Local view: Subtle racism can hurt more
December 8, 2012 at 6:00 pm in Duluth News Tribune
An effigy of the president hung with a noose, a blackface Halloween costume, and blackface make-up antics preserved and shared through social media: these are the kind of things that are easy to identify as racism. They are overt, public and clearly cross the line. In the study of racism, they are considered macro-aggressions.
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“Undoing our collective socialization is long-term work, but it is work we can do together.” Bingo. When minority groups and their “leaders” decide to stop instilling a sense of victimhood in people from the day they’re born, maybe things will change. But then without victims, there’s no need for superheroes to swoop in and save them, is there? And then somebody’s out of a job. I’m reminded of a Seinfeld episode where Uncle Leo insists the cook at a diner is an anti-Semite because Leo’s hamburger was overcooked. “They don’t just do that,” he tells Jerry.
It goes both ways. It’s bias just the same to keep insisting ad nauseum that I discriminate against anybody based on their race (or anything else) when that’s not the case. I don’t do that and I don’t know anybody who does. I’m sorry if your feelings get hurt once in a while, and I can’t change how you choose to characterize every perceived slight thrown your way, but welcome to the real world. You’re hardly alone.
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Well said Dan, it ain’t going to change over night. It seems these “incidents” have become much more prevalent since the racist unfair campaign was implemented.
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I wonder if Mr. Skwira-Brown gets bored trying to spin normal everyday events into unconscious racism. It doesn’t appear so, but it has to be exhausting.
As for Fastone’s rambling incoherent screed: I have never seen so much conjecture, rhetoric, stereotypes and suppositions in one place and time. The series of cute anecdotes you managed to cram into your laughably dull post clearly illustrate your affinity for emotive storytelling over reasoned logic.
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I love everyone, I think everyone’s view is absolutely spot on, I don’t disagree with anyone, if I do disagree my comment is automatically censored. So bravo, everyone is right, winner, I think you are right on on this one, now that I’ve said that, I’m sure this won’t be posted.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Welcome to the club. I’ve actually been banned for posting conservative viewpoints on this board. Forum Communications does not believe in freedom of speech.
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Freedom of speech does not apply to posting on a website. It always surprises me that so many people don’t understand the 1st amendment.
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You can’t get banned from Areavoices for expressing conservative opinions, as you can see by looking at some of the comment threads that are currently up.
You can get banned from Areavoices for repeatedly breaking the three rules that are listed each and every time you post.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You censor comments all the time that have nothing to do with personal attacks, are not vulgar, and are not harassing or joking about tragedies. Don’t feed us that bologna.
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Comments are only removed if they do not follow the three rules. I see that you have forgotten to mention the entire first rule in your post–”Keep it civil and stay on topic.” This rule is just as important as the others.
If you have any questions about why something has been removed, you can always ask me via email (klucin@jamestownsun.com), the Areavoices messaging system or even via the telephone (701-952-8453) if you prefer.
However, we had best follow our own rules here, and get back on topic, which is racism. Thank you for your feedback!
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Exactly, Randall, which is why I said “Forum Communications does not believe in the freedom of speech”. I never said websites had to abide by the first amendment. There are plenty that don’t. But there are also sites that do. Please read and understand my comment before replying.
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I’ve had plenty of comments flagged for moderation or removed too. One from this very thread, as a matter of fact. There’s no political agenda going on with the censorship. The rules are easy to understand, even if sometimes they’re difficult to follow.
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We are all racist in one way or another. To say otherwise is just lying to yourself.
To expand on that; racism does not always equate to hate and racism is an innate behavior.
As we grew and evolved, we were required to be wary of those that were different from us. People from a different race brought trouble more often than it brought good tidings. The Spanish did not bring happy times to South America, the Brits did not bring happy times to Australia, the Americans did not bring happy times to Africa. We have spent the entire span of our existence being taught to be wary of those that look different from us.
Sports are a prime example. We have one group of people dressed in a particular color battling against another group dressed in a particular color. Anyone see the parallel here? Anyone notice how the vitriol between Viking and Packer fans can escalate just like between races?
We have to realize that we are always going to be racist in one way or another. Rather than try to hide it, embrace it and see it for what it is… Simply a defense mechanism. Those of us who are unable to look past that fact get stuck behind that hurdle and end up doing stupid things purely out of fear.
That is right, racism is nothing more than Fear.
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Dorkus, I don’t agree that “We are ALL racist one way or another.” Some human beings actually are not racist, nor are they fearful of anyone other than because of hostile/abusive behavior. It’s true that mostly normal to humans; is that we are mostly fearful of the unknown and it’s possible consequence….usually learning more about it takes the fear away. I’m not sold on “racism is nothing more than fear.” I do believe that any aggressive behavior and “public acts” toward anyone is bullying, more about the bully’s own issue’s and/or ignorance, moral values and manners. No one has the right to bully another.
From my own observations and experiences…I have noticed that no one is born “a racist”…it’s a learned behavior or attitude…and can be “unlearned” with education.
Babies, toddlers and most elementary age children are not in any way racist…no matter what race (country of origin or skin color), they are all “just kids.” If for example you pose a question to a child, (mostly under the age of 10), what’s different between them and their friend? They will almost always first look at you weird (why would you ask? is there SUPPOSED to be something different?), then just casually say “nothing”… “we’re kids”. Some will say their gender is different. The changes happen to these innocent’s by their observations, from many sources in their growing up environment….thus learned behavior.
December 8, 1980…John Lennon was killed…”All we are saying, is give PEACE a chance.” To the entire human race! We are all worthy and of value. Apparently we have not come very far in just these 32 years, have we?
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I should clarify that by saying that “everybody is a little racist”, I don’t mean that everybody hates someone based on their skin color. What I mean is that if we take learned behavior out of the equation, we would still be wary of someone who is different from us. So as a child if we were to see someone different from us we would be wary, but we will not develop hatred unless we are taught it.
So essentially I am agreeing with what you are saying, with one caveat.
The kids you mention spent much of their time in that very same classroom with the kid who is a different color. To them, seeing this kid every day is not “Different”, it is the norm for them as it is the same as it has been since that class started. They have been desensitized, for lack of a better term.
But if you were to take a kid from a different race, stick him into that classroom for the first time that day and ask the kids the same question; I bet you the answer will be much different.
Much like any other instinct, the feeling is incomplete without explanation. A cat or a dog knows to scratch the ground after doing their business, but if they were weaned too early they tend to do it wrong because they never learned the right way.
You say that you are not sold on “Racism is nothing more than fear.”. Oddly you seem to reinforce my statement in your previous sentence… To pharaphrase: We fear the unknown, and learning about the unknown takes the fear away. Then you go on to say that Racism “can be ‘unlearned’ with education.” Sounds like you are making my argument for me
Society reinforces racism, so do stupid people. I am even guilty of succumbing to some stereotypical assumptions based on another race from time to time. But rather than chastising myself for the behavior I look at it as a learning experience.
I know that we are all equals on this planet, none of us are special… Even though we love to think so.
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Fastone believes in the freedom of speech. A little too much. Seldom have I seen so little said with so many words.
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Winner: We have all known individuals who talk just to hear themselves talk. Nobody listens to their ramblings but those poor individuals seem to be under the impression that if they talk enough eventually they will say something worth listening to, unfortunately should that ever happen virtually everybody has tuned the incoherent individual out by that time. Just ignore their verbose ramblings and maybe at some point the individual will learn to formulate their thoughts better so they can be more concise in their talking.
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If I said GWB was an idiot I am a hero, If I say BHO is an idiot I am a racist, dang now I am confused
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Now what is your point? Stay on subject!
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My point is that you can say a bad thing about one person, and you’ll get a certain reaction. But if you say the same thing about a different person, you’ll often get a completely different reaction.
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Again double standards for results. I seen no protest when former President GWB was hung in effigy nor former vice presidential candidate SP, but now it is headline front page news effigies of BHO have been hung. Would it still have made news if a firing squad have been used?
We will have unrest as long as we have divide. So if individuals want to be looked at as other than Americans and must hang an ethnicity in front of American society will always treat them as such.
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Vune— “An effigy of the president hung with a noose, a blackface Halloween costume, and blackface make-up antics preserved and shared through social media: these are the kind of things that are easy to identify as racism”.
Best you go back and read story…
“a city with a history of lynching black people” 90 years ago, one known time makes Duluth the murder capital sure seems to be stretching it.
“White people in this country have never been lynched, hung, or otherwise persecuted just for the color of their skin”. So your telling me skin color is the only factor in racism?
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Vune, not my words, yours. But I will say it is the event that comes to the forefront when lynchings are mentioned of Duluth’s past. Seems all want to forget about the Finlander (that is a person of Finnish ancestry) hung in Lester Park and body not recovered for days, poor Olli. So tell me the great scholar, what is the difference between lynchings. I wait with bated interest.
” That’s the sickest argument I’ve ever seen you make”. Oh come now, you can do better than that.
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You didn’t use those words exactly, but that was the argument you were making. And let’s not pretend that I’m the only one paraphrasing, unless you’re going to point out where I used the words “murder capital.”
I have no desire to “do better than that.” I’m being honest with you. What you just said is disgusting.
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Vune, you have no merit in conversation.
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Bob~ So you feel there’s not much difference in lynchings between Ollie who hung himself and committed suicide and almost the whole male population of 10,000 in 1920 storming the jail, beating up the Police and lynching three innocent black men?
I think most people can easily see the difference, what I’ve seen is that usually the Ollie argument is used by those bent on defending white racism..
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I hate to take Bob’s side after the hateful things he’s been saying, but Olli most certainly did not hang himself. He was harassed, tarred & feathered, and then hung for his refusal to fight in World War 1. They were lynched at different times by different people for different reasons, and both are tragedies.
But this thread isn’t about anti-war activists. It’s about racism.
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Vune- I don’t have the current link but I’ve looked this up before because keeps being posted by haters. Ollie was harassed and was tarred and featherd but the official investigation said he hung himself out of embarassment.
Even if not true, he wasn’t lynched because of racism and is apple and orange argument by haters trying to dismiss racism and use as red herring.
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Of course it’s a red herring. And now we’ve helped Bob change this from a conversation about racism into a debate over whether or not Olli hanged himself.
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Fastone, reports have indicated Olli was lynched, no proof exists he committed suicide (poorly investigated).
I was not there, maybe you were. But no one would care as he was just a Finlander right?
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Bob-
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/projects/2001/06/lynching/olli.shtml
“Duluth authorities declared the death a suicide. They said Kinkkonen was humiliated by the tarring, and hanged himself.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
In all this time there’s never been proof that he was lynched, nonbody ever confessed involved, no deathbed confessions. No proof he was lynched whatsoever. Those involved even wrote letter to Tribune and took full credit for the abduction and tar and feathering but never mentioned any lynching at all.
He was a socialist and he was adamently against our involvement in war which is why was tarred and feathered. Wrong and despicable but it wasn’t because of his skin color and he was innocent and there’s no proof he was lynched. You can’t prove he was and you also can’t prove that there weren’t in fact even Finns involved that tarred and feathered him but it is proven that this had not one single thing to with racism.
There’s absolutely no correlation whatsoever to the two events but haters keep trying to claim there is and use as whitewash red herring but it doesn’t work except to make the poster look like bending over backwards to try to dismiss the racist lynching of three innocent black men.
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Not to jump into the middle of this… but who in their right mind would send a letter to the newspaper and admit to lynching the guy?
In a situation such as this, it is entirely possible that he was lynched and it was subsequently covered up and ruled a suicide. Nobody knows the truth. So both of your arguments are based on shaky information.
Regardless, comparing a single lynching of a white man to the lynchings of countless black men to try to support your argument is just poor reasoning.
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fastone, I should know better than respond to anything you publish and this will end up in multiple full pages of useless drivel. “but haters keep trying to claim” does this mean you are accusing me of being a hate monger now..? As you rebuttal surely lacks proof!
Maybe you should read a little history of the Finish population here in Northeastern MN.
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Dorkus~ You posted a lot of conjecture. I just know the fact is that a group did take responsibility for it and that’s documented. I know is fact that it was ruled a suicide after official investigation and that was official ruling on it. I know that despite the passage of almost 100 years that there’s not a shred of proof that he was lynched by the mob. Which does not support at all the ability to try to dismiss wasn’t suicide with conjecture, it does the complet opposite IMHO if we’re going to just offer personal suppositions.
It is also a fact that even if you dispute the above facts with conjecture to deny the circumstances of his hanging, that it is still an undisputable fact that it wasn’t because of color of skin or that he was selected purely at random because color of skin. It has nothing to do racism and nothing to do with lynching of three innocent black men.
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Bob~” As you rebuttal surely lacks proof!”
Do you need glasses? Do you have trouble with memory retention?
You are one that posted and promoted trying to use Ollie as whitewash on lynchings by claiming he was lynched and use to dismiss lynching of three blacks saying happened to white but nobody discusses. I did prove by providing a link supporting my statement, you haven’t and cannot prove that he was lynched..get your eyes and memory tested…
I
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fastone, you never answered my question. (“but haters keep trying to claim” does this mean you are accusing me of being a hate monger now)..?
vune, you also never answered my question, (So your telling me skin color is the only factor in racism?)
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The answer to that question is obviously “no.” What I told you was:
“White people in this country have never been lynched, hung, or otherwise persecuted just for the color of their skin. Black people have. Repeatedly. So when some group anonymously hangs an effigy of our first black president in a city with a history of lynching black people, it’s received differently than when someone burns an effigy of Bush at an anti-war protest.”
And I’ll add that white people in Duluth have never faced the micro-aggression or systemic bias that’s described in this article. Black people in Duluth face it every day.
But no, that doesn’t offend you. You’re offended that you have to hear about it.
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vune, no it does not offend me in any form. In reality nothing offends me least of all your feeling toward me as I have grown cold in my old age to your likes. I never knew until the likes of you puritans came to expound onto society that being born white made me a racist, and my ideology is full of hate as your fellow fastone claim. I will be sure to explain this to my Native wife tonight.
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You do that. Make sure you show her the article, and all the wonderful things you’ve been saying here. Maybe you can have a conversation about how having a native american wife excuses you from all criticism.
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vune, she is well aware of this conversation and laughs at your hypocrisy.
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Uh huh. I can just picture it.
“Hey Bob! Didja tell him I laugh at his hypocrisy?!”
“Yes, dear.”
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vune, these are the truest words you have expressed in your whole oration. The rest of you dogmatism views are just that.
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Isnt calling white people racist because a few people did some ignorant things the same as calling all black people criminals because a few have been in the paper recently? Both are stupid conclusions, for the ignorant who are now confused.
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Katie, honestly what is beating it to death accomplishing? What is overreacting to every perceived racist event accomplishing? Do you think you are going to change a racists mind? It’s along the lines of convincing someone to change their religion, or convince someone against homosexuality that it’s acceptable. Is racism ok, no, do we need to acknowledge it, yes, but this is getting ridiculous, to the point I think it is creating even more animosity. And creating a racist campaign, one that segregates and ostracizes one group, now whites, won’t help one bit. It’s going to take time, high schoolers now could give two craps about people’s color or sexual preference, it’s gong to take a generation or two. Quit trying to fix something that took hundreds of years to create over night, it’s creating more problems.
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It is also going to require a change in attitudes. To cry “racist” at every slight has really worn out the race card to the point where most consider it a joke now. Anti-black and anti-native racist attitudes are learned from the home environment just as is the racist anti-white attitude being fed to the young by ignorant elders. Hopefully our young will get past the prejudices of their elders and be more accepting of all. And yes, it will probably take a couple of generations. Divisive campaigns as is the current “Hard to see reacism” fiasco will only accentuate and prolong the divide and prevent the healing this country needs so badly.
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Bill Cosby speaks bluntly about black people and education
Education & SchoolsAugust 19, 2009
By: Donna Gundle-Krieg
Bill Cosby spoke about his feelings regarding black people and education in his recent rant called We Cannot Blame the White People Any Longer.
Cosby is probably the only person who could get away with talking the way he does because he is well respected among people of all races.
“People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we’ve got these knuckleheads walking around,” he says.
“They’re standing on the corner and they can’t speak English. I can’t even talk the way these people talk….You can’t be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth. In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living.”
Cosby is especially upset that we have millionaire football players who cannot read or write two paragraphs.
“We, as black folks, have to do a better job,” he stated. “We have to start holding each other to a higher standard.”
He believes that “Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person’s problem. We have got to take the neighborhood back.”
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Now let me state that I do think racism is a problem in our society. We have lots of issues..discrimination for race,gender,age,sexual orientation,income level (both low and high),religion….you name it and we have it. The DNT has been posting 2-3 articles or opinion pieces each week on racism. Yes, we know from these articles and real life that the white race has not behaved the way we should on race issues. I do agree with the basic idea that we need to do better. Could we maybe balance the reporting to show how minority groups can help themselves? After all they have quite a bit of control over their own destiny. For that matter we need to look at all groups and try to improve the lives of all. I think as Bill points out “We Cannot Blame the White People Any Longer”. We really won’t make progress unless we stop the blame game.
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I agree with you…I’m not just talking about the article by Skwira-Brown. Thought the article brought up some good points. I’m talking about the constant drum beating by the DNT. Yes…you had Obama hung from a billboard and a couple people doing “blackface”. Thats 3 people who used poor judgement. I’m just saying maybe we need more of a balance in our newspaper reporting.
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We don’t know who hung Obama up….was it supposed to be a racist statement or a political one? Probably both…The blackface incidents were done in poor taste by 18-22 year old students. Not that the age should give them an excuse. A few years ago we had bad behavior by UMD students putting up signs before school started. The UMD students were offering “free breast exams” for women. Not a great statement to make and not funny to those who have had cancer. Does that incident make all UMD students guilty by association? All I’m saying is you shouldn’t blame the white race for all of the issues minorities face in society. Yes, we need to be aware of our actions no matter how small. Minorities have more control in the ability to make progress than the handful of idiots do in by turning back progress.
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And who is to say it wasn’t done by blacks or by members of the anti-white campaign just to stir things up? Or to incite an incident? To, without proof, blame white folks for doing the effigy is a racist act in itself. I suggest we find the culprit(s) and then lodge blame against them where the blame belongs rather than being racist and accusing the entire white population of Duluth of being racist. The act committed by one or a handfull of idi*ts should not be allowed to set back the progress of an entire community. There will always be idi*ts.
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We don’t know who hung Obama up….was it supposed to be a racist statement or a political one? Probably both…The blackface incidents were done in poor taste by 18-22 year old students. Not that the age should give them an excuse. A few years ago we had bad behavior by UMD students putting up signs before school started. The UMD students were offering “free breast exams” for women. Not a great statement to make and not funny to those who have had cancer. Does that incident make all UMD students guilty by association? All I’m saying is you shouldn’t blame the white race for all of the issues minorities face in society. Yes, we need to be aware of our actions no matter how small. Minorities have more control in the ability to make progress than the handful of id*i*ot*s do in by turning back progress.
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Above comment was to Vune
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Nobody is blaming all white people “for all of the issues minorities face in society.” If that’s what you’re trying to say, then I don’t think you understand the articles that you’re complaining about.
You’re criticizing the blame game, but you’re playing it yourself. Your first thread says that blacks need to accept more of the blame. How are black people at all responsible for the racism problem in Duluth?
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By using the race card as a crutch to explain why things don’t go the way they think things should have gone instead of looking in the mirror doing some honest self-assessment.
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I’d love to hear how you think “honest self assessment” is going to have any affect on the micro-aggression & systemic bias described in this article.
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If a person would rather sit at home and play video games or spend their time playing basketball INSTEAD of being in school getting an education, yes that should be part of the self-assessment. If a person gets a job and exhibits contempt or hatred for their co-workers, the customers or the company, that could adversly affect their continued employment there so yes that too should be part of the self-assessment. If a person would prefer to spend their income, whether ligit or illegal on drugs then that too should be part of the self-assessment. If a person feels that going to jail is a “right of passage” or that gang membership should be part of their life that too should be part of the self-assessment. Did you notice that all of these points apply to a person of any skin color? If done honestly, the self-assessment process is color blind and can apply to a person of any race, color creed etc.
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You didn’t address a single example of the micro aggression or systemic bias described in this article. All you’re doing is throwing out tired old stereotypes.
Did you even read the article?
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I don’t think that I stated “blacks need to accept more of the blame”. And no….they are not responsible for racism. They are in large part responsible for the direction they want to go. How do we improve graduation rates and promote the value of education within the minority groups? It goes both ways….whites and minorities need to stop blaming each other for society’s problems. Whites do need to be reminded about racism. But just like wife that nags her husband….after a while the message falls on deaf ears. I expect the DNT will keep running multiple weekly articles on the subject till people tune out.
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My comment was to Vune…
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You didn’t use those words specifically, but that’s the message you’re sending. Particularly with that article about Bill Cosby.
I think your analogy is perfect. Instead of listening to his wife, the husband just learns to ignore her complaints. That’s not a problem with the wife. It’s a problem with the husband.
The husband needs to stop making excuses, and listen to what his wife is saying. She’s talking about some very specific problems, and she needs his help to fix them.
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My apologies to Kevin Skwira-Brown. I misread your name, and I referred to you as “she” several times in this thread.
Whoops.
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