OUR OPINION: Grand Forks needs a state-of-the-art library
November 10, 2012 at 11:14 pm in Grand Forks Herald
Grand Forks needs a state-of-the-art, 21st century library, a center of lifetime learning in a knowledge-intensive world. And the library board should commit to it. Continue Reading
Gene called it several days ago.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Whoa, Tom, let’s reign it in a bit. We voted against an expensive new library just last year. Listen to the people!
“maybe it’ll be like the DOK Library Concept Center in Delft, Netherlands… ‘the most modern library in the world.’”
Seriously? We’ve now gone to discussion of building a rival to ‘the most modern library in the world’??? No, Tom. No!
“Maybe it’ll be like the new James Hunt Library on the campus of North Carolina State University.”
“Maybe it’ll be like Drexel University’s Library Learning Terrace, which has no books at all.”
Maybe since you’re talking about University libraries, maybe UND will update its Chester Fritz Library, and I can stop getting irritated by your attempts to cram this expense down taxpayers’ throats.
These things cost MONEY. Money that comes from taxpayers. Taxpayers who have had ENOUGH of this city’s outrageous spending.
Tell you what: I’ll vote YES for the new library if you open up bid estimates to more than one firm, and get REALISTIC project costs in detailed writing. And just so we’re on the same page, let’s put the budget ballpark around $10 million or less.
By the way, how much money did these World’s Best libraries that you mention cost?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Tom will this dream library of yours last more than 40 years? That is the real shame here. That and the poor location.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Ol Jesse Ventura had a damn good take on that when he was Gov. and some were saying that theVikings dome needed to be replaced because it was too old. He said something to the effect that if that 40 something year old building is too old then I guess we better start looking at St. Paul where there’s many building more than 100 years old. I guess they’ll have to come down too then if they’re too old…..He might of been a bit out there on some stuff, but other things like that he was right on the money.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Public libraries are obsolete.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“Grand Forks is a Knight community, one of only 26 nationwide. So, Knight specialists stand ready to help a Grand Forks library project succeed.”
Translation: the library will be built…no matter what. Will of the people be damned. Just like the Alerus, City Center Mall and the original 2 lane Columbia Road overpass that was obsolete before it was built.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Historically…You’re absolutly right…It will be built regardless if its been shot down……Now if that big coporation that owns the Herald wants to step to the plate and pledge to cover at least half….Maybe we’ll consider it….
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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The library with its 850 visitors per day, is the most visited public facility in Grand Forks. I think everyone agrees that the existing library is poorly located and in poor condition.
If we are going to build a new library, we should do it in a way that provides the most bang for the buck by making it a catalyst for revitalizing an area of town that could use a shot in the arm.
Here’s an idea: http://www.engagetheforks.com/i-heart-the-forks/i-love-our-dilapadated-library
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Engage The Dorks? Really? I can’t go to that site. It would be like infiltrating enemy lines.
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I read this comment in a completely different way after reading your response to Schurkey.
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He said PLEASE three times. Three times.
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850 visitors/day?
That’s 70 visitors/hr.
That means every minute someone walks in the door.
Source?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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“On average 850 people visit the GFPL each day. And each day, over half of these
visitors check out 2,400 items. The rest of the visitors use an estimated 1,000 materials
within the Library or use one of the 33 public computers with Internet access,
and/or attend one the 128 programs sponsored by the Library annually.
The library users come primarily from Grand Forks city and county, but also from
the larger five county, two state region.”
GF Public Library Needs Assessment, Nov 23, 2009
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Well done, sir, I commend you. Hardly anyone keeps going with me when I poke ‘em.
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Ugh… “I think we can all agree”…. whenever I see this statement, makes me disagree even more just because of the implication. I get enough of that from the president…
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Welcome to Grand Forks politics just keep bringing up the issue until you get your way. Guess what Grand Forks your getting a new library because that’s what the powers that be want. They just won’t stop bringing the issue up until it gets approved
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Didn’t we already flog this pony?
1. Yes the library needs improved/replaced
2. We do not need a Ralph
3. Libraries are no longer stacks of books but technological hubs. If you propose something with less than 50-100 computers, a commiserate number of printers, & more than a few scanners & Apples with a graphics suite; me your biggest supporter will go door to door against it.
4. Libraries are the great equalizer. Rich & upper middle class either do not need them or can drive to them. Either buy up that field in front of the one you have now for parking & expand into the present lot or build north. Using excess elementary school space is a great idea.
5. We need improvement, but face it: since we are not pee wee hockey we are not going to get 1/2 of what we need. Do not waste money redesigning stacks. If the government said you need to widen the isles lose paper books (cut the collection), widen the isles & replace what you threw out with decent database & e book purchases. Mucho cheaper in the long run
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“sell paper books (cut the collection), widen the aisles & replace what you sold”
FTFY
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The main reason why people go to the library, even today, is because is the best place to get their hands on something valuable – a book or two or more. The library is the one place people can go where an abundance of information and reading material are still available in printed form – and it’s free as long as you return the items when you are dong using them.
The purpose of a library has always been to offer information in printed form. That should always be the purpose of a library. Don’t let this historic facility go down the tubes by filling it with technology. That is already all around us. We need a place to go where we aren’t so overwhelmed by it. Some people actually go to the library to get away from technology because we are already too overwhelmed by it outside of the library’s doors. It’s kind of like a “retreat” where one can go to relax that is “almost” free from the inundation of technology.
Some people think technology has made life easier, but it really hasn’t. It has made it more stressful, more chaotic, and even more dangerous.
Another thing to consider is that printed material is necessary for those school assignments that require students to do their own research. Yes, the internet is full of information, however, when we utilize it, we aren’t really doing any work ourselves. Others have done the research, put the information together, and made their information accessible to others. So, in all reality, when you utilize the internet, you are not doing your own work. Someone else did it for you. With books, however, you actually have to read and research to get the information you are looking for. Every student should be required to use an equal number of printed materials as they are required to use electronic resources for their reports, term papers, etc. But, neither our government nor our education system care that they are dumbing down students by requiring so little of them.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Do you still see many farmers planting large acreage with an ox and a plow?
Why not? it worked.
Oh, because the world moved on. The Library is the Ox and Plow.
Moving on….
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What you are describing is generational. I too love the feel of a book. That does not mean I am not going the way of the dinosaurs. Libraries are information. How that information is delivered changes with time.
As I have repeatedly said, libraries are the great equalizers. They bring the information to those who would otherwise not have access to it. Information really is power.
The new/refurbished library must have an overabundance of technology, not less. I love the “33 public use computers.” Most of the computers at the GFPB were acquired when Bill Gates was just a millionaire, not a billionaire. I used one the other day to look something up that was made when Joe Biden was still getting his hair transplants.
It is obvious that the people of GF think that “playing” on the computers is a waste of resources (as they sit at home “playing” on theirs). Sure, a lot of time is wasted on Face Book, but after the FaceBook and My Space comes the real work: getting the information they need.
Since I am a professional student, the library to me is a place of solitude. It is where I study. I have everything I need at home, yet I cannot get anything done because my mind equates home with YouTube and the library with serious work.
The library is for dispensing information (and blunting the effects of poverty in the process). It is a place of quiet contemplation. These functions are as vital as ever. How the information is dispensed is secondary.
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I have a question for the library board. Why didn’t you start a fund raiser about five years ago? What are you waiting for? The money to fall in your lap?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Didn’t the previous library director pass away about then? The board, if I read right, had to work on replacing him. Also, hasn’t board changed since then? All new members?
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This article does a perfect job of framing the issue, “Right now, the point is this: what should Grand Forks do about its obsolete and deteriorating library? Should the city renovate or build new?”
The author claims that the building is obsolete and deteriorating, but offers no evidence. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but I don’t feel there’s enough evidence. One bid from one contractor is not sufficient evidence to believe that something costs X dollars and that’s that.
I agree with flyingnurse, and I think a lot of us naysayers would be willing to reconsider funding a new library if more bids are solicited. Bids should include, if possible, preventive maintenance life cycle analyses. That is, at what point will the current building no longer serve the purpose for which it was built? How long can we expect to be able to maintain it until a catastrophic system failure (electrical, HVAC, roof) renders it functionally useless? Compare the cost of that maintenance to the cost of a brand new building, divided by how long we could expect that brand new building to last (with it’s own predicted preventive maintenance costs/yr).
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Agree with Money too.
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There seems to be quite a history of very limited bids whenever they want to build something…….I doubt if it’s some buddy buddy thing right? Just funny how that seems to work though.
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” the Community Foundation of Grand Forks, East Grand Forks and Region, The Chamber and the city of Grand Forks have set up EngageTheForks.com, a website to encourage residents to talk about community issues.”
“Here’s an idea: http://www.engagetheforks.com/i-heart-the-forks/i-love-our-dilapadated-library”
Will SOMEBODY…ANYBODY…PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE log in to engagethesocialistforks.com and tell them to STOP SENDING UPDATES to Schurkey? I’ve been banned from engagethedorks.com since September, and those boneheads STILL flood my emailbox with updates and warnings even though I cannot log in.
I’ve sent a dozen emails to them asking them to stop…without so much as a reply. Just more updates. It is unbelievable how poorly that web site is run. Even aside from it’s bias toward reckless spending, the management of the site is pathetic.
Having said all that–the Library can kiss my tuckus. We voted NO. There is not a thing wrong with the location; it’s near perfect. Right off Washington, centrally-located in the New and Improved Grand Forks; convenient for everyone.
We were told when the building was built that it was INTENDED to be expanded in the future. Too bad the Library Board sold off the land around the library. Would come in handy, now.
I’m not opposed to the library. I’m opposed to adding still more debt to the already-overburdened GF Citizens, when we have ALREADY VOTED “NO”.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Okay … it’s done. If it doesn’t stop send me a message.
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Wow! For a child of the devil you’re a humanitarian. Hmmmm………What’s your pop going to say about that?
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I did it on my off time. I was off the clock.
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Put a collection jar at the door. If the library is important to people who utilize it, they should have no problem collecting the funds that they need.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
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yes spearman, lets put jars at all the intersections for people to put money in for using the road.
Or…. we could maybe just have those using the roads pay a tax, maybe a tax on something like gasoline.
Hmmm, oh, wait… we already do that.
Maybe thats what the guy and his dog were doing this summer standing at the intersections. Not collecting money for himself but maybe he was the road tax collector.
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He was collecting funds to pay for gas to get to work.
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Capt., only 50% of the cost of roads comes from gas taxes & license fees. The rest comes from sales taxes, property taxes & bond sales. Like I said we all pay even if we don’t use.
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No, no, no….Don’t even kid about that. Almost everywhere that they’ve put tolls especially for those reasons have ended up in permenant toll roads. A few years back some lawyers tried to take IL to court to get rid of the tolls around the Chicago area that were originally set up to pay for the roads. their argument was that since the goal was met the tolls should come down. Not only did they fail, but with the transponder system in place the toll roads are stronger than ever. I really doubt they’ll ever get rid of them
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With 850 visitors a day, seems like the collection would go through the roof.
unless that number is hogwash…..
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Captain, the whole purpose of a library is it is free. You cannot be the great equalizer if you charge for your services. Do that and you are simply another retail outlet and have lost your reason for being.
Think public schools. They are free (or are supposed to be) for a reason.
Private schools are for those who can afford them. Public schools insure everyone learns to read even if mom and pop can’t pony up the tuition.
Libraries are very much the same. EVERYONE gets access.
If you can afford it you can get what you want delivered wirelessly while you are sitting on the toilet. If you can’t, you still have an option to get the information.
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The cost of public schools is the same as private schools. Again, the difference is that taxes make up the difference between the cost of private vs. public. IOW the value of a public school education is equal to the the private one. What you pay for @ a private school is for the various perceived advantages, incld., the religious environment, the wealthy parents environment, the racial environment etc.
I believe the tax deduction received by parents sending kids to private schools is an important consideration for their motivation to also pay their property taxes supporting public schools. Is it a wash? I doubt it, but they see the value of segregating their kids form the fallout of a capitalist system that creates a class structure. We need to understand Marx to understand how our lives are dictated by the 1% plutocracy & the 5% oligarchy.
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Public schools are in fact much more expensive than private schools because of overhead considerations and teacher’s unions. Most private school administrators would give their eye teeth to get what the state and local governments give local districts per student. According to the Feds, the average K-12 student costs over $10,000 per year.
I believe in public school because an education is the only proven way out of poverty for the vast (read 90%) of the population.
Trust me, if education did not work I would rather keep my money
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The cost of public schools is the same as private schools. Again, the difference is that taxes make up the difference between the cost of private vs. public. IOW the value of a public school education is equal to the the private one. What you pay for @ a private school is for the various perceived advantages, incld., the religious environment, the wealthy parents environment, the racial environment etc.
I believe the tax deduction received by parents sending kids to private schools is an important consideration for their motivation to also pay their property taxes supporting public schools. Is it a wash?
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FN, it doesn’t cost the individual parent $ 10,000/yr. for a public school education because of state subsidies through local property et al taxes. That is the point you miss. Whatever the cost of a private school education is, the parents pay the whole tab unless scholarships, hardship or otherwise, are a factor. Many private schools cost much more than the $10,000 public school cost. In a public school costs to individual property owners are lower because they all cover the costs incld commercial property. The top privates charge $20-30,000/yr. because only parents of students are covering the overhead unless the school’s private endowment kicks in.
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I get it libraries are free, except for the people who pay for them. I am sorry, but the way I read this comment smacks, of redistribution. The fact is that this topic has to be considered according to who’s paying for it, with the same weight, as who’s using it. And if the payers, aren’t going to be the users…then there’s no NEED for it. I would be paying, but would have no use for it…so that’s one vote. And there are plenty of folks who agree with me. I guarentee you that if the library went away tomorrow kids would still be reading books…they’d source them from their schools or elsewhere. Considering we already have a library that just needs a little TLC, we are pretty fortunate now aren’t we?
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It will take a strong leader to carry this plan forward or it will go nowhere fast, one more time.
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It would take a tyrant to carry it forward since the funding has been voted down in a democratic process.
I cant imagine why we are even still discussing this.
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The thing about a Democracy Captain is your favorite cause or candidate can keep coming back. That is how the system works. Vote once and its over is decidedly unAmerican.
Look at our latest Congressman. How many times did he launch unsuccessful campaigns? To follow your reasoning, he should not be eligible for public office.
BTW I voted for him for one reason only: he made Uncle Al look like the [insert derogatory, pejorative phrase here] he is.
I figure we can always vote him out in 2014. That is how it works. You get to keep voting.
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I get your point, but there’s a lot of people who still feel that the way they did the Alerus was cheap tricks. First they had pizza parties at UND to encourage students who mostly wouldn’t be around to help pay for the building once it was built that this would be really great because they could have indoor football…..Then they put it on an off election cycle where there’s generally a low turn out instead of the bigger election cycle where it was voted down twice. I’m guessing there’s a lot of us who are thinking they’re going to pull the exact same thing on this…….If this is truely something the city wants, then don’t resort to tricks to get it through….Why should you have to if that’s what the people really want?
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The Alerus was a cheap trick and the Wellness center should never have been built with public funds. I agree wholeheartedly.
The difference is I view libraries as a legitimate public function. I am ambivalent to say the least about hockey arenas, even though I love hockey.
I am not above horse trading: you want your new indoor arena, you give me my library improvements.
That is how a democracy works.
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TB, seems to me there are 15,000 students still here helping to pay for the Alerus. There are many non students who are no longer here but they voted to build the Alerus & the GF pop. is larger than when it was built. I’ll say again would we be having this discussion if the Ralph hadn’t been built. The Alerus would have been in the black every year except for that. If there wasn’t such an obsession with the free market a deal could have been made between the city & UND to share the entertainment events so both arenas could be in the black. They do it with football so why not with concerts & basketball.
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I don’t use either, but isn’t the Ralf primarily hockey? How does that compete with the Alerus?
Besides….. Two reasons people were opposed was the cost (Which went way over estimate) and that those who had the most to gain was getting it built with tax money and nothing more from them. Business wants a big red money pit to make money off…..Then put up more
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TB, most of the concerts that happen in GF are @ the Ralph. Those by themselves would have put the Alerus in the black not to mention the Shrine Circus & Cirque desole like shows, eg Trans Siberian orchestra. The list goes on.
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Democracy? Nope… representative republic…that means that the people speak through representatives…and once the people speak and their opinions are presented, then its over. It shouldn’t mean that the same issue keeps coming up year after year because some beuracrat decides there’s too much money at stake to let it go. Because, lets be honest here…its all about somebody spending money.
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Grand Forks has an opportunity to build a state of the art library to meet the growing needs of the community while interest rates are low. This situation will not last for ever and Grand Forks should take advantage of the cheap money while it lasts.
Grand Forks is a center of learning including the great school system and the University. It should invest in the future of our community and build a library that serves todays user in the best way possible. The library is a cheap form of knowledge and entertainment at a time when the going is tough for families. It’s an afordable place where people can read, research, listen to music, read magazines and newspapers and watch movies and documentaries.
Every time I go to a library I love to see the excited look on childrens faces when they near the libary doors. They are hungry for knowledge and the stimulation that makes their inquisitive minds grow. It gives them positive ways to spend thier time instead of sitting in front of the TV and being bored at home. These’s no better investiment in the future than the library and now is the time to make the investment.
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So, because children are involved… we should throw money at a project by the fistfuls. Does anyone but me see a trend here? We are in serious trouble financially in our nation because of this approach. Use the children to get the money, no matter where it comes from or what the purpose. The children are NOT going without a library. They are going without a new library. I bet those books read the same in a new or old library. The only difference is, the parents of said children have money left in their wallets to pay for gas to get them there. For the record, I have two children, and would prefer that people worry about their own kids, rather than using mine as leverage for fed, state and local expenditures.
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Can we agree that a library is *not* what can be done on the web, or is likely to be done within five years?
With great respect, Mr. Dennis, your article condemns its conclusion that we need a new library as you wrote a lot of material that can be summarized as “We don’t really know what a 21st C library is.”
If we are going to spend millions, should it not have a beneficial effect, not like the Alerus Center and the other recent boondoggles?
For instance, for far less, we could put up civic wifi in the downtown resurrection area. Read about WiMax here,
http : / / http://www.computerworld.com / s / article / 342126 / City_2.0 ? taxonomyId=13& pageNumber=2
Personally I would not go running off to hire a firm from Minneapolis, but I don’t have the chronic inferiority complex resulting in paying people from afar to do what we have the talent to do ourselves, such as the recent home page fiasco of a local education institution.
We could do this ourselves enhancing the downtown area, our skill sets, and saving money. Sure it might take a little longer and there might be some errors, but we would do, learn important skills, save money, and start to gain a reputation as a can-do city.
– rant-ish…
Otherwise you are telling me we in Grand Forks don’t have the wits to do what the small, rural, Beauregard Parrish Public Library did ten years ago. To anyone who says that, I say, “You lie!”
http library beau org
– End of rant.
Until we get consensus on what we are buying, who it serves and how, let us do some public planning.
Otherwise we have to have discussions about pigs and pokes and we are likely to botch it up again, enriching only those power people who have recently bought the land for the city to expand the library onto.
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Ooops, links are allowed. Sorry, here they are:
Beauregard Public Library civic web: http://library.beau.org/
WiMax info:
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/342126/City_2.0?taxonomyId=13&pageNumber=2
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Adam S. says, “Otherwise you are telling me we in Grand Forks don’t have the wits to do what the small, rural, Beauregard Parrish Public Library did ten years ago. To anyone who says that, I say, “You lie!”
http library beau org
Beuregard Parrish is a county library in DeRidder Louisiana, pop. 10,000 with a metro of 85,000, almost as large as GF. This library system has numerous branch buildings. What is your point? They have added many internet services but still have a physical infrastructure. How do you think it actually differs from the GF library. Probably not much. I live in a suburb of 25,000 in MSP. My town was the 1st town in the US to make the whole city wired for wifi 10 yrs. ago. I can sit in my backyard & have wifi access for $20/mth. Many can’t afford that fee much less a computer. We still have a county library that provides that service. Hard copies of newspapers & magazines are also provided for the majority that can’t afford to pay for online subs. & you think wiring DT GF can replace real brick & mortar libraries?
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Why spend the money to build a library? Is the internet broke? Oh there ya go……Stomp your feet and have a tantrum until you get your way then!!
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The internet doesn’t replace books. You can buy books on the internet but you have to read them on a Barnes & Noble Nook or Amazon’s reader where you have to pay to play. Libraries offer books for free which matters to the increasing #s that can’t afford the electronics or the purchase of ebooks. The automation & commodification of knowledge/books by the internet is just a further example of the colonization of our lives by corporations. Real research is not done on the internet but from actual whole books that public libraries make possible.
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See? This is the problem nowadays…the word of the people doesn’t matter. These folks KNOW that if they keep beating the dead horse, eventually it’ll give in to their demands. We voted on this didn’t we? And the answer was NO!!! Take the hint and figure another way and don’t waste our time and money on any more studies etc. We have a very small library in our town… I mean SMALL…and somehow, someway, my kids are able to find books and read them. We didn’t wait for a bigger library, we found a way to bring the books to our kids…maybe thats something that metro GF could do as well.
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