Grand Forks Dem to demonstrate against bishop’s election message
October 26, 2012 at 12:25 am in Grand Forks Herald
Kate Kenna, a lifelong Catholic, career social worker and political progressive, called on others to wear political buttons to church Sunday to raise awareness of the need to vote with their conscience, not what the church tells them. Continue Reading
Perhaps these people need to find a religion that better reflects their beliefs. I’m guessing anyone wearing a button won’t be receiving communion.
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Here’s the thing, though. Some people realize that their personal religious beliefs should have little or no bearing on the law. For example, a Catholic might believe that homosexual sex is a sin, but they might also believe that there is no reason to make a law about it. They may also believe that gay people should be allowed to legally marry. That doesn’t mean that they believe that their church should start marrying homosexual couples.
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Romney gives 14% to charity and Ryan over 10%-first year of vp biden he gave .2% ( 2 thenths of a percent) because like all good liberals he feels it is the governments duty to take care of the needy.
Republicans may not all tithe-but they give a heck of a lot more than democrats to charity.
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Spectator: you are 100% wrong; on both assertions.
To take your arguments to their logical conclusion: Catholic mass would still be in Latin, parishioners would not be allowed to read the Bible (without a clergy member available to interpret, it was felt that lay reading of the scriptures was too dangerous; too many opportunities for error), and most Catholic Religious would still be cloistered. That’s just for starters: John Paul II would never have become Pope & proponents of Vatican II would be burned at the stake.
The Catholic Church has always been about change. If it was not, it would have become extinct centuries ago. Does your Mass on Sunday morning resemble the Middle Ages?
As for communion, withholding the Sacrament for anything other than unrepentant sin is against church law. Remember back during the abortion debates there were several Priests who said they would withhold communion on the basis of a person’s voting record? There was a big blow up & just as quickly it went away. That was because Mother Church squashed that behavior quickly & effectively.
The Sacrament belongs to God, not some Bishop with a political axe to grind
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I guess whether or not you are allowed communion would depend on who is on your button.
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Over the decades it appears that, among many Christian denominations, the development of buffet religion has taken place. That is, observe the doctrines you like, dump the ones you disagree with.
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Being an ex catholic is looking better all the time…
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Maybe the Catholics churches should pay taxes forcing them to shut down their schools and their charities, then you and all of us will start paying more taxes..
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What in the WORLD does she or other people expect?!? He isnt using any names, just trying to guide the people….ITS THEIR JOB to do this!
stupid.
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It is their job to guide you to a life of Christ. It is not their job to dictate political policy.
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he didnt ‘dictate’ though. If he did, he would have told us who to vote for etc. He did not. He is simply guiding us to do what is right in Christs’ way. Which is what his job is to do.
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Go to Sunday mass in the great medieval European cathedrals. They’re empty except for a few widows and tourists. They’ve taken to charging admission to get in when mass isn’t served. Christmas and Easter are the only show-up days.
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So, 25 people dislike the fact that Catholicism in Europe is moribund?
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Let’s consider the truth shall we? The bishop apparently reminded Catholics that their faith is not a hobby. It is integral to their whole life and if you are Catholic it should influence everything you do. Wow, what a shocker. If a candidate directly oppose things that all Catholics are supposed to believe, regardless of party affiliation, then Catholics should consider that fact. Wow, what a shocker. The bishop did not name party or names. He just said some things that anger liberals, such as abortion is wrong. Wow, what a shocker. The Catholics Church has the right to participate in the public square and use free speech rights. Certainly Catholic bishops have the right and obligation to remind Catholics of the teachings of the Church, at least they do for now. There are plenty of bigots, their argument seems to be “shut up.” Not going to happen. You are going to have to make us.
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That’s all well and good. Do you suppose the Archbishop of Boston ever criticized Teddy Kennedy for his support of abortion? Or that there was any doubt Bobby Jr. was going to get his annulment so he could marry his secretary?
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Can you please tell us when the Bishop is going to offer up other files?? You know, those ones like the Boy Scouts offered up? If the Catholic Church is so adamant that we all live our faith why DON’T THEY LIVE THE FAITH?? When is Justice going to happen?
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Mav, you are right on subject as always-not..
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Really? I think I’m right on target.. A hypocritical organization puts out a letter telling its members to live a godly life and to make sure they take it to the polls, but has yet to do so itself. They attempt to put out amendments to the state constitution but continue to hide priests who should be on trial in other countries.
The worst part is.. faith believing Catholics let them because heaven forbid if the church should gasp.. ‘shun’ them.
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I agree….but some people don’t want to be reminded of the crimes against children that were committed. It makes them uncomfortable.
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Gene, he should have, but the bishops are learning to be more definitive. Yet when they are you get uncomfortable.
maverick, of course this has nothing to do with the abuse scandal. You only bring it up because you can’t actually argue against what the bishop actually said. It illustrates the poverty of your position. It is to bad that coaches in Pennsylvania, scout leaders, and liberal journalists on the BBC are bound to celibacy, right? You have been following those scandals that have nothing to do with Catholicism? One might even get the idea that such scandals are not found in only one tiny segment of one particular religion. That would be a “maverick” thought wouldn’t it?
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You don’t find even priests who committed abuse arguing that abuse is a moral thing. Although those involved in the BBC scandals have in fact said that. Heidi may not have had an abortion, we don’t know, but she takes money from pro-abortion groups and refuses to answer the question. That is deception, a lie. I will stick with Rick.
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All the more reason to support her.. I would never do it, but It isn’t my body, and unlike some I don’t choose to interfere with a woman’s reproductive rights.
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Even the Catholic Church picks and chooses what ideas to enforce. For example, the Bishop could, and according to church teachings, probably should deny communion to anyone who has used birth control. Would he do that? Only if he wanted to babble to an empty hall on Sundays….
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Grandma, that shows you don’t know the Church’s teachings. See canon 915 and 916.
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Beware the person who purports to know the “truth”.
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Once any group, religious or business tells people how to vote as in the Koch brothers it’s a dictatorship and that has no place in this country. This is a FREE COUNTRY vote for WHOEVER you want.
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It’s time for her to open The First Church of Kate.
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On one hand she’s complaining that the bishop is bringing politics to church but on the other hand she’s calling on others to wear political buttons to church? If she thinks bringing politics to church is wrong, why is she advocating people do it? The woman makes no sense. She needs to take it elsewhere on the other 6 days of the week and have some respect for parishioners who are there to attend the service that day for worship–not politics. Shame on her.
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The Church does. Visit St. Giana’s home or any of our many hospitals and social service agencies.
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The bishop is just reminding us that in eyes of the church abortion is murder. God stated Mary was with child-not unviable tissue mass and also that he new us in the womb.
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The Bishop should also release a letter stating that harm to a born child, that acts conducted behind closed doors is even more detrimental to the mental welfare of a child than abortion. He needs to address it to all priests.
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So tar a whole church based on the actions of a few. The cover up was wrong and a big mistake, even evil, but do not be so arrogant to tarnish religious teaching as wrong. They are men, and humans make mistakes but although not religious personally I admire those with faith and realize theological teaching is not subject to the political whim of members. So past Church evil be it The Crusades, The Spanish Inquesition whatever is not relevant to present church believers. State employees should never be part of a political witchhunt when a church is involved even for a political friend. She is perfectly free to leave her church and protest but not to protest in a church for political purposes. I hope this church has the courage to ASK HER TO TAKE HER POLITICS OUT OF CHURCH!
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Mr. B you may need an aspirin after reading this or a stiff drink. In 2004 the John Jay report stated that 10, 667 people in the US had made allegations of sexual abuse between 1950 and 2002 against 4,392 priests. Not all of them are necessarily guilty of the charge, while many more are yet to come to light. Many adults/children are embarrassed of sexual abuse and never speak of it. Too many. One child abused by a priest is one child too many.
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DC I gave you a thumbs up because who can justify the crime against children and even worse the cover-up. Religions have committed far worse crimes than this however, but is this relevant to the right of organised religion to give guidance to their members? Is it appropriate for politicians and their members to attack these core beliefs for a purely political purposes? Does it help a Democratic candidate to have a political operative protest in a church? We will see November ?
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The article stated she was a bit of a radical while in high school at St. James. I get the impression she may have been attending the wrong church. Miss Kenna and the CC may not be right for each other. My 2:57 pm comment is in regards to this. I guess I feel a connection here because I once worked at Holy Family School and I have fond memories of the place.
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I am not saying that all priests are bad. I have never said that. In my life I have been fortunate enough to meet some very wonderful clergy. What I have stated many times is that the church leadership, starting with the Bishops need to own it.. Atone for it, and push for the church to open those secret records.. and finally put those priests up for trial. Heck they weren’t even excommunicated for criminy crickets sake..
I will also state that I know for a fact that the Catholic Church isn’t the only church that covers up these types of things.
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Maverick you attack the pedophilia and I do also. The sick priests that committed these acts are less concern for me than the “coverup”. We agree! But when you use this as a political ploy to attack core church teachings for your political purposes, you are no better!
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I won’t change my stance on people who abuse children.. However you have given me something to think about.
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This is actually kind of sad. It’s admirable to defend a close friend whose views are being challenged, but picketing ones own church is a bit misguided. Even more so is Kenna’s belief that the church teaches us “to follow our own conscience.” She made that one up and saying it’s so doesn’t make it so. My goodness, who needs church structure or church doctrine to follow one’s own conscience? Every person is a work in progress, makes mistakes and is, by nature, weak. The churches position on the most serious issues is non-negotiable. Keena has picked her friends over her church. It happens every day. But if she truly, prayerfully considers what she’s about to do, she will change her mind.
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Kate Kenna and Tim Mathern are both long time agitators. This time they are trying to stir up support for Heitcamp who they know is in a losing effort. A couple of Catholic Democrats who, between them, don’t have a single clue of how to keep their Obama baby in office along with getting Heidi in to help him.
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Moral teaching should be left to theologicans not government political party. The church, in this case the Catholic Church, should tell members what is considered appropriate in their respective religion, especially when not endorsing a specific candidate. Moral values should not be determined by the US Government or a political party, in this case the Democratic Party, should they? So if your political affiliation is more important than your religion, you should change your religion and not expect your religion to change to adopt values they believe evil. Kate, some believe in God’s law, I aman agnostic, but respect more those that do! I have not been to a church in 10 years but would gladly go to express displeasure at your unbelievable arrogance!
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Kate, if you post which church, I will go to church just to express the need for you to find a church consistent with your values! We are free are not we??
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I know for sure its at holy family and I’m assuming it will be at the 11am mass
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THANKS, but not being a church goer I will not let her know my displeasure of her demonstrating her political views in a church. I do hope the priest asks her to leave from his pulpet as should parishioners. She definitely is not consistent with the teachings of her church. I do not believe Heidi will befefit from this type of protest! Catholics should be outraged by the arrogance of this individual and the resulting Herald Story undermining their Church teaching of religious doctrine. Because government says abortion is legal, does not make it right necessarily. People should consult their religion or in my case, my conscience to make that determination. But government needs to stay out of religion and especially out of my conscience when it come to values. I believe if you are Catholic you need to vote for the life of the unborn or become agnostic, valueless as I.
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If she’s at Holy Family it shouldn’t be a surprise. It has long been considered the most liberal of the GF Catholic churches. Heck, it didn’t even call itself a church, but a “Catholic Community.” When Aquila replaced the senile Sullivan, it got into trouble because it didn’t have a crucifix in the apse and the tabernacle was in a different room. Quite frankly, it looks more like a warehouse than a church from the outside.
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Agree or not, you always get a thumbs up from moi because of your truly honest and sincere oppinion!
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Thank you.
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This woman is a Social Worker! Does it surprise anyone that her beliefs align with what keeps her employed?!? Who cares about the teachings of your chosen faith, when it feels “amazing” to vote for Obama! I have to wonder if all you critics of the Catholic Church and Bishop would feel the exact same, with the same disgust and outcry about separate Church and State and tax exempt status, etc., if it was a black church leader or Islamic sheikh promoting certain ideals or even candidates? I am gonna guess not. You wouldn’t dare! Nope, that level of persecution is only reserved for Catholics and other conservative Christians. Totally hypocritical!
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My research show she is the head of a local state agency and goes to Holy Family Church! Is it appropriate the head of a large department demonstrate against a respected church, at least by many Catholics. I think sometimes partisan politics, which I believe this is, should not be tollerated. The fact that the article lists her as a ND State employee in a non political office should require to resign from her job if she wants to punish a church for it’s religious teachings. Religious freedom means we do not want state employees,especially department heads, or others infringing on our religion! Kate do you infringe on your employee’s rights by injecting your political views? If you do. please resign today! I am out of town, so do not worry about me, but I hope real Catholics give you hell!
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She is doing this as a private person. It is NOT in any official capacity. She has the same right as any other North Dakotan to express her private views. The paper made it a point to print her job and employer, she did not.
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Glen, I totally agree she has free speech rights. I wish she resisted assaulting the beliefs with those whom she shares this church and let theologicans decide moral conduct rather than appointing herself. I would not be posting about this except she and her party are playng politics attacking religious faith, while the church is merely displaying the churches teachings. Does organized religion still have the right give guidence to their members? If the Catholic church believes abortion is an evil, they need to say it! If you disagree with church doctrine, you leave like moi.
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Who care in what capacity she’s doing it? She claims it’s wrong to bring politics to church and in the same breath, states she’s going to do it.
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Glen, I do not know if her interview was done in a state office building nor do I know if it was on tax payer time. Would that make a diference in your oppinion?
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Yes it would because that would not be allowed under state policy. Do you have proof of this claim of yours?
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I hear she is a nice lady. My oppinion about her shurch politics is well formed, butI hope someone asks the Herald about this interview. AS I have posted, I do not know where the interview was conducted nor do I know if it was during normal work hours, but I believe the Herald would give this information if requested!
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John there are guidlines in every state in when and how a state employee can engage in political activities. What is described of her position and my limited knowledge is that she is not in violation of any code of conduct. You can not single her out and try to bring her job into this.
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To set up their own theocracy.
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What three boats did those people get in and come to America?
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The Moe, Larry, and Curly.
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Not even close…The Athos, The Aramis, and The Porthos.
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Come on folks. This isn’t that difficult. If the bishop was supporting the opposit side of issues ou agreed in then you’d see what’s wrong. If another religion was advocating voting for things you disagreed with (and had the numbers to make a difference) you’d be shouting “Foul.”
Simply put…..keep religion religion and not an influence in politics. It’s easy to see this issue as being ok as long as it goes with your beliefs….But if you can be honest with yourself……What would you think if everything was reversed and they were trying to run numbers against what you believed? Like say trying to enforce another big time rule…..Outlawing divorce. I mean according to the catholic rules there’s never supposed to be divorce….and some still insist that women should even stay in abusive homes because it’s their “Duty” according to their vowels. So if the weight of the church pushed for such a law would that be ok?
This is one reason it’s important to keep ALL RELIGIONS separate from affairs of state…….And the other edge of that sword….Keep the state out of the affairs of religion (Well unless they want to do something like human sacrifice or such)….
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That is simply not possible if you stop and think about it. People vote based on their internal values. Does the person they are voting for support their values? Those internal values are based on many things and religion is one of those things, the most important for some. There is nothing wrong with an organization reminding members of the beliefs and values of the organization. Expecting them to be separate in a persons decision making is foolish and unreasonable. It is not a violation of the Constitution.
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Tundra, separation of church and state is to protect religion from government, not government from religion so they can maintain their values. Some have addopted what ever is legal is ok, but religion has protection from government dictating it’s values. The Democratic Party is outrages in their attacks on religious freedom and this is an expression of long term Catholic teaching
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It’s religion that has been attacking the general public by trying to force religious doctrin into politics and law….If religions knocks it off then I’m sure the big bad Dems will knock it off….
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As has been stated before, this region was settled by Lutherans and Catholics, who saw no problem in getting laws on the books which enforced their view on what could be done on Sunday. The effects of these still exist: the noon opening in ND and the prohibition of selling liquor in MN, for example.
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i looked up Blue Laws to see the origin, but it didn’t have that. Do you know? Are they considered “Blue” because supposedly that the feeling non religious people get when having to adhere to them? It’s always seemed like a strange tearm to me….
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In the 18th century, the term blue was used to describe overly rigid morality and those who practiced it, much like yellow was used to describe someone who is cowardly.
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Tundra, the chuch has had these values about life long before you, I. Democrat Party existed and will continue long after us. As far as pushing values I see Democrats especially President Obama’s Healthcare pushing the funding for abortion and birth control on a church that believe it is against God, and that is the right, religious freedom, that is protected in the US Constitution. I repeat religion is what is protected not Heidi Heithcamp or President Obama who want to destroy organized religion so they canput their perhaps immoral values on everyone. I call this fascism, and it has happened before, so my vote will be against Heidi Heithcamp for her sisters and herapparent support for a protest in front on a church! There is a big difference between the moral teaching of the church which for many is sacred and this political protest by a disgruntled Catholic and her political friends. For me this is about RELIGIOUS FREEDOM which is NOT RESPECTED BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY or HEIDI!!!!!!!!
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But, but John; how can you disagree with Heidi or the dems because they are bigger and more important than everything! Heidi is down double digits with only 10 days left. The Hoeven ads are big and salt in the wounds from when Hoeven became gov.
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Foul! No one here wants religion to run the government. I understand your frustration, Tundra, but that’s just not the case. Christian values aren’t exclusive to Christians. Your values, Christians and Muslim values are a subset of each other. Heck, these three entities might agree on 85% of the issues. That doesn’t make these issues all Christian values. The Marriage Amendment, for example, is pushed heavily, but by far not exclusively by Catholic Bishops. As a group, it’s their religious duty, but individually, there’s a civic duty, similar to yours and mine.
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You paint your opinion with such a wide brush. The fact is, the religious right is a small group. There are way more tea party folks who care very little about religion. There’s gobs of religious left and middle. A huge majority of tea party folks are overwhelmed with over-regulation and stifling government interference and religion is very much a sidebar. You label people way to much, my friend.
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too
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America was founded on Judo-Christian principals…not Islamic, Hindu or Buddhist. So if you enjoy living in America, then you should believe in and fight for those same principals. That being said, because this is America, every individual (religious or not) has the right to stand up for what they believe and voice their opinions. The question is: Would have man parts big enough to declare an outcry against those other religions (or even liberal-minded, so-called Christians) as you have against the Catholics on this issue?
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Having been to several Islamic Countries (Saudia Arabia, etc.) and having their sand between my toes, I can personnally tell you that you would like Christian Values over Islam (Sharia Law) anyday.
We have people complain about “Christian Values” that are in our US culture. In Saudia Arabia, if you are caught with a Bible, Cross or any other Christian itam (also any Jewish item!), you can be severely punished.
For you women on here, you should be fortunate that you are in a Christian nation, where you can drive, vote, go shopping and the like. In Saudia Arabia (and several other Islamic countries) you would not be able to do any of these items. You would only see certain males (husband, son(s), brother(s), etc.). You could be beaten by your husband or even the police and there is nothing you could do.
Trust me. Having Christian Values in this country is giving us real freedom.
If you do not like Christian Values, go to a country with Sharia Law. Putting Christian Values into society helps keep a society moral (no stealing, etc.)
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Why do you call these Christian values? Have you read the Bible? Women and children are considered property, not unlike Islam. The South used the Bible to justify slavery. The US is what it is because the Founding Fathers rejected the Middle Eastern Judeo/Christian/ Islamic patriarchal viewpoint. And even then, it took over a century to eliminate slavery and for the women to get the vote.
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Gene, slavery in this country was not caused by religion. Religion was one of the things used to justify it to some but also used to oppose slavery. Slavery was about economics and fear of change.
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I did not say it caused slavery, did I? I said the South used the Bible to justify it. Which is why today there is still the Southern Baptist Church, which split from their Northern bretheren over the question. Of course it was about economics; early and mid 19th century plantation owners could not have survived without it. The point is, Christianity was used to legitimize it.
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But that’s the point…There are those who want that same kind of religious control with Christianity in law as with Sharia Law. You say the tees aren’t doing this….Then it’s a huge coincidence that since the GP has been taken over by them that the GOP seems to be working hard to take away rights woman have achieved over the years……I really wouldn’t be surprised in Mittens did get in that there’d be an attempt to somehow make it extra difficult for women to vote. I’m ont sure how, but they’ll try something…..After all you need to get those little women back into the homes tokeep a nice home, raise the kids, and leave the political decisions to the men who know better than they do what’s good for them….
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Religion was also used as a reason to oppose slavery. Look at the entire pic.
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marv, nice talking points, but they are false. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS opposed abortion. See the Didache from the 1st century. It is others who have changed not us. We still believe in a culture of life.
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The Didache is part of the Apochrypha.
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No, it isn’t. There are 73 books in the Bible. It isn’t one of them. But it is a first century document that shows the Church opposed abortion from day one.
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If it isn’t part of the Bible it is part of the Apochrypha. It was discovered in 1873 from an ms transcribed in 1036.
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Marv states “johnb, One thing that makes these discussions difficult is ignorance.” By your comment you believe I am ignorant. Good I donot mind insults. Good for you but I have been called far worse and feel I am in very good company today, many catholics and the church leadership. When politics is this bitter attacking religious freedoms I worry about you and specifically the US of political parties, formerly my country. I am not a fan of organised religion but I at least respect their values and their freedom to express them. Your post was not accurate and an insult not only to Catholics but organised religion in general. My advice to Miss Kenna and you is to keep your politics away from religion and let them decide moral values based on their Faith!
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First off ignorance to facts is just a lack of knowledge and not a reference to IQ. So it’s probably not as much of insult as just a blanket statement.
Second…Once again you’re concern for the government to stay away from religion seems to be missing the point that by religion trying to influence government that they’re bringing it on themselves. I’m all for getting rid of the non profit status except for areas that are charity functions. Then these churches can go total right wing as much as they want from the pulpit and try to influence votes…..Otherwise keep religion out of politics
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It’s time for Catholics to think on thier own. My religion dosn’t try to cram it’s doctrine down my throat and I appreciate that. My God is just as powerful as thiers but he (or she) is more accepting of others. My religion doesn’t dictate my political decisions and that’s the way it should be. Freedom of religion is in our contitution and should also be in in our hearts and minds. Religion should be inclusive and not exclusive.
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Religion has always been a them and us construct. For much of the Middle Ages it was Christian-Moslem-Jew. With the Reformation it was Catholic-Protestant. Now the breakdown is even more specific Missouri Synod-Wisconsin Synod-ELCA.
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John, when have the Swiss Guards been at your door enforcing Catholic doctrine? That’s right, never.Btw, your religious beliefs exclude me.
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Come on….If the Swiss Army guards were at your door wouldn’t you be in greater danger of laughing yourself until you couldn’t get breath then what they might actually do? If I found one of them wearing those jester outfits at my door I’d be rolling on the floor
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Is there really a God? If so, who created he/she? The bible take God’s existence as a given. It never attempts to prove he/she exists.
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I have never heard anyone say they know God exists, they rely on their faith and believe God exists. That is the dilemma for agnostics. A common illogical argument is everthing has a cause, the universe has a cause and leap to the belief God created it. Religion like politics is not a logical subject. I admire and envy those with a strong religious faith and believe politics should stay out of church. The Catholic Church has a moral responsibilityhas a responsibility to speak out about abortion if they believe it evil, regaurdless whether politicians or parishioners like the message or not! If these beliefs hurt a political party or candidate it is still the church responsibility to stand for what they believethat follows Catholic doctrine. I hope everyone realizes this is the core of religious freedom that being free from government trampling their beliefs. In this blog it should be clear the Democrat party with its advocates at a church is the element that has politicalized church teachings!
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Is there existence? Or are we all just dreams in a universal conscious? When it comes to faith the philosophical questions can go on forever…….
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The Catholic Church maintains that knowledge of the existence of God is available in the “natural light of human reason” alone. This theory is based on faith and not facts.
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Blame Thomas Aquinas for that one.
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By the by….I’d think that the Devils Child would have proof positive about who her father was at war with…..
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Zero proof that God even exists but some people will give 10% of their income to support his agenda.
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And the other 90% goes to your old man.
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It’s not that high. It’s more likely 30%….but….you have to give back what you owe him, either money or favours
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In pure logic…If God doesn’t exist…Then neither can there be a Devils Child because there’s only a Devil if there’s a God.
On that same note…….If there is a God who created everything then I have one question about that. Why create matter in the first place? Why create a vast universe and then according to doctrin one planet out of billions with life on it? What logic is there in creating matter when matter creates so many problems?
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There wouldn’t a sun, a moon, or the stars without a universe. Simply stated, the miracle of God’s finely tuned universe declares the majesty of His handiwork and allows the existence of life on earth.
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Yes…You have a keen eye for the obvious. My question was why create any matter in the first place when this so called heaven on a celesteral plain is supposed to be such a magnificant place. Why not just have all life exist on that celesteral plain in the first place instead of creating this huge mess called a universe? Or is it all basically a project like the old guy making things out in the shed to keep busy? I mean if the god figure is everything and heaven is the best you get get, then why create matter instead ofinstalling life into the celesterial plain and going from there?
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I ushered this week at a Catholic church and it was awful! The sermon was about our call to service and being a servant everyday. Then it got even worse from there: the darn kids collect can goods every week for the food pantries, the second collection was for the Dorothy Day house and there was a little set up with table of 19 different broucheres about help and assistance regarding abortion alternatives, help for the mothers and their families after the baby was born. Then at the end for the annoucements they had the balls to mention the Fill the Dome thing, ask for help with the mission in Hiati, ask for volunteers for the DDH and Churches United and talked about the going out and serving again. Then they had another speaker talk about justice for the poor and vulnerable.
It is really getting political!!
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Find another parish.
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…and much of the money that was donated likely went to the political campaigns and support of lobbyists.
I don’t have an issue with most rank and file Catholics — but the USCCB is just another PAC.
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One small arm of the Catholic Church that is easy to dislike is the Knights of Columbus. Get this: “In the 2010 fiscal year, the Order gave over US$154 million directly to charity (over $1.406 billion in charitable contributions and 653 million man hours in the last 10 years) and performed over 70 million man-hours of voluntary service. Over 413,000 pints of blood were donated.” Sounds like politics to me!
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Seriously, I thought at least Gene would get your tongue-in-cheek. Hang in there, Chins. I’d
actually suggest we disengage and ignore some of this madness.
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Tongue in cheek? Although I’ve been to only a few masses, I’ve seen the stuff he describes.
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seriously…funny. Chins was bragging, Gene, not complaining. Find another parish..right, Doc.
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What a super duper religion……What the hell…They deserve the 85% they don’t have to put towards the charities (Not saying they keep that much, but it’s amazing how little actually has to go to the actual charities). But you’re bing a devoted hard core Catholic explains how you can be so easily duped by the rights talking points without paying attention to facts…….Excepting what you’re told without question is drilled in at a very early age……It’s what got me kicked out of being an alter boy after a couple months……Back when they could be very strict….
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I’ve just browsed over the comments on the Catholic issues and on the thread about “Obamacare.” I’ll translate my dismay into some observations:
- Propaganda works! Many of the comments parrot the “truth” (aka political and/or religious dogma) contained in news stories and TV ads.
- Defending the faith trumps objective truth! Evidence, data, and impartial fact checker sites don’t count for much against zealous ideology.
- History must not be taught anymore! The USA is not a Christian country, nor was it founded on Judeo-Christian values! As a modern country, the USA is defined by the COTUS and as such, is clearly a secular democratic republic.
- Religious freedom is alive and well in the USA! The attempts by politically active groups like the US Conference of Catholic Bishops to say otherwise are incredibly dishonest and disingenuous in their claims to the contrary.
- Morality has little to do with organized religion! Modern humans would not have survived 100,000 years without Jesus unless it was built into their genes as a survival mechanism (moreover, any smart 5th grader could write a better moral code than the 10 commandments in about 5 minutes).
- Hitting the “thumbs down” button is way easier, and less cognitively unsettling than objectively checking facts — just watch!
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100k without Jesus…….Isn’t that about 50k longer than the earth has existed according to creationists?
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justasec, propaganda does work. You buy into the media narrative. The same media that delights in misrepresenting religion (while giving Islam a pass). The Church has every right to stating its views of the issues of the day in the public square, 1st amendment anyone? I suggest you take your blinders off and try to see things objectively. As for a better moral code lol, we have seen how that has worked over the last century or so.
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Jake opined:
“justasec, propaganda does work. You buy into the media narrative. The same media that delights in misrepresenting religion (while giving Islam a pass).”
Give some examples otherwise this is dubious at best, meaningless at worst.
” The Church has every right to stating its views of the issues of the day in the public square, 1st amendment anyone?”
Correct, but if the church wants to keep its tax exempt status it cannot endorse candidates. Also, under the 1st amendment, government cannot dictate to churches, nor churches dictate to government. The principle is called “separation of church and state” and the details were made objectively clear in the original writings of the likes of Jefferson and Madison.
“I suggest you take your blinders off and try to see things objectively. As for a better moral code lol, we have seen how that has worked over the last century or so.”
We certainly have! While no wars or genocides have been perpetrated under the banner of “reason,” there have been rivers of blood gushing from the conflicts stemming from political and/or religious dogmas. While science has flown people to the moon, religion has flown planes into tall buildings. At this time, the most peaceful and civil nations on earth are the most secular, and the most violent and uncivil are the most religious.
While we are on the subject of morality, why don’t the priests make it known to their flock that much of their donations are going to politicking rather than charity?
A little frock-to-flock honesty for change?
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Justasec by calling church teachings propaganda you probably are hurting your political causes. Whether Catholic or any organized religion they have faith in their beliefs and you call it “PROPAGANDA”. Perhaps your arrogance will hurt your cause?????
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The word actually originated with the Church in the creation of the Congregatio de Propaganda Fide, so the use here is not pejorative but historical.
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justasec, your initial statement was meaningless. You simply assert that those who oppose you are brainwashed by propaganda. Yet most media supports YOUR position not mine.
Tax exemption does not mean that the Church cannot comment on the issues of the day. This is often used, as a propaganda point, to silence the free speech rights of religion. The bishop didn’t endorse any candidate. Yet even that is of dubious constitutionality. Btw, how many black churches are blatant in endorsing Obama and why is there no attention paid to that fact? Separation of church and state does not mean suppression of the church by the state. In the last century scientific atheism is responsible for over 100 million deaths (save me the usual arguments I have heard it all before and don’t buy the propaganda). You have nothing to be feeling superior about.
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I rest my case!
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Jake, while the church is free to make whatever comments it would like regarding “issues” it is not allowed to engage in political activities without violating IRS regulations. The church has two choices, refrain from political speech and receive the substantial benefits of charitable organization status or engage in political speech and surrender that status. What offends me is the Bishop’s clear intend to try and game those regulations (dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty). Some of the actual language from the letter reads as follows:
…there are some actions that are never acceptable and should not be made so by law, they include: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, and not recognizing the unique and special role of marriage as the union of one man and one woman … In this election year, the positions of the two political parties and the positions of their candidates are well known. What I ask each of you to do before you vote is to consider carefully what our Catholic Church teaches about these issues, then consider how your vote for a particular candidate will contribute to the common good of us all as persons with that human dignity which must be respected and protected always.
The first statement is perfectly acceptable; the church is free to express its position on abortion, euthanasia etc. . . . However, the next statement is in my opinion clearly political speech in providing a reference to political parties. The letter later references not voting for “the likable” candidate. This letter was no doubt carefully crafted in an attempt to circumvent the IRS prohibition from engaging in political speech. I think that type of gamesmanship is dishonest. If the intent was to speak out against abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research and same sex marriage I wouldn’t have a problem with the letter. But this letter goes well beyond simply asserting a position on the issue. This letter clearly instructs parishioners on how to cast their vote. I find this to be particularly disturbing because it was not simply an off-the-cuff comment, but a carefully crafted and intentional act to circumvent the law. Shame on the dishonesty.
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Organized religion should have the same freedom of expression labor unions have and I believe labor unions are tax exempt. Why the double standard?
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”
Labor unions are nonprofits, and they rake in millions of dollars a year tax-free in member dues. Unions don’t have to pay federal or state income taxes on member dues or donations, nor property taxes on much of their real estate. Those items are exempt from the very same taxes unions lobby to raise on everyone else.”
Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/07/05/union-bling-union-junkets-1969452526/#ixzz2AjHc2fv0
The Supreme court needs to visit this obvious bias against organized religion. I picked the site from many sites just to let the antifox group know that many believe they are the most objective news outlet available although I do not watch television personally!!
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Joe, the bishop is saying Catholics should consider their faith when they exercise their political rights. Atheists do the same. We have the same free speech rights that you do. At least for now.
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Jake, you seriously believe that this letter was not intended to direct parishioners to specific candidates? You don’t think that the statement “the positions of the two political parties and the positions of their candidates are well known. . .” is a direction to vote for Republican candidates? If it is not a direction to vote for Republican candidates what possible meaning does the statement have? You have missed the entire point of my post. My disappointment is that this letter was intentionally crafted to try and evade the prohibition from engaging in political speech. If this were not an attempt to persuade parishioners how to vote it would have been limited to condemnation of “abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research. . .”, but that isn’t what it does. The letter is political speech, not a simple statement of the church’s position on the issues. The Bishop decided not to limit his letter to a discussion of the issues but clearly drafted the letter to direct people toward specific candidates. There isn’t any question the letter was well drafted and that is what makes it so disturbing; it is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the law. You keep referring to the Church’s first amendment right to free speech while ignoring it’s legal responsibility to refrain from political speech. As noted by many posters, the church can engage in political speech simply by giving it’s privilege to be treated as a charitable organization, just like the rest of the United States.
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“the positions of the two political parties and the positions of their candidates are well known. . .” In the context of the letter it appears to mean that people spend so much time hearing and thinking about the parties and not the church’s teachings. It means that that readers should take the next step and apply those teachings.
If those teachings line up with a particular party, that is because of the party’s positions, not the church’s teachings. The bishop has to teach on the teachings and he can’t decide what they are. The “political chips” fall where they may.
You state that the letter should have limited itself to “abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research. . .” But voting is also a religious matter and that is what the bishop was writing about.
Your entire argument that he directs to a specific candidate appears to rest on the argument that the bishop can either write about the issues or he can write about the obligation to vote as a Catholic, but he cannot do both. If, however, he did one and not the other he would not be expressing Catholic teaching about voting.
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Johnb labor unions are not organized under 501(c)(3) and are not charitable organizations. This is significant because donations to 501(c)(3) organization are tax deductible, donations to labor unions are not. The advantage of labor union political activities has little to do with there tax exempt status but more to do with the fact that many unions, particularly public employee unions, have mandatory dues and a significant portion of the mandatory dues go to political purposes. Churches could still be non-profits, give up there charitable status and engage in whatever speech they want, they would just have to give up the ability to have donations be treated as.tax deductible; the same position as labor unions.
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Excellent clarification. I do like to deduct my charitable contributions. Thank you for your polite explanation!
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Another caveat about labor unions: as 501 (c) 5 organizations if they engage in political campaign activities all of their investment income is subject to tax. They are organized as an advocacy group in the same fashion as the NRA, PETA, etc. who are all in the 501 (c) 5 section of the IRS tax code.
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Sandy thank you also for your great information. Prior to the 16th Amendment to the Constitution we did not have income taxes, so the US Government could not tax religion into submission by being called a charitable nonprofit. This has silenced organized religion from presenting moral values to their members. Do you believe that is what the writers of the Bill Of Rights intended, silencing religion from their “free speech right”? That is the core issue that I believe is being discussed in this forum???? Not the present tax code or disgruntled parishioners!
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Johnb, there is no restriction on religious organizations expressing their moral values. Religious organizations are free to condemn “abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research. . .”. The only prohibition is to refrain from suggesting which candidates parishioners should vote for in an election. There is no doubt that the letter from the Bishop was drafted with the intent of circumventing that prohibition. The Bishop could have easily written the letter expressing the church’s moral viewpoint without suggesting which candidates to vote for.
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Unions do have to pay taxes on direct political contributions but that is after the fact and only on dollars they use for political contributions. They can use tax-exempt money for lobbying and other power-brokering activities and that is the real thin line between a political and non-political contribution or expenditure.
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That is partly true but as all 501(c)5 if they engage in political campaigns they are also taxed on their investment income. This is probably not a way to run a democracy but that part of the tax code is not going to change–look at all the powerhouse groups that take advantage of that status–labor unions, National Rifle Assoc. PETA, etc.
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Correction; there should have been their. Darn phones.
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Chins, trying to be cute, wrote:
“One small arm of the Catholic Church that is easy to dislike is the Knights of Columbus. Get this: “In the 2010 fiscal year, the Order gave over US$154 million directly to charity (over $1.406 billion in charitable contributions and 653 million man hours in the last 10 years) and performed over 70 million man-hours of voluntary service. Over 413,000 pints of blood were donated.” Sounds like politics to me!”
Well chins, check out: http://ncronline.org/blogs/young-voices/some-knights-columbus-donations-are-little-bit-questionable
Here’s a tidbit from that link:
“In 2008 and 2009, the Supreme Knight’s charitable report shows the organization gave more to “family life” projects than they did to “community projects.” On the surface this sounds benign, but “family life” is the Knights’ terminology for predominantly anti-gay initiatives, whereas “community projects” represents soup kitchens and food pantries.”
Yes chins, it does sound like politics doesn’t it? And speaking of politics, remember that it was the KC who led the political charge to put the divisive “under god” bit into the previously indivisible-promoting pledge of allegiance? A classic example of theocrats aided by religious activist judges subverting the 1st amendment by any objective analysis!
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The K of C used to serve the cheapest drinks in Grand Forks.
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Justasec stated “In 2008 and 2009, the Supreme Knight’s charitable report shows the organization gave more to “family life” projects than they did to “community projects.” On the surface this sounds benign, but “family life” is the Knights’ terminology for predominantly anti-gay initiatives, whereas “community projects” represents soup kitchens and food pantries.”
You are one paranoid dude. Yes, at the meetings they spend the money and 70 million man hours on how to be anti-gay.
WOW!! You missed the 413,000 pints of blood- did that go to anti-gay or anti-community groups?? Are the Shiners doing bad charity? Are those little car they drive at parades anti something? What do you hate worse, the record charity or the record man hours?
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No chins, I didn’t state that — the source was the National Catholic Reporter!
For the record I applaud the charitable work of the KC. What I don’t applaud is the amount of money used on politics — especially when the people who donated it were under the impression it was all going to the charity.
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Justasec, who cares about the KC? This discussion is about free speech. Miss kenna’s , your right to free speech versus organized religions right to free speech be they Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Buhdist, Muslim or my agnostic religion. Why is your right more important than organized religion? Obviously you are very intelligent by the way you frame your argument, but being very simple and humble about my beliefs please explain why your expression of free speech is more important free speech than religious leaders whose job is to give the best moral direction mere humans can give their believers. My only explanation is you are perhaps insecure with your beliefs or your social and political beliefs are in such contradition to the moral teachings of clerics necessitates attacking religious faith. I have been agnostic since I was 10 years old but admire the faith my wife has where she feels God in her life. She is kind, nonjudgemental and accepts my faults because I try but some just do not understand faith. Be kind to those with faith, you show too much contempt, hate and you can not be a very happy person!
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I missed the Mormon Religion and countless other religions/ My goal was all organized religions!
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justasec, atheist organizations, Jewish ones, Muslim ones, union ones, Soros ones etc. ALL give money to those who support their goals. There is nothing illegal about that. Wow, you are right. Propaganda works and you echo it in every post.
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Jake, we live in a very political country which explains why political parties are more important than faith. Sad but obvious by these attacks on religion!
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Justasec, your hate of organized religion is why we need our Bill of Rights!
“1.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances ” I believe since income taxes are an invention of the 20th century, it is an infringement of the churches right of “free speech”. Without the income tax tax emempt status would not limit free speech. I hope Democrats revoke the Catholic church status, one to unite Catholics against the Democrat Party, but secondarily so we have an exciting Supreme Court decision perhaps liberating religious speech to be “free” again!
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johnb, Chins, jake: justasec is a professed socialist. It’s his right, but he’s not listening, kids. I’m begging you to disengage. My issue with this protest isn’t about Keena’s right to protest. My goodness, we all have a right to stand on public property and protest. I feel bad for Keena because you simply cannot accept the Catholic faith buffet style. The most important doctrine is not negotiable. Let the protest happen. johnb: you need to keep busy here. You prove to all that Christians don’t have the corner on nice.
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You feel bad for Kenna. Don’t drag the Keena girls into this. Entirely different family.
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Devilchild….My comment was about the individual in the article. There’s no plural?!? What?
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You misspelled her name. This has happened for years between the two families.The Kenna and Keena girls have been confused countless times.
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I’m picking up on a bit of a trend in these comments… meaning, if you don’t want to stand for anything, simply leave your church and find one that’s just as wishy washing as your own personal politics. Well now…thats a novel concept. The only problem is that eventually, this country will be full of people who don’t stand for anything, but yet claim to have religion or be “christian”. Oh wait… from my calculations, we’re already there. And you all wonder why this nation is so jacked up! Just so we’re clear…is it still okay for me to be a catholic even though this bishop may have said a few controversial things? Funny how judgemental people get over others being judgemental about being judgemental.
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Johnb, jake, alvin, chins et al., I almost had a hernia laughing at your attempts to psychoanalyze me, and redefine what I have written into targets for strawman attacks! Let me help you out by openly stating what I stand for:
- Morality — that is based largely on universal human rights and the simple precept that if your actions harm others then they are of dubious morality.
- Secular democratic republican government — (if you don’t understand what that means read the COTUS and some of the original writings of the people who authored it).
- Reason and rationality — based on evidence and logic (not superstition and dogma).
- Humanity — a philosophical view that values good deeds and civil society.
I’m sorry if you find that those simple statements contradict pretty much everything you have just tried to say about me!
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Funny!
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justasec, universal human rights? Who made them and where did they come from? If you are an atheist then there are no universal human rights just the lex talonis. Didn’t the Declaration of Independence mention a Creator? Where is your logic and reason? You are very dogmatic and believe in things you cannot prove. The bishop was in fact quite reasonable. Catholics should take into account their faith. If you want good deeds then look at what things in our community are sponsored by the Church. As for a civil society…well stop bashing religion and be more civil.
That aside, the declaration of human rights from the UN supports my position.
Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
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Apart from the amusing issue of questioning the origin of universal rights and then quoting two articles from the document that outlines them, jake asserted:
“You are very dogmatic and believe in things you cannot prove.”
Coming from a guy who gushingly believes in the supernatural — an extraordinary belief that has no evidence to support it (let alone extraordinary evidence) — this is precious.
Some examples of my dogma jake?
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Sigh, you pushing believe in the things you cannot prove such as that there is no supernatural. You have great faith I see. Do we really need to repeat the same arguments over and over again? I do wish atheists would come up with something new for a change.
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…and since tax donations, politics, and honesty have all been mentioned in the same thread, here’s a link some of you might like to check out: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html
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You forgot to mention your long-standing, deep seated respect for wealthy, successful people who are living the American dream.
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I have great respect for those people alvin — so long as they are honest!
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Cool, we agree. Hey, you say something nice a day after my comment and you get three dislikes. You gotta love this place.
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Hey, I’ll take your compliment — especially since caricatured me as a “professed socialist” earlier!
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I have to apologize, justasec. I swear you told me that one day. I must have the wrong guy. Seriously, I’ve got you mixed up with someone else.
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…well shucks, people do mistake me for Brad Pitt all the time!
Apology warmly accepted!
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Well, as usual, the Herald never bothered to follow up on this story. So, what happened. Did a lot of people show up with Heidi buttons or something…or was it a dud?
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I heard that there were about three people there.
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