The economic implications of admission standards
December 1, 2012 at 11:19 pm in Grand Forks Herald
Ralph Kingsbury, a former member of the North Dakota Board of Higher Education, likes to tell about the Walsh County farmer who reacted to news that the state university system might impose admission standards in this way: “I pay taxes and my son has a right to flunk out of the university.” That’s about to change. Continue Reading
“Shirvani imagines that only 5 percent of these students — athletes excepted — should require remedial education.”
Why excepted? I remember writing in to the ask your government section when it was still up & running asking whether athletes had different admission standards. The answer from the SBHE was an immediate & resounding NO!
We all know that is false. The question was prompted by the UND hockey scandal where the player was deemed ineligible by the NCAA because they couldn’t prove he graduated from HS.
What would the e,defect of equal standards for athletes? UND hockey never seeing another national championship. Look at it this way: the Air Force Academy has never won a championship that I am aware of. They have also never been accused of being a diploma mill either.
Life is about choices. The choice to give athletes a free ride cheapens the earning power of my UND degree. When your choices negatively affect my ability to provide for my family, I take offense
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The big time coaches are not going to keep their multi-million dollar jobs by recruiting students, because students don’t win games, athletes do. Up here where hockey is king, Hakstol has attempted to get 8th and 9th graders to sign letters of intent, long before their academic abilities are known, but their hockey skills are. It’s time to stop the charade; drop the con job that athletics has anything to do with a university and turn it all into club teams like Europe. Pay the athletes a share of the enormous money the NCAA brings in. If some want to take classes, fine. But they have to be academically worthy. For every Bill Bradley there’s a dexter Manley, who graduated illiterate.
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I agree with removing athletics from the universities. It will never happen, but it would be the right thing to do
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Careful. You may just be making accusations that aren’t true. There aren’t separate admission standards for athletes. However, NCAA does have specific requirements for eligibility. A student can meet admission requirements for an institution, but in turn not be eligible for athletics based on a different set of criteria set by the NCAA. I don’t recall any athlete where their high school graduation status was questioned. I guarantee you that this person would not be a student at UND if they couldn’t show they graduated high school. Were you thinking of a player who completed a couple classes at a school that for some reason wasn’t able to provide transcripts proving completion of those courses?
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Valerie: your statement is exactly what the SBHE told the Harald Reporter, yet the Chancellor’s plans clearly show admission standards are not the same. Reduce remedial classes to 5% BUT EXCLUDE ATHLETES from those calculations. Taken to the logical extreme, that means 100% of athletes could conceivably need remedial education (they don’t, UND has many athletic scholars, but it is possible).
We always have given athletes a wink and a nod academically. This phenomena is certainly not new and most definitely not confined to UND. I can think of numerous scandals over the years involving almost every big name sports school.
I chose the Air Force Academy as an example on purpose. They are a school with a mission that just also happens to have a full menu of sports teams attached. No one ever goes to the Air Force Academy just to play hockey or football. People go to the Air Force Academy to become officers.
Wouldn’t it be nice if 1. everyone loved one another 2. hunger, poverty, and war were unheard of 3. racism was a concept our children did not understand 4. people went to university to learn.
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Well if you’re going to dream then: 6. A real truth serum is created and all politicians are administered it every morning while in office. 7. That the news media became interested in real news once again rather than just the sensational. 8. That global warming could be cooled down without having to go through extreme measures. 9. That the Venus women would learn to think Martian so there’d be less understanding. 10: That not everything needs to be “New and improved” because sometimes the old, “Tried and true” is so much better in the first place (Talking to you industrial engineers…You don’t have to justify your jobs by screwing up things that work just fine)
Anyway I figured since we were taking a walk on Fantasy Island…..I’d stroll along too…
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Silly me for trying to insert facts into a conversation filled with posts rampant with hyperbole and philosophical rants. I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that the admission standards at the University of North Dakota are the same for athletes as for non-athletes. I agree that Shirvani’s proposal (remember, nothing has been enacted yet) does give the indication that athletes will be given special treatment. I just wanted to clarify that at UND this has not been the case in the last decade (I can’t speak for anything before the year 2000). I don’t like it when false accusations are made. Call me crazy. That was the whole point of my post. Carry on.
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Valerie. You and I have both been at UND about the same amount of time. You showed up in 2000 and me in 2002. What you say may be true on paper, but as we have discussed the reality is very different.
It is not a sin to give athletes preferential treatment, but to pretend we do otherwise is less than honest.
Are you telling me the gentleman who could not produce transcripts proving he had completed the required courses to graduate (these were self study community high school type courses if I remember correctly) would have gotten admitted if he was a history major and not an athlete?
I think you would have a very hard time documenting such an occurrence.
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Flyingnurse, believe what you will. You don’t know me. Well, maybe you do. I used my actual name, but I don’t know who you are. I AGAIN can 100 percent guarantee that athletes were subjected to the exact same admission standards as non-athletes at UND. This is first-hand knowledge stated by a person that has worked very closely with admissions at UND. It is not conjecture. There have been very talented athletes that did not attend UND because they did not meet the admission requirements. In addition, the coaches are well aware of the admission requirements, and recruit based on those parameters. I happen to think it is irresponsible for people to come on to a website and make accusations without actual facts to support their claims. That is the reason I posted to begin with. Is it really necessary to bring the integrity of actual people employed at UND into question?
As to the hockey player, we may be referring to different people, but the student I am thinking of took online high school classes, which were above and beyond the admission requirements of UND. He was eligible to enroll at UND, but since the school could not provide a transcript of the course, NCAA would not declare him eligible to participate in athletics. There are two separate requirements: UND admission requirements and NCAA eligibility requirements. He met one, but not both. This may not be the same student you were thinking of. No, I don’t think that UND would allow ANY student to enroll that could not verify high school graduation. I have also witnessed people denied admission to UND because they couldn’t verify they graduated from high school (or completed a GED). Take care!
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You left out “Just plain Goofs”
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I have another possible explanation for excluding athletes from the 5% calculation.
I was employed for a number of years as a Spanish & Japanese tutor at the Thornton Athletic Center at the University of TN, an institution serving student athletes & funded by private donations. My wages, for providing remedial education services to student athletes, were paid with private, rather than public, funds.
The issue with remedial education is that it can be cost-ineffective at a research institution. But if that cost is paid by private donations to the athletic program, one can exclude those costs from the public remedial education costs.
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” There aren’t separate admission standards for athletes.”
You’re kidding, right? Of course there are separate standards. How do you think the big basketball programs get ghetto kids into their programs? Oh, I know, it’s not PC to say it, but that’s the way it is. Bring them in, have “tutors” do all their work, and when their eligibilty is up, cut ‘em loose. It’s how the U of MN coach got his team to the Final 4, with a 0% graduation rate.
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Here is a link to a CHE article on a study of graduation rates among athletes
http://chronicle.com/blogs/players/report-finds-disturbing-racial-inequities-in-6-biggest-sports-conferences/32021
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Valerie, sounds as though you are a University employee. Is this how you spend my tax dollars, reading the GF Herald online and posting on websites?
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Winner! Can’t beat that logic….
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“That’s about to change.”
Don’t hold your breath, Mr. Jacobs. You’ve been around long enough to know that the NDUS campus have long operated as independent fiefdoms, doing exactly what they want, and running to their local legislators for relief from overarching decisions by chancellors and the SBHE. Two recent examples are NDSU’s Chapman who, in another life, sold sanke oil to naive customers, and his successor, Bresciani, who threatened the elimination of academic programs if an 8.5% increase in tuition was not instituted. (Notice there was never any mention of athletic programs put in danger.) Mr. Shirvani has proposed some salutary changes…problem is, they are changes, which doom them in ND.
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When people get scared or are unsure, it seems the natural inclination is to place more restrictions or buy into the concept of ‘better than’ when it comes to not just material things but, sadly, other human beings as well. If societies are going to progress, the opposite needs to happen.
Mr. Jacobs and the other posters’ comments here are based on believing that the system of higher ed – that’s been in existence for how long now – should not change, but should continue to perpetuate the myth that four years of school prepares one for life or a fulfilling career or much of anything that really matters. Actually, it’s often what happens outside the classroom that does more for preparing a person for life than most college courses ever will.
Mr. Jacobs, why not educate yourself about the fact that many, many people eventually change careers [after getting their degrees] or that many people at the ages of 17 or 18 have no clue what they really want to do or that scores on college entrance exams have been given FAR greater ‘predictive powers’ than they deserve. Research those issues why don’t you?
Yes, everyone deserves an opportunity to fail. Mr. Jacobs, you and so many others have no real clue what it is you are advocating when it comes to the bigger picture. And, FN, I laughed out loud at the egocentric last line of your first post above. Too bad you don’t give others the same entitlement.
I hope there are lawsuits against the NDUS for discriminating in the favor of athletes.
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Just curious as to how many of the joke classes still exist in these universities. When I went to UND they had walking and it was the prerequisite for jogging.
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Lulz. I took jogging. Did learn some good stretching techniques and nutrition, though. Also had to write a research paper with sources.
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I have no problem with providing equal opportunity to higher education, but at the same time, tightening of admission standards is needed. The continued growth in the number of students needing remedial classes is a fact. Another fact is schools with tougher admission standards have higher graduation rates. As to graduation, both of my alma mater’s for undergraduate and graduate school required adequate progress toward a degree both in grade point average and number of credits. If you fell behind in either one, there was one semester probation and after that, you were thrown out. If you couldn’t do the work, you were out. Those needing remedial classes would be out after the freshman year. It is time to use that standard. Athletes should be held to an even higher standard and get no exceptions. The problem starts with inadequate preparation at the k-12 level and when high schools start having their students rejected for admission, that will force the changes needed in high schools. Not everyone could or should go to college. As to the farmer from Walsh county, unless he is a very large farmer, doesn’t pay near enough taxes to support the university system let alone for his son.
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“I pay taxes and my son has a right to flunk ….” How in the world do you reach students with parents that think that way? And to think that someone else didn’t get into a class because this space-waster did.
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Devil, did you read the article or is this just a knee-jerk reaction based on an assumption or assumptions? Must be the latter because where in the article did it say ANYTHING about whether or not the son actually did attend the university, actually did or didn’t do well in the course, etc. Hmmmm, now WHAT assumptions could be made about your reading abilities or the people who taught you? But I wouldn’t want to make any assumptions….
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Who taught you manners?
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DC, I get it. It’s OK for you to call names and judge using assumptions. BUT it’s NOT OK if the same is done to you. Miss Manners says look in the mirror.
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Walk it off.
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Not that I disagree with raising admission standards, but what’s actually left for those who don go to college (Not everyone is cut out for it anyway)? I really don’t know, but is there really much left for trade schools since so much of our trades are being done in other countries now days? As for starting a job someplace with a high school deploma and working your way up from an entry level position….Other than fast food joints I’m not too sure there’s any of that left out there today. So what happens to those who can’t make it to college now days? I guess there’s military, but other than that are we laying ground for a larger working poor class?
Like I said…I really don’t know what’s available out there, but if we keep raisning the bar without having other options…Then what?
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Allow me to offer my daughter as an example. She has a high school diploma, yet has accumulated a huge amount of work experience, starting at 15 as a coffee server at the Royal Fork. Her latest starting salary was more than an entry level PhD gets at UND.
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You can’t just leave that hanging….What job by comparison?
I know there’s still some out there, but from what I’ve read, and from what I’ve heard…They’re far and few between. Hell…When I was a kid you showed up at a construction site and asked for a job to be a laborer. If you worked out and showed potential you might even learn carpentery, cement finishing, brick laying or such….Some time back I hear that they were even teaching something relatively simple as construction labor at trade colleges. It seems that most work places don’t have entry level jobs that are on the job training anymore.
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My daughter started at the Royal Fork, then at a yoghurt place. She got a job as a bank teller, and then other positions where her math and computer abilities pushed her forward. She is now office manager at a CPA firm. Everything she learned was on the job, not at a university.
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The Mayor of Moorhead is both a college grad and a licensed electrician.
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EVERYONE deserves a shot at higher education. It is the only consistent way to break the chains of poverty (becoming a rap star or pro athlete is not a realistic plan for 99.9% of the population).
Everyone does not deserve to go to a flagship school straight out of high school or the military. Community colleges exist to provide remedial instruction for those who need it as they work their way towards qualifying for a university slot & technical education for those who do not want to go the academic route.
They are the best invention going in higher ed. These colleges need to have open enrollment (If you are breathing you are accepted. 30 years old & quit school in the 8 grade? Come on down, we have a spot for you) and they need to be dirt cheap.
UND & NDSU receive millions of dollars in sports revenue. Using some of that to keep community college tuition in the $50-$75 a credit hour range is a quality investment.
Given our population, it makes sense for ND to have 2 universities, 2 four year schools in the western half of the state (Minot, Dickinson, or Bismarck) and 7 or 8 community colleges located wherever there are 8000 – 10,000 people.
It only makes sense.
As an aside, when I went to the University of Arizona, Math 110, college algebra, was the lowest level math class offered – & then grudgingly. The admin felt college algebra was actually a high school class.
Since I am rotten at math I disagree, but it does show the chancellor’s ideas are not new or strange.
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“UND & NDSU receive millions of dollars in sports revenue.”
Not sure what your source is, since neither school publishes an audited report on athletics’ P & L.
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I have no problem with them putting in these standards. BUT…then quit asking every North Dakotan to help fund the places. If we North Dakotans all have to pay for the places, then we should all have an equal chance of ATTENDING. Once there if they’re flunking, then kick them out. But all students should have a chance. The fact is a lot of the kids with good high school grades are going to flunk out. And, a lot of the lower performing ones in high school are going to ace college. In college you have to set your priorities and you no longer have mom and dad to make you go to class and to study. Some do well in that, others don’t. But in a world where education means more than it ever has and every single TAXPAYER pays to keep those doors open, all of our students should at least have a chance. If they blow the chance, then make them leave.
Also, if you have less people going to these high cost institutions, the costs are going to rise even higher. A lot of their costs are “fixed” costs in buildings and what not. More attendees means a lower cost per attendee.
Considering we hired a person from the State of the “Elite” and “Tax Tax Tax”, I guess we should have expected such thinking. Sorry, but this is North Dakota where we believe in hard work and that all our kids should have a chance. The farmer who said I pay taxes so my kids has the right to flunk said it perfect. If you want our tax money you better damn well give us all the opportunity.
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” If we North Dakotans all have to pay for the places, then we should all have an equal chance of ATTENDING. Once there if they’re flunking, then kick them out. But all students should have a chance. ”
Would you advocate the same for the medical school? Law school? Petroleum engineering (serious money there)?
Your argument has a certain emotional value, but it ignores reality. Contrary to what you were taught in school, we are all not created equal. Some people really are smarter than others.
As I said above, that does not mean everyone is not entitled and in fact needs a higher education. The question is where do you go for the first two years.
50% of people who start college never finish. That is a fact. It is also true across the entire United States. You have a perishable commodity (a seat in the classroom). Once class is underway and someone drops out/flunks out, you cannot resell that seat. The revenue or potential learning is gone forever.
Also, you have more people that want a seat than there are seats. Someone is going to not get what they want. That is true of most college classes. If I let you in so you have your fair chance, who do I exclude?
I am middle of the road academically. I graduated Cum Laude as an undergrad and with a 3.5 as grad student. I was nothing special. I did not enter university right off the bat when I chose to go back to school. I had to spend 2 years at the local Junior College clearing the cobwebs out of my brain and relearning how to think.
Wasting space and flunking out at university for those two years would have done no one any good.
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As I said before, the latest figure I’ve seen is that the state funds about 22% of the UND budget, which is why tuition has skyrocketed so much. Still, it’s better that the Us of Virginia and Kentucky, which states fund about 17%.
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I once helped with a college study (not in ND) where we could see, clearly, that the kids who did well in high school did well in college. It wasn’t that they were smarter: it was that they had a better work ethic. A kid who works in high school will be OK in college.
Now, it is true that some kids mature later than others. Therefore, it should also be true that some kids are better off working for a few years before continuing their educations.
It is also true that there are a lot — and I mean a LOT — of young people in college who do not read, are not especially smart, are not intellectually curious, sit in the back row and sleep, and attend because they think a college degree is a passport to a good job, when in reality a well-rounded education is a passport to a good life.
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It seems there are at least two fundamental goals for education in our society:
1) Education as a means for promoting social equality. Everyone contributes to the system, so everyone should get a shot at the good life.
2) Education as a means for increasing public prosperity. That is, we should allocate some resources only to the best & brightest in order to maximize public return on public investment. High achievers are likely to produce more than low achievers after graduation, so we should support them more in order to get back more.
These goals are both important and need to be balanced. Reserving the most challenging courses at UND and NDSU for the best-prepared applicants, while minimizing the cost of entry-level courses for everyone else seems to be a compromise worth considering.
I wish I could spend half as much on entry-level chemistry, physics, and calculus courses, but as long as I’m living and working in Grand Forks, I see UND as my only option. I’d much rather take an online course from NDSCS or another less-expensive (more efficient) college and transfer the credits to UND once I’m ready for the more demanding engineering courses. But I’m not aware of any such options.
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