by DL-Online
Same-sex couple denied ‘family’ golf pass in Fargo
February 7, 2013 at 6:59 am in DL-Online
A Fargo gay couple legally married in another state says they may shoot for birdies elsewhere after being denied a discounted family pass to the city’s public golf courses. Continue Reading
Mehtinks the Park District got stung by a couple more interested in press coverage than anything else.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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How is “orientation” legally determined?
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As I understand it, the Park Board simply followed the ND definition of marriage. Others not married in the eyes of the state are also subject to this dictum, so I’m sure it can be labeled “anti-gay.”
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Edit: not sure it can be labeled..
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Ron Burgundy, the Park District is still “in the middle of this debate” if you are suggesting that the Park District should ignore the law. Ignoring the law doesn’t keep them out of the debate, it just has the Park Board chosing the side you prefer. While you and I may personally feel that the law should be changed in North Dakota, it is the law and until the law changes and public entities should follow the law. My reccommendation to you is that rather than critizing the Park District for following the law you drive to Bismarck and raise awareness of the issue by speaking directly with your representatives, protesting and advocating for change.
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I’m intrigued, a 40 year old man brings in his 14 year old legally married wife (the couple were married in NC, where you can marry at age 14 with a court order). Their marriage would not satisfy ND law (you have to be 16 in ND) and would be viewed as troubling by most, but do they get the family discount? They are heterosexual.
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A very interesting hypothetical. Thanks for posting it. I would say that since the ND Constitution specifies marriage as a union of a man and a woman, it would recognize the marriage of the NC couple, since it complied despite the age difference. What if a person with an ND drivers license at 15 tried to get a CA license with a 16 age limit?
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Rick, the “full faith and credit clause” of the United States constitution requires public acts of one state to be recognized by other states. The only reason this does not apply to same-sex marriages is the Defense of Marriage Act which is a Federal law that defines marriage as one man and one woman, and provides that other states/Federal Government don’t have to recognize same-sex marriages. Incidentally, that was enacted during the Clinton Administration. The big question is whether or not the Defense of Marriage Act itself violates the “full faith and credit clause” of the Constitution. We may have an answer to the Constitutional question because the Supreme Court is scheduled to hear the issue the next term.
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Actually, this is a common misunderstanding. The full faith and credit clause has been shown multiple times to apply to decisions made by the courts but does not require the replacement of one state’s approach with another with regards to things like marriage (actually, marriage is often the reason decisions have been made in the past). That having been said, most SCOTUS watchers seem to think that a supreme court review and ruling on DOMA may be in the offing in the next few years. Weirdly, it is this fear of the full faith and credit clause that was used to push DOMA through (and we will likely hear more about it as gay marriage issues continue to play out).
In the end, the courts are going to have to grapple with multiple problems. For example, a Texas court recognized a gay marriage so that it could dissolve the union through a divorce. The case was reversed on appeal and is now in the Texas supreme court. As more of these types of things happen the courts will have to take up the issue.
Think about just the example from this story, these folks turned down a gay couple, which leads to lots of interesting questions:
* Do they make sure to ask every pair if they are married? And do every pair have to present themselves?
* What do they accept as proof?
* Do they ask to make sure that the married couple is in fact a heterosexual couple (what if one or more of the names is not clearly male or female)?
* Does common law marriage count (no documentation)?
* If the couple were married as a heterosexual couple and one of them is now choosing to live as the opposite sex, is that acceptable?
* Same situation as above, but one had had gender reassignment surgery? (How about if both had had gender reassignment?)
* What constitutes proof of gender?
* What about marriage involving intersex individuals (e.g., due to hermaphroditism, undetermined gender, etc.)?
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They sound like a couple of self-absorbed media hounds.
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Legally married in Iowa, not ND. I imagine a discount in the Hawkeye State would have been a gimme. Point is, they must have known what the specifics of the plan were, knew they did not qualify, and did it anyway. Instant press coverage, which is what they were really seeking.
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Thing is, this policy “discriminates” against everyone unmarried. Just like 1/2 off drinks on Ladies’ Night discriminates against men, and 10% Senior Citizen discounts discriminate against those under 65.
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Nope. The people of ND placed in the Constitution an official definition of marriage, with which the relationship of this couple does not comply. A local municipality cannot creat its own law or interpretation to override that.
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“Nope. The people of ND placed in the Constitution an official definition of marriage, with which the relationship of this couple does not comply.”
I am sure the people of the south felt the same way about jim crow law’s back in the day. History views the southern whites that supported the laws as racist, backwards, and bigots. Just because it is law it does not make it the right thing to do. If north dakota wants to be viewed that way that is fine. But I would hope fargo would be a proggressive city and support the rights of everyone.
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History has plenty of stories that in retrospect are found to be unpalatible: Jews as Christ killers, Galileo as heretic, slavery as Biblically approved. Nonetheless, at this point in history, marriage is viewed as a heterosexual union. If subsequently that view is changed, then homosexual marriage will be recognized. That doesn’t change my view that this act is simply a publicity scheme by the couple invoved.
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Ron, the slippery slope you are on is that you are advocating for public entities to ignore any law that they determine to be repugnant or they believe is unconstitutional. I am certain that there are more than a few North Dakotans who pray for law enforcement to ignore the law and prosecute abortion providers for murder. Personally, I find the 5% State sales tax repugnant (it is very regressive) and would love to see Fargo stop collecting the State sales tax. But there is a difference between individuals choosing to ignore the law and people acting in their capacity as public officials from ignoring the law. I am a firm believer that a collective group of individuals who find themselves on the just side of an issue will ultimately prevail. Women can vote, African Americans can vote, slavery was abolished, discrimination was address in the United States and there are countless other social changes that have been successful. I encourage you to get involved and, as I posted above, contact your legislative representatives, protest and become active if same-sex marriage is a social issue you feel requires change. You too can refuse to sit at the back of the bus.
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Actually, its more complex than that. These folks say they ask the question about whether they can file their taxes jointly. This is the crux of one of the suits regarding DOMA (that couples in states where they are legally married are not allowed to file joint federal returns). So, what happens if DOMA is overturned, does that mean the policy changes or do they do something else? How do they check how people file?? If the couple claimed to be able to file but do not is there a fine associated with it?? If the person taking the membership suspects that the couple is not married from a ND point of view (maybe the two names do not appear to be a man and a woman, etc.) what do they do (if anything)?
Members of the Fargo Park District office should not be making these decisions for all kinds of reasons that could lead to lawsuits down the line. And this is not just a homosexual issue, this is a general issue. Formal marriage is declining significantly, especially among people of middle and lower incomes. Is it really serving anyone to deny benefits to long term couples (who might have children together and own a home together) that choose not to marry?
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“With liberty and justice for all”
Not just liberty and justice for one kind
but for all.
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Do they actually check the marriage liscense of heterosexual couples? Can they produce a rejected application from a heterosexual couple? Until they do this I believe the couple has a case.
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