Student debt stretches to record 1 in 5 households
September 28, 2012 at 1:30 am in Grand Forks Herald
With college enrollment growing, student debt has stretched to a record number of U.S. households nearly 1 in 5 with the biggest burdens falling on the young and poor. Continue Reading
If ever there was a definition of Good debt, this is it.
Students that enroll in College should be able to get a job that would not have been available to them without the education and as far as the poor being impacted, the job should alleviate the “poor” tag.
I for one saved up a very small amount to help my kids, i push scholarships and after that student loans.
A person right out of college is better off paying student loans than the kids parents who are about to retire.
I have seen several parents go heavy into debt to pay for their kids college and forego their retirement accounts to do it. Not wise in my opinion.
But with that said, i would like to see that student debt figure of 1 in 5 move closer to 3 in 5, as that would be indicitive that our children are putting greater emphasis on education and being self sufficient as adults.
Fewer people on welfare is always a good thing.
Now if we could just get the kids to stop getting worthless degrees and then complaining why they cant get a job.
Degrees like:
Fine Arts, Drama and Theater, Philosophy, and Music.
While these may be “fun” they are not exactly skill sets in demand.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Why are schools even allowed to peddle unmarketable degrees?
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Because people like me refuse to let people like you make choices for them.
Remember, what is “marketable” is very fickle. It changes too rapidly to make broad pronouncements. I have a brother in law who is a mechanical engineer and has an MBA. He cannot buy a job in his area of the country and he does not want to move.
If he was an electrical engineer he could get a $25,000 sign on bonus.
Those two were opposite when he started school.
Finally, there is something to be said for a classic liberal arts education. It helps you to think, something highly specialized degrees do not. Do you want a PhD chemist in charge of foreign policy?
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How many chemists jobs are there vs Foreign Policy jobs?
If you specialize in a worthless degree in hopes of getting one of the tiny amount of available jobs you cant complain when youre flipping burgers.
And if youre not willing to move where the jobs are, then you get what you get.
If i’m going to pay 20k a year for an education, you better believe i’m getting a degree that will get my money back in my pocket and i will move where i need to to do the job.
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I agree. All I am saying is do not discount a liberal arts education because there is not an immediate payoff after you graduate. Someone still has to think great thoughts, and it usually is not engineers (although there are exceptions). Outside of Ben Franklin there are very few scientists that the world remembers for their contribution to human thought.
I am a classic example. When I graduated I went from earning $400 a month to $1000 a check overnight. The trouble is it is 30 years later and I am earning $1500 a check. Not exactly a stellar increase.
On the other hand the gal I lived with in nursing school (business major) could not find a job when she graduated. She did the same thing she did before she graduated for a year. The big difference is once she got a job her earning potential outpaced mine after 5 years and her retirement pay (same age and she is retired, I am far from it) is more than I earn.
Education opens doors. Some doors pay well right off the bat (engineers, chemists, math heads) and pay well throughout your career. Others start slow but explode once you reach a certain level.
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You are absolutely correct Captain. Historical fact: the most successful federal program EVER in terms of return on investment was the post WW II GI bill. It returned $16 in taxes for every dollar spent on the program.
Sending all those returning soldiers to college and then helping them buy a house transformed our country in unimaginable ways: the interstate highway system, suburbs, TV dinners, etc etc etc.
If you do not want your kids working 60 hours a week for the rest of their lives earning $10 an hour, you refuse to help them unless they agree to go to school (the local community college for a certificate in heating and air conditioning, plumbing, electrician, or auto mechanics is just as good as a BA sometimes).
Your kids are lucky Captain
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People tend to overlook the fact that College is not the only way to a good job.
skilled people in are always in demand in areas like Plumbing, Heating, construction etc..
A couple of years in a skill specific course and some apprenticeship work and you can make a very good living for you and your family.
You just have to want to make something of yourself.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Right now I would kill for an Intelligent 20 yo that can think outside of the box that our public education system put their minds. It really is surprising the number of kids today who have very little if any common sense or ability to troubleshoot anything more than their XBox. Work ethic and quality have also gone into the toilet. There are a rare few out there that you find once in a while. Most aren’t worth the training involved to get them to a technical level.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Here’s something worth reading on that very subject. Free e-book.
The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, by Charlotte Thompson Iserbyt
http://www.freedomadvocates.org/images/pdf/DDDoA.sml.pdf
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That is just it Mav. You and I can’t figure out the darn X Box and they have a PhD in it. People make the mistake in thinking today’s youth are dumb. Far from it. By comparison we are semi literate knuckle draggers.
Their expertise and way of thinking is completely different than ours. They have never known a time that did not center around technology and communication. One of my step sons did not know how to address an envelope. I about fell over, then I realized it had probably been 2 years since I had addressed one. He had simply NEVER done it. Amazing but true. When you tell a 20 something to mail it, they want to scan it and attach it. That is all they have ever known.
Their thinking is very decision tree like because that is how computers work. If you see A do B.
Their work ethic is as you said very different than ours. We expect a certain amount of gratitude and subservience for giving them a job. After all, how much did we have to debase ourselves to get where we are?
That is not going to happen with this crew, and that rubs many older people the wrong way. They call it a sense of entitlement and in some ways it is true.
However, they are not lazy. When they put their minds to something they leave us old farts in the dirt. When motivated I have seen amazing amounts of talent and work out of people I thought were semi retarded degenerates.
The trick is finding the right motivation. Like I said, forget them feeling overly grateful for a chance to work for you. Somewhere along the line that was bread out of them. They simply do not think that way.
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Thanks for the link.. I’ll read it when my schedule returns to a normal state..
@FN there is some truth to what you say, and I understand those concepts very well. You are talking to the king of nerds. I’ve been one since before being one was fashionable. It is why I am in the industry that I am.. Many different life paths brought me back to my beginning which is cool with me..
My problem isn’t that they think differently, it is that they don’t think. I understand all of the cool gadgets, I am an early adopter. Always have been. I was linking the music on my phone to my tv before you could by TV’s with Pandora. I was on the internet before there was a world wide web.
It isn’t that they think in A to B terms, honestly that is what is lacking a lot. They simply can’t go from A to B to C.. Forget abstract thinking. The biggest issue has been and will be with a majority of them is that
1) They will never do more than they are told.. They don’t have any initiative
Case in point on this one issue.. You see a female shovel snow at your office every morning for the to to three years. During that time not one of them has voluntarily offered to shovel snow.
2) They enter the work force with no skills expecting 75k a year. So yeah the entitlement is there, and it is worse than you think. I had one new hire tell me that the vehicle I gave him to drive was beneath him and that he wanted a new truck. The one I gave him to use was two years old.
3) They have no real world problem solving skills.
Again an example. My business is in a technical construction field. You send someone out to do a service ticket. They have to run something through a ceiling that is sheet rocked. The simple thought of taking out the lights to access the area is to much for many of them. I receive calls of ‘It can’t be done.’ My thoughts always go to.. Really? Because I put a cable through that area two years ago myself. (btw I am a working boss)
I have never expected gratitude or subservience. Never. If they call me Sir I actually get upset. I make them call me by my first name. My expectations are simple. Show up on time and do your job. I’ll never ask an employee to do something that I am not willing to do, or haven’t done. I feel that is pretty simple.
The core employees I have are great. They are those diamonds in the rough.. Many employees can’t make it past the first year in what I do.. They simply lack the skills.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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We have had many of your noncritical thinking dunderheads come through the hospital. Your examples made me smile because I know exactly what you are talking about.
That said: most learn & survive. Those that don’t end up corralling carts at Walmart.
Critical thinking is not natural. It has to be taught. Like math, some pick it up easier than others.
As for the shoveling show example, my first thought wasn’t they are lazy (I watch people remove snow, cut grass, & pick up the trash every day when I go to work. It never crossed my mind to help because they work for a company we pay big bucks to do that for us) it was how cool it was that they never noticed it was a woman doing the work & they thought they should help her because she is a girl.
You are correct. If it is a coworker out there doing it, I would like to see them help. Cooperate & graduate. Stick up for your team member so they will stick up for you.
Not noticing it was the wrong sex doing the job might be indicative of a very good thing. If they see the woman shoveling snow & don’t think a thing about it, they probably also have no qualms seeing her as the boss.
That is true progress
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Gaming programs, whether Mario Bros for my children or a a moresophisticated program encourages trial and error. As a mathematics major in a BS major, problem solving to the “end” result was a sense of accomplishment, not trial and error to get there. As a chemistry gratuate student, I had more than several pages to get my result! That is true science! In my professional field data verified is the only acceptable result! Todays students may believe they have knowledge of the scientific method but are ignorant, perhaps because of the present educational system. I have multiple post graduate degrees but am not adequately prepared to teach an advanced HS course, because I do not possess the indocrination of a bogus educations degree. To the disdain of Bill Gates, he is not “licienced” to teach children success in computers!
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You won’t find me arguing with you john. That is why God created Charter schools.
I have been a nurse for 30 years. I have a long string of initials behind my name, and while I can (and do) teach at the college level, I cannot teach HS health class because I do not have a student teaching semester.
The examples are endless. It is just bureaucratic inertia and the prevailing power structure trying to maintain control.
I often get flamed on these boards for always wanting things to change. I get a lot of “why fix it if it isn’t broken” type comments.
Look around yourself and tell me things aren’t broken??
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(reply to some of the responses)
I wrapped up my doctorate last year and have dealt with a variety of university students over the past half decade. I am concerned about the critical thinking skills of our next generation. A good example are my observations on homework assignments. No matter what you plan for, sometimes unattended questions arise during assignments. Assumptions might be necessary, or perhaps the students think of something you had not. When I was taking classes, we would justify what we did if things were vague and/or see the instructor. This is when the highest level of education occurs because these questions often lead to thought provoking discussions. More often than not what I observe now is this: students just give-up and don’t even bother to finish the question OR they want you to spell out every single step A B C etc. to get the magical answer.
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Not to mention that some students are just not made for 4 – 6 years of college but know they need some sort of education to earn a decent living. Trade schools fill that need. After graduations, when the student loan repayment started, I wondered why I hadn’t thought of going to trade school to become an electrician. Would have cost less and I’d be earning more!
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I have a MS & several times a year curse myself for not getting a certificate in auto mechanics.
I have 7 boys. I spend a small fortune on barbers. 3 of my kids are brown & they are very particular about their hair. I keep asking which one is going to barber school. (Barber, not beautician).
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CA, I can’t vote thumbs up or thumbs down on your post.
1/3 of college students have no business being in college. Either they’re not mature enough, “college” is just semester after semester of Social Hour; or they’re not prepared academically to accept the challenge of “real” college coursework.
For them, college debt is TOTALLY inappropriate. Unless you accept the philosophy of “I spent most of my money on liquor and sex, but the rest of it I just wasted”.
Too many students are in college because someone else made the decision for them, and is paying (at least part of) the bills.
Many employers demand a college degree even when the position could be entirely learned by appropriate On-The-Job training. Good ol’ APPRENTICESHIP.
Employers avoid OTJ training because that shifts the cost from the applicant (college debt) to the employer (training programs, and some expected “newbie” errors.)
OTJ training–when applicable–is FAR superior to college degrees in terms of workforce matters. (OTJ training may or may not be superior to college degrees in terms of building an educated citizen who can make good decisions on non-job-related issues.) But then, college is becoming more career-centric and less Citizenship-centric anyway.
The propaganda about college degrees and increased earning power has been circulating for decades. It’s presented as if it was cause-and-effect: Get a degree, you earn more.
The reality is more like “Those people who have the drive and ambition to succeed in their career ALSO have the drive and ambition to succeed in college.”
Debt is slavery. More people in debt–or in debt for a larger amount–is NOT a good thing.
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“Employers avoid OTJ training because that shifts the cost from the applicant (college debt) to the employer (training programs, and some expected “newbie” errors.)”
You hit a very sore subject with me: nursing education (or the lack there of). I went to a hospital based diploma school. We were the definition of free labor. We had twice as many clinical hours as any program in the state.
As a consequence I graduated on a Thursday and started work on a Friday. My orientation was shorter than what a ward secretary (HUC) gets now a days. I didn’t need it. I had just spent three years learning my job.
Fast forward 20 years and I am running the show. Every time I hired a new grad I had to give the a minimum of three months orientation before they were “safe” to turn loose on their own. Three months. That equated to over $10,000, not counting the cost of the classes they needed to function.
Nursing is the only profession I am aware of where you can pass the national certification exam (NCLEX for RN) and then require .25 of a year before I get any benefit from you.
Could you imagine an accountant needed three months of orientation? There would be a whole lot of accountants tending bar.
MD graduate as an MD, that is their degree. They are not licensed until after one year of internship and a big test. The first year of internship is actually the 5 year of med school.
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Hey Cap! If you think the shows on the tube are crap now…just do away with liberal arts and see what TV or movies become in the future? Actually most anything that requires creativity and critical thinking. Without liberal arts majors to teach then we’d see the effects before very many years in so many areas……..they’re much more than just “Fun” they are important for others rounded educations
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I just don’t understand why higher education should cost an arm and a leg. I suppose one reason it’s so expensive is because colleges have a guarenteed source of funding thanks to the government and really don’t have any financial incentive to contain costs. There’s no reason an young person, or an older person trying to keep ahead in todays evolving workplace should have to go into debt for 10 years or more just to get an education. The only jobs that seem to pay decent money are either the trades (electrical, plumbing/heating) or those that require more than a Bachelors degree. Granted, one can make a decent living with a Bachelors degree but I have seen time and time again that there is a significant financial advantage to sticking out 8 to 10 years of college and earning a few letters behind your name. Wish I could afford to do it but I work full-time and have put myself through school and can not afford to continue piling on the debt. Not in this economy.
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There is a body of research that says readily accessible student loans are one of the reasons the cost of an education has skyrocketed. While they make some good points, it is too simplistic an explanation.
I do agree with the federal programs that now tie a school’s ability to offer student loans to an overall graduation and job placement rate. This will kill many of the for profit diploma mills that charge $10,000 for a nurses aid course that pays $10 an hour when you graduate.
The important thing is to not throw the baby out with the bath water. I teach for a private university that is responsible for more BSN and Nurse Practitioners than any school in the nation. It is horribly expensive (state subsidies count for more than most people realize) but we turn out a quality product that is in demand.
No $10,000 nursing assistants or $30,000 paramedics for us
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Agreed. Tying loans to measurable results raises the bar for educators and students. Hopefully that will help to cut out those institutions that take advantage for the sake of profits.
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I just don’t understand why people still have three, four, five, six kids. I have one. Money has never been a problem at our house.
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Religion, culture, upbringing. I work with many many Mormans. The average is 7 kids. The difference there is they by and large take care of their own. You WILL give 10% to the church, but then I have never met a homeless Mormon. You will work, you will tithe, but they will take care of you.
I have 4 biological and 3 step. All boys. My first wife wanted a girl. After 4 boys I told her to go to China and adopt one because I was done. Ya, right, picked up 3 more.
I would venture a guess that I spent more on cell phone and ipods last year than you did on clothes.
It is whatever makes you happy.
Oh, I forgot: 2 grandsons. Women in my house are tough or die. The only other girl is the dog.
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Ha-ha! Your statement is so true! I’ve lived my entire life in a male dominated family. There’s no room for sissies!
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True story: first wife called to complain #3 son was acting up. I said beat him (my default answer for most things involving the boys. I am not a big fan of Dr Spock).
She says: I can’t, he is bigger than me now.
I told her to not feed him for a few days to weaken him & then get a stick..
Rule # 1: if I’m paying the bills the kids never win
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Mormon doctrine teaches that god and his wife are busy creating spirit children which need human bodies to inhabit so that they may advance. Thus the huge families.
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I don’t get it either. When I’m shopping and see a mother with a gaggle of kids and a heaping shopping cart I just can’t imagine how they manage. I don’t have any children at home and my monthly grocery bill keeps going up, up, up and it doesn’t include purchasing meat. But most people, kids included, seem to be walking around with cell phones, Ipods, or other gadgets. Maybe I’m cheap, but the price of the new phones (along with the cost of the service agreements needed to run them) makes me shudder at the thought of forking out that kind of money. How on earth do college kids make it these days?
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They have rich uncles like me that supplement their income when their parents can’t.. lol
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I haven’t had a check with less than 120 hours on it in I can’t remember how long.
As for food: amen sista. You would not believe how much we spend on food
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“I just don’t understand why people still have three, four, five, six kids. I have one. Money has never been a problem at our house.”
E-V-E-R-Y problem society faces is created or made worse by the gross human overpopulation of this planet.
One kid is plenty.
Two kids is enough.
Three kids is irresponsible from a “sustainability” standpoint.
[Note: My doctor told me that I was the first non-married man he'd ever performed a vasectomy on.]
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You may have a brain?? Genetic ,non eugenics reproductiion, ie not based on Darwian selective reproduction but of less adaptible individuals, not based on intelligence, this may be the gorilla in the room. We have a large dependent undrclass. which economically will affect us all! Especially those above average, but I am anxious to hear fair oppinions!
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They vote for Barry and pray he gives them more entitlements. They’re 10s of thousands in debt. Read the bankruptcy reports lately? Nobody tries to live within their income limits anymore, and why should they? Our govt refuses to, why should citizens have to behave differently? Max out the credit cards and apply for more.
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Is it just me? ’cause it seems that the people that want the government to wither and die are also the ones who want the government to tell education what courses to offer.
The funniest thing is when, after saying that, they go on to say that the young have no common sense/critical thinking ability. It makes you wonder.
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Very good Adam. You found out their secret.
The definition of conservative has undergone a dramatic change. Most on the right freely admit that Regan, the patron saint of conservatives, would have a hard time getting elected today.
Conservative as an ideology has two parts: one economic and one social.
As a Libertarian I am very fiscally conservative. I make Captain America look like a Communist.
That said, socially I am very liberal. Freedom of choice comes with responsibility. I take the responsibility. Regulate (legislate) your own morality, I am doing fine.
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Live Free!
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I have no want for government to regulate education. I think the ‘No Child Left Behind’ act is about the worst thing to hit education in years. It has forced teachers o teach a test instead of teaching content.
You are correct in that I am for less government. I am also for smart government. Neither of which exists today.
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Adam, I do not want your union, I assume you contribute to our failed education system per your union membership, but if in error I have no appology as it may be a family member. Our society and children, grandchildren are being cheated of a worldclass education! 23rd in mathematics out of 31 industrialized nations is failure!!!!!!!!!!!
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It’s failing because it keeps getting robbed, and teachers have become the target of a lot of unwarranted ridicule all because politics. You can’t keep working against education and expect it not to harm the system as a whole.
I think back to all that was available in education when I was a kid and I feel sorry for these kids today going to schools that have to keep making deeper cuts just to stay afloat. Why there’s this huge hatred towards education just because some don’t like unions just makes no sense to me. If you want to address the union issue that needs to be separate from education in general. Otherwise the only people to blame for such low results is ourselves for allowing this divide and conquer mentality to continue
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If you don’t have some people graduating with liberal arts degrees then who’s going to teach them? As mentioned earlier…you really need liberal arts to round out the education and help develope better critical thinking and creativity skills. I read some time back that graduate with a good liberal arts block in their over all education tend to be more successful in the working world. So it’s a damn shame that those studies are often the first victims of budget cuts.
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I have been doing some work with a university lately and have had this argument on multiple occasions, the reason why there is a disconnect between getting an education and getting an education to be able to get into a well paying career is that the univeristy system does not see there role as one to get students ready for the real world. They see there role as one to educate students for the mere fact of educating students with no real goal in mind…if you ask me that is completelly backwards and makes absolutely no sense something needs to change but sadly I don’t see that on the horizon.
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