by Grand Forks Herald
September 4, 2012 at 6:15 pm in Grand Forks Herald
Petition fraud subverts democracy — and NDSU officials should recognize the seriousness of it. Continue Reading
Tags: 2012 elections, Editorials, Football, North Dakota State University, Opinion, petition fraud, Petitions, players, updates 64 Comments »
My impression is the number of players involved if suspended or kicked off the team will cost NDSU their season. That is evident by the choice the coaches made. It’s all about winning. Heads are going to roll though. This is serious.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 88 17
People will be held accountable: AFTER the season is over. Division 1. UND has always had minor hockey shananigans, & for the most part always dealt with it.
The flavor of this is it is all ok as long as they play.
Makes you wander if competing at Division 1 is worth it.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 74 18
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Or maybe they deserve their day in court before you convict them. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? It looks very bad for these young men and if GUILTY they should be held accountable. But when you are talking about taking an action which is not reversible and will have a huge impact on their lives for an alleged crime that is not even a felony I think we can wait for a trial at the very lease.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 35 66
The term is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Hot debate. What do you think? 29 16
I thought it was guilty until proven innocent in the media circus court?
Hot debate. What do you think? 24 11
I have said that Division 1 comes with a cost for tiny schools in places that most D1 athletes–of which ND has VERY few–would want to play–for a long time. And been soundly beaten down about it.
This is the reality. Coming to UND soon as well.
The NDSU’s and UND’s of the world–small schools in cold climates that are just about the last place a kid from Florida or Texas or California wants to play–have to seek out those with a lot of talent–but with problems that kept major D1 schools from offering them a scholarship. As NDSU has done you might see some success with solid recruiting–but a higher % of those recruits have some serious issues in their background than you’ll find in a major D1 school.
More kids with major discipline problems. Criminal records hidden by Juvie courts. A small MN school had a number of crimes and rapes all of a sudden and I think they ended up deciding to close their football program.
You get a number of those kids on your team and pray for the best. Problem is not all of them suddenly mature or become model citizens once they go off to college.
Yes, D1 for tiny schools on the cold prairie comes with a cost. Is it worth it?
Like or Dislike: 8 9
I’m guessing that if they were playing Robert Morris instead of Colorado State this weekend, the players would have been susupended. Just win baby!!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 66 18
Years ago the Olympics finally faced up to the fact that participants were not amateurs competing in the name of the ideals of the Games. Time for the NCAA to do the same thing. The players in the big sports are not students, and are not recruited to be that. They are uncompensated entertainers. This and other cases have shown that athletics departments are independent of universities and act by their own rules. The decision should not have been left to the coach. In the case of real students, the administration would have meted out suspensions pending the results of a trial. But it appears football is all NDSU has, and protecting it has become the raison d’etre of the “school”.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 61 15
How does free tuition,books +room & board make them uncompensated entertainers? Seems to me that’s worth about $40,000/yr. I say $40 grand because that’s what a state school costs if you factor in the taxpayer subsidy that the private school doesn’t receive.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 58 6
Tuition and the like are just write-offs, journal entries. Money the university foregoes. In other words, it’s phantom money. The players do not share in the cash flow that comes in. It’s like the days when a pro boxer did all the work, and the manager made off with the purse. At the end of his career, the boxer was broke. Looking a graduation rates, most college football players serve through their elegiblity, are dumped, and have no degree or one in “General Studies,” which is offered through the athletics department. What % of them actually get to the pros? Time for the NCAA to admit that athletics have nothing to do with academics. The players aren’t there to get a degree. And the coaches, who pull down a bundle, could care less.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 43 12
The point is the player doesn’t need to put out any money if he has a full ride.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 34 6
BTW the player eats real food, takes up real dorm space & classroom space & buys real books. The costs are real & use up resources other students would use. That’s part of the reason college sports are expensive & winning “TEAM” sports pay for the other non-revenue sports that also give scholarships + room,board & books. The debate about paying athletes is actually a moot point. The players that are most likely recruited for their skills are the team sports that are also pro sports that have a big payoff. Most athletes in fact are also recruited because they pass the NCAA Clearing House academic req. so your stereotyping of college athletes as non students isn’t very true anymore.
Hot debate. What do you think? 18 13
Given the NCAA’s history, you’re saying their Clearing House means anything? What coach makes a recruiting decision on an SAT or ACT versus a 4.3 40, 7 feet of height, or a 140 mph slapshot. Coaches don’t care about graduation rates, they care about winning teams which assure a larger salary.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 30 6
You act as if athletes aren’t highly motivated in more areas than just sports. If you had any experience with HS athletics you would know how strict the NCAA D-1 Clearing House academic req. are.
Hot debate. What do you think? 12 20
Oh cut the horse exhaust. College coaches don’t give a rat patoot about high school grades, test scores, or the NCAA. They want performers. Which is why they’ll recruit people with arrest records longer than their transcript, if the can outrun a cornerback.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 37 10
Wouldn’t it be nice if the state focused on their own residents for a change? We could eliminate several of the higher ed schools, spend money on our own students and give our own students a chance to play the game instead of giving scholarships to people from other states. A high school would never get away with what the colleges do. Ship them in from out of state just to win a game…really it is wrong. We should want the best for our own students. A good education and giving them a chance to play a game that they love should be the norm.
Hot debate. What do you think? 26 12
Gene, you are wrong. have you seen the process up close in terms of the NCAA Clearing House process. Huge #s of athletes never make it to the pool of eligible recruits because they don’t have the right classes or grade point. Your delusions don’t make them reality.
Like or Dislike: 5 9
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!
It’s what our country is supposed to be about. Nothing more needs to be said.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 23 38
Rick, it’s a question of double standards. College players are given the benefit of the doubt according to coaches and university administrations, while real students aren’t. Take the case at UND. A guy was accused of rape. UND expelled him. He was exonerated and, in fact, a warrant was issued for the false accuser. UND refused to readmit him. Thing is, if he had had a 140 mph slapshot, none of it would have happened.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 64 11
Hmm felony RAPE vs misdemenor voter fraud???? I think one might be more serious and cause more of a pubblic endangerment issue. I doubt a student who is NOT an athlete would be kicked out of a university for a misdemenor…
Also as far as your example that shows what happens when a rush to judgment is made. He paid a high price for something he did not do and it will follow him the remainder of his life.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 13 26
Hmm felony sexual assault vs misdemenor voter fraud???? I think one might be more serious and cause more of a public endangerment issue. I doubt a student who is NOT an athlete would be kicked out of a university for a misdemenor…
Also as far as your example that shows what happens when a rush to judgment is made. He paid a high price for something he did not do and it will follow him the remainder of his life.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 15 27
It’s an A misdemeanor, one step below a felony. The consequences of their action were that measures which would affect ND law could have been placed on the ballot. So this extends beyond a simple fottball player prank, but extends to goverment action over everyone. No attempt at watering down their action will dilute that. Simply said, the NDSU football coach is only thinking about wins and losses. Keep the players, despite their actions, you likely win. Suspend them, you likely lose. You win and your salary and perqs go up next year.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 46 11
I agree with Gene on this one Glen, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. It is either innocent until proven guilty or it is not.
In the case of the UND student accused of rape, the judge did not feel he was a threat to society and he was released on bail. Same as these guys following formal charges.
If they are free to resume their lives with stipulations (terms of bail), so is he.
You cannot have it both ways. Preferential treatment of athletes is the norm, not the exception. The schools need them so they do what they have to to keep them.
Why are you pretending it is otherwise?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 27 5
Right, I dare you to try to convince a sexual assault victim that fraud is just a little below rape. One is a simple direct threat to personal security/safety. No way the two are even in the same room as far as seriousness.
Like or Dislike: 4 12
My pointwasn’ the gravity of the offense, but the procedure. At UND, the guy wasn’t even prosecuted, but UND expelled him anyway. And he had to jump through hoops to get back in (Why he wanted to I don’t know.) In this case they got nailed red-handed.
Like or Dislike: 14 3
Glen. In the case under discussion there was no sexual assault. The report was false. Yet, a man had a chunk of his life taken away and his future altered without due process.
You cannot claim due process when it is convenient.
Think of US citizens in Guantanamo. Either the US constitution is worth preserving or protecting or it is not. It is not like this is the first time in 200 years we have faced treason.
You cannot be politically expedient and still American. The two are mutually exclusive: or should be.
Like or Dislike: 6 1
sorry but I will never agree with your assertion that an accusation of sexual assault is equal with an accusation of fraud. I understand the young man was later cleared and paid a high price for the false accusation ( in some ways a false accusation is as devastating to a man as an assault is to a victim). Could you imagine the outcry and the danger to him if he had been allowed to remain on campus? My assertion stands you can not compare the two accusations realistically.
Like or Dislike: 2 2
There was a time when messing with an election was as unpopular as flag burning. Disregard for petition rules is probably fairly common. So much so that many are looking at this as a schoolboy prank. Of course, it’s much bigger and an example will be made. I’m kind of glad it’s not at the expense of the other 70 players. Still, I see the double standard thing, but I’m sure okay with it. I guess that makes me a hypocrite. Oh, well.
Hot debate. What do you think? 20 17
If the athletes are out than so should be the UND students charged with drug crimes. All I ask for is fairness. The same rules should apply to all. Like Tom stated in the article…indecent exposure allegations against a player got him kicked off the team before he had his day in court. Well then there you go. These players should be kicked off the team as well. They won’t be though. NDSU is fighting for their season. They have a title to defend. Let’s face it…athletes get a pass if the season is in doubt. We see it in the pros and it happens at the college level as well. The lawyers will stall until after the season.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 39 3
The NDSU player given the axe for indecent exposure was injured and of no use to the coach. His day in court didn’t apply. These guys are mainly starters, and HAVE to play against Colorado State. As I said, it’s the old double standard. Which is why Bresciani should have had the guts to make the decision.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 43 6
This whole discussion of punishment brings me to my favorite bug a boo lately: the completely unexplainable punishments given for one crime and the total lack of punishment metted out to another.
Case in point: the paper ran a story a few days ago (might have been the Fargo paper) about a 19 year old who was sentenced for molesting a 12 year old. He got 5 years plus sex offender status (His life in any meaningful sense is over. He will never work anywhere beside Valley Dairy car wash) with credit for the one year he has already been behind bars. Molesting a 12 year old is hardly a victimless crime.
Now fast forward to all the hoopla and hullabelloo over the kids who cooked up the bad batch of ecstasy. These people did not force themselves or their deadly product on anyone. In fact, if the stories are to be believed, the two who died went to considerable lengths to get the product. If convicted these people will face a minimum mandatory sentence of 20 years. More if they get nailed with all the charges.
Now many will disagree with me but I do not blame the dealer, I blame the user. To me, locking a drug dealer up and throwing away the key is very similar to charging the liquor store clerk with murder after his patron dies of cirrhosis.
Like I said, many if not most will disagree with me. I do not think the dealer is not culpable, but allowing society to place all the blame on them instead of where it belongs – with the user – is simply people trying to make themselves feel better about their child’s death. In our society we find it difficult to be mad at dead people.
In effect, these 8 or 11 players negated 1000s of man hours of work, hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by the initiative supporters on both sides, and deprived the citizens of a basic civil liberty: the right to vote.
Hardly a victimless, “its only a misdemeaner” crime.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 36 6
You’re talking North Dakota, fn. A sort of Oz or Wonderland, where a DUI is a B and what they did was an A. You’re also talking about a school where the only thing that means anything is football…that is it’s only purpose. Even though their championship gets a 3 line paragraph in Sports Illustrated. That a coach was allowed to determine their fate as athletes, and that the president hid under his desk, only taking time out to change his underware, and never said a thing about their status as students, speaks volumes.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 32 9
I’ll assume you mean underWARE to be cute instead of the correct underWEAR. @ any rate you are apparently so anti college sports that you make ridiculous claims about football being the only thing a college cares about. Ridiculous considering all of the professional people colleges that play football graduate.
Like or Dislike: 6 15
Nice try…although you did get the underware allusion. When coaches are making more in a couple years than faculty make in a career, yeah, sports is more important.
Gene, as you capitalists say “the price of a coach is what the market will bear”. Ticket sales & TV contracts generates money way beyond what the college needs to come up with out of taxpayer money.
Like or Dislike: 5 1
It’s the price that the market will bear, because universities have so skewed their priorities that athletics are god. U of Oregon builds a new football stadium and eliminates whole academic department. U of Florida dumps its Dept of Computer Sciences and ups its athletic budget to $99 million.
Like or Dislike: 12 0
No doubt priorities are skewed but it is still the market capitalists apologize for. @ any rate colleges use sports, especially football & BB to advertize their schools to potential incoming students & to generate connections to wealthy alumni who contribute to all kinds of campus programs. The outcomes generated by college sports in terms of students attracted to be students & alumni to contribute their estates likely outweighs the costs of the athletics themselves. I agree though things are out of wack & that is the kind if backwards society capitalism creates.
Like or Dislike: 3 4
Let’s change the scenario a bit. Say it is a motor car manufacturer instead of a drug dealer. The buyer is the customer. The company fails to put decent brakes on the car and the first time you have to use the brakes, they fail and you die. So it is your fault for buying a car with a defect and the company has no responsibility. Sounds different when you change the players doesn’t it?
Like or Dislike: 5 6
didn’t know making cars was a felony.
Like or Dislike: 8 5
Drug overdoses are just another form of natural selection.
Like or Dislike: 15 3
The more details that come out, the more the real story becomes obvious. Football players are hired at $11 per hour/8 hour day to get signers for petitions and are told how to do it right. Well for $88 per day, they figure why should they waste a lot of shoe leather and time when their buddy tells them how to do it the easy way – make up names and addresses, use the phone book or names of people they see in publications. Eighty names per day – about one hour work and a nice $88. Only football players from out of state would care less about what the subject of the petition happened to be or how important it is to the state voters. Its fast and easy money and the polling company should also bear some blame for not doing the most elemental of checks on the petitions. The organizers of the petitions should put a lawsuit on the company, at least in the case of the conservation petition or demand their money be refunded. As for keeping the players active, not a good idea when it is pretty obvious that a crime did occur. Many have been suspended for lesser violations.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 23 1
I didn’t see this particular petition, but I was approached with the conservation funds petition. When I wouldn’t sign I the young college aged woman circulating the petition made a snotty remark. After reading that many of these initiative petitions are being circulated by hired guns I became somewhat angered. If someone isn’t personally vested in the cause it opens the door for fraud. Considering the amount of cheating that goes on and the lack of ethics is it any wonder such a proposition soon looks like easy money? I don’t think this should be swept under the rug and Bismarck ought to be start rattling the cage. Of course that won’t happen because the legalization of marijuana in any form is unpopular. The powers that be are probably happy the initiative went down in a ball of flames. This crime is an affront to our system of government and an injustice to the voters of North Dakota.
Like or Dislike: 13 0
There is an interesting editorial in today’s Fargo paper about the issues we have been discussing. UND fans and alumni in GF are not the only one’s rejecting the blatent hypocricy in this situation; Bison supporters are less than happy as well.
Like or Dislike: 16 3
editorial said nothing of Bison supporters, also the solution proposed is to reinstate the one player, not suspend the others.
Like or Dislike: 7 1
The editorial was poorly written. No credit and the first part started out like they disapproved and it concluded with a lame solution. I didn’t know if the remedy was sarcasm or real based on how the editorial was written.
Like or Dislike: 9 0
I never called for their suspension. Only fairness. Athletes receive enough legal benefits. They do not need under the table ones. Just ask USC
Like or Dislike: 4 2
Really I don’t see how there’s even room for argument with this, we are talking about a State University with a Division I football program, the loss of these players would not only have a huge negative impact on their football program but in the long run would end up costing the state a lot of money. We’re talking about professional atheletes here that are being accused of a crime, not some backyard football game… There’s a good reason that this coach couldn’t pull those players even if he wanted to right now, they have been accused of commiting that crime, not convicted, there’s a big difference there, especially when dealing with atheletes who’s careerr could be at jeapordy as a result of any unecessary action. For all we know right now, this whole event could have been a political move by a different party, what if all these players are found innocent after having been pulled from the field? This would put both NDSU and other parties at a huge risk for liability which would then cost them some serious money. I believe that they were well aware of this and have made the only decision they could have made while keeping the best interests of the players, the school, and the state in mind…
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 3 20
I believe that this is a much more sensitive topic on many of the different perspectives which some aren’t seeing quite clearly, we are talking about the futures of more than a few students here, making a bad desicion based on “public opinion” could cost these kids any opportunity to play professional ball as well as their careers, in my opinion the choice was wise, no matter how much grief the public gives them…
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 4 15
It’s a shame the other team members may be affected by this but it is their fellow team membrs who let them down not the public.
Like or Dislike: 15 1
Maybe they have, but then again maybe they haven’t… What has been released to the public has been very little information, like I said this could all be a political ploy. If they are convicted then yes, I most definitely agree with the comments being made, but until then those that are involved are making smart decisions by not “presuming their guilt”…
Like or Dislike: 3 10
Coddling them, shielding them from the consequences of their actions and underplaying the severity of their actions doesn’t prepare them for the real world. Are they football players or are they students?
Like or Dislike: 9 1
It doesn’t matter what they are, they are also United States Citizens, and until they are proven guilty they are presumed innocent, this is the way our entire legal system is built… How about if the roles were reversed, what would you say if somebody came to your door to charge you with a crime that somebody else said that you commited, because of this your employer decides to let you go, your husband/wife decides to leave you, and then when you finally arrive to court the charges are thrown out. Now how would you feel about the situation…
Like or Dislike: 6 8
You miss the whole point and the concept of double standards. When administrators, faculty, or students are charged with something, they are put on leave or suspended. There is already a precedent at NDSU of a football player charged and suspended. He was injured and of no use to the coach. These guys are starters, indispensible elements to the team. So let’s face it, this is all about winning football games…which is what NDSU is all about. Again, it should have been Bresciani’s decision, not the coach’s.
Like or Dislike: 14 2
That’s what I was thinking. In the working world people are suspended with or without pay pending investigations. It has nothing to do with innocent until proven guilty. That concept is reserved for the courts. Employers and schools create their own codes of conduct and consequences for violations and these codes are usually adhered to in an equitable manner for all employees and students.
Like or Dislike: 10 0
Apparently NDSU has now officially buried the matter. And why not? They beat Colorado St convincingly…that is the whole point of the school’s existence.
No Gene, now many HS students & alumni who pay attention to football think, hey this is a college that sounds like it would be fun to attend or send part of my estate to. I think I’ll go there instead of UND. Mission accomplished for NDSU’s future enrollment goals.
Like or Dislike: 6 5
Corruption in football programs has not affected enrollment at USC, Ohio St, Miami, SMU, etc.
Off topic: Every new story today open for comment has a Page Not Found. Is this how the Herald plans on closing reader participation?
Like or Dislike: 8 0
I noticed too Gene. Would have enjoyed participating in the action about how the state is going to handle property taxes.
Like or Dislike: 3 0
Pretty much the same today. If the Herald is elimating reader response they should just say so.
Like or Dislike: 2 0
And just how do you know that Gene?
Like or Dislike: 0 0
may as well throw the NDSU student code of behavior out the window
Like or Dislike: 2 1
So another ND college dumps a FB player because he’s gay (no commentary allowed on the Herald post). College athletics antics are really unbelieveable.
Like or Dislike: 1 1
No that is what he claims. We do not know that his claim is true it could be but it could also be an attempt on his part to cloud the issue and deflect blame from himself. No doubt this will end up in court.
Like or Dislike: 0 1
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