff and to be honest, you won’t do the same old stuff. We have circle time where we talk about our need to heal, to love, to share. We have multi-sensory where we play and think about ways we touch the divine within us and within nature. We have dialogues. Sometimes I share stories from other traditions.
Upcoming we are meeting in homes to share food, share poems, and other readings that help us live and see the beauty in all.
There is no other group of people I would rather be with than this group of people because we are on a path rather than worrying about orthodoxy and even sometimes any belief.
Like or Dislike: 12 11
Wow that’s interesting. A church uses Christ in it’s name but apparently doesn’t believe in him. I don’t think I’d waste my time or money going to a “church” like that. I’d rather go to a bar where people are more genuine
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First, that’s not what she said. Second, would it kill you to try it….at least 1 time before you judge?
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Are you talking to me Donnie? Couldn’t tell since your post didn’t make much sense.
Like or Dislike: 7 11
No, the Israelites, but the admonishment still applies.
Like or Dislike: 8 9
Instead of believing Christ where he said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me” we can believe the baloney the UCC apparently teaches. I can see why they don’t have a building. When you only have ten members it’s hard to afford a building. What an understatement-“we even struggle taken the bible overly seriously AS WE UNDERSTAND IT DIFFERENTLY”. There is an actual Christian church known as the Church of Christ and it seems to me this false church calling itself the United Church of Christ is trying to capitalize on that and preach another gospel (Galatians 1:6-8)
Like or Dislike: 9 16
You seem to know a lot about the UCC. How do you know they aren’t genuine? It seems to me that maybe it doesn’t fit the superior mold of fundamental Christianity and that is what you struggle with. I have read many times in these debates where fundamental Christians are the first to judge and make accusations against anything that is different from themselves. Would you rather have a million dollar building or use that money to help the less fortunate?
Like or Dislike: 14 9
I would rather a church actually teach about God and his son Jesus Christ along with the charitable works and I’m not a fundamentalist. Any humanist organization can provide charitable works but you won’t learn about God from them.
Like or Dislike: 8 13
The United Church of Christ is quite diverse. We have churches that Biblically believe more literally than the congregation I serve and we have some that believe in-between and some that believe even less. ANEW has many members but chooses to remain free from having a budget of which over 50% of its income goes toward maintaining a facility (most churches that have large buildings spend more money on the building than they do on mission). If we look to Jesus whom so many claim to believe in, he said nothing about a building. In fact, in Luke Jesus speaks of having nowhere to lay his head. Jesus was a traveling sage, rabbi, teacher, peasant. Jesus can be understood as a “way,” which is what ANEW is seeking “a way” in becoming more fully human and allowing others the same generosity. And if you think we “capitalize” on anything I think you have the wrong congregation. There are other local congregations that seem to be capitalizing just fine. We, on the other hand, are seeking to love more fully.
Like or Dislike: 15 9
Why would an atheist bother going to church? They might as well go fishing or golfing instead. The Baptist pastor wrote a very good article showing what is actually a marriage by God’s standard but people don’t want to hear about it. Paul told about this in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths”. The things you are teaching are not from the Bible but would be better suited to Buddhism, Confucianism, or maybe even Scientology.
Like or Dislike: 7 15
Logger: The Jesus movement was not originally about “getting to heaven.” It was a subversive political movement that challenged the dominant structures of the day. For the first 300 years (before the Constantinian Shift when the Empire became ‘Christian’), Jesus followers lived the way. In fact, it was called “The Way” and it was about a new way of being, a new social structure that sought to break down the societal barriers that existed. (Jesus was one of the most controversial humans who ever lived) As the movement continued, it shifted to be about getting to heaven. Orthodoxy became the emphasis. Some would say that both are needed: orthodoxy and orthopraxy, but others do not worry so much about “right belief.”
And you are correct: ANEW is interfaith. We find truth and grace in all faith traditions. But saying that doesn’t mean we don’t believe the Jesus movement holds truth and grace.
It is interesting that you place these things as having to disagree or be in tension. Why is that? Why is it that you cannot fathom that the God who created all things, all ways of being human, CREATED IT ALL cannot be embodied in many ways? Why is it that for you it boils down to an “us and them” and ne’er the two shall meet rather than seeing it all as being a divine message to us of love, hope, humanity, beauty?
The earliest Christians were indeed concerned with eternal life. John 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this ; for the hours is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his (Christ’s) voice, and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment”. We can’t just do what we want with no regard for what God considers right. Proverbs 16:25 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death”. There is only one way to the Father and that is Christ. John 14:6 Jesus said to him (Thomas) “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me”. Buddha can’t save you, Krishna can’t save you, Baal can’t save you, Ra-Ammon can’t save you from eternal death. Only Christ can which is why Christians believe in Him.
Like or Dislike: 6 14
Why do the Baptists have the highest divorce rate of all religions?
I don’t know. You will have to ask them since I’m not a Baptist. Do you have any proof they have the highest divorce rate?
Like or Dislike: 7 14
If you’re not a Baptist, what do you care? Proof? Why should stan have to show proof to you? Why don’t you just believe him? Have faith. You have faith in your bible that you quote from yet there is no proof of anything in it!! It is what it is, a collection of stories and parables to get humanity to raise above the animals. But it is also why the pastor’s letter and your postings are wrong. You rant and point fingers and say “Buddha can’t save you, Krishna can’t save you, Baal can’t save you, Ra-Ammon can’t save you from eternal death. Only Christ can which is why Christians believe in Him. ” Do YOU have proof?
I’m an atheist and have wandered(I have also wandered around the golf course and the lake) into Ms. Mclaughlin’s service and a function of her church and found everyone very nice while you in the pastor condemn. You won’t even accept the invitation to go and listen. If there is any proof to your beliefs then may the Lord my God strike me with lightning…….wait, strike YOU with lightning.
If you don’t post, I’ll accept that as proof.
Like or Dislike: 13 10
If you’re an atheist why would you think there is a God who could strike me with lightning? I’m not condemning a person just pointing out teachings that are not in accord with the Bible. I live 120 miles from Mitchell so I won’t be going to the UCC there any time soon. If you’re a Christian pastor your concern should be bringing people to Christ not any of these other philosophies. You want me to prove God exists. What proof do you have that He doesn’t? Regarding divorce the Baptist church does have the highest rate among Christian denominations however the divorce rate of non-Christians is much higher than any of the Christian denominations. Christians also have a much higher marriage rate than non-Christians.
” I’m not condemning a person just pointing out teachings that are not in accord with the Bible.”
” we can believe the baloney the UCC apparently teaches. I can see why they don’t have a building. When you only have ten members it’s hard to afford a building. What an understatement-”we even struggle taken the bible overly seriously AS WE UNDERSTAND IT DIFFERENTLY”. There is an actual Christian church known as the Church of Christ and it seems to me this false church calling itself the United Church of Christ is trying to capitalize on that and preach another gospel (Galatians 1:6-8) ”
“A church uses Christ in it’s name but apparently doesn’t believe in him. I don’t think I’d waste my time or money going to a “church” like that. I’d rather go to a bar where people are more genuine ”
So what exactly does condemning someone sound like to you?
120 miles is not that far when you put it in context……Life is what you make of it. I’ll bet if you have children you went 300 miles to see a game or some event they were in.
You lose the bet, Don. I never even traveled 20 miles for any of my kids school events. Condemning a person would be if I attacked someone’s personal character which I did not do. I did go after a religious philosophy which has more in common with humanism than with Christianity. I’ve looked at the UCC website and it actually doesn’t seem to match up very well with what the Mitchell pastor is saying. The UCC.org website says they believe in a triune God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So they are saying they believe Christ is God not merely a man. I should know better than to try to reason with people who seem to want to mock God (invisible man living in the sky) (cosmic angel). Even if I was an atheist I think I would want to avoid mocking God just on the chance I could be wrong. God is not a man nor is he an angel. Angels are merely created beings who are servants to God who created all things.
Like or Dislike: 6 15
Do you have any proof your cosmic angel created the world? Do you have proof that the world was created in 6 days? Do you have proof there is a heaven or a hell? Didn’t think so past your “faith”. Here is my proof at least that is real:
Atheists have the lowest divorce rate.
21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistfamiliesmarriage/a/AtheistsDivorce.htm)
Looks like the red stators who think that gays should not be married do not really believe in marriage themselves by their high divorce rates: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/08/26/new-report-shows-divorce-rates-highest-in-bible-belt-states/
So now that I have proven my statements let see some empirical evidence to support your statement.
Like or Dislike: 10 8
The Gospel of John was written anywhere from 90-100 AD and if you read all the Gospels you will find that the Jesus in John is much different than the synoptic Gospels. In Mark, the first gospel, Jesus is earthy. By John, he becomes a very cosmic Jesus. Some would say John is a gnostic Gospel. Others would say that John’s community was speaking a sort of anti-language that only insiders would understand.
To quote regarding John 5:28-29: “Some scholars see vv.26-30 as a second version of the speech in vv.21-25. Since the middle of the nineteenth century, the word eschatology has been used to refer to the final condition of humankind. Some scholars have held that John speaks of the final condition of humankind as occurring already. They call this feature in John ‘realized eschatology,’ and they find it in vv. 21-25; on the other hand, they see a ‘final’ eschatology in vv. 26-30 that is quite different. There is much dispute, however, about which section is older. Verse 27 uses the title Son of Man in a fashion not unlike the Synoptics. However, it seems that eschatology is not at issue in this Gospel. Rather, John simply expresses his usual antisocial perspective: Jesus gives new life already now; new life enjoyed by member’s of John’s group in their continuing interpersonal experience of the Son of Man. For life in the antisociety, all time collapses into the present–a broad enduring present.” Bruce J. Malina & Richard Rohrbaugh (Social-Science Commentary on the Gospel of John)
Like or Dislike: 12 9
I read the Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels many years ago. I don’t believe John is a Gnostic gospel. So are you saying there is no afterlife? That this life is all there is? If that’s the case life has very little meaning. The only difference between us and animals would be we are more intelligent.
Like or Dislike: 7 12
They may have been when John wrote but what is in the bible today is not really what he wrote. Which means it has paraphrased numerous times by numerous authors. Picked over, added to, deleted from to serve someone’s purpose.
Like or Dislike: 12 7
The letter from the minister even brings that point home.
“The fifth commandment says ‘honor your father and your mother'” which jumps right out at me, as I was raised Catholic, and that was our FOURTH commandment. Depending on how you view it, there are at least three variations on the Ten Commandments (and quite a few more if you include more minor word changes).
If you go back to the source language there are two versions of the Lord’s Prayer, which have different numbers of clauses (the edited versions of the bible make sure to eliminate this hole). Oh, and that convenient word “trespasses” used in so many versions of the prayer? The proper translation is debts, which gives a new spin to the prayer.
But hey, ithe Bible is clear about homosexuality, right? Why sure, as long as you only look at the translations and interpretations done by people who did not like homosexuality. No conflict of interest there.
Like or Dislike: 7 5
So does that change that the commandment is still there whether it is numbered 5 or 4? No the message still comes through. As far as the Lord’s Prayer Jesus never intended for us to repeat it over and over like robots. He was just giving it as an example of how to pray to the Father. You’re trying to make it appear the original manuscripts did not show disapproval of homosexual acts. Can you show where anywhere in the Bible of any translation that it says homosexual acts are fine with God? Keep on nitpicking. Some of the commenters have said they are atheists. That’s fine but allow people of faith to have their opinions and to openly express them.
Like or Dislike: 4 8
All can express their opinions, no one is stopping or editing them. The problem is the people of faith’s opinion is to not only say something is wrong but they don’t want to allow it. They want to step on others rights to enforce their opinion. While not the subject of this discussion, abortion has been legal for 40 years and the people of faith’s opinion have been hammering away and are doing anything (Texas, North Carolina)legal or otherwise to get their way.
Like or Dislike: 8 5
“Nitpicking”? The entire basis for New Testament condemnation of homosexuality is based on nits (especially when it comes to homosexuality – the New Testament has only a few disputed nits on the subject – and the most on point nits are mistranslations). I love that. So, your argument is basically, “I don’t care if it turns out that my condemnation of homosexuals is based on mistranslation, I still know what God wants.” Btw, so did the folks who used the bible to support ________ (fill in the blank with slavery, multiple wives, the crusades, etc.).
The only reason life has meaning for you is because you believe there is an afterlife? That is more scary than your belief about God. This life has meaning because there is love, there are colors, flavors, smells, sounds, songs, movement, hope, animals, spouses and partners, children, spaces where the divine resides when one is touched by the warmth of the sun.
Just this afternoon I walked down my driveway. The feel of the sun, the warm breeze, the smell of the flowering tree…this life has tremendous meaning and for anyone to think otherwise diminishes the hope that exists here, now, as we live and breath. This life is the gift. Not some other one.
The afterlife…not worried about it. Find too much beauty right here.
Glad to hear you read Pagels. Maybe try Borg???
Logger: If you remember earlier I said, THE UCC IS QUITE DIVERSE.” I hold my ordination in UCC. The church I serve is accepted into the UCC. There is another UCC church in Mitchell that differs greatly from the one I serve. There are two in Sioux Falls: one much more traditional. The other much more progressive. THe UCC believes in covenant relationships among its church with autonomy so we are free in the UCC to embody the church as we desire. National Office, the website, you checked does not dictate to us what we believe or how we come together as church.
Also if you checked further you would see that the UCC has been ordaining the gay and lesbian community since the 1970’s and churches within the UCC are free, as they choose, to officiate at same sex weddings. The topic that this discussion was concerned with. And finally: Whether many folks agree or not Christianity is changing and for good reason. People are becoming tired with superior attitudes that condemn others based on God/Jesus/Bible. Its getting old.
I saw that the Congregational UCC church in Mitchell has a building and an interim pastor who I’m guessing took your place. I’ll continue to take the Bible more literally that gay marriage is an abomination in the sight of God which is why I agree with the Baptist pastor on this issue. What passes for Christianity may be changing but God never changes. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t care what century it is. It doesn’t matter to me if humans condemn me only if Christ condemns me. I’m not a fundamentalist or a Baptist. I don’t believe God is a trinity and I don’t believe that there will be a hell where people are tormented forever. The majority of good people will not go to heaven. There will be a new heaven and a new earth (this earth renewed) and most good people will inherit the paradise earth. I do find some good in the fundamentalist’s ideas because they are right about gay marriage and abortion. Unfortunately I view your church as the “Church of do whatever feels good” and that’s not for me.
Like or Dislike: 5 13
I do see why almost 100% of conservatives and Christians no longer bother with this website. If it hadn’t been for me standing up for the Baptist pastor there would have been very few comments on this issue just as there are rarely many comments on any of the articles on this website. I’m done with it as well. I guess from now on the liberals can have a liberal “love fest” in their comments on articles.
Don’t be scared. It’s just a sign of the times. People are starting to see through religous dogma and superstition. The flame is burning brighter than ever!
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Don’t go away mad and don’t go away.
I hope you understand that myself and others just don’t agree with you and the main crux of your arguments is the bible and for myself and others you might as well use Star Wars quotes to make your point. The question is a civil rights question in our minds and not in yours or the pastor’s and that’s where you lose. The Supreme Court and most of the populace agrees with our point of view and you don’t because of………the bible. And like RickM said, that is an argument that has been used over the ages with bad results.
Till next time
Like or Dislike: 6 3
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