Fargo church targets disenchanted Catholics, embraces gays
December 11, 2012 at 10:39 pm in Grand Forks Herald
St. Odilia American National Catholic Church bills itself as a non-judgmental parish welcoming everyone, whether they are gay, divorced, disenfranchised or in recovery. The Diocese of Fargo says Catholics should not attend this schismatic parish, and anyone who does so could be excommunicated. Continue Reading
Now there are two words you don’t hear much anymore: “schismatic” and “excommunication.” For well over a millenium these, along with “heresy”, were key to keeping Catholics in line; mainly because they led to burning at the stake. Now that punishment is prohibited, so the words have to suffice.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Gene, so the Catholic Church doesn’t have the right to decide who belongs or not? So much for freedom of religion. Over the last century it is Christians who have been burned at the stake by secularist atheists. Heresy means that he teaches things that are not what the Catholic Church teaches. Schism means that he has broken with the Bishop of Rome. Excommunication means that he has left communion with the Catholic Church and cannot receive the sacraments. All of those things are manifestly true, so the terms are descriptive. As for “non-judgmental” his words about Catholicism are extremely judgmental as are yours.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Oh, I have no problem with the Roman Church establishing doctrine and insisting that its followers adhere to it. That is its right. And, I have on more than one occasion criticized Christians of all denominations who follow a buffet lunch policy whereby they put on their plate what is appetizing, and leave what isn’t.
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If you have no problem with it then why did you complain? Knee jerk reaction? If a member of the American Atheists said they believed in God and were kicked out that would make sense. This is a similar situation. You should laud the Catholic Church for being consistent here.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“Excommunication means that he has left communion with the Catholic Church and cannot receive the sacraments”
I agree with everything you say Jake (I was born and raised Catholic. I took the Sacraments up to Confirmation. I went to the dark side and became a Baptist over theological differences with the Church) except with your use of excommunication. Correct me if I am wrong, but excommunication is an action the Church takes, not the individual believer.
The Church excommunicates you for failing to follow teaching. You do not excommunicate the Church. Excommunication is a big thing and requires a specific, legal process because in effect the Church is saying you are going to hell.
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Excommunication, as in this case, can be incurred latae sententia which means by the fact that you did something. It does not mean that you are condemned to hell. It means you cannot receive the sacraments.
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OK, I’d resolved not to comment on this thread — but then I saw that Jake had written:
” Over the last century it is Christians who have been burned at the stake by secularist atheists.”
Really Jake? Please provide the details.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Secular Atheists that killed Christians include Stalin, Lenin and other communist dictators. This clearly happened in the last century (1900′s).
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Those guys killed anybody who stood in the way of their quasi-religious form of Marxism. They were power hungry dogmatists — but didn’t kill anybody in the name of atheism.
Stalin actually supported the Orthodox church when it suited his purposes.
Go bash another straw man!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I believe Stalin actually studied for the priesthood and Castro was educated by the Jesuits.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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From what I understand, Hitler also attended the seminary.
Don’t forget Pol Pot, Mao ZeDong and others.
Its either halo or horns. Not in between. Hiltler, Stalin, Lenin and a host of others wore horns and despised Christians.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Yes, then he became an atheist and murdered over 30 million people.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Jake, no cause and effect there. Stalin killed because he was a megalomaniac and sadist. If he was an atheist it was the least of his problems.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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realist, if you admit there is no cause and effect between Christianity and violence then you might have a point. Are you willing to admit that? You can’t have it both ways.
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The common problem underpinning the mass murderers mentioned is the imposition of dogma on unwilling others. For Stalin it was his hyper-toxic version of Marxism. For Hitler (who was a catholic BTW), it was National Socialism. For Mussolini it was Fascism. All of those nasty folks did bad things to anybody they considered threats — but struck deals with the churches when it suited them — the latter two mentioned being prime examples (and Stalin too).
By definition, atheist means lack of a dogma (belief in a a deity). As such, atheists don’t murder people to defend their dogma.
Jake et al., before you post another bigoted comment, try substituting something like “Christian” or “Jew” or “Muslim” in the place of “atheist.” I’ll humbly suggest it might give you the perspective of humility that religious folks often say is a virtue.
Other than that, ponder why the predominantly atheist countries on this planet are the most peaceful and civil.
Happy holidays!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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North Korea is an atheist country. Very peaceful. Atheists are always dogmatic. Often they lump all religions together and say “religion” is violent. Odd that they object to receiving the same treatment.
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As with a typical dogmatist, jake goes beyond not getting it — he refuses to get it!
In contrast, I’ll try to lay out something that bears a resemblance to objective reality. Here goes:
- It’s really ridiculous to describe North Korea as an “atheist country.” The reality is that its highly oppressed people are forced to pay homage to the dead quasi-god (“dear leader”) Kim Jong Il. The dogma that goes with this “necrocracy” is a Stalanist-Marxist ideology. Communist dynasty is another apt descriptor.
- It’s equally ridiculous to describe atheists as dogmatists. The majority of people who reject belief in the supernatural do so because of its irrationality. Thus, atheists generally stand for reason over superstition.
- In countries where people are not oppressed by dogmas, and can make their own choices, those with the most non-religious people are generally the most civil and peaceful. It works the other way round too — ponder what an oasis of peace and tranquility is the “Holy Land!”
- Of course all religions are not the same! If Jainism replaced the Abrahamic religions the world would undoubtedly be a more peaceful place! Even better, if the philosophy of secular humanism prevailed all humans might be able to get along!
Imagine that!
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North Korea is undeniably atheist and secular. They get along with everyone so great. You can’t dodge the facts. People are violent whether they are religious or not. It is an atheist dogma that religion causes violence and they believe it with fervor although it is false. Eliminating Christianity will not create a non-violent world. Do you get it?
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Of course I get it jake.
I absolutely “get it” that I have more chance of talking the leg off a table than changing your defensive ideology.
The only reason I respond to you is to demonstrate that to interested observers!
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I would use many words to describe Stalin, but secular is not one of them. In a conversation such as this I think people had better define their terms.
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Stalin was extremely secular and a devout atheist.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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Eric, some people believe that matter magically came together for no reason and formed the universe and us. It is a myth that cannot be proven scientifically. The scientist who discovered the Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest. The real myth is that religion and science are in opposition, that is an embarrassment to the human race.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Science functions on theories with which you make predictions with which you create a model to conduct an experiment to test the hypothesis. Religion is the belief in mysterious beings and paranormal forces which in their very nature can not be tested, proven or challenged. You’re right, there’s plenty of brilliant scientists who also believed in higher powers. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. It was the understanding of the scientific process that led to the developing of the Big Bang theory by Lemaître, not anything form the bible. He was also very opposed to any mixing of science and religion. I’m not sure what you feel the correlation is there. If the creator of the Polio vaccine believed in Bigfoot does that lend more credibility to Bigfoot? Christians, Muslims, Jews, Ufologists, 9/11 truthers ….they all have made up their minds and bought into a fantasy that brings them something in their lives. It fills some hole. You can show them all the evidence in the world that their belief is based on faulty logic, irrational thinking, or out and out lies but there’s no swaying them. It’s a dangerous way to think. Is the average guy and gal heading to United Lutheran on Sunday a dangerous person? Probably not. But, because we’re supposed to show such respect to their fantasy it forces us to show respect to everyone’s fantasy. There’s over 44,000 sects of Christianity alone. Some of them are just a nice old Swedish couple going to church on Sunday to worship. Some want to deny their Leukemia stricken children blood transfusions because that’s what they decided in their fantasy. Some devote their lives to helping others selflessly, others devote their lives to oppressing homosexuals. Should religion be outlawed? Of course not. It’s a free country. But people in this country need to stop walking on eggshells around people who believe in such silliness and allowing them so much power in our lawmaking. Religion is a meme that has long outworn it’s welcome.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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My point was simple. Many of our great scientists are also believers. They don’t agree with you. Can you prove scientifically that there is no God? Of course not. So you believe something that cannot be proven scientifically. You accept a myth. You lump all religions together without any consideration of their differences. That is not scientific. Islam is not the same as Amish. It is silly to believe your myth. Beethoven believed in God and I doubt you could match his musical skill. Was he stupid and irrational? Your bigotry shows that you simply don’t know what you are talking about and it is unwelcome.
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One of the reasons why religions exist is because it’s so hard to answer the complex questions about our origins. People save themselves a headache by simply concluding “god did it!” Objectively, this approach is known as the argument from ignorance.
Can it be proved scientifically that there is no god? No, but as physicists like Victor Stenger have eloquently demonstrated, the hypothesized evidence that should be there if gods existed cannot be found.
Maybe jake, instead of sounding off here, you could read some of those arguments? I recommend books by Victor Stenger and Laurence Krauss for starters. Here’s a primer: http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/why_is_there_something_rather_than_nothing
Enjoy your reading — and Happy Holidays!
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I can suggest some books for you to read, but you won’t. However, you do admit you believe something that can’t be proven. You have great faith.
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Well I’m glad these people found a place to worship. I’ve always believed we all believe in the same God just in different ways and usually based on to whom we were born and how they raised us. You shouldn’t have to hate or not belong in your religion. If that’s the case and in your heart you can’t believe the same as the organized religion you’re in your lucky to be in America where you can find a religious alternative that makes you happy. The most important thing is that you do believe in God and live your life in a manner that respects others and allows you to respect yourself. The biggest failure of religion is all the people in this world that die each year because of religous leaders and their followers who believe their way of believing in God is better than your way and are willing to allow the killing or worse preaching the killing of those who’s ideas and beliefs differ from theirs. In the end we’ll all be judged on how we lived our lives. Not which formal church you went too.
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Religions have kind of lost the point. Should just worship One god, his only son. But should also have strong belief in Science to truly know where we came from, to learn and to expand and accept. The bible is quite out of date with what we know now. It’s like buying an old encyclopedia, I’d rather have the up to date version.
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Rich, yet you just did the same thing. You think your beliefs are best and the others are wrong. I can’t remember any homily that called for killing people. Do you fear that the local Lutherans are going to kill you? Ridiculous.
eldred, the Bible says love your neighbor. Guess that’s out of date eh? I think it is your view that is out of date.
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Jake — I partly agree with you for once! That’s because eldreton used “beliefs” and “science” in the same sentence. Careful scientists tend to avoid that because it’s unscientific and dogmatic to “believe” in a scientific theory. In contrasts, real scientists are constantly testing their theories to see if they hold up to scrutiny (the opposite of defending the faith!).
Real scientists eldredton, talk about the quantity and quality of evidence, and based upon that assessment, their level of confidence in it.
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I mentioned the bible, not the ten commandments.
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Justasec, Science has proven many things. believe what you want, but I believe the earth is over 4 billion years old, Evolution has been a role on the planet since first living organism formed a few billion years ago. Humans have been walking this planet for tens of thousands of years before religion came about, starting with multiple gods, godesses depending what country they came from, eventually coming down to ONE GOD to believe in. Some still believe in the adam, eve thing, but there is no fact or truth to it, is one of the bible myths, same goes for noah’s ark which was taken place on a land depression that flooded off coast of the mediterranean sea, we know now it was only his own farm animals he put on his arc ship. So believe what you want, we are finding more about this planet every day. We are here to learn about out planet, its history, not be stuck in the past, but to hold some points of it for our wisdom and learning, to take care of this planet for our future, to not bring harm to it from us, since we are only along for the ride.
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I believe in God and I believe in evolution.
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Relax eldreton — I’m simply trying to explain the difference beween theory and dogma. You should appreciate the differences — here’s some dogmas:
- Catholicism
- Communism
- Islam
- Heaven
Here’s some theories:
- Gravity
- Evolution
- Germs cause most diseases.
- The earth is 4.4 billion years old.
None of those theories are categorically “proven” but the evidence for them is so extensive that you can have almost complete confidence in them. Note that the inherent skepticism of science means that the right evidence of disproof would blow that confidence. Note that believers of those dogmas will invariably refuse to even consider evidence against them.
It’s called “defending the faith” and it’s not a virtue!
Peace in this holiday season!
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Atheism is also an unproven dogma. Merry Christmas! If you celebrate our holiday then you are worshiping Christ, like it or not.
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“Our holiday?” LOL!
If the mythical Jesus actually was born, then it was certainly not on December 25. That date was traditionally celebrated for centuries because it was the first time the days became noticably longer after the winter solstice.
…but then your catholic forefathers hijacked it from us pagans!
If you are a Christian then Happy Christmas! However, you can spin the history all you want, but the solstice celebrations are the original “reason for the season!”
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Jake, I also am a christian, believe in God, evolution. I also believe Christmas isn’t about buying a bunch of stuff, but getting together for a single purpose, God’s only son.
Justasec, Every religion has random beliefs, how they follow their idea’s, There are many different churches, congregations out there, I am none of the religions you listed. Religion is about following your own path, individual beliefs, should not control what you do in your personal life. Do I care what my church thinks about what one should do in their personal life, no, they don’t control who I am. I have visited many churches in the area. If a church thinks they can restrict what you believe, where one wants to go or what church to visit or what to eat on some particular day, It is the wrong religion for you. A religion should be open minded to it’s followers, to bring in new idea’s, it’s why many congregations left catholicism to encourage their own views, beliefs.
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justasec, Christmas is celebrated because it is 9 months after the Annunciation on March 25th. Even pagans knew it had nothing to do with paganism. Christ welcomes your worship.
elder, religion is about follow God, not our own inclinations. God’s view is the one we worry about, not what others think. If religion doesn’t affect our personal lives then it is just for play and not serious.
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Jake, I’m a Believer in God and Science, I do read much about human and earth history and much about science. I have nothing to do with any religion that listens to a guy in another country about what to do. This is America, we should have grown above that by now, most religions have. Just as we got out of having a king from England running this country. Gods view is a simple one, 10 commandments, that’s it. As far as the rest, live your life as you wish and enjoy it and learn, expand your horizons, know all there is to learn about this planet. I read some of the bible, Once. I have better things to read.
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Where in the New Testament does it say the Annunciation was the 25th of March? The Jews used a lunar calendar. In fact, where in the New Testament is there any justification for Catholic Doctrine, from Original Sin to a Pope?
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True gene, Nowhere in the bible does it specify any specific religion. Only to worship God, His son and holy spirit. Makes no sense to me why catholics seem to look and worship the pope like he’s some god…
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Eldred, Jesus was not born in America. He was born overseas. So I guess he can’t tell you what to do? I am always amused at anti-Catholic bigotry. For example we don’t worship the Pope. However you appear to worship a book, the Bible, rather then God. Or at least your own Protestant interpretation of it.
Gene, where does the Bible say that it alone is sufficient? in fact it says we should hold fast to tradition. The Bible itself was canonized by the Catholic Church.
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The Catholic Church wants to make a big deal out of all members needing to follow all doctrine. Funny thing however; about 30% of Catholics vote for the liberal/Democrat side of the political aisle. As long as the checks keep coming in they don’t care. And they also prefer to not have questions come in regarding why the church for the most part, swept molestation issues under the rug. Wow, this is getting me hungry for a whole box of communion wafers!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Hey Scooter, Penn State abuse scandal had nothing to do with the Church. Guess you don’t really care about kids.
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The Penn State abuse was a result of athletics becoming a religion.
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I get it. You’re trying to be cute by implying that the Catholic Church has never dealt with sexual abuse and try to direct attention elsewhere. So tell us- do you have the job of holding the rug up, or the job of sweeping?
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Atheism is a religion too.
Scooter, you are the one who bought it up to distract us. But the “priest” mentioned in the article had some serious questions raised about his relationships with children. Why do you support him and then bash the Catholic Church for cutting him loose?
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I support him? Really? That’s mews to me. I never said any such thing.
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typo on “news”. Suppose that you’re now going to accuse me of being a cat.
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The Kitty Conspiracy continues.
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Jake — you will give me a hernia from laughing!
If atheism is a religion, then virginity is sex position!
(Hint: I don’t mean the missionary position!)
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It is a religion. On every religious story you post and attempt to evangelize.
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Scooter when did the Catholic church start demanding political affiliation as a condition of membership?
Also, in addition to 30% of Catholics who vote Dem., a large percentage of American Catholics practice artificial birth control and routinely thumb their nose at Rome.
I would be careful about describing the Catholic church in America as homogenous. You would be proven wrong.
Also, the largest growing segment of the Catholic church in America does not speak English as its first language.
Those aren’t communion wafers my friend, they are tortilla shells.
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Everyone is an Atheist. Some of us just take it one God further.
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That’s a cute saying. Non-nonsensical, but cute.
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Non-nonsensical?
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I remember when he was a priest at Sacred Heart. His explanation of what happened is short of a few details. He isn’t missed … that is for sure.
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I do find it interesting that his defenders seem to overlook the implications of his questionable activities with boys. Yet turn around and bash the Church that he left. I guess if you really hate the Catholic Church then they can ignore possible abuse when it suits them.
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Hating the Catholic Church and pointing out the lack of accountability in sex abuse scandals are two entirely different things. The lack of accountability was why I left the church in the first place. I’m now with a church that actually “walks the walk” when it comes to Christianity.
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Name your denomination and I will find scandals that involve it. Protestant churches are not immune to abuse. In this case the priest was dismissed and you support him despite questions about his relationships with children. It seems that you have a double standard. I was a Protestant who became Catholic, so I know whereof I speak.
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Jake- yes no one is perfect, but no denomination can compare with the Catholic Church, in its failures.
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Jake: I left the Catholic Church because of their misrepresentation of Christ and what he represents. And also the funeral services that didn’t not allow eulogies or personal reflections on the deceased.
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Oh, how about the People’s Temple and their mass suicide? You are very selective in your outrage. Let me clue you in on a secret. Everybody sins and that includes those in your church. Funeral services are to be focused, like all worship, on God. We don’t apologize for that.
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People Temple? Are you kidding? Yes, a terrible tragedy. But the Catholic Church’s sex abuse scandals were widespread across the globe. And for years, they were covered up. Nice. You’re inability to admit this is quite hilarious. Is the world flat, Jake?
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Yet child abuse happens in every Protestant church. Google can teach you that easily. So that must mean they are false, right? That would include your denomination. We know the world is not flat, after all Christopher Columbus knew it when he set out on his voyage. He was Catholic. In fact even pagans knew it in ancient times. Protestants tend to be a bit more resistant about such things. They believe the world is 6000 years old.
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Jake, at least if that abuse happens in a protestant church the pastor gets fired, can never be rehired! Catholics just move their priests around to a new spot.
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Eldred, it happens all the time in Protestant churches. I used to be a Protestant. Google is available and you can find examples in less then 10 seconds.
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This really isn’t all that new. There was the French priest who wanted to return to the pre-Vatican II doctrines. And the the Black priest in Chicago who established a charismatic Catholic parish. And of course, there was Martin Luther.
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Why I respect the Church of Jesus Chrsit Latter Day Saints. They at least practice their beliefs instead of paying lip service when it suits them, unlike Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, et al. Religion is about the same as alcoholism. Both great excuses not to deal with reality. How many 1000′s of Iraq citzens died in Bush II’s religious wars?
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I think you’ll find that LDS members also smoke, drink, divorce. On paper their doctrines look great. What their adherents do does not always reflect them.
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great, I remember the thousands of Americans, and Christians, who died at the hands of Muslims. As for the LDS church, weren’t they once polygamists and then dropped it at the behest of the government? I guess they didn’t have the courage of their convictions.
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So here’s what will happen. Scientists will eventually discover homosexuality is genetic, and much like with Galileo, the Catholic Church will recognize it in 400 years.
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What if pedophilia was found to be genetic? Will you recognize it? Morality is not reducible to genetics. Being genetically inclined to do something does not make the action right.
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No, but what it does seem to suggest is that if you believe God made you, you are what you are thanks to him.
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The difference here is one group is comprised of consenting adults. The other prey’s on the weak. But why let logic get in the way.
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The logic was that if you are born a certain way then it is morally okay. I refuted that “logic.”
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Actually, you didn’t. You are stuck with a religion that professes a psychotically obsessive-compulsive deity who knows everyone’s actions, words, thoughts, and even dreams, and writes them down in a book for future reference. Part of this construct is the “God’s Will” rationalization. It works well when people can’t come up with an explanation. So, spina bifida, Down’s Syndrome, mine cave-ins, plane crashes all fall under this rubric. Similarly, God must have wanted homosexuals and pedophiles. Don’t forget the Bible verse: “it is he that hath made us and we are his…”
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Once again you forget original sin and its effects. But you are stuck with a religion that says that if you are born a certain way then it must be okay. Pedophiles will love your logic. Despite our problems we at least can say it is wrong and is a sin. You can’t, at least not honestly.
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The logic is derived from your religion: your god created everything…including sin. That he then expects perfection underscores his true nature.
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God did not create sin. Sin is something good that has been twisted. It has no independent existence since existence itself is a good. Do you honestly think that we have been around 2000 years and haven’t gotten around to dealing with that question?
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Gene, but we also believe in the effects of original sin.
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Original Sin is an invention of Augustine who couldn’t understand why the Vandals were making chutney out of God’s people.
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Original sin is easy to prove. Read the front page of the paper. It is “genetic.”
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Anyone who can say “Original Sin” and “Loving God” in the same breath needs counseling. As one person once said, it’s a “devastating package deal” whereby all are guilty due to act of others. To buy into that you’d also have to believe you and your relatives should be doing prison time if your great-grandfather robbed a bank.
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Original sin is passed on as part of human nature. Don’t you believe in the science of genetics lol? It is you who argue that homosexuality is genetic and therefore okay morally. Once again that slippery slope justifies many horrors.
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So, sin is genetic?
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Original sin is not an act. It is a condition we are born with as human beings. Look, you obviously don’t understand Christian theology. Why not forgo commenting on it until you do.
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Original Sin is the doctrine that we all are stained by the act of Adam and Eve disobeying God. If you don’t know that, perhaps you should have been instructed by a different priest. And you tell me not to comment.
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Original sin is inherited. Actual sin is an immoral act. You really don’t know our vocabulary.
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Interesting article. I knew an Episcopalian minister who told me that there were a lot of former Catholic priests who often decided they wanted to be able to have families who became Eiscopalian ministers so they could do both. It’s interesting that there’s finally a stronger break off group of Catholics in America who is rejecting the old guys from Rome with their out dated ways. I haven’t considered myself a Catholic (Or any affiliation to any religion) for decades, but I’ve read time and again how in many parts of the US Catholic churches have shut down because of a lack of Catholics. Maybe an American Catholic system will be the very thing to save the religion in this country.
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Not just the US churches. The big Gothic cathedrals in Spain sit empty except for a few widows and tourists.
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Most Catholics Tundra simply sit in the pews on Sunday and go about their business on Monday. This is not true only of Catholics by any stretch of the imagination. Every “Christian” denomination or tradition has the same problem.
American Catholics use birth control at levels approaching the general population (white Catholics use birth control at the same level as the population as a whole, it is Hispanic Catholics that still lag behind). The divorce rate among Catholics is identical to the general population. The teenage pregnancy rate is higher in certain areas (southwest) than the general population and identical to the general population in all other areas.
Any of these stats could very easily fit any denomination. American Catholics do not break off as much as ignore church teaching.
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I was discussing the birth control issue with a young woman who was worried she might be pregnant. I asked her how come she did not use birth control and she said the Church forbad it.
When I respectfully and professionally reminded her that the church also forbad premarital sex she just smiled and shrugged.
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A good Catholic doesn’t ignore Church teaching. We call it “sin.” We can see its effects in the culture of death. I wish though that more atheists would disobey their beliefs and practice a little tolerance at Christmas time.
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Latin Americans are also fleeing the Catholic Church for the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Evangelicals. And why not? For centuries the Church supported the wealthy aristocracy against the massive number of poor…telling them God wants you to be poor. Mainly because the Church hierarchy was also from the aristocracy. A lot also has to do with birth control.
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I feel whoever leads a church congregation should at least be married.
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Judaism agrees with you. You have to be married in order to be a rabbi.
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I never hear much about Judaism here, good to know that, Most non catholic churches highly recommend marriage as well. I prefer a married/ widowed/ widower pastor in my church myself. There are some great women pastors out there.
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The pastor at my uncle’s funeral a week or so ago was a woman. After the funeral I mentioned to my mother how well the woman did with the service. My mother tsked and said she much preferred a male minister. I was a little stunned since she has five girls and no boys. But this is the same woman who told me waitressing was good enough for her so it was good enough for me to when I told her I was going to college.
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Neither Jesus nor Paul were married. So I guess you don’t prefer them?
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Some evidence Paul wasn’t. None whatsoever that Jesus wasn’t.
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So then why is the Episcopal church the fastest declining and dying church in the nation? Catholicism is growing at over 10 million a year world wide, not including births. I guess ordaining women and gays doesn’t really work then does it?
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FN commented that in a debate like this it would be helpful to define terms like “secular.” Well, secular basically means “separate from religion.”
The COTUS essentially defines the USA as a secular democratic republic. What folks like jake don’t seem to appreciate is that secular government is fundamentally American. Moreover, if folks want to be REALLY unAmerican, they will combine their disdain for all things secular with efforts to recognize foreign potentates over the US government.
I’ll leave it to others to comment on whether those points are relevant to this thread.
Season’s greetings to all readers — pagans and religious alike!
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“Secular” is derived from the Latin “saecula” (“centuries”); i.e., that which has to do with this life.
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I am comfortable with both you and Gene’s definitions. What I was taking umbrage to above was the characterization that secular humanists are out killing Christians for sport and profit. It is a great Fox News soundbite, but much like the “the only people who voted for Obama are those that want a handout,” advertising campaign: largely devoid of facts.
Christians indeed are being killed in the world. Just not very systematically and definitely not in this country. With the exception of Hitler, systematic wholesale death is usually a political exercise (Pol Pot in Cambodia, Stalin in Russia, Serbs and Croats in the Balkins). Religion might be the excuse, but it is not the reason for being.
Overheated rhetoric is simply an indication of poor critical thinking skills. We have a lot of that on here occasionally.
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Where does the COTUS say secular? That aside, secularists misuse the term to justify the oppression of religious believers.
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Jake — relax and take a breath. Nobody is going to turn lions loose on you!
Enjoy your Christmas just like I’m going to enjoy the solstice season.
Everybody — Happy Holidays!
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No, it’s Merry Christmas. Jesus appreciates your worship justasec.
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Atheist, Muslim, Christian, Jew…I’m asking everyone to capture the Christmas spirit. Watch the following youtube video. Then tell me this is not the season to give it a rest. Please, folks, I’m begging. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p05E_ohaQGk
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