Tom Tracy, Jameston, N.D. letters: Pendulum has swung — and will swing again
December 1, 2012 at 11:40 pm in Grand Forks Herald
Tom Tracy of Jamestown writes about political pendulum and its swing. Continue Reading
Tom Tracy, Jameston, N.D. letters: Pendulum has swung — and will swing again
56 Comments
The election results must be god’s will, right? It can’t be wrong or bad. So get over it already.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The question I have is why this guys letter was given a talk button? Is this Tom sombody that has something to make his knowledge more learned? Or is this just another attempt for Jacobs or some other big right winger on staff to try to push the wounded rights anger in our faces as if it matters?
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Tom. You are correct, God is in control.
What I think you are overlooking is the fact He is not Republican. God is not Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or Green.
He is God. If your party’s platform happens to coincide with some of His tenets, trust me it is purely coincidental.
As for your economic assertions, I would encourage you to make an I depth study of God’s teachings regarding the economy. My guess is you will be shocked.
The Psalms & Proverbs extol the virtues of hard work & saving (exactly how large was the surplus when GWB left office after 8 years of GOP rule?) while Christ never missed an opportunity to associate with untouchables, lived in a decidedly socialist commune (they gave all that they had for the good of the believers), & on more than one occasion told his disciples that God put the rulers in power so they need to shut up, obey the magistrate & pay their taxes.
No political party in our country even comes close to representing God. To pretend otherwise is simply incorrect
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Well said.
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Tom Tracy must have skipped his civics lessons in school (perhaps he was home schooled, or went to a religious indoctrination school?).
If he had learned American history, then he would know that the USA was founded as a secular democratic republic. It’s embarrassing that so few self-proclaimed Christians know that.
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Really Jake? No doubt you will be happy to give some specific examples of the “indoctrination” coming from those nasty secular liberals?
BTW, I’m not holding my breath!
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I voted for Obama and still haven’t gotten my handout. Where do I sign up?
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http://www.whitehouse.gov
You’re welcome.
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Sure can. In the news today the teachers union had a cartoon for children to show them the evils of capitalism and how bad rich people are. It showed rich people urinating on everyone else. Real nice eh? So you can let that breath out now.
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You mean: http://politix.topix.com/homepage/3653-ca-teachers-union-takes-on-1-in-new-cartoon-vid ?
…and that’s the best you can come up with?
I’ll grant you it’s cheesy, but is it less accurate than the indoctrination on Fox? Is it actually being shown to kids in schools?
…and where’s the “secular” angle? I don’t see it!
Let’s contrast this with the religious right:
- A constant struggle to keep kids from having religion imposed on them in schools. This includes attempts to replace science in the curriculum with religious dogma.
- Military training schools so infused with coercive proselytizing that non-religious cadets are persecuted, to the point of having to resign.
- A constant struggle to prevent religion being enacted into law–usually at the expense of women and gays.
Man — it’s getting so bad that us secularists will probably ask for a national motto like E Pluribus Unum!
Imagine the indoctrination in that!
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The issue was indoctrination and you asked for an example. I gave it. Even you admit that it is reprehensible. I went to public school and never saw religion being imposed. If anything it is the opposite. For example your characterization that opposition to gay marriage is so wrong that those who think that way should be silenced. The fascism of the left is astonishing. I gave you an example and I could give you a dozen more and we both know ti would not change your off key tune.
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Tom Tracy is right on the money. It’ll be fun to see when an Obama voter inherits money from someone and finds out how little he gets and what a nice chunk Obama gets to redistribute to other parasites.
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Republicans are just as corrupt as Democrats.
Except for the names of the special-interest groups that own them, you’d be hard-pressed to find a real difference between them.
BOTH parties want more control of your life, more control of your money, more control of your body. Both parties are deep into tyranny; they have little regard for freedom.
Left/right doesn’t matter. Liberal/Conservative doesn’t matter. Democrat/Republican doesn’t matter.
Start looking at politicians on the Anarchy/Tyranny scale. They’re all crowding together at the Tyranny end. THAT’S the problem. THAT’S why nothing really changes except to get worse.
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The imagined corruption of the right legitimizes the depravity of the left. I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Before this all gets off on a reprise of the pre-election childish chanting, let me remind you that the thread is about Tracy’s assertions about God being in charge, and the USA’s supposed basis in Christian values. (At least Jake is remotely on-thread with his derisive comments about “secular liberals”).
Keeping on thread, what is most hilarious to me is the notion that secularism is undesirable or bad. Thus, I started out by noting that Tracy must have skipped (or never received) his civics education, since he obviously doesn’t understand that the USA is a SECULAR democratic republic.
In fact, it is a perfectly logical argument that our SECULAR government is at the heart of what it means to be American. Thus, it is fundamentally unAmerican to try to undermine it.
When a person learns about the history of the USA — especially about the constitution, they understand this. Perhaps that’s why the religious right seems to hate public school education so much — they are afraid that people will finally see how unAmerican their efforts to subvert the 1st amendment really are.
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Maybe you should read it again, there are a number of issues mentioned.
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It amazes me that people consider Christianity to be “bad.” Secularism has nothing to brag about I assure you. How about secularists laying off the religious for awhile? We had enough of that before the election.
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Coming right up…Just as soon as the religious right lays off trying to make everyone adhere to their beliefs. The idea that because you believe so strongly in your religion that it is above all other points of view….Sounds a bit like those radicals in the middle east….Actuall more than a bit…Exactly like it……You guys just never get it…..Stop trying to force Christianity down everyones throats and you wont get all the negative feedback you get……And stop whinning when you do….If you can’t take it, then don’t dish it…
As for looking at evil…..It’s the internal inventory where you’ll see the real evil, but if you’re so busy looking for it in others…You’ll miss the obvious evil right in your own mirror..
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Golly gee, if we are so good at forcing our faith on others then why is abortion still legal, HHS mandates till oppressive, and you are not forced to go to Church? It sounds like you just want to silence those you don’t agree with. At least we believe in freedom of speech.
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People use the term “Religions Right” as if it’s a large part of the population. A vast majority of the right are fiscally right with a platform that happens to agree with some important Church issues. I don’t have one Republican friend who thinks our side has a corner on religion, any religion. No one I know thinks God is favoring America over Italy, France, or Iraq for that matter. I think I can be a Republican and a Christian while believing that every rainstorm isn’t a planned event by God. I can believe that Timothy Mcveigh, not God, was in charge in Oklahoma City in April, 1995. The Religions Right is a very, very small part of our population. Yet, every one of us, religious or not, knows when we’re being naughty or nice.
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You are right on, but unfortunately your party leaders do not agree with this. The GOP agenda is full of items driven by the religious right including abortion, same sex marriage, school vouchers, abandonment of science ed and evolution etc, etc. etc. And that’s why they got their backsides handed to them in the election. The moderate Republican is rare in today’s GOP.
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realist: we couldn’t disagree more, as evidenced by my post. I know most Republicans are like me, probably very far to the right, but annoyed by the religious right. I absolutely know you are wrong on this, but it’s my opinion vs. yours. Oh, well.
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Who/what is the “religious right?” Here’s a link to help answer that: https://www.au.org/resources/religious-right?machine_name=religious_right_organizations&machine_name=religious_right_people
The list appears to omit the US Council of Catholic Bishops — who invested a huge effort into influencing the recent election.
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The same bishops who advocated generosity to the poor and to immigrants?
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Yes jake — and if those good bishops had spent all the dollars they spent trying to defeat Obama and gay marriage on those issues — they could have done a lot of good!
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A bit like all the atheists who spend huge amounts to get rid of any cross or 10 commandment tablet they see. Think of how much good that money could have done for the poor.
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The “religious right” is just another group that the left loves to hate.
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No smarty, the religious right is a group who wants to subvert what it means to be American. They especially want two things:
1. An end to church-state separation
2. THEIR god to be the only one that counts.
…and on the second point, that’s why it’s such a big deal for them to have god in the pledge and on the money. They don’t like E Pluribus Unum at all!
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I know many on the “religious right” and I don’t know one that has ever expressed to me a wish to end the seperation of church and state. I subscribe to Christian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. If you choose to believe otherwise that is your right. The left worships Obama. I don’t personally subscribe to that but they can if they want.
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So, all of the “many” you know:
- would be against opening a city council meeting with the lord’s prayer.
- would be against teachers leading a prayer at school
- want to remove the 10 commandments from the city park in EGF
- would be against having a nativity scene in city hall
- would be against having a crucifix in the court house
- would be against teaching creationism in schools
- would be against allowing taxpayer money for funding school vouchers for education in religious schools
- would be against taxpayer funded catholic-run hospitals refusing to offer health care coverage of contraceptives
I’m awaiting your response with interest.
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Voluntary religious observances are protected by the First Amendment. Mandated ones aren’t. Atheists like to squelch free speech that is religion related but like to otherwise force the lack thereof.
Education in religious schools is voluntary. If a person chooses to attend a religious school why shouldn’t that person be entitled to the same free education as the atheist?
The left is determined to force religious hospitals to abandon their principles by the mere fact that there is money involved. There are enough non-religious hospitals available to perform any procedure imaginable that are objectionable to religious institutions. It is no different than forcing Jewish or Muslim children in public schools to eat pork.
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Nice combo of evasion, misinformation, and ignorance.
BTW, did you see what Rick Santorum was bragging about today?
Have you ever wondered why the USA is the only world democracy that hasn’t ratified CEDAW?
Cue conspiracy theories….
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I don’t want the UN dictating United States law. The UN is an organization of American hating countries. The UN should more aptly be abolished.
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…right on cue!
And you must hate Eleanor Roosevelt for her work on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well?
LOL
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So you’ve been talking to Eleanor Roosevelt have you? It fits with your ramblings.
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would be against opening a city council meeting with the lord’s prayer. ABSOLUTELY. That would be showing favoritism towards Christianity over Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. and that is against the law.
- would be against teachers leading a prayer at school. ABSOLUTELY X 10. Besides the reasons mentioned above, schools are run locally. That means if I am an Evangelical in Salt Lake City I run the risk of my child having to listen to selected readings from the Book of Mormon or if I am in Dearborn Michigan (?Deerborne) I run the risk of my child being forced to sit quietly and listen to readings from the Quoran?
- want to remove the 10 commandments from the city park in EGF. As long as it was paid for privately let it stay. On the courthouse wall: ABSOLUTELY NOT
- would be against having a nativity scene in city hall: Christmas is now so secular you could say it has lost much of its religious meaning. The SCOTUS has ruled both ways. Let them figure it out.
- would be against having a crucifix in the court house: ABSOLUTELY. No placing hand on Bible either. Both favor Christianity over all other religions and that is not what we are allowed to do
- would be against teaching creationism in schools. Teach it next to evolution. Compare and contrast. If you do choose to do creationism you cannot stop with Christianity. You are going to have to include Muslim, Native American, and Hindu. Everyone gets equal time.
- would be against allowing taxpayer money for funding school vouchers for education in religious schools: Only where charter schools are not available. If there are charter schools then no religious schools
- would be against taxpayer funded catholic-run hospitals refusing to offer health care coverage of contraceptives: Employers decide what insurance to buy. The insurance has to follow the law. If you don’t like the law, change it.
Hope that helps
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Worship…A form of bein subservant to what you precieve as being god like…….You really for one second think those of us on the left have anything even close to that concideration towards the president? He’s a leader, and most of us have exectations that he’ll lead well, but this fantasy that we actually put a leader on a pedestal is more up the alley of the religious zealots (Better tearm anyway) They’re always looking to woriship something….
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Where exactly, which article, of the COTUS says “separation of church and state?” That has become a euphemism for oppression of church by the state.
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It’s explained — albeit in different words — in the 1st amendment and in Article XI. The intent is crystal clear if you take the trouble to read the original writings of Jefferson and Madison.
As to the oppression of church by the state under the banner of “secularism” — that’s an absurdity perpetuated by the religious right. The reality is that, if anything, government panders way too much to religion. What’s quite dismaying is that even self-proclaimed moral leaders will lie to you brazenly to try to obscure that reality.
Don’t believe that? Here’s some details: http://www.liarsforjesus.com/downloads/LFJ_FINAL.pdf
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So in other words it isn’t in the COTUS.
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The First Amendment: Congress will make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof. This means that the government cannot establish a state religion but the citizens have the right to peacefully express themselves in a religious manner whenever or wherever they please.
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Exactly correct. The examples cited above come into play when the state is seem as favoring one religion over another. For the purposes of this discussion atheism qualifies as a religion. It has a theological outlook & a political agenda so for our purposes it is similar to Christian, Jew, Muslim, spiritualist, etc.
The government = power. When the government favors one side over the other, the favored side receives more power than the rest.
The reason you cannot hang the 10 commandments in the courthouse is that subconsciously tells everyone who sees it that this theological point of view carries more weight than the commandments outlined in the Quoran or the Code of Hammurabi.
Same with any religious symbolism.
In your church, your home, your private business you can do what you want. Your actions do not limit my freedom. The same is not true if you have power over me.
The law is clear: Christian schools do not have to hire Muslim teachers even if the Muslim is better qualified. This is because they are private.
A public school would have to hire the Muslim teacher because they are a defacto arm of the government
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The government can’t mandate that religious items be displayed in public buildings but there is nothing, according to the Constitution, prohibiting an employee of the government from displaying a religious item in their office unless prohibited in their terms of employment. There is no general prohibition of religious speech in public buildings.
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You are incorrect Smartimus. These issues were indeed tried in court. Your argument is what the judge used in the famous 10 commandments case. He said the court room was his office.
Jay Sekulow and the ACLJ are the experts in this area. Check out their websites.
You cannot be prohibited from personal expressions of freedom on your break. You cannot hang whatever picture you want in your cubicle. Especially if you work with the public.
Remember, you are not yourself on the job. You are representing someone. If you are a bureaucrat you are representing the US Government. Just as the government cannot condone or promote one religion above another, neither can you as their representative.
This issue is coming to a head with several cases involving the US military. Commanders opening meetings with prayer. Forced attendance at chapel services under the guise of team building and esprit de corps.
Chapel used to be required at West Point. It is not anymore for this very reason.
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FN, thanks for your thoughtful comments — which I mostly agree with.
However, while I think I see your train of thought, I have to respectfully take issue with your notion that: “…atheism qualifies as a religion. It has a theological outlook & a political agenda…”
a) the notion that atheism is a religion makes as much sense as the idea that virginity is a form of promiscuity.
b) “theology” is a study of dogmas — while atheism is (by literal definition) a disregard for dogma.
c) the only political agenda common to atheists is freedom from imposed religion (otherwise it’s probably easier to herd cats than organize to atheists politically).
Finally, with regard to our government, it’s not so much about “power” as the law of the land. The COTUS mandates that the government cannot impose religion, nor favor one type over another. In essence, it’s as simple as that!
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You are correct, we agree more than we disagree. It is simply a matter of definitions. Theology is not the study of dogmas. Theo = God. Ology = study. Theology is the study of God.
In this country most people assume we are talking about Christianity, but that is far too narrow. Every “religion” has a theology. Atheism does not believe in a “God” but that does not mean they do not have a theology. They believe the earth came into being and is ordered along certain lines, just like everyone else.
As you so aptly pointed out, most atheists do not want other religion’s precepts to influence or interfere with their lives. That in itself is a dogma, one I share. As my posts consistently show, I am not a big fan of the mixing of church and state. I have cited numerous examples in the past about why.
I am an Evangelical Christian. That does not mean I am automatically share the same political or religious beliefs as some of my brothers.
My unwillingness to be forced to bow to another’s idle is called Libertarianism. That is why I am Libertarian instead of GOP or Dem.
One area where I do believe you need to reconsider is the use of power. Politics is all about power. That is why the President of the United States is called the most powerful man/woman in the world.
Laws simply delineate who holds the power. In our case we take it away from the “church.” The same is not true in Iran.
As I said above, politics = power. Laws simply outline who is in power at the moment.
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Then there people like me who really don’t fit into any real slot. I believe in spirituallity, but I don’t believe in a supreme being. I’m not an athiest nor an agnostic. I just accept that this life force flows trough all living things and that about as close to a god we actually have that I can see as a tangable god. The one real connection, but has nothing to do with what happens next…That’s all chance. Hell…science basically has shown life to be a combination of choices or events that basically is on a continuation of creating all sorts of different things and outcomes…….Sorry…Don’t buy the “Gods plan” philosophy. Then again I could be wrong, and your god doese this sort of like a big jig saw puzzle and is amused at all the outcomes….We’re a living lab for a mad scientist being….Who knows?
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Hmmmm…I seem to have more typos when I say such things……Maybe that’s a sign….
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Again FN, I’ll have to respectfully disagree. A “dogma” is a collection of beliefs that people have faith in — and the existence (and purported study of) gods is classic dogma. People of faith aren’t interested in evidence that contradicts their faith (and many see disregarding such evidence as a virtuous display of faith).
In contrast, a (scientific) “theory” is a set of propositions that can be tested. Scientists generally don’t use the “B” word (believe) so much (although many are much too casual with it IMO). Rather, they will talk about the amount and quality of evidence (for and against), and their confidence in that evidence.
As science has progressed — especially biology and physics — the evidence against the existence of supernatural entities has grown to the point that most top scientists are not religious at all (although some are able to compartmentalize their brains to accept illogical opposites!).
Most non-religious folks I know of are generally much more interested in evidence and logic rather than dogmatic beliefs.
Bottom line: Atheism is a lack of dogma (belief in gods). You did agree that atheists don’t like religious beliefs being forced on others (in contrast to many in the religious right!) — but that is not a dogma — it’s a philosophical position based in ethics and morality.
Greetings to you and all this winter holiday season!
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You bring up some great points Just: I would counter with an observation. If atheists are lacking in a dogma (set of beliefs) how do you explain some people’s rabid (word chosen purposefully and not without a great deal of thought) belief/defense in evolution?
At its heart evolution is a theory. As you say it is a belief open to testing.
I for one believe in change over time. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that humans have changed over the past million years or so (I have no patience or tolerance for my Christian brethren who insist the world is 6000 years old. A more spurious reading of the Bible is hard to find). I am unconvinced that there was an inter-species jump. There simply is no evidence of this. Even with DNA many scientists are unconvinced.
Evolution is a theory. Like most theories there are parts that are correct: change over time, and parts that will be discarded as new evidence becomes available. Yet despite this, in an effort to thwart the social agenda of the creationist crowd, atheists and others act as if evolution (inter-species jump and all) is a fact and anyone who disagrees is unenlightened and not fit to be part of the discussion.
This is amusing considering the inter-species jump is being questioned and being discarded by many secular scientists. The pieces of the jigsaw puzzle are simply not adding up.
In this respect the social agenda of the anti creationist crowd have become their dogma. One just as stringent as the most ardent Evangelical.
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The “Missing Link” has been a puzzle, but the bible paints the beginning of human kind as humans with full facilities to do such things as reason. Evidence collected of primitive humans show them to basically being barely different than the animals in their environments. In fact through a long range of trial and error they finally were able to rise above the animal world through the discovery of killing tools. If the people described in the bible started out in the fashion described, then I think their rise to the top of the food chain would have accellerated much quicker than it did.
So while the “Missing Link” might still be missing….So is the one in the bible
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The voting population has been divided into two groups. Those that work for a living, and those that live off those that work for a living.
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More twisted wisdom from the fox hole…..None the less…You on the right just keep thinking this nonsense, and keep blaming all your woes on things like ACORN stealing the election (49% of you said so in a survey…An organization that disbanded in 2010) and continue to show such loathing for minorities. In other words never let up and never look at the real problems on the right…..And expect more of the same time and again. Because the fox party will buy into the big propaganda machine, but that’s about it because everyone else is actually paying attention to what’s really going on. Maybe the real conservatives will take the party back after the lunitic fringe continues to run it in to obscurity….Or maybe real conservatives will start a new party. Or the best thing for the GOP would be for this tea part to try to become an independant party from the GOP. Just let the full frontal lunitic fringe really try to get America on board……..No that would be a massive crash and burn..
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Sorry Bob: Tundra is correct on this one. You are just repeating what amounts to sour grapes. It is easier to blame some intangible external force than look in the mirror and say: we lost because our message was wrong for the times, our strategy was horrible (as discussed numerous times before, there simply were not enough angry white men to pull it off), & our candidate a cold fish.
If your hypothesis is correct & everyone who worked for a living went to Romney & everyone who was a leech on society’s backside went for the Big O; Romney would have won 95/5.
Just to keep things in perspective I have two jobs, earn a little over 80 a year, & I most assuredly did not vote for GWB lite.
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