Report: Updating Grand Forks library costs $13.9 million
November 7, 2012 at 11:30 pm in Grand Forks Herald
Architect Lonnie Laffen said that if the cost of the renovation is more than 60 percent of the cost to build new, then building new is usually the better option. The estimated renovation cost of $13.9 million is 67 percent of the $20.8 million estimated cost of building a new library in 2011. Continue Reading
Here we go again, another push by the Herald for a library.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
44 
22
I’m ok with that. $14 million is a far cry from $21 million.
What disappoints me is the money is being spent in the wrong places. As a nurse, and the brother of a special needs adult, I am a firm believer in the ADA. I simply question their interpretation. There is more than one way to skin the ADA cat.
Accessible parking, wheelchair ramps, and accessible bathrooms: obviously. They should have been in place 15 years ago. This is a no brainer.
As for the shelves, how about a person assigned to the patron to get the book for them? College libraries use $7 an hour work study students for this exact purpose all the time. I know, I used to take notes and get materials from the library as part of my work study funding.
ADA does not require you redesign the universe for the benefit of those with disabilities. It says you must make reasonable accomodations. What is reasonable and what is not is ultimately up to the court.
I can tell you right now there are several areas of the Chester Fritz that are not ADA compliant and they have effective work arounds in place. The public library could do the same.
Don’t waste money on massively expensive and not very useful physical plant changes to an older building. Use those monies elsewhere. More bang for the buck.
When you eventually get a new building, then engineer the necessary changes into the new building. Much cheaper.
Hot debate. What do you think?
19 
16
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
12 
22
Work study students are not employees. They are slave labor.
Which leads me to librarian pay. Most of them have a master’s degree. Pay them accordingly. Where everyone screws up is you do not need that many of them. Most of the jobs in a library can be accomplished with elan and aplomb by a $7 an hour flunky.
You do not need a master’s degree to reshelve books. You do not need a master’s degree to manage the $7 an hour flunkies.
You need a master’s degree to plan future events, teach classes for the patrons, stay abreast of the latest trends, and help serious people do serious research.
The problem is not with the degree, it is with how it is used.
Like or Dislike:
10 
19
So can stocking shelves at walmart but we cry about slave labor and living wages when it comes to that.
Like or Dislike:
14 
6
I am not saying it is right, just reality. If I was in charge of the library, and responsible for getting the most bang for my buck, that is how I would organize it.
When you work for any corporation as a manager (the city/county of Grand Forks is simply a corporation with an exceedingly inefficient way of doing things because it is beholden to the public) you receive a budget and it is your job to make it work.
I can complain all I want about how unfair it is, but in the end those are the dollars I have to spend to make my little slice of heaven function. Would I do it differently if I were king for a day? Sure. But I am not, so I use what they give me.
Same was true when I worked at Altru. I told them what I needed. They told me what I would get. I don’t ever remember the two being the same.
Like or Dislike:
7 
6
I’d just tie their legs to the floor and let feed them old books and magazines.
No need to pay them.
Like or Dislike:
6 
13
I love how you are always condescending to the $7 hour “flunkies” FN. Not everyone has the resources or time that you do.
Like or Dislike:
17 
3
Clint: you misread concern for condescention. $7 an hour is the modern equivilant of indentured servitude. It is a hole that is almost impossible to get out of. Remember the old song “16 tons?” “You load 16 tons, and what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt. Saint Peter don’t you call me because I can’t go; I owe my soul to the company store.” That is minimum wage servitude.
You do not solve the problem by outlawing minimum wage jobs (if you forced every employer to pay $15 an hour and provide benefits, the cost of everything would just rise to the point that $15 an hour is the new $7 an hour). You solve the problem by giving people the skills they need to move beyond them.
As for time and resources; you forget, I am not Berg. I have a Master’s but I rent because instead of a mortgage I am paying student loans. I drive a car with 120,000 miles on it. I am working 84 hours this week alone to try to meet my obligations.
In life you make choices. I used to be an EMT earning $3.90 an hour. I decided I was not going to do that and got rid of everything (including a live in girlfriend) that did not help me achieve my goals.
It is still America. We all make choices. I did undergrad and grad school while working overtime to make sure my child support got paid. It is not fun, but it is doable. It is all about what you want.
Like or Dislike:
6 
8
Honest question: how are bookshelves supposed to be ADA compliant? I’m sure I’ve been in lots of libraries with at least some books stored over my head.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
36 
2
I guess the new shelves can’t be taller than shoulder-height.
Here’s a thought: If you’re in a wheelchair, ASK FOR HELP instead of suing to lower the shelves.
ADA is overly restrictive, the appropriate solution is to revise ADA instead of blowing enormous amounts of public money on counterproductive and burdensome “fixes”.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
36 
7
Wow, I was about to fire off a rant, then I decided to do some research.
http://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/ask-ala-librarian/ada-and-libraries
Shelf height is unrestricted.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
19 
1
See the discussion above about skinning the ADA cat
Like or Dislike:
10 
4
I am assuming Mr. Laffen of JLG jacks up the renovation price to push the sale for a new building. Let’s get some other bids.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
30 
11
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
20 
33
Well this is one case where your assumption could make an ___ out of you…. Besides, what do you mean, “bid”? I’m not sure you understand the process. What would a bid do in this case? It’s not like the cost estimate is some secret formula or anything – it should be readily available and verifiable. Why don’t you go get a copy and spend some time checking the costs. Or better yet, “bid” on it yourself.
Like or Dislike:
11 
15
As one who has worked for a contractor, I second shopping around. Soliciting multiple bids almost always results in securing a lower price.
Furthermore, not every contractor is willing to just let everyone know what a great deal he can really get on certain materials and services because of his connections. That sometimes needs to be a well-kept secret.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
20 
1
Looks like I hit some nerves
JW.
I am a frequent patron at the GF Library. I understand the need to meet the ADA requirements. As far as building an addition, let’s be real the major draw over there IS THE COMPUTERS. Remove some of those old dusty books and get rid of the DVD’s that are not educational this should open up enough room for wider aisles, install new floor coverings and bookshelves and repaint. BOOM library is renovated.
Arleigh,
Those upgrades of $8.1M will vary by contractor and products. Unfortunately, I only have professional experience for one of the services I mentioned above. As to your helpful advice, I would be more than happy to provide a bid, however something tell me Ms. Wendt has her mind set on a new Library.
Maybe I am getting old but seems to me the citizens of GF have already spoken on this Library issue?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
22 
5
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
9 
22
FYI -JW’s assumptions are different than accusations.
As for what I do at the Library, I am not an internet user, I don’t check out re-runs of friends and most of my research can be done via internet. My visits to the Library consist of reading books to my children and checking out books for them at home. My visits on many occasions have confirmed parking is good, busiest section at the library is computer banks and DVD rentals, not my idea of essential use for a local library.
Can you dispute estimates for renovations will vary by contractor and products? For me it seems obvious Ms. Wendt has her mind set on a new library location. Ms Wendt comment “If you’re in a wheelchair, these books might as well be on the moon,” Fact is JW’s the employees at the Library are more capable of assisting a disabled patron with a book on the top shelf than reserving a flight to the moon.
Now for you facts JW’s, please enlighten me. Perhaps you might change my opinion and a few others.
Like or Dislike:
15 
2
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
4 
18
JW: since I am a proponent of a new library, I have no problem telling you that your are all wet on this one. Sit down and be quiet! You are hampering the chances of the necessary changes ever being made by exemplifying the very attitudes and behaviors that got the whole thing voted down last time.
Modern libraries are technological hubs. The printed word (books on shelves) occupy less and less of the average library’s daily activity. That is a plain and simple fact. If you doubt the veracity of my statements there are several very good library and museum science professors I could put you in contact with.
As I stated above, I do not have a problem spending the money. I simply believe it is being spent in the wrong place.
It would be a waste of time and money to commit the majority of the funding for a new extension to rearranging the bookshelves. Any new extension should be an internet cafe on steroids. A minimum of 50 computers, fast (T100) broadband, and ample printing.
Most new aquisitions are not books, but ebooks. Several libraries now check out kindles. Wasting shelf space on books is very last century.
DO I AGREE? NO. I LOVE BOOKS, not e readers. Am I smart enough to see future trends? I was 2/3 on the election. Better than Captain America by 100%.
Libraries are the great equalizers of society. Rich people do not need them. Poor people are the ones who need them. They do not have computers and internet. They cannot afford to preorder the next best seller off Amazon. They have to hope someone gave a copy of their needed text book to the library so they can save $100 this semester.
Since the library is about poor people and not hockey, it is doubtful the people of GF are going to give what is needed. That means we have to use what we get wisely.
Building an infrastructure that is already outdated is poor stewardship
Like or Dislike:
11 
16
“I was 2/3 on the election. Better than Captain America by 100%.”
Go ahead. Kick a man when he’s down.
I see how it is.
Thats ok though, Obamacare gonna bandage me right up, just got to get in line and wait to be triaged.
Like or Dislike:
14 
7
Touche’ Captain. Touche’. I surrender the field. That was great.
Like or Dislike:
9 
3
Baby step the project and save $7 million. This is real money. I believe Mr Laffen knows his business but in today’s economy can we continue to do things the way we did before? A 33% savings is substantial in my opinion.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
21 
3
Another honest question: can libraries purchase a license to distribute a single copy of an e-book to multiple users, or must they pay for each user? Are there systems in place in other libraries that promote e-books as a cost-effective alternative to books? Seems like that would help to mitigate the issues of the handicapped navigating narrow aisles, the perceived need for new space, and the unwillingness of the majority of Grand Forks residents to pay for any of it.
Like or Dislike:
15 
2
The EGF library has ebooks. It’s on their web-site.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
19 
1
I may be waaaaay out there, but why are GF and EGF not pulling resources together by way of allowing residents to use each other’s libraries. Is that so horrible? We may be in different states, however, the north end of GF is closer to the EGF library than the one on the south end. Could the two cities come up with some sort of agreement?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
26 
2
Maybe gf residents would feel like they are losing their identity if they have to come over to egf to use anything.
No wait; that’s just an excuse some egf leaders use so they have a reason to be against the interconnect. Another chance to pool services and save money that is going down the drain because people are stubborn.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
25 
3
I use the EGF theater and it doesnt seem to make me feel bad.
Its just a bridge, once you cross it you dont really feel any different…
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
23 
3
A while back I checked into rates for a person from out of town to get a library card. GF was $25 and EGF was $10. I joined the EGF library. It’s a nice place and I like the downtown location.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
21 
1
Oh you are so off. This is the link to Grand Forks Public Library card questions page. It is $15.00 per year for out of county residents.
http://www.gflibrary.com/FAQ.aspx?QID=58
Like or Dislike:
6 
7
“a while back…”
Like or Dislike:
7 
1
Well, I have been in Grand Forks for close to 15 years and it has been that way for as long as I can remember. I guess your ‘while’ back was a LONG WHILE back.
Like or Dislike:
6 
7
C’mon Scarface! You are off by a whole $10.
Thats just crazy talk.
Like or Dislike:
9 
3
Thanks for pointing that out scarface. And Capt….that was exactly my point. Gf people don’t worry about losing their identity. It’s an eastside problem (for some).
Like or Dislike:
8 
2
The Grand Forks Public Library has a system called “Library2Go” where they distribute e-books, audio books, and videos to check out. You are allowed to DLed them and use them for a few weeks then return. You may check this out at the library website. I use it all the time for some things, other things I check out from the main library.
Like or Dislike:
13 
4
The problem with only ebooks is that not everyone has a reader for them – mainly those who are usually the disadvantaged folks who use the library because they cannot afford to buy their own books.
Libraries pay considerably more for a book – it’s not like they can go to the store and buy a book and put it up. They pay for multiple users through licensing fees.
Like or Dislike:
12 
0
They pay what through what? What are you talking about?
Like or Dislike:
2 
8
Libraries buy books from publishers – not Walmart. Publishers know it is a library purchasing and the library will lend the book many, many times so they put a price on that.
And recently the publishers decided to limit the number of times an ebook could be loaned before the library had to buy it again. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/business/media/15libraries.html?_r=0
Like or Dislike:
14 
1
That’s a spot-on contribution to the conversation.
It should be noted, though, that the article states that _one_ publisher, HarperCollins, decided to limit the amount of times an e-book could be checked out – 26 – without being repurchased. And that was over a year ago.
The library e-book business model seems to be evolving and not-yet-settled. Here’s the American Library Association’s recommendations to the publishers:
http://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/e-content/ala-releases-ebook-business-models-public-libraries
Like or Dislike:
10 
1
Okay, the e-book portion of your answer I understand because I have read about that. But when it comes to in print books, I think you are off. I have worked in many a book store, and in one library in my very long life. Libraries buy books and put them on the shelve. Sometimes publishers sell them to libraries at a discounted price because it a library and sometimes they sell at full price. Oh, and sometimes patrons just donate them. Either way they just go on the shelve.
E-books are the problem out there. Publishers feel that a book can go out so many times then have to be replaced because it wears out. E-books aren’t that way so publishers are trying to stick it to libraries.
Like or Dislike:
5 
5
Kind of like Blockbuster.
Lose one of their rentals and that sucker will cost you $100 even though its only $15 at walmart.
Its just a scam to charge people more that will be making money off of the product as opposed to just buying their own copy.
Like or Dislike:
12 
3
While I have no doubt you mean well JW you are once again factually incorrect. Ask the librarian next time you are there to buy a book as a memorial (they put a nice sticker inside the book saying it was purchased in memory of …) you will find the cost astronomical. When a library purchases a book for its permanent collection, it does so with the knowledge that it will need repurchased. The cost of a memorial includes repair and repurchase costs.
E Books save libraries a ton of money in the long run because of not having to repair or repurchase nearly as often. That is why the publishers have started to crack down. They are losing money!
That said, publishers themselves are going to more print on demand (high class laser printers) and e books. They realize that paper is on the way out.
That is why I say again, do not spend several million dollars to upgrade something that is quickly becoming obsolete.
Like or Dislike:
6 
2
It’s going to be just like the Alerus center, keep voting on it until the ones that don’t want it get tired of voting.
Like or Dislike:
21 
7
The estimate is undoubtedly the result of the Library Board’s shoot-for-the-moon wish list. And, Bob is right, GF has a long history of getting expensive boondoggles by having the proponents simply apply a strategy of wearing down the opponents. That the desire is for a 19th century model of brick and mortar in the 21st century makes no difference.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
22 
5
And there is Gene! So in your opinion, and I am not saying knowledge, you think the library board is shooting up the cost of updating the library because they want it all fancy smancy. Tell me Gene, do you go to these “open to the public” library board meetings or is it just easier to sit at home and make things up?
Like or Dislike:
10 
14
I’m saying the Library Boards does what all publically funded bureaucracies do when seeking funds: pad the bill and expect a decent percentage of that. Face it, the library has generated horrible PR for itself. From the choice of a site to what the head librarian makes in comparison to the serfs who work there to the apparent lack of interest in the opinion of the public. All this springing from its obsession with a new building.
Like or Dislike:
19 
5
Maybe we could put an indoor pool in the back.
Then again, maybe its already factored in and thats why the cost is so high.
The Grand Forks Public Library and Waterpark.
Now im getting interested…..
Like or Dislike:
13 
8
I’m not really against the library nor funding a new library. What I am against is building another grand building on the south side of Grand Forks. It is too far south and I would NOT use the building for the same reason I am not going to get a membership at the NO CHOICE WELLNESS CENTER. Yes the library is outdated and it needs some improvements. The Park District was able to raise enough money to build the wellness center, why can’t the library board do the same? Maybe start a fundraising campaign and see where it goes. Many people I speak with are in favor of a new library. However, they voted NO for it because the location was not specific and they did not want it down on the south end of town. I would be more receptive to a new library if the board would come and say look, we’ve raised half the cost of the new building would the city consider the other half. $13 million seems on the high side to renovate and add on to a building. Maybe some more quotes are needed.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
24 
3
I don’t know…After seeing the estimate of a new pool on the east side I can believethey’d want 13 if all they’ve said that needs to be done is done.
Here’s a question though. They say that since the cost for repair is around 60% of what a new building would cost that it’s generally wiser to go new. In it was your home and the house was structurally sound enough to las many more years….Wouldn’t most of you do as I would and take the 60% remedy over the 100%? I mean if they weren’t talking about that magic money that comes out of thin air called Tax Land and had to raise funds for this don’t you think the 60% plan would be far more than a good deal?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
22 
2
If I had to borrow the money and pay interest on it I would most certainly go with the cheaper option. I would fix the existing building before adding on to it. Pay off that debt and then plan the addition.
Like or Dislike:
15 
1
Your premise is faulty because it isn’t a question of what you and I would do. GF governments have shown on numerous occasions that when dealing with taxpayer money, they will do what they wouldn’t if it was their own money. Grandiose projects are easy to carry out when citizens are paying for it.
Like or Dislike:
18 
5
That’s my point. They speak of going new in this situation as though it just makes sense, and that we should see it that way too. Unless there’s some regulation regarding getting loans for government projects that makes them go new in such a situation then it’s faulty logic.
Like or Dislike:
10 
1
What the heck!
Lets go all out and give them 50 million to build a new library.
Anything worth doing is worth going overboard for.
Lets find out what the people at the Library of Congress are getting paid and lets increase our staff workers to 10% above that. its colder here in ND they deserve it.
Then lets go ahead and double the property taxes so we can easily pay for it.
Maybe after all this we will have a really cool building for future generations to consider going to before realizing that Libraries are ancient relics that no one would miss if they all were destroyed tomorrow.
But hey, i’m on board for whatever the MAJORITY of the citizens want regardless of wether it makes sense or not.
Its obvious i have too much money and need to share it.
See, i can learn from watching how people vote too.
Hot debate. What do you think?
20 
12
I looked it up a while back and, unless it’s changed, the Librarian of Congress makes $197K. Which makes Ms Wendt’s salary for running a small town library look pretty good.
Like or Dislike:
14 
4
Exactly, we need to get her a cool 250k minimum.
Have you ever had to deal with Childrens storytime? OMG!
The Library of Congress Librarian doesnt have to do storytime. ((Unless Reid and Pelosi visit)
Pay the woman, its only money!
Like or Dislike:
12 
8
JW … your attitude has turned me off this project.
Like or Dislike:
12 
3
A levelhead is needed when you want your pet project pushed through.
Like or Dislike:
9 
1
you dont reckon the “W” stands for Wendt do you…… Seems awful passionate about a new library.
Like or Dislike:
14 
4
I think a new or improved library is needed, however, I think it should focus more on computers and children. In Grand Forks, we really do not have too many places you can take your kids to occupy their time, especially in winter. Yes, there is Choice or the CanadInn, but, realistically, these places are fairly expensive and they offer the same activities. The library is a place where kids can play and learn. We should move away from the traditional library and focus more on a modern one. We have a family membership to Choice, but my children still enjoy going to the library too.
Like or Dislike:
13 
7
The library is not a playground. I don’t have kids. Why would I want to pay to build a playground for yours? You had them. You pay to entertain them.
Hot debate. What do you think?
16 
19
It is not a playground. There are educational games. There is entertainment for adults, like bars (hey, strippers were at the ho last night). I guess children don’t deserve any type of entertainment. Your ideology is flawed. You saying build my own playground would be like me telling every person who wants to drink to build their own bar.
Hot debate. What do you think?
18 
13
Just do like everyone else.
Get the kids an X-Box.
I hear HALO 4 is pretty awesome.
Like or Dislike:
11 
8
My kids actually have an X-Box, a PS3 and a Wii. They rarely touch any of the consoles.
Like or Dislike:
6 
7
Ha! I bet more folks would be on board if they could borrow Halo 4!
Like or Dislike:
7 
2
No. I never said anything of the sort. Taxpayers aren’t asked to build bars or pay for their upkeep. If parents want additional activities for their children they better start a fund raising campaign to pay for them.
Like or Dislike:
13 
13
I must assume you were against the Alerus Center and do not use that facility as it costs taxpayers, or is it solely because I said kids need more activities in this area?
Like or Dislike:
14 
9
That’s not how it’s done in GF. The SOP is for a small group to come up with a whim, and expect everyone to satisfy it. That’s why we’re getting an uneeded new elementary school despite a 30% vacancy rate in the current ones.
Like or Dislike:
15 
7
I must assume you are against public schools because children learn and play there, but it costs taxpayers. Under your ideology, parents must build their own schools and hire their own teachers. Yes, they could send their kids to a private school. I must assume that you went to a private school growing up. If you went onto higher education, you must have went to a private institution, not a public one like UND. If you did not go to private schools, then it is okay for you to utilize taxpayers money, but not anyone else?
Like or Dislike:
9 
16
I am against the cowardice of the school board in neither closing down northend schools with low enrollment, nor saying no to southend parents about a new school. They ended up trying to satisfy both, in typical GF fashion. Again, it’s easy when it isn’t your money.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
20 
2
Gene, I agree with that point, but I feel that point is moot when it comes to the library.
Like or Dislike:
2 
9
Strippers and hos were at the library last night?
Dang, i need to go get me a library Card!
Like or Dislike:
9 
5
Capt, you are funny!
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
I’ve often found it interesting that for 1 million dollars as a private citizen i can have a huge solid brick construction done with massive rooms and vaulted ceilings and even have 4 bathrooms installed if i so choose.
And the house would be twice the size of the current library.
But let me try to build a library 1/2 the sizre of that same house and for some odd reason it jumps up to 20 million dollars.
Does electricity flow differently in my million dollar mansion than it does in my library?
Is the foundation poured with a special concrete?
Or do construction companies just start drooling at the thought of making 20 times the cash for the same job because taxpayers arent smart enough to question why?
I hereby suggest we tear down the library and put a real nice supersized house in its place for 1 million dollars.
feel free to fill the living room and den with books and internet terminals and allow people access.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
25 
8
No, but there are different building codes that pertain to public / commercial structures then to residential structures. There are fire codes, electrical codes etc.
In a home all of your electrical outlets will be wire with romex electrical wire. In a commercial / public building all electrical wiring has to be contained in EMT conduits.
So to answer your question, yes your house is different.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
Okay…If people dont like the house/library idea, i have one more solution.
On Amazon i can buy 1 Kindle e-book for $70
There are 66,598 Men, Women, and Children in Grand Forks county. (per census estimates)
If we give 1 kindle to every person along with a $100 gift card for books the cost would be 11.3 million dollars.
Now to go one step further, i’m beytting that you could get one heck of a bulk deal on that many kindles which would actuall make it even less. (dont hear that very often)
At this point, we tear down the existing library whivch frees up maintenance costs and the salaries of Ms Wendt and her staff. The savings just keep coming
And for the best part, we never have to hear about this new library and staff wages stuff ever again.
ANYONE ON BOARD?
Hot debate. What do you think?
21 
10
Good break down. I was thinking prettty much the same thing but never looked up the numbers. Just one thing…The cost would be far less because you basically only have to give that to those who are below a certain income level since everyone above should be able to fork over a couple hundred for at least some of the cheaper tablets….What’s a Kindle? Around $170?
Between that any your point about building some sort of personal structure…(One Million might be a bit low, but 21 for a library or even 13 to renovate….Where do they get these estimates?) as well as how reading media is moving away from paper at break neck speeds really does make this project a very tough sell to the majority of the people today.
Like or Dislike:
12 
1
Tundra,
Actually, the Kindles are only $70 each and that cost figure above is if we gave one tablet to every single citizen all the way down to the 1 year olds.
I figured once the $100 was spent, the people could just buy books they wanted from amazon. some sare pretty cheap at less than $5.
Like or Dislike:
9 
3
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
5 
20
Ah yes, the old default rhetoric that habitually appears on this board: criticize something and it means hate…and in caps this time. Religion-you hate God. Candidates-you hate them. Alerus-you hate it. Measure 5-you hate animals. Libraries- well, you get the idea. Tell me, JW, since this money would be coming out of taxpayers’ pockets, do you HATE citizens?
Like or Dislike:
15 
3
Gene, please correct me if I am wrong, but don’t you work for UND, a public institution? If so, don’t the taxpayers pay part of your wages?
Like or Dislike:
11 
6
A part, not nearly the whole. Last figure I saw, legislative appropriations account for about 22% of the UND budget. Most is through tuition. Now, extending that, maybe an analogy may be established: in the same way students pay for the bulk of their education, maybe users of the library could do the same thing.
Like or Dislike:
14 
5
You make a valid point. However, many UND students also receive Pell Grants, which is from taxpayers money. The Pell Grant helps cover the cost of tuition, so you receive more taxpayer money than you are leading on. It does seem hypocritical on your part, Gene.
Like or Dislike:
9 
7
Why does it matter if Gene is paid by the taxpayers?
Lets face it, there are a lot of jobs funded by the taxpayers but that doesnt mean they cant have their opinion on other taxpayer funded jobs.
or maybe i just didnt understand the question…..
Like or Dislike:
9 
4
Hell…..As a mere ol trucker who travels all over the country I see the advantage of having a grasp on Spanish. Granted it’s bound to be in a lot of he places I load and deliver to, but in general it’s all over the place. Fortunately for us ol gringos most who’s first language is Spanish can often speak English (Although there was a border dock once where me and a driver from Mexico played charades trying to communicate who had which dock assignment Interesting at least). Spanish should be a requirement from grade school because like it or not it is Americas second language. They can try to regulate that, but it will continue to grow regardless
Like or Dislike:
6 
4
I guess I hit the wrong reply button…it was intended below
Like or Dislike:
5 
1
Quite frankly I fail to see the hypocrisy. You’re really presenting an apples and oranges argument. The university is funded in a number of ways; my salary comes from only a few of those sources. The library is funded solely by taxpayers. Now if the library were to charge fees so that users pay the bulk of the cost, I’d be fine with that. As it stands now, the many who don’t go there sudsidize the few who do.
Like or Dislike:
13 
7
I am not talking about just the library. You appear to be against anything taxpayers have to pay for, except for the portion of your earnings thar come from taxpayers.
Like or Dislike:
8 
12
No, not at all. I have habitually said that there are essential services which legitimately are the responsibilty of taxpayers. What has happened in GF over the years, is that definition has been expanded to include luxuries to satisfy the whims of a few. An events center, dog park, and other major expenditure fall within this category. I’ve already commented elsewhere on how city governments view funds as their money, not the citizens’. Gershman would have trouble in plopping down a bundle to build a skateboard park for 20 people, but would never invest a dime of his own funds. The problem with the library people is that they too have that mindset. They have champaign tastes, the people have a beer budget. It’s not having a library, it’s having the library they want that bothers me.
Like or Dislike:
15 
5
Edit: Gershman would have NO trouble
Like or Dislike:
9 
2
So you view your job as a Spanish professor as an “essential service.” A portion of your earnings comes from taxpayer money BOTH state AND federal taxpayer money. Heck, people in Florida are paying a part of your earnings through their federal income tax. I fail to see this profession as an essential service, but I am not against taxpayer money helping cover the cost, because it ends up being beneficial to society, as are all of the parks, schools, trails, libraries, etc. taxpayer money helps cover the cost of. Many students only take Spanish courses because they are required to do so for their degree, not because it is in high demand.
Like or Dislike:
8 
8
If you dont think Spanish is in high demand you should probably start watching the news more often.
My son is in his 3rd year of Spanish and i am encouraging him to stay with it all the way to the end.
As long as the borders remain wide open with no one stemming the flow, Spanish is going to be a mandatory skill set soon.
And thats not me being my normal joking around self. California is already at that point.
Like or Dislike:
8 
4
Working for the university is irrelevant to my criticisms on the library. Please direct your comments to them instead of throwing out red herrings.
Like or Dislike:
8 
2
I agree. I was going to ask why Gene was explaining his salary … once again … just because he is a state employee. Total BS … IMO. At least this time no one has told him to leave town … well not yet.
Like or Dislike:
12 
4
I dont know how kindles work? How do you figure?
I buy the tablet, i buy a book, i download the book, i read the book.
Did i miss something?
Nothing to check out since in my scenerio i closed the library and gave everyone their very own Kindle to own forever and ever. and dont forget $100 worth of free books to start them on their way.
Whats more irrational? spending 20 million for a building that only a small percentage of the county uses or giving everyone the gift of reading for free and they dont even have to leave their homes and i do it for 9 million dollars less.
I dont hate Libraries by the way, i just happen to read and can see the writing on the wall for the end of libraries.
To spend 20 million for a dying institution is not smart. a free Kindle though, thats awesome.
And you think im afraid to speak my mind in public? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Ask the people in here, that is not something that troubles me.
Like or Dislike:
10 
5
I know Spanish speaking is on the rise. The number of people taking Spanish simply for interest is not. I don’t disagree that it should be taught earlier on. What he is saying is that everyone doesn’t use the dog park ot the library, therefore it shouldn’t be funded with taxpayers money. Not everyone goes to UND, and not everyone who goes to UND takes Spanish. Using Gene’s logic, since it isn’t used by the masses, his earnings should not be funded whatsoever by taxpayer money. He created a slippery slope.
Like or Dislike:
6 
7
People who go to UND pay for the bulk of their education, people who go for the library don’t pay for the bulk of their use. As I said above, you’re attempting to change the subject by redirecting the discussion to me. Sorry, doen’t work. If you can explain why GF needs a new library which will be another 19th century book repository, while paper texts are disappearing, please do so.
Like or Dislike:
8 
4
I must have hit a nerve. Your logic is flawed, Gene. Like I said, we need a MODERN library. If you think our library is modern, you have never been there. If you feel that taxpayer money should only fund what is an “essential service,” then UND and your earnings should receive no taxpayer funding. Only police, fire and rescue, street maintenanceand the like should be funded. That is your view, read your post about “ESSENTIAL SERVICES.”
Like or Dislike:
7 
7
And he explained to you that people pay to attend UND. So here we are. Back at square one.
Like or Dislike:
8 
1
You must not be aware of Pell Grants. Students can get a free ride with a Pell Grant. You must not also realize that tuition is subsidized with taxpayer money. If you want to argue that taxpayer money should fund essential services, you cannot ignore these facts. You must then also realize that a college education is not an “essential service.” To argue both points, he is conflicting his own views.
Like or Dislike:
6 
7
Let us not forget about the taxpayer subsidized Stafford Loans most students get. Taxpayers play a much bigger part in this than you two must realize.
Like or Dislike:
6 
6
As I said, you moved the point of discussion from the library to me. You said we need a modern library. Why? The library the board has in mind is an anachronism. Newsweek is ceasing publication of it paper magazine. University depts are going to e-readers. This is just the beginning. The 19th century book repository model is dead as the buggy whip.
Like or Dislike:
10 
5
Gene, I get it. Being a professor is more of an “essential service” than a library. Being a professor at a public university that one must be accepted to is much more of an “essential service” than a library that is open to all. Therefore, UND and all of its employees should have their earnings supported, in part, by taxpayer money. I totally get it now!
Like or Dislike:
7 
6
The employees of UND work and receive a salary. If you can’t see the difference between that and a brick mortar library which, as I said, is obsolete, fine.
Like or Dislike:
9 
4
I am fairly certain that people who work at a library work and get paid too. Not sure what you were inferring there. You are playing both sides. You just ignore the part that benefits yo, but we can agree to disagree.
Like or Dislike:
5 
10
I am fairly certain that people who work at a library work and get paid too. Not sure what you were inferring there. You are playing both sides. You just ignore the part that benefits you, but we can agree to disagree.
Like or Dislike:
4 
7
Taking the argument into UND land really is a bad comparison. Gene and I have had this discussion concerning the proposed new grade school somewhere around South Jr. That’s more within the realm of this discussion rather than comparing to UND.
I can see the logic of putting a new school there now instead of waiting for there to be a bigger demand, and Gene tells me to whizz up a rope with that idea. However I too agree that a huge new library is not necessary when a couple much smaller, cheaper, and primarily set up for computers of all types makes far more sense. You could probably work something out buying up a couple empty buildings or part of a building, fix them up, furnish and stock with computers for under a quarter of the renovation of the current library. Then split the current materials between the two and you’d serve the community better than what’s proposed.
When these kind of issues come up and we hear the estimate I think a lot of us wonder just how much cheaper we could get it done for if it was our money going into the projects. 13 million might not sound that large by today’s standards…..But I still never made my first million (Well not as an asset sitting someplace anyway) so I think a million is still a lot of money
Like or Dislike:
7 
2
Even better that the Kindle (and Nook) can enlarge the print for those who are hard of seeing so they don’t have to use those expensive magnification equipment to read like you do with paper books. Also I know that Kindle (and Nook) have computer applications to which you can download your library, and should be able to use an auditory reader for those who are extreme vision impaired.
Excellent Idea Capt.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
I wonder if anyone can provide evidence of other libraries having been successfully sued for non-ADA compliance? That seems to be a major premise in the argument for investment. From a fiscally conservative point of view, it seems to make more sense to invest in infrastructure than to waste money on litigation, if it comes down to it.
I mean, investing in an ADA compliant bathroom, checkout lane, and elevator all seem perfectly reasonable to me. The “we’ll have to get rid of half our books if we don’t get more space to widen the aisles” is the part that seems to warrant further research.
Like or Dislike:
9 
0
Its just the latest excuse.
Its the whole “Squeaky wheel gets the grease” routine.
I did learn a long time ago however, the “squeaky wheel” is also the first thing that gets replaced.
Like or Dislike:
9 
1
As I stated above, what is or is not ADA compliant is ultimately up to the courts. As long as you have handicapped accessible parking, ramps on your sidewalks, doors that are wide enough for a wheelchair to get through, and accessible restrooms, you will probably pass muster.
Inside it is water fountains, elevators, and reasonable accomodations. That can take many different forms. The easiest form is a non disabled person to do what the disabled person cannot (get the book, etc.).
Computer filters for the visually impaired are expensive compared to regular screens but a drop in the bucket compared to reworking your floor space.
There are many ways to skin the ADA cat. One size does not have to fit all.
The point is the disabled person is not excluded from participating in the activity because of their disability. In other words: common sense. Mission orientation: make it work!
Like or Dislike:
6 
1
I agree wholeheartedly with the no new library on the south in expense of the north. If you accept what I said above about libraries being the great equalizer, and rich people do not need them or even use them all that often, but poor people do; any new library would be solidly in the old downtown area north of Demurs.
At the very least I would like to see two smaller, store front type libraries. One north and one south.
If we did that we would save lots of money, increase the number of rooms for internet and activities (story time, etc.) and serve our diverse population.
WE DO NOT need a Taj Mahal to library science next to the new wellness center.
We do need something that is designed to serve the needs of its constituents.
I am a strong and vocal proponent of a new or at least refurbished library. I think that much is obvious from my past posts.
I will not vote one penny for it without a location and some preliminary drawings.
I agree with Gene that the last attempt at getting money, had it passed, would have ended up with a nice pretty building down south, as far from the people who need it as humanly possible.
Libraries are technological hubs that help poor people survive in a modern world. If you are the average south sider, you do not need to go to the library to use a computer: you have one at home. You can get into your well maintained car to go wherever you need to to get the necessary book for school. You are not dependent on GF nearly non existent public transit system.
If you are the average south sider you do not need the library. The same cannot be said for everyone in GF.
By the way I am an average south sider and so are my kids. Our arguments are not about library access but whether I am going to pony up for an iPhone.
That should tell you all you need to know
Like or Dislike:
11 
1
Gene’s rabbit trail above about closing a north side school dovetails nicely with this discussion. How about 3/4 of the school a school and 1/4 a north side library extension? Good use of an underutilized building. It would also provide the service where it is needed: up north
Like or Dislike:
12 
1
If I’m not mistaken, I remember reading somewhere about a community that did just that- utilized existing public school space to provide library services to the general public after school let out. If I’m not mistaken, they utilized funds earmarked for after-school or literacy programs to hire $7/hr flunkies- ahem, AmeriCorps “volunteers”- who accomplished their mission with elan and aplomb.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
Once you get passed the “but we have always done it this way” mentality it is amazing what can happen. America was not built on people in love with the status quo.
There was a push during Clinton’s time to force welfare recipients to give something back. People rightly surmised that there were many, many jobs that could be done. Everything from picking up trash on the highways to helping tutor elementary school kids to read, to supervising after school activities to volunteering in hospitals. The list was endless.
Why didn’t it happen? The public employee unions viewed those jobs as theirs and demanded that the welfare recipients all join their union and get paid union scale.
An opportunity to give welfare recipients some self respect by making them earn their check thrown away because someone else couldn’t get passed the “we’ve never done it that way” mind trap.
Like or Dislike:
5 
2
I know you lived here before AZ but I don’t know how long. When they built the current library they tore down the nice old library downtown across from central around where the parking ramp is now. Like all the buildings down there it was a well built building with materials like brick, marble, and granite…..Those other buildings will be there for a long time yet…And so would that had they better vision.
They built out there because that was the edge of town at the time. All around there they were gobbling up land for more building. They also put it out where the new high school ( Red River) was going and somehow figured that everyone from the north end could just suck it up and find a way out there. I lived by Belmont school at the time so it went from a few blocks to a mile or so…and that was close compared to those on the north end.
Had they left the one down town after building the new one I think the town would have been better off. After hearing all the wiring and other construction problems this one is supposed to be having I think the old building would have remained good for many more generations while the shoddy low bid construction of this one would continue to deteriorate.
Like or Dislike:
12 
0
That was a great building. They didn’t want to renovate it so they tore it down to add additional parking for Central High School. What a travesty.
Like or Dislike:
12 
1
Thank you. I have been very disenchanted by the way Downtown is used. I have to step over puddles of vomit on my way to work. Please bring the life back downtown.
Like or Dislike:
10 
1
I am sorry to hear that. The downtown area was once a great place.
Like or Dislike:
9 
1
Legalize liquor on the UND campus and the downtown bars will go broke.
Like or Dislike:
8 
1
Why not take it a step further, legalize weed. The students will be parked on their couches and sleeping by the 10’oclock news.
Like or Dislike:
5 
2
Weed has never been the drug of choice at UND. legalization would mean diddily-squat. The drug of choice is beer…Miller lite specificaly. Students don’t like the taste of liquor, with perhaps the exception of Jägermeister.
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
You make some good points flying nurse. However, people in the north gf should consider using the egf library. Gf residents can get a library card in egf and use those facilities. It’s a nice place that has the computers you speak of. Come try it out. We don’t bite here in egf. Well, most of us don’t!
Like or Dislike:
7 
1
EastSide: that is most certainly a viable option. The trouble is it requires getting into a car and driving there. Same problem as southside.
GF has no reaonable public transportation. I am thinking of the older elementary/middle school kid who needs to do his/her homework but does not have a computer with internet at home. Mom works (dad is mysteriously absent) so there is no one to watch them, much less take them there.
You get the picture. Again, my favorite mantra: libraries are the great equalizer. That is only true if you can actually get to them.
Like or Dislike:
5 
3
Flying Nurse, Have you been to the EGF library? It is in walking distance of Central High School…even in the winter. It is DOWNTOWN. If you live anywhere on the north side , it’s not too far. The bus stop near the EGF library is one of the busiest in town. People actually use the public buses to get there. It can be easily done. Now that being said, gf still should update their library.
Like or Dislike:
10 
0
It’s not far at all from the downtown GF area, three blocks from the bridge. No matter where a library is located people have to walk, ride their bike, or take the bus if they aren’t able to drive a vehicle to get there. I swear some people consider the Red River to be uncrossable. In comparison the Mississippi River runs through the downtown area of Minneapolis yet people are able to travel freely from side to side and share resources. I think it is generous of you to extend an invitation to GF residents to use the EGF library.
Like or Dislike:
8 
0
I sell kindles for a living at Amazon.
just kidding
Like or Dislike:
6 
4
You are a bit of a brat Capt.
Like or Dislike:
10 
2
I just moved to Grand Forks. Honestly I have no idea where the library is or what it looks like telling me that the location in the first place is bad. I’m all for renovations, but this new building could be awesome. I have seen quite a few buildings done by Mr. Laffen’s firm and I am always pleasantly surprised, they do great work. How about putting the library downtown. It would be nice to have a place for young people to spend their time downtown instead of getting plowed at the bars which seem to be the only thing in the downtown.
Like or Dislike:
6 
9
LOL See people…even the out of towners know the library belongs downtown. It couldn’t be in a worse location.
Like or Dislike:
8 
2
Downtown is so jejeune. And the north end is going to become a ghetto. No, it’s chique to be in the south end. That’s where the jr high went, where the school district located its offices to, where the new elementary school is going, the wellness center, etc. It’s where the monied class lives. That’s where the library wants to be too.
Like or Dislike:
7 
4
Egf has a downtown library you can use. Just sayin’.
Like or Dislike:
13 
2
Thank you, and I now am a proud owner of an egf library card. As for the South being the place to be, please do me a favor, read ‘The Death and Life of Great American Cities’ -Jane Jacobs. In-fact, check it out at your local library.
Like or Dislike:
6 
1
We don’t need a new library location PERIOD! For those of you who want a library downtown, take that thought a bit further. Where downtown would there be adequate space for a building that size and parking to accommodate?
The citizens of GF already voted NO on this issue, let it rest. The library in GF is sufficient in size and location. For godsakes if and that is IF the library needs to meet ADA requirements and do some remodeling, then do it, but do it in a frugal manner.
Like or Dislike:
5 
5
Sorry Cit: in my humble opinion you are wrong on this one. The library is most definitely not adequate. That is not really in dispute. What is in dispute is how to address the problem.
The fact that there is a problem is pretty well established.
Like or Dislike:
8 
6
Maybe so FN, I respect your opinion.
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
Gene D says, “Gershman would have trouble in plopping down a bundle to build a skateboard park for 20 people, but would never invest a dime of his own funds. The problem with the library people is that they too have that mindset. They have champaign tastes, the people have a beer budget. It’s not having a library, it’s having the library they want that bothers me”.
Gershman basically pd. for the Empire Arts Center out of his own pocket.
Like or Dislike:
8 
2
Gene D. says, “People who go to UND pay for the bulk of their education, people who go for the library don’t pay for the bulk of their use. As I said above, you’re attempting to change the subject by redirecting the discussion to me. Sorry, doen’t work. If you can explain why GF needs a new library which will be another 19th century book repository, while paper texts are disappearing, please do so”.
UND students don’t pay the bulk of their tuition. The real cost of a UND education is no different than a private college. Think about it. The State & Feds subsidize the cost of the difference between a public college & a private one. The real cost of an education @ UND is about $30-$40 grand/yr. just like a private college. The private college covers its infrastructure plant costs by high tuition & alumni contributions. @ UND, Gene, your overhead & you salary is paid for by everyone’s taxes ,both fed & state.
Like or Dislike:
6 
4
That is what I was attempting to explain! Thank you!
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
25 yrs. ago Watertown S.D. became famous for opening its only HS @ night to facilitate the public’s use of its computers & library after the regular school day was over.
Like or Dislike:
7 
1
Libraries are like everything else they need to be upgraded to meet modern demand . By the time Grand Forks finally makes a decision on what to do with the library the cost will be much higher and interest rates will be higher too. It’s foolish not to invest in the future by ignoring this important initiative.
Kids, young adults, adults, students of all levels and researchers need libraries to improve their knowledge. People find books, magazines, newspapers, movies and music and can access them cheaply from the library. They are open to everyone regardless of wealth or status. When totalitarian regimes take over the first thing they do is destroy the libraries so the people no longer have access to the truth. An outdated library does not serve the broader community well and the community suffers. Make a decision and start work to improve the library.
Like or Dislike:
9 
4
Capt. says, “At this point, we tear down the existing library whivch frees up maintenance costs and the salaries of Ms Wendt and her staff. The savings just keep coming
And for the best part, we never have to hear about this new library and staff wages stuff ever again.
ANYONE ON BOARD”?
Hey Capt. , why don’t we just automate all jobs so we don’t need to pay anyone wages?
Like or Dislike:
3 
2