N.D. abortion numbers steady as U.S. sees big decline
November 28, 2012 at 6:32 pm in Grand Forks Herald
North Dakota’s abortion numbers have held fairly steady, even as the nation’s abortion rate fell 5 percent in 2009 the largest single-year decrease in a decade state and national reports show. Continue Reading
From the article, “Planned Parenthood and the American Civil Liberties Union are fighting a South Dakota law that requires a woman to prove she has gone to a crisis pregnancy center for counseling and requires a 72-hour mandatory wait for an abortion after her initial consultation with her doctor. The doctor must also obtain written proof the woman has had required counseling.”
If someone is “pro-CHOICE” why would they oppose someone knowing the alternatives and taking time to consider the consequences?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Glen: as a nurse I am obviously pro life. I know when life starts. That said these types of laws are simply back door trickery. Their sole intent is to make getting an abortion as difficult as possible so the woman can’t or won’t comply.
If you make her jump through all these hoops, & charge for each one, she will not be able to afford it. If you require counseling then move to dramatically reduce who can offer this service, you can delay the process to the point the woman is no longer eligible.
I am pro life, but society has chosen to make abortion legal. If you want to stop abortion quit playing games with the process & get a constitutional amendment passed prohibiting it. If you do not have enough votes, live with it & pray for these women’s souls.
Face it, legal or illegal, in the end you stand before God alone. What man’s law says is completely irrelevant. We simply are not half as important as we think we are.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Sorry.. I am completely opposite. I think women should have a choice and nothing anyone can say will ever change that stance. I also would rather that a child be brought up in home where they are wanted and loved. Our states foster care statistics completely belie others assertions that if a woman gives a child up for adoption, that they will be adopted.
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Ah the emotional based fear mongering.. Have to ‘love’ those arguments.
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Actually, the government is the one who has the right to kill your child at 18 either if they do something bad and get the death penalty or if they send them into war and they are killed by the enemy. Why is that just fine with you? Nobody is asking for women to be able to kill their children except when they are snall enough to fit into a petri dish. Then fertility clinics can kill all the fertilized eggs they want. Do you see the illogic of your stance? All of the above are just fine, but heaven help the women who might die if she carries a fetus to term, or if she takes a morning after pill.
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When it is no longer feasible for the human body to naturally abort the child.
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Glenn, obviously you and I haven’t had this discussion…becuase I would tell you that ALL life is sacred, and there’s no such thing as a cut off as to when its okay to take it. I wonder if all the pro choicers hear themselves when they discuss this topic. I imagine they’d hear like I do… a lot of people deciding what life is good to keep, and what lives aren’t. All of the unborn are worthy of the gift of life, whether they be handicapped, or born into a poor home life. After all, none of us have had perfect upbringings… what if your mom had decided that you were too much of a burden to bring to term? The abortion discussion is just like every other major topic in our society right now…the winners are basing their judgements on emotion, with reason and rational though having left the building a long time ago. Meanwhile, those of us who have thought the topic through are scratching our heads wondering how half the country came to the opposite opinion. I know…here’s what we’ll all do. Just step back from any issue that doesn’t directly affect us and let someone else have a stance. Then, when things get so ugly we’ll have no choice BUT to make a call…we’ll get involved.
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Those of you that ‘disliked’ my comment on November 29, 2012 at 8:47 PM, have you really thought about abortion and the way the human body works. Until such a time that the human body decides that the products of conception have made a viable fetus it can and will abort.
Do you realize that very few of all conceptions actually end up in a viable child (not including abortion statistics).. That means the body either eliminates, or the fetus fails to attach to the womb. This statistical figure is theorized to be somewhere around a 70% rate total.
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If the child is an infant it will be adopted before it finishes its first bottle. Babies are in very high demand for adoption. The older the child is the more difficult it is to find adoptive families. So you are right and you are wrong.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I agree with that assessment. Also if the child has any possible ‘issues’ they are less likely to be adopted. I live in a family where a female was ‘date raped’ and ultimately decided to keep the child. He is a wonder and an amazement to us all. When she was thinking of getting an abortion I attempted to steer here away and towards adoption. With the support of her parents she decided to keep her now 18 year old son.
With all of that said, it still doesn’t change the fact that I feel women should have a choice.
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Glen: you support my argument. Society saw a wrong & changed it. This is the same. You will not save one soul with back door shenanigans.
The only way abortion will be curbed or stopped in this country is a constitutional amendment. Anything else is a waste of time & effort. It is also largely ineffective, as the numbers in this article show.
Finally, from a purely theological point of view: who decides who lives & who dies? If you are a Christian you cannot possibly answer: man.
As I said above, we are not nearly as important in the grand scheme of things as we make ourselves out to be
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flyingnurse, considering theology, you full well know that Christianity has been severely divided for hundreds of years over the issue of just what God causes and/or allows. Did God cause Kalcie Eagle to commit the murders at New Town? Are you saying that abortion is God’s will?
You know what Jesus said about causing one of “these little ones to sin.” Now granted, aborting a baby is not causing the baby to sin. But do you really think killing the baby wouldn’t be much worse than causing a child to sin?
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As for society recognizing the evils of slavery and changing it– Many hundreds of thousands of Americans died over that issue. (Yes, techically the war was fought to save the Union and to prevent states from seceding, but everyone who has studied that period knows that it was the threat of losing their slaves that prompted the South to secede.) A Contitutional Amendment would never have passed if the Union hadn’t controlled the legislatures in the South.
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Glen. You are correct on both accounts. The Bible makes it abundantly clear: God decides who lives & who dies. He is sovereign. We as humans dislike this fact. We prefer to be in charge. The trouble is we are not up to the job.
Does God allow evil? The answer has to be yes otherwise He is not God. He is either in control or he is not. Remember allowing something is not the same as condoning it. Two different issues.
As for a Civil War over abortion? During the 1980s I would have said yes. Now, I think it will wither on the vine as better alternatives become available. Will it ever disappear? No.
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” I know when life starts.”
And just when is that. And what do you base it on?
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I cant take the credit for this comment, but whomever said it was right: “If men were the ones who had to have abortions, they would be available by drive-throughs everywhere.” Judge not, lest ye be judged, people.
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I am opposed to abortion in almost all instances. I used to be “personally opposed” but believed that people should decide for themselves. I did not see the fetus as different from a tumor. Then I saw “The Silent Scream.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON-8PP6zgQ
That was a baby that was killed. Each abortion is killing a baby. That’s something that “pro-choice” people don’t want to admit. They don’t want to see exactly what is happening. To force someone who is considering abortion is consider cruel. What is more cruel, to show someone prior to the abortion just what they are considering or to let them go through with it and then live with horrendous guilt later in life when they finally realize just what they did?
I think much of the support for abortion “rights” comes from women who have had abortions and don’t want to think about what they actually did. It’s easier to reduce the decision to kill a baby to a “women’s right.”
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Glenn, couldn’t agree more…funny thing is this… you got more thumbs down than up here. Its a simple fact, with backing to go with it. People have decided that the unborn aren’t really people yet… and then act accordingly. How long before we decide that those that are old and requiring constant care aren’t part of society anymore? If we are making the judgement on “role performed” I could make the argument for both groups. Or, do we simply cherish ALL life and let God sort it out from there? I know this…every woman that has an abortion knows what she has done…she’s killed something against her every instinct and moral code…and it will catch up with her someday. This is NOT a good thing. Personally I want something better for the women in our society…and abortion isn’t it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Receiving a majority of thumbs down doesn’t surprise me. I think many people read one comment, disagree with it, and then go thumbs down on anything else posted by the same individual.
When asking questions like, “Just where would you draw the line?” those people don’t answer. I think they don’t answer because they don’t want to admit that they are unable to draw a line, therefore they won’t draw one. Then when one extends the line beyond birth, they think it is fear-mongering. “Of course we’d never think it acceptible to kill a baby after its born!” That is different to their minds, but is it? No
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Couldn’t agree with you more Jacquelyn…..
Hot debate. What do you think?
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No person has the right to take the life of an unborn child.
Some of mankind’s laws are wrong. Just because its legal does not make it right.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The choice of abortion clinics should always be available if one wishes to have it done. What most likely thing that will happen if such becomes illegal or painfully restrictive, ones that want an abortion will look for another way to force an abortion or risk of death making the attempt them self instead of having a medically safe place to do it. However, I see low cost or free contraceptives through health care provider as the preferred way to go to prevent pregnancies in first place.
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Are people so obtuse that they actually believe that making abortion illegal would end abortions? Or, do they really not care if women are placed in a position where access to SAFE abortions are inaccessible? As for these extra ‘hoops’ – give women some credit – the majority of us do not make this decision lightly or uninformed. As they say…..If you can’t trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with a child?
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Exactly. None of us are “pro-abortion.” Most of us, I think, are pro-option.
The options include giving up the full-term baby for adoption, keeping the potential (remember how many pregnancies end in miscarriage) baby, and abortion.
We should be doing all we can to make sure young women have access to safe, effective and inexpensive birth control. We should make sure that women who decide to carry to term get the help they need to place the born child for adoption, or, if they decide to keep the born child, to become self-sufficient.
And we should also allow women, and there are many, with physical or mental health or economic problems to make their own decisions.
I’m sorry, but in a first-trimester abortion the “baby” is about the size of a strawberry and not a “child.”
Women are smart enough to make their own decisions, based on life experience, health, and other issues. You men just stay the heck out of it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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So Grandma, if you are pro-options, do you agree with what Glenn is asking in the first post? Sounds like a way to inform women of their many options.
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I have no problems with options, the problem I have is once you give an inch they take a mile.. So chins you willing to give up your guns?
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Don’t own one.
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Are you willing to give up the guns of your fellow party members then? Less guns on the street are good right? They won’t make it to the hands of criminals.. Isn’t that what we are taught?
btw just so you know, I do own guns, and I won’t give them up. Just like I won’t stop fighting to ensure woman have a choice.
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The intent of the wait-24-or-48-or-72 hour laws is to make the option of abortion more difficult and expensive and demeaning. All the abortion clinics I have heard of have counselors, and every patient undergoes counseling prior to the procedure. In addition, women who decide upon abortion have thought about what is best for them and most have discussed it with family, friends, and others.
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I sure when you say “men stay the heck out of it” and they are talking everything through with family and friends, they are making an informed decision…especially when their boyfriend or husband are the ones talking them into it.
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Chins, that is one of the reasons clinics have counselors — to make sure the women’s decision is her own, not someone else’s…
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True, making murder illegal has not stopped murder. Maybe we should make that legal……. just call it a retroactive abortion.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Make it easier, Let’s just bring back all the laws from 1850.
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“I’ve noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.” –Ronald Reagan
Hot debate. What do you think?
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didn’t ron and his wife adopt a child what if his mother had decided to abort??????
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hey clueless … read that again.
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I’ll take that one m,even though you got the big guns angry at you……So what? Do hyou really have faith or ar hyou just mocking some who have instilled religious thought as I suspect most who get up in arms against choice? If yhou honestly believe in the spirit then unless you want to go to the extreme extent of my former religion (Catholic) and call every sperm a life then the idea that the life energy called a spirit will be born someplace regardless if a tissue that cannot stay alive outside the mothers womb is removed. I firmly believe that if there’s a life force that actually is a soul or spirit that it will be born in whatever vessel is available regardless what happens. If there’s a miscarraige….That life force then is born in another vessel regardless how far it is along. Or what…Blame you God for “Murdering the unborn” which might be closer to true in late term than a fetus being removed that is NOT a living being.
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I love that everyone thinks the abortion dilemma is recent. The exact opposite is true. The Hippocratic Oath was written in the late 5 century BC. It says in part:
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
“I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.”
We are not the first to deal with this issue, nor will we be the last.
Since abortions have been illegal since at least the 5 century BC, yet persist, simply outlawing the procedure has to be deemed ineffective. May I suggest a more vigorous root cause analysis?
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Society gets to decide when killing is acceptable. It’s ok to kill in certain circumstances, abortion being one of them. Others would be capital punishment and sending troops to war to be killed. Also in defense of one’s life. The idea that abortion is so different from other types of allowable killing is naive. In fact, killing a grown human who happens to have commited a crime has far greater consequences then killing a clump of cells in a dish. This whole issue is totally illogical in how people view justified killling in our society.
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“To compare a murderer to an unborn baby is about as ridiculous an argument as has ever been advanced.”
To call a clump of tissue/cells that cant survive outside its host (for months to come yet), a “baby” is about equally as ridiculous. Dragging organized religion into the debate…BEYOND ridiculous.
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Religion must back out of these issues.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Sorry FN, but religion is more often an obstacle to ethics and morality.
When it comes to the rights of women the USA can’t even bring itself to agree with most of the civilized world because of its religious obsession.
Humanity, and universal human rights are a much better basis for moral decision-making than bronze-age tribal mythologies.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“if present trends continue”? What are you talking about, fn? The actual trend has been for restrictions on abortions for late term procedures. In fact, when I was a teenager and before the abortion debate was even in existence, it was routine for obstetricians to bascially order “no sustenence” for children born with severe defects. It was considered standard practice at that time. These were babies with spinal issues, gross defects that might have been able to live for years. So, if anything, the abortion debate has pullled back the time of acceptability for abortion, not the other way around. Now it is possible for even early term babies to survive when 30 years ago they couldn’t even help them and didn’t. So let’s credit the abortion debate with defining terms and conditions. Ultimately, if a women can not bear a child for whatever reason, she should have the choice of a VERY early procedure. I don’t see your inevitable slide into infanticide of full-term infants as reality or possibility.
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Realist: that is what I said: within our children’s lifetime it will be feasible for a team of healthcare workers to save an infant in one section of the hospital that is the same gestational age as another infant being aborted across the street. With the advances in perinatology this scenario is inevitable.
As for kids with severe defects: the vast, vast majority are now treated. A very tiny minority are denied life support. One of our crews helped deliver a 26 week infant that was a Do Not Resuscitate. His brain & spinal cord were outside his skull & spinal column. This was known ahead of time so all decisions were previously agreed upon.
Thankfully cases like this one are exceedingly rare. They occur, but thankfully only once or twice a career
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I see nothing wrong with tests being done during pregnancy to see if the fetus is healthy, if it is seen to have defects, I see no problem for the couple to decide on an abortion at the time of defect discovery, especially if it would cause years of medical issues and expense to the couple and or government. Many couples that have a baby with a genetic defect or severe health issues often end up in divorce.
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Women are led to believe certain things, like the pill and abortion, give them freedom. Yet they fail to see those same things are tools to increase the freedom of men. “You take a dangerous pharmaceutical so we (I) don’t have to worry, and if it fails, you go through a psychologically damaging procedure, so we (I) don’t have to worry. And don’t let anyone tell you anything differently–it’s your body.” Who’s in control of a woman’s body?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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A woman must be allowed the agency to make her own choices; same as a man. Do you allow others to dictate what happens with your prostate, testes, or other uniquely male organs?
No one has ever argued these choices are without consequences. That is simply not the case. If you take birth control you run the risk of blood clots. If you choose to have an abortion you risk psychological harm, infection, sterility, & death.
None of these side effects are hidden or downplayed. Women know them & factor them into their decision making. The point is it is their decision. They make it & live with the results: in this life & the next
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Deo, your comment doesn’t pass the logic test. If women are freed by contraception, then is it not possible for men to also be freed? Why not? You imply that women have been duped into believing they are freer, but because men are also freer somehow women’s freedom doesn’t count? Back to school for you.
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Realist–I never said contraception made women freer. (I would argue it does the opposite). I’ll go back to school to study logic, it’s right down the hall from Reading & Comprehension.
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Sooooooo…. You think women are so stupid that because they’re using birth control that they’ll sleep with any idiot who wanders down the road? I think not.
I remember life in the 60s and 70s, which were supposed to be the eras of “free sex,” but it was mostly the guys who hoped for that and I have to tell you, they were mostly disappointed.
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I think you are out of reality, when it comes to women sleeping around.
I am sick and tired of hearing mothers tell me “my daughters birth control pills did not work and now she is pregnant”.
In every instant, those women slept with bums and the pill did not happen to work and they ended up pregnant.
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I don’t follow. So the mothers were right? I do question your statement that you get “tired” of people telling you their birth control didn’t work. What line of work are you in?
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I socialize with different people. Its some mothers that tell me what has happened to their daughters. I just roll my eyes when the “my (single) daughters birth control pills did not work and now she is pregnant”.
Is it a bad thing for an unmarried woman to practice chastity, since she is not married? If you want to play, accept the consequences (pregnancy, HIV, Herpes, etc.)
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If they did not Grandma I would never get layed.
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Thanks for sharing.
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When you “Guys” are pregnant and have a decision to make I can promise you that no choice people will ever try to talk you into getting an abortion. What’s that? You’ll never have that decision……Then you’re position is moot from he get go.
Here’s a thought…How about being concerned about the millions who have been forced into being raised in really bad conditions. If you spent half as much energy worrying about hose who are here now instead of worrying about forcing more onto those ranks…You’d actually make a real difference and perhaps get a message out to some that a few of you actually are concerned once here out of the womb….Until then…..It’s basically you’re own self interest you’re trying to get passed…Nothing more
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You are close Tundra: when men take as much responsibility for that clump of cells, before & after birth, as we demand of women, then we might have a seat at the table.
Single parent households are the greatest indicator of poverty there is. Guess who heads 90% of these households.
The laws against deadbeat dads are stiff, but ineffective. That is because society condones sperm donors ignoring their responsibilities. When that changes, the statistics will change.
When people ridicule you & publicly shame you for not paying your child support; when your mama won’t talk to you or let you in the house for Christmas dinner unless you are paid up; then things will change. Not until
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When you “Guys” are pregnant and have a decision to make I can promise you that no choice people will ever try to talk you into getting an abortion. What’s that? You’ll never have that decision……Then you’re position is moot from he get go.
When you “gals” have someone pregnant with your baby and they decide to murder it and you have no say or choice in the matter no pro life people will come to talk to you. What’s that?? You’ll never have to make that decision….. Then your position is moot from the get go.
Maybe if you turn it around will will see how all of men’s rights to protect their child are ignored and trampled. When it comes to the life of their child men have no rights or say…. when it comes to paying for a child they did not want, even if the woman lied about being on birth control, men have no say or rights. Until this country requires joint legal/physical custody unless a parent is proven unfit the rights of the father will continue to be trampled.
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Glen: whether or not the child is wanted is irrelevant. You made it, you are morally & ethically responsible to care for it.
As i tell my children: The mother is secondary in this discussion. We are talking about you, not her.
If the mother is a crack head, prostitute, &/or psychotic; it does not matter. You chose to sleep with her so you will know pay the price for that mistake for the rest of your life.
If you are old enough to play, you are old enough to pay. In real life there are no “do overs.”
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You missed my point completely and you also make it with your post. I have no objection to men being held responsible for their children I also demand that they have equal rights to go along with the responsiblities. In this country they do not…. not even close.
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It will never happen until they are capable of carrying a fetus to term.
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That is correct, men cannot have babies. We are deprived of giving birth to a human being.
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I have twins and triplets. I can’t imagine my husband carrying them to full term. That would have been something to see. The swelling, the backaches, and the constant need to pee would have driven him mad. He was there for me though and I thank God for that.
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The old cliché, with which I agree, is that if men had to give birth, we’d be extinct.
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flyingnurse and others. Glen and Glenn are two different people. On many issues he and I do not agree. We do agree on this one. On the other hand, many of you with whom I disagree on this thread, I usually agree with on other issues.
My opposition to abortion (in almost all instances) is only partially due to my religious beliefs. I don’t believe I’d think any differently if I were an atheist or agnostic.
Theologically, I am not certain that the unborn child has a soul. If it does, then certainly God would take that baby to heaven so it would be better off than being born. However, that could be said of children after they were born, too.
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The best way for you and Glen to be recognized as different people would be for you to find some kind of Avatar to place by your name. Basically any picture will do. Mine isn’t an actual drawing of me, just one I found that I thought conveyed the real me pretty well….An old guy who doesn’t take crap from anyone…
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Well I do have a white beard and stach, and sometimes wear that grouchy look….Hey! Maybe that is me and I just never knew someone made the drawing…Hmmmm
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horse hockey
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Considering I have been using the same avatar for years and Glenn has none, and spelling of name is different (my opinion but I think us one “N” Glen’s are smarter than the two “N” Glenn’s) it should not be at all difficult to tell us apart.
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In my theology (Southern Baptist) the child does indeed have a soul. God knew us before we were conceived. We might have been late to the game but He wasn’t. You are also correct, if aborted, that child is absent the body & immediately with God.
People get so wrapped up in the here & now we forget about eternity.
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Does your god know all the multi-millions of fertilized eggs that passed through the woman and never attached to the uterine wall?
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Exactly, Tundrabeast. Everyone’s ready to jump down the throats on pro-choice people, but once those unwanted kids are out of the womb, pro-lifers are quick to vote republican and say “Oh no, now those kids are not MY problem.”
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The little buggers can damn well figure out how to over come their life at that point…No longer their concern.
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I would applaud your sarcasm, but I just spent an entire election cycle arguing with people who believe that very thing
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I was on your side in regard to those issues, flyingnurse.
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Well now, heaven forbid that we as a society promote self control and self discipline in our adult members! AFter all, people are gonna make babies all over the place…so our ONLY option is to snuff them out after they are created. My goodness, I don’t see this reactionary mindset doing anybody much good. Fact is that you can’t talk about abstinance or self control because its too judgemental. So basically the behavior occurs first…and then the most horrible of all reactions afterward…and then simply explain the abortion by the circumstances at hand as though the individual played no role in the pregnancy. I wonder how many folks reading these posts would recommend that THEIR daughter go out and do whatever they want with their bodies…because there’s a shot or a procedure that can undo the damage after the fact? I doubt there’s many. I bet most of you would recommend a more disciplined approach to lifes everyday temptations…I bet you’d also teach your children to accept the consequences of their actions. An abortion is not accepting the consequences…its destroying them, so that there’s no proof leftover to make you feel bad later on in life.
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“I bet you’d also teach your children to accept the consequences of their actions.”
As my posts above show, I am all about accepting responsibility for your actions. That is why I get so many thumbs down. I am not a big fan of unconditional love. I believe people make choices; good ones, bad ones, and everything in between. There is no victimhood in choice.
All of the choices we have discussed have consequences. What separates me from other pro lifers is I do not feel the need to make other people’s choices for them. I just stand ready to help them pay the consequences of their choices.
Abortion has many consequences. Most are not visible. I work in a profession that is populated by women (90%). Just like society over half are single parents. Many (married or single) have had an abortion sometime during their lives. Surprisingly guilt is not the major emotion you would imagine. More than anything they wonder what could have been. To me that would be much harder to live with than simple regret.
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Ultimately that is what led my niece to have her son. She didn’t want ‘that’ child to be her only child. While I respect some of the opposing opinions here on this topic, I also know that what you say “Surprisingly guilt is not the major emotion you would imagine. More than anything they wonder what could have been.” is very accurate.
Again where you and I are going to differ is ‘the accepting the consequences’. I think having to live with the thought of having an abortion can me much more traumatic than other alternatives.
I also wonder how many people here advocating for pro-life live their lives by ‘Judge not lest ye be judged”.
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Oh good grief. I hardly know where to start. So a full-term baby should be considered “consequences?”
I am grandmother to two wonderful ADOPTED grandchildren. I honor their mothers, who made their decisions. I am not going to second-guess other women on their own very personal decisions.
I don’t care where they came from: they’re MINE MINE MINE!
By the way, my granddaughter is so beautiful that the entire family is already practicing giving her the following advice: women have more sense than men. Girls have more sense than boys. Boys are ruled by hormones. Do not obey their hormones.
And if that doesn’t work, my son has taught her to deliver a very nice roundhouse right.
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I am the father of 7 boys (4 biological & 3 step) & 2 grandsons (you cannot buy an X chromosome around my house). I tell any female who will listen: if a boys lips are moving confirm whatever he says with at least 3 independent sources. In other words don’t trust them
On the other hand being a nurse has given me some unique insight into the XX crowd (there were 50 girls & me in school). They are almost as irresponsible as boys and twice as catty. They too are capable of making bad choices on the basis of hormones.
Except in the case of rape, it takes two too tango.
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President Obama famously said in the 2008 campaign that if one of his daughters made a mistake, he didn’t want them punished with a baby.
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Are you still back there in 2008, chins? Yes, for a teenager, “punished” is probably apt. I think most women, if the election results from 2012 are an indicator, got his drift.
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Who is being punished? The teenager or the baby? That is still barrys stance whether it is 2008 and now.
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In many areas women might have more sense then men, but often it seems that women practice more comon sense then most men. When you divide up what each does the idea of “More sense” becomes totally relivant to the tasks. In some cases it might be women and in others it might be men. My point is to drill in a blanket statement like that might come back as a problem…..But here’s one you might want to put forth…Young good looking women who allow themselves to get by on their looks too much might find that to be a huge problem when their youth leaves them.
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Question for the folks arguing here–why does the USA have such a high teen pregnancy rate compared to other countries? See: http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/…/TBR_InternationalComparison.pdf
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I can’ t bring up the link.
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In America we believe in treating problems after they occur. Prevention has never been our strong suit. NOTHING in the medical model is geared towards prevention. EVERYTHING doctors are taught is reactive. You have to leave the medical profession before you find any institutionalized proactive teaching.
We also believe in putting our heads in the sand. We believe if we tell little Johnny to keep his pants zip he will. We are even more blinded with little Jane.
We take them both to church every Sunday, prohibit violent video games in the house and never let them see anything that is not PG-13. Yet for all of that we still fail.
I am not talking off the top of my head. Besides spending 30 years telling 15 year olds that no, they don’t have the flu, and no they are not a virgin like they told me, that yes they are pregnant … I worked for a youth pastor for several years.
Our claim to fame: we were the first time that a group made it from 8 grade to HS graduation without one pregnancy. We made a certificate of achievement and hid it in our office.
Working with the kids (who are much cooler and smarter than their parents ever knew or gave them credit for) taught me a lot. Mostly it reminded me of what I already knew: beyond a certain point your job as a parent is to pretty much hold on. They are making choices whether we like it or not.
The kids need information. I got the parents to sign a permission slip, and I invited them to sit in on the class (they were not allowed to speak). Then the youth pastor gave them God’s truth and I gave them the AIDS, STD, birth control lecture (complete with all the good pictures) that the school district would not allow.
I was very honest with them. I told them I layed awake at night worried that they would make bad choices. My sleeping pill was knowing that if they made the wrong choice it was not because they did not have the information they needed to make the right one.
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They zapped your link……The thought police will be visiting you tonight now…
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Your link doesn’t work, but I bet it has something to do with all that binge drinking among teens who have been reared in homes where alcohol is not used and, therefore teens have no models for moderate use of alcohol. Or maybe not….
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I know this isn’t actually the topic, but how about the other end of life? Allowing people to decide for them selves when to check out if they have a terminal condition? People who insist that everyone must live until they die on their own regardless if they are living a painful, bed redden, or vegative life because some book that was written years ago by what was the Shamans of their time….Are basically being selfish and unrealistic in my opinion. Death at the other end should be a personal decision and not controled by the religious beliefs of some. Nobody should have to be forced to continue living if living is a deterrorating living hell…..That’s just wrong.
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Oregon passed an assisted suicide law quite a few years ago. Interestingly, few people have actually taken advantage of it, but many report feeling better knowing it’s there in case their situation becomes unbearable. So just knowing you have the power to pull the plug legally has a positive effect.
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As a nurse I am not allowed to Kavorkian you (see the discussion on the Hypocratic Oath above). That is not to say I am required to try & resuscitate every single living thing.
DNR are the three most misunderstood & too frequently used letters in the English language. As I nurse I was trained how to help people die: preferably at home, as far away from modern medicine as humanly possible.
Oftentimes when we try to do everything, instead of helping, we are hurting those we love.
I can’t sign on to assisted suicide, but I am all over death with dignity.
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Typo: should read frequently misunderstood & underused letters in the English language
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I do think Kevorkian was right in assisting those who needed it. Two thing that really irk me is first the stopping of food or fluids so the person in a comatose state will wither away. Second is that the current laws won’t allow us to show at least as much compassion to humans as to animals by allowing to induce a drug that simply “puts them to sleep.” Any of us should have something like that in our living wills…..I mean we should be at least as humane towards humans as we are to our pets shouldn’t we?
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It is the whole kill you for gain thing; & the Catholic Church. I give the Church props, they are at least consistent. No killing on either end. Also, a great many Catholic Religious are anti capital punishment.
Another fun fact: you cannot be a DNR in prison. Too many people worried that the state will be accused of trying to kill prisoners off to save money.
You know I couldn’t make that up if I tried.
When I was in California I took care of an open heart bypass patient who was on death row. Prisoners have a constitutional right to healthcare. We don’t, but they do.
America was always big on making sense
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There was a news story not too long ago, how the State of Minnesota, was sending prisioners to the Mayo Clinic for medical care.
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Someone has to be the guinea pig. Someone has to be the first live subject for a student, got to go beyond the cadaver at some point.
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Like I said, prisoners have a constitutional right to healthcare. They are one of the few groups that does under our system
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I’ve actually hear of Death Row inmates who were on suicide watch……HUH???? As well as getting revived if got trying to kill themselves. I guess they basically have to or possibly face law suits from families….But how foolish.
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Don’t pregnancy and childbirth carry risks too?
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True fact. Not trying t,o be a smart alek. It was not until the late 1950, early 1960 that heart disease & breast cancer surpassed childbirth as the #1 killer of women in the US.
Blended families are nothing new. They have been around for millennia. The difference is in the past they were not caused by divorce; rather the premature death of one of the partners.
Because of the rate of peri partum death, it was not unusual for a man in the Revolutionary period to have 2-3 spouses during his lifetime.
Back then, till death do us part, had a completely different meaning time wise compared to today
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Yes, pregnancy and childbirth have risks. That is why having and raising children is a sacrifice called LOVE.
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What if God sent into the world, a baby who was to grow up and find a cure for cancer, but that baby was aborted?
God, with the help of a male and female, send babies into this world.
No one, except God, determines who lives and dies.
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You answered your own question. God will not be mocked, His will will be accomplished.
He decides who lives & who dies. You can bet your bottom dollar that is not the child that will be aborted
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So your version of a god doesn’t have the strength, wisdom, or willingness to place that soul into a different vessel coming into the world? That seems like a short coming you believe you version of god would have. Face it…you can throw out theories based on your religion left and right, but in the end they’re no more valid then a wild guess…No way to know, and no wy to prove…
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That is the definition of faith Tundra. No way to prove.
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You are contradicting yourself here. Either nothing happens without a reason or it doesn’t. Either god is pulling all the strings or he’s not. If someone has an abortion, did god intend that or did he not? Can’t have it both ways.
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Does God allow evil? Yes. Is God sovereign? Yes. Does man have free choice? Yes. How does this all work? Beats me. People much smarter than me have tried to figure it out & failed.
I am not a man who feels the need to make God understandable & predictable. He is God. I am not. I believe in Him. Sometimes He makes no sense to my little mind.
The problem is with me not Him. I can’t program the DVR. I’ll leave running the universe to someone more qualified.
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I was raised a Catholic (Or as some say..I’m a recovering Catholic) Those non explainations for questions regarding how or why questions was what gat me questioning everything else. It always seemed a bit too pat to me that the hard questions basically came down to a dieties mysterious “Plan.” A plan that somehow hasn’t shown to be very well thought out if what we see is some sort of plan. A question that never made sense was why do those who cause so much suffering in the world are allowed to continue if the primary religious philosophies are true? If a diety dosn’t do more good old fashioned smiting against such tyrants to relieve all that suffering then I have to wonder if that diety is really much interested in us at all….Or is that diety too busy winning sports games for teams to pay attention to getting rid of tyrants?
Yes I am cynical as hell when it comes to religions, but generally I don’t give it much thought because I’m usually on a you live your life and I’ll live mine. But when people of religion try to make all rules based on their religiious beliefs, then I get riled.
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Flyingnurse although I am certain that when you were drafting your post you thought you were showing a complete absence of any arrogance and showing your true humility. The irony is that your post is about the most arrogant post I have ever read. In summary, if you (or at least someone else) can’t figure it out than it must be beyond understanding and therefore attributable to God. I don’t understand DVRs either, but that doesn’t mean that there is a God any more than not understanding the theory of relativity, not understanding how the universe began or any of the other millions of things that escape my understanding. Everyday science advances and problems “beyond understanding “ get solved. I find it very arrogant to believe that just because there are unanswered questions in the universe God must exist. Personally, I don’t know whether or not there is a God and I am hedging my bets by living according to a moral code that I believe will satisfy a just God. However, I will not conclude that there is a God simply because there are questions beyond my capability to answer. If that were the case, my first calculus class is definitive proof there is a God. It is not rational to conclude simply because there are questions that remain to be answered that there is a God.
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Joe,
ALL OF CHRISTIANITY is based on one word: faith. By definition faith is “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” We were never meant to understand God. We are incapable. We have neither the hardware or software required.
That does not mean I do not contemplate the great issues, it just means I know in the end I will not be able to reconcile a loving God who allows evil.
My # 2 son is gay. When he came out his senior year in HS I was like “duh,” I’ve known since about 20 minutes after your birth. There is no doubt in my mind he was born that way.
God, the same one I worship, does not approve of my son, yet He made him. Can I figure that out? Not lately.
One big push to “understand” or “explain” God is then we can control Him. Marx was absolutely correct: man has been trying to make God in his own image since he first got kicked out of the garden (or climbed out of the primordial soup -whichever you prefer).
God does not play by our rules. He is not neat, tidy, and predictable. Some consider calling God capricious is a sin. I am not among them. To our eyes God is very capricious.
That is not because God is evil, we just do not have all the information we need to make a judgment; to understand.
Look back through time: diseases caused by evil spirits, the earth is the center of the universe, man is the most intelligent and highest order of being. Each assertion was made using the most up to date knowledge at the time. Each was also completely wrong.
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Flyingnurse, simply inserting the word “faith” does not change the arrogance of taking the position that because we may not understand why something happened it is attributable to God’s plan. For example, your son is gay, your version of God apparently doesn’t like gay people, you can’t figure out why God would allow such an inconsistency, so your conclusion is that it must be part of God’s plan. “Faith” is just a crutch that relieves organized religion from the burden of having to provide explanations. Similarly, your assertion that “God does not play by our rules. He is not neat, tidy, and predictable . . .” is again very convenient because it relieves organized religion of any obligation to provide an explanation and, even if it does, relieves it of any obligation to be right. While I don’t know if there is a God or not, I am certain that just because something doesn’t have an explanation doesn’t mean it happened because of divine plan.
On a tangentially related note, I find it odd that you believe you believe your son was born gay and believe that your God does not approve of gay people. You conclusively stated that “man” has free choice in your 12/1/12, 8:54 a.m. post. Interesting that God would create your son without the choice to commit that particular sin; or do believe that your son was born that way but he can change? If he can’t change God gave you a son that must commit a very particular sin without any choice of his own. I can see where you need “faith”.
One last thing, if there is a God I sure hope that he doesn’t care whether or not Tim Tebow “Tebows”.
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It’s both interesting and amusing how these topics eventually end up being a discussion regarding faith, religion, and of course the actual existence of a supreme conscience referred to as God. It’s inevitable because while one side insists society is breaking their Gods strict dictates there’s others like myself unwilling to accept such dictates on blind faith (Which is a damn good album, but has nothing to do with this..Just saying)
One thing that does stand out to me is while many religious people seem to think there’s so much anger towards their religions (Primarily Christian) that they never seem to understand that their insistence for everyone to adhere to their dictates is primarily the problem.
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I love those “what if” questions. So, what if:
the born child would become a serial killer
the born child would get abused by a parent/step-parent
the born child would grow up to be a liberal
Hmm. The “what if” argument doesn’t seem to get us anywhere!
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What if I could give you more than one like on that one….It’d be flooded…
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Are there any parents who have said, “If I could go back in time, I would’ve chosen to abort my child.”
Maybe I don’t get out much, or maybe some people think that, but are too ashamed to ever say it out loud, but I’ve never heard anyone say that. You hear about guilt or regret for having an abortion, but never for not having an abortion.
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I guess it comes out in other ways generally called “Abuse” Study some abuse cases to get a sliver of a glimps of what a living hell is for some of these unwanted kids…..Then discuss how every unwanted pregnancy is a touch of heaven…
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I can see your point. However, it would make more sense as an argument if abortion was illegal. “If it was legal, I would’ve aborted him, but since I couldn’t abort him, now I will abuse him”.
I’m not trying to come off as snarky, just saying that abortion hasn’t eliminated child abuse. Has it reduced it, maybe. It’s just as likely that it has reduced the number of good productive people. Maybe it’s even increased child abuse (ie. life is not seen as sacred if it can be aborted in the womb.) I don’t know.
If the best we can do to reduce child abuse is abortion, we’ve got big problems.
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It’s legal, but not actually available to all mostly because of cost. The point is if it were no longer available to any but those wealthy enough to go out of country then we’d see more of this
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I wasn’t aware people bore unwanted children due to the cost of an abortion–I’ll look into that. I thought most abortions were actually performed to low income people, not the rich.
If that is in fact the case, I would think pro-choice people would provide them at little to no cost through donations and such. Maybe they do? Similar to how pro-life people give money for counseling, women’s homes, adoption efforts, etc.
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Most abortions have been from within ehat we once referred to as the Middle Class. I think services like the big scary Family Planning might have helped low income women, but otherwise $500 to $1000 or more is a lot of money for low income…Especially teens….They often are stuck with them. Stats have shown that is often the beginning of the end for education or any typ of upward mobility in the job market (This is both lower and middle class) compared to those who didn’t bring a pregnance to completion.
What’s the number one reason for women to get an abortion? Because they, and/or the male involved know they have nothing to offer towards bringing a new life (Once it becomes an actual life) to completion. Most often they’re right. Neither have anything financial to bring to the table, nothing prepared for a future that doesn’t look like poverty ant one level or other.
I have no real stats about the people who generally are aopposed to all abortions, but from listening to them I suspect they’re generally people who were brought up in housholds that might have been modest or maybe wealthy, but generally not improverished. They had families who were supportive and for the most part life seemd pretty fair to them so in that bubble it’s inconcievable that anyone shouln’t have all births brought to term. When in reality many of those births are being sentenced to a life that might be anything from damn tough to hell on earth…..That’s the reality of many the situations Not a Hollywood happy ending reality in many cases. Here’s another reality…Outlawing abortions wont stop abortions, just make them more dangerous.
Have a little faith in this god you all seem to have such faith in…The soul will still be born…Just someplace else….
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deo, I can’t understand how what you wrote got “dislikes.” I’m over 60. I’ve been a teacher for nearly 40 years. I have had countless discussions with parents within and outside of the educational system. I, too, have never heard a parent of any child say that they wish they had opted for abortion instead of given birth. On the other hand, there are countless women who have had abortions who regret the choice they made. (As for religion–Can they be forgiven? Absolutely!)
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I asked earlier why the USA has such a high teen pregnancy rate, but the link I gave didn’t work (sorry). Try: http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/resources/pdf/FastFacts_InternationalComparisons.pdf
Me? I think religion has a lot to do with it — but others may have other ideas?
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According to that chart, I would say having the word ‘United’ in your country’s name would be the number 1 cause.
(My post below was supposed to be in response to Tundra’s post at 3:17…..my bad).
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Maybe it is a lot more to due with cultural issues than anything. If you visit any of those countries listed in the top 10, they aren’t as ‘Puritanistic’ as the UK and US. Also notice that the bottom 5 all used to be part of the ‘Kingdom’ at one point and time in their history. (well except Portugal. I guess there are out outliers in every theory. But then I guess that being Puritanistic would be attributable to religion now wouldn’t it?? lol.
One of the first things that I experienced as a young man when I was lucky enough to visit Europe was the openness. There isn’t as much ‘mystification’ about what sex has what first billboard type sign I saw has a naked man and woman on it. From my time in the military I experienced many swim parks that had his/her sauna’s and showers.
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Actually, most (57%) women who had abortions were low-income…according to the National Abortion Federation, albeit from data collected in 2000. Your first ‘stat’ is just your opinion, which is fine, as long as you present it as such. Paragraph 2 ‘What’s the number one reason….” According to the NAF, not what you claim it is.
I get your points, but don’t present them as facts please. It takes away from your argument.
I agree outlawing abortions won’t end them.
What gives you the idea that an aborted soul will be reborn someplace else? Like re-incarnation?
Switching topics, I’m friends with a married couple with 3 children. The oldest is a healthy, happy, 4th grade boy. His parents were told that based on pre-natal screenings, their best option would be to abort him, as he would never be a ‘normal’ child and would have developmental problems. I can’t see one thing wrong with this kid (he’s a smart, athletic, good looking kid), but the experts, with all their education and knowledge, were wrong. No real point to this story, just wanted to share.
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Much anecdotal second hand narratives belong in the category of “rumor”. But thanks for sharing.
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You are welcome.
So, my friend telling me a story about what happened to him is second hand rumor??
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I did say, “What we used to refer to as Middle Class”. The bar has been moved considerably higher so many that were considered Middle Class are now often listed with Low Income…..There’s also several levels from borderline to impoverished. Those from the middle of that scale and below usually have all they can do to provide for themselves. So there’s not anything left for medical regardless what the situation.
As for what might be considered a soul. That’s the one fact that keeps me from being a total atheist. That energy we know as life that is present in all living matter seems to be our one binding connection to each other and every other living thing on our planet. Now one can say that the swimmers an eggs have a life force, and that’s true, but will right to lifers want those protected at all costs too (I already know your answers Catholics)? Most will see that as a bit over the line. A fetus hasn’t developed enough to survive outside the womb so it isn’t actually living other than as part of the female at that time. Once it develops enough to have life force (or soul) than its alive.
I don’t believe in a supreme being directing all this, but if a soul was slotted to one place that was vacated before life force slipped in…Then logically it’d slip into another available vessel. I can’t prove that any moe than your religion can prove theirs, but there you have it
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In New York City, 59% of black women’s pregnancies end in abortion.
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And 95% of white males will end the answer to the question, “How many childern do you have” with “That I know of….Har, Har” It’s ok…I pulled that out of the same orifice you pulled yours out of
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NEW YORK (WABC) — Eye-opening statistics about the rate of abortions in New York City have been released by the Health Department.
It raises questions about the effectiveness of current birth control education.
41% of all New York City pregnancies end in abortion.
Broken down by race for 2009:
Specifically non-Hispanic Blacks have a 59.8% abortion rate.
Hispanics have a 41.3% abortion rate.
Asians have a 22.7% abortion rate.
And non-Hispanic Whites have a 20.4% abortion rate.
The fact that 41% of all pregnancies in New York City end in abortion is not a secret and it’s not anything new.
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If that affiliate is getting real stats, then on one hand it’s too bad that there’s so little prevention going on in those groups. On the other since the cost of living in NY City is probably the highest in the country, then an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy for people who might not have much to bring to the table of parenthood at the time is probably the next best act of responsibility they can do. Most of them know they don’t have anything to offer at the time for many different reasons. Many of them see the results of unwanted pregnancy brought to term when there was nothing to offer as parents and know they and the child brought to term would likely end up the same or worse. Especially considering all the homelessness in abundance in places like NY City……A factor we don’t see here so it doesn’t add to the equation very often…In NY City it certainly does……That could be them on the street with kids they can’t afford to feed or give shelter to (I’m speaking across the board even though the article was reffering to minorities)
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Tundra, is the truth about abortions in NYC surprising to you? Your response to the truth sounds like your pulling it out of a certain orifice…
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Abortion stops a beating heart.
For all you commentors on here, that think you are god, in determining if a baby should die or not, consider this:
If you were having a heart attack, what if the people present considered themselves as god and refused to call an ambulance and perform CRP on you???
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Really? So once out the fetus should be able to live independently right? I man if its a living being at that time then it should be able to get hooked up to machines and grow right? Or is it more like a parasite at that point and only exists through a living host?
When it’s time for that soul to be born…it will be born someplace. Might no coincide with your religion, but is very bit as valid of a guess as religions guess
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Perhaps you, or FN, or another Christian here could explain who is responsible for spontaneous abortions, what we euphemistically call “miscarriages.” Or again, all the millions of fertilized eggs that never adhere to the uterine wall. Or the stillborn who die in the womb. And please, don’t fall back on the default that your god is incomprehensible to our puny brains.
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The one that grates my teeth even as a Christian is that is all part of ‘The Grand Plan’.. I look to both the Bible and Science for my answers. Neither of which has been able to answer when the soul enters the body.
Most Christians today insist that it happens at conception. They have no biblical basis for this assumption. I prefer not to believe that concept, because then my God would be committing soulacide literally millions of times every day. While I do know that I cannot know what he knows, I seriously doubt that someone who put so much thought into the creation of man would be so wasteful.
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I respect people’s religious beliefs. I do not respect what has been done based on those beliefs, whether it be the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Moslem invasions, or the strife betweem Moslems and Hindus in India. Religionists have to come to terms with their beliefs on a whole gamut of issues: abortion, capital punishment, homosexuality; nevermind the doctrines that separate Lutherans, Sunnis and Shiities, and Mormons.
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In ancient days, wasn’t “quickening” (the mother-felt kicking of a fetus) required before a fetus was considered human?
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Gene D, I guess the easy answer to your question would be God if you’re a Christian, nature to other people. Nothing lives forever. Human life dies as old people in nursing homes and as 17 yr old car accident victims, and as fertilized eggs and stillborn babies. Does it matter when we die? If we don’t destroy the ‘parasitic clump of cells’, some of them will die before they are born, and some of them will die when they have lived for 100 years.
Apologies if I missed your point.
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