by Grand Forks Herald
December 3, 2012 at 6:37 pm in Grand Forks Herald
North Dakota University System officials are requesting an additional $84 million of state funding for the next two years. Continue Reading
Tags: hamid shirvani, Higher Education, NDSU, North Dakota, North Dakota Legislature, North Dakota University System, UND, updates 25 Comments »
5.5 million dollars to cover security forces at schools? Do we need metal detectors at the univeristy? UND has been given enough money to cover up sexual assults over years at this point they should be able to do more with less.
This state has too many schools time to start closing a few and lets start with the one that was giving away degrees.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 43 20
Exactly right. Lock the doors on the Charmin Diploma Mill.
Eliminate athletic scholarships, put the money into academics instead.
Hot debate. What do you think? 31 22
Allowing CC permit holders to carry on campus would make me feel safer than hiring more security officers and it would cost a lot less.
Hot debate. What do you think? 26 20
None, I couldn’t agree with you more. We have far too many schools for a state this size.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 24 5
There are too many schools due to the fact, as has been said many times before, in the minds of legislators they don’t exist to educate, but for their economic impact on the communities.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 19 1
whit the cost of tuition now, why do they need state money? they should be able to operate on the money they bring in.
There goes property tax relief!
Hot debate. What do you think? 28 26
Higher education is an investment, not a pay as you go proposition.
Like or Dislike: 2 2
I don’t think that bigger & better brick & mortar buildings necessarily lead to higher academic achievement for students and economic pay-back for taxpayers. But, if the buildings will be needed within my lifetime, now’s the time to do it while we have a surplus, interest rates are low, and people need work.
The increase in non-teaching staff might be a tougher sell. Once the surplus is gone, will students simply absorb the increased labor costs through tuition? Of course, as a student, I’d most like to see the legislature suppress tuition increases. According to the report linked below, total yearly student costs have risen $7000, or 64.2%, in the past 10 years.
Like or Dislike: 15 11
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There is no surplus, there is only over taxation of those of us in the private sector. This money will just wind up in the fat pockets of Shirvani and his fellow educrats!
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 23 33
“There is no surplus, there is only over taxation of those of us in the private sector.”
The Oil Industry is not taxed nearly enough. The oil industry should pay EVERY CENT of infrastructure improvements and other expenses needed due to their business.
Hot debate. What do you think? 31 19
“This money will just wind up in the fat pockets of Shirvani and his fellow educrats!”
I have no idea how that could happen.
Hot debate. What do you think? 20 13
Earlier this week the Herald expressed the opinion that a new medical school building should be built at a cost of 125 million. My question is whether anyone has done the analysis to determine whether it would be cost effective close the medical school and provide incentives to out of state physicians to locate in North Dakota. Sixty percent (60%) of medical school students and residents leave North Dakota, meaning a lot of dollars are going to training physicians that will not be staying in North Dakota. The graduating class size is approximately 55 students each year. The medical school receives funding in the amount of approximately 26 million dollars. Not even counting the 125 million dollar cost of a new building, North Dakota could close its medical school and offer $520,000 “signing” bonuses to 50 doctors per year using just the annual operating budget and still double the current number that stay in North Dakota each year. With those dollars North Dakota could probably implement a program to pay back all of the physician’s student loans in exchange for an agreement to practice within North Dakota for x number of years. North Dakota already does this on a smaller scale in rural areas of the state. If only 22 students are staying in North Dakota each year, each one of those students receives the funding equivalent of over $1,000,000 over their four years of medical school. I am not suggesting the medical school be closed, but someone should at least do the analysis.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 23 7
ND medical school was a bad joke until Clifford. Even now it suffers from lack of residencies. That is why the students leave. If you want to stay you have two choices: family practice and surgery. Those specialties are great, but what happens when you need a neurologist, or a urologist, or a radiologist to read the xray.
Your sign on bonus would work for the first year or two, but after their contract is up they would be gone. Just ask Indian Health Service how hard it is to attract people to remote places. They will pay off your students loans. The trouble is as soon as the loans are paid off the doctors are gone.
I used to roll on the ground and was downright rude to a few patients who came to my office complaining they wanted to see an “American” doctor. When I explained their doctor with the Indian or Middle Eastern sirname actually went to UCLA they got to the nitty gritty: they wanted a white doctor. At that point I threw them out and told them to drive south till they hit Sioux Falls or Omaha.
Losing some who never come back is just the cost of business. Those that do come back and stay (several of the docs I worked with went to UND, left for residency, then came back). They will be the backbone of our healthcare future.
Right now we can’t afford to lose any doctors. We need more, not less. Yes the medical school supplies other people’s doctors, but there is no way around it.
The WORST thing that could happen is require every medical student who graduates to stay in the state and do their internships here. Talk about inbreeding. Outside influences are important, especially in medicine.
ND is already phobic of change. Do nothing to make it worse.
Like or Dislike: 17 9
Flyngnurse, I agree that “losing more doctors” is not preferable. However, the numbers suggest that the medical school isn’t producing a significant number of North Dakota physicians anyway. It only graduates approximately 55 students each year, and only 40% of those stay in the state. I would have to believe that most of the forty percent, plus others, would likely return if given the monetary incentive to do so. My point is that you could offer 50 doctors approximately $520,000 bonuses and double the number coming to North Dakota for the same cost, and not have to build a new medical school. You could pay $1,000,000 signing bonus to 25 doctors and end up in the same spot we are now and still not have to build a new medical school. As you are well aware, medical facilities already entice doctors to come to North Dakota by giving them “loans” that are forgiven after five (5) or more years of service. Most of those physicians stay after that period of time. Those “loans” are significantly smaller than the amounts that could be paid if the cost of operating the medical school were diverted to that purpose. There is nothing magical about the medical school that makes students more likely to stay in North Dakota than if they’d graduated from another medical school. It used to be that virtually every doctor in North Dakota was a graduate of the UND Medical School, but that has changed significantly over the past three decades as our society has become much more mobile and medical facilities have become much more aggressive with their recruitment of physicians. As to your comment regarding foreign born physicians, the medical school haws insufficient graduates to change that dynamic.
Like or Dislike: 5 3
The way to keep more doctors in state is to have more varied residency programs. The trouble is we do not have the population to support these residencies. We simply do not have the volume they need to learn.
I agree with you that on the surface your math works, but you are missing a key point: people can make more money in a lot of places, but those places are short of doctors because no one wants to live there. My Indian Health Service or Public Health Service example come into play.
Yes we can offer 100 MD a year a one year bonus of $500,000 in return for “X” number of years of service. Unless they are from here, they probably will be gone as soon as their contract is up.
It will be a revolving door. The numbers you are talking will also only satisfy the needs of Sanford and Altru and maybe a few thrown to Williston. It does not address the critical problem which is the middle of the state. Remember, today, you can go for 100 miles and not run into an MD. A PA or a NP is the best you are going to get.
I would vote for increasing med school enrollment to the 75 maybe 100 max level and then paying people from ND (you will not get into the med school without serious local ties) to come home. They are the only ones who are likely to stay after their contracts are up.
“ND medical school was a bad joke until Clifford.”
There was no med school til Clifford. It was a prep program with an agreement the students went to the U of MN for their training. My cousin went through it in the late 60s.
Like or Dislike: 10 1
Correct. Despite the hyperintellectual impression of medicine, it is still very much a hands on sport. ND students had no place to do clinicals. That is how the family medicine residency came about. Once their was a residency program in place, the students had a place to do clinicals and the school went from being 2 years to 4.
That is why I keep mentioning the need for residency slots. In the end that determines how many MD you train in your state.
Like or Dislike: 6 1
I say go for it. Right now is the time to invest some of the money coming into the state in something useful. A new med school, new/renovated business school, and a renovated law school would be very good investments in my opinion. Having a state of the art university would only attract and produce better talent, and thus wealth. Not to mention it would be around much longer than any oil boom will be.
Hot debate. What do you think? 18 19
I agree. The med school is over-crowded and the law school is as well. I believe UND has done what they could with the old St. Mike’s hospital. It really is time for them to update. And the law school has been more than patient waiting for a new facility.
Like or Dislike: 15 3
Over the years both the law school and segments of the med school have come close to losing accreditation due to high teaching loads, low salaries, poor library facilities, and little or no publishing.
Like or Dislike: 10 2
Gene, are you serious? You know very well how the accreditation scare works. The reviewing body comes in and asks what the school needs. The school says that the faculty members are underpaid, the physical facilities are inadequate and the library is out dated. Not surprisingly the accreditation report says that the faculty is underpaid, the physical facilities are inadequate and the library is out of date. The report is then taken to the legislature and funds are extracted accordingly. I will agree that, with a few exceptions, the faculty produces almost no published works despite being provided with sabbaticals and teaching schedules that intentionally light to allow for research and writing.
There are exceptional faculty members at UND, but there are also a fair number of faculty members that make a mockery of the word “professor”. There is an institutional bias in favor of “credentials” over teaching ability and/or experience. I tend to agree with Nick Spaeth and his litigation over discrimination in law school hiring; most faculty members are threatened by people with actual experience and would hire a new graduate from an Ivy League school over someone with glowing credentials and twenty years of experience. Take a look at the members of UND’s faculty and let me know how many of the faculty members have every actually engaged in the discipline they teach; there are accounting professors who have never practiced, law school professors who have never practiced/stepped in a courtroom, sociology teachers who have never had a client etc. . . . I will concede the Medical School uses primarily practicing physicians and that some disciplines really don’t have practice per se. As for the law school, I am certain that if you gave graduating engineering students, accounting students, physics students, chemistry students and a few other majors the same bar review course taken by law school students after graduation that their pass rate would be higher than the law students.
Like or Dislike: 11 7
I stand by what I said. On more than one occasion the law school was threatened, as was the med school. Shouldn’t be a surprise, Communication did lose theirs. Under Clifford, the Business School also was on death watch, until he “borrowed” 100K from A & S to raise salaries; one of numerous examples of UND’s habit of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Like or Dislike: 12 2
Gene, after rereading my post it was way too directed at you. Your posts on higher education are obviously well informed and logically compiled (I don’t always agree, but they are worth reading). My apologize for the rant. My frustration is that as a society we seem to be spending more and more for higher education and receiving less and less. The idea that everyone needs to go to college has created a job market where you have to have a bachelor’s degree to work at Starbucks, not because you need that level of education but because there are so many people running around with unmarketable degrees that Starbucks can hire a college graduate; there are few reasons to hire a high school graduate if you get applications from people with college degrees.
Many professions have experienced credential inflation without any practical rationale for the inflation. For example, speech therapists and occupational therapists used to perform their jobs with a four year degree. Now if you don’t have a master’s degree you can’t even apply for many of those positions. While there have been treatment and technology advancements it is unlikely that the skill level has jumped to the level that it requires a master’s degree. Similarly, I am always puzzled by the requirement that the applicant have an M.B.A.; does the employer really think that someone who spent an extra year or two in college is better prepared than the person who has been working in the industry for the past two years?
We seem to be experiencing a growth in higher education simply for the sake of growth. As a result the curriculum requirements are being water down to the point that many graduate have not even learned basic critical thinking skills by the time they graduate. In the past there were no “unmarketable degrees” because employers knew that anyone who completed a degree had passed through a rigorous program regardless of the major. Every college/university now offers remedial courses for students who are not prepared for college. I question why those students were admitted in the first place. I am certain that many of those students go on to achieve great success, but those that do likely would have achieved success regardless.
No need to apologize. I’ve been in higher ed for some 40 years, and have watched as it morphed from a place of education to a business. Can’t say I’m surprised at the outcome. When revenues and sports become the priorities, some things suffer. In this case the students and the academic legitimacy. This is true across the country, not just ND. It will get far worse before it gets better.
Like or Dislike: 14 3
Never mind 84 million dollars. The NDUS should not get 84 cents until they prosecute the criminal conspirators in Dickinson, and fire those who knew it was going on, but kept their mouth shut.
Like or Dislike: 9 1
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