ND chancellor proposes sweeping higher education changes; UND admission would become more difficult
August 14, 2012 at 7:00 am in Grand Forks Herald
Hamid Shirvani, chancellor of the North Dakota University System, has proposed a major overhaul to the state’s higher education system an overhaul that stands to affect nearly every future North Dakota college student. Shirvani released details of his proposal, which aims to increase the quality of public higher education in the state, to the Grand Forks Herald editorial board this morning.
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Stricter admission standards are LONG OVERDUE.
1/3 of current college students have NO BUSINESS being in college. The only reason they’re there is because someone else made the decision for them, and is paying the bills.
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What is your degree in?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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MY degree?
Associate of Science, from a one-year “business management” course at what used to be known as NDSSS.
Total waste of my time, money, effort, and enthusiasm. I tested out of my entire third quarter; and went home early.
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As someone who works in the education field, I can assure you that your 1/3 of the students are in school because someone else is paying the bills statement is false. 80% of all college student’s primary source of funding is financial aid. Just wanted to clarify.
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Higher Ed needs and overhaul. I think these changes are a good start. I agree with Schurkey, alot of kids are only there because it’s “the thing to do” and mom and dad are footing the bills.
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i no alot off coledge stutents that cant even spel! get fore yeer degrie den big jobe whith it.
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lol
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It was called “higher” education decades ago because it was for the best and the brightest. Then universities adopted the business model, and revenue streams became the priority, which meant anyone who could sign a check got in. Then you had the necessity of establishing remedial (i.e., bonehead) courses, material that should have been learned in K-12, until K-12 became a “fun” place. That is not going to change, despite Shirvani’s best efforts. UND can establish standards which “officially” are more stringent, but will continue to accept anyone who can sign a check.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Sir, you really need to look at a university’s requirements and accredidation and think about your “anyone who can sign a check gets in” statement.
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I agree with 99% of his proposals. The 1% deals with Community College admission standards: there should not be any. Community Colleges should be open enrollment. They are designed to provide either a technical education (auto mechanics, heating and air conditioning, plumbing, etc.) or prepare people for “higher education.”
The fact that half of any given high school graduation class is not ready for college is only partly the student’s fault. The rest is a system that allowed them to graduate in the first place.
That said, you take people where they are, not where they should be. If you 1. dropped out, 2. got a GED, 3. have a diploma but didn’t deserve it: you need a place to go. You need a way to get into the system so you can have a career that involves more than saying “would you like fries with that.”
That place is the Community College. You show up as you are, get tested to join the classes you need to be in to get up to speed, and progress from there.
Additionally, 50% of any college or university’s freshman class will not graduate. This is true of any school in any state, not just ND. Most people who begin do not finish. Community Colleges provide a way to help weed out these folks from the four year schools. In other words they open up room in the freshman class for those students most likely to graduate in 5 years (a four year degree, especially in the sciences, is almost impossible anymore).
Make UND and NDSU hard to get into. Absolutely. Do not make Community Colleges a place that turn people away. What do we have to replace them if the student does not measure up?
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You are spitting into the wind. Shirvani is coming from CA which has a community college system just as you describe. In ND, you have a situation where all the institutions are supposed to be “equal.” So much so, that years ago, the UND president was told he could not use the term “flagship university,” because it would make the other 10 feel badly. Nevermind that most of those 10 are really just high schools.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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One of my profs at UND described Community Colleges as high schools with ash trays. We all laughed but she was correct. It is unfortunate that they are needed, but there is no denying the fact that they are. There has to be someplace for the less than stellar academic performers to go.
Additionally, not everyone wants or is cut out for college. I sometimes wonder if the German system which tests all high schoolers and then places them into one of two tracks (vocational ed or college prep) might not be better.
The only problem with the German system is once you are in the vocational tract it is almost impossible to get moved over to the college prep. Once you pigeonhole the kid, unless his parents can afford private schools, he/she is stuck
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Ja wohl. Das ist richtig. Thing is, in North Dakota, higher ed ceased long ago to be about education. It’s purpose is to assure economic impact to the cities in which the institutions are located. That is why the SBHE approved duplicative programs which had no academic validity; just to be able to offer a major no matter how weak academically. Take some time and access the catalogs of the 11 campuses. Compare major and minor requirements. A number of schools count English comp as credits to the major. Same with algebra and 1st year language. Look at who is on the faculty, and what degrees they have. It’s an eye-opener.
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Actual these determinations are made before Gymnasium (High School). These decisions are made at the equivalent of our middle school for placement in Gymnasiums and Universities. They start with our equivalent of the 4.0 and work their way down the grade chart until the number of chairs they have available are filled. Once the chairs are filled the rest are relegated to tech schools.
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I didn’t have time to type the reply I wanted as I was at work.
In Germany Education is free. It is paid for by the Government and taxes. To note they have very high taxes. Everything is supplied down to the sheets of paper you take notes on (well that is what they did when I was stationed there. The iPad wasn’t even a dream back then), calculators, pens etc. Parents could choose to send their children to private schools, but they still had to test in order to get into University. I am not sure if there were ‘private’ universities or not..
Students who wanted to attend High School and Universities needed to get the equivalent of our 4.0 on their report card. If they didn’t you were not guaranteed a spot in the next level of education. Students were expected to take two languages, along with math, science, history etc. Classes like knitting 101, shop, home ec get you into college. Students were also expected to participate in one sport. In addition to their grades they had to take test to achieve the next level of education. (Sort of like the SAT)
If your attempt was unsuccessful then trade schools were really your only route to providing yourself a living. I am not sure if I agree or disagree quite honestly. I go back and forth..
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Thanks for the synopsis Mav. That is pretty much what I remember too (except I thought the testing/sorting happened later).
Like you I am torn. Pigeonholing a kid can be disastrous. Then again, over there people graduate with a skill and a means of making a living. Here we graduate our kids without the ability to count change AFTER they ask if you would like fries with that.
I would love to hear from someone who has been there more recently than either you or I. Specifically, what is life like now that the Berlin Wall is down.
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If life and work ever calms down a little I would love to get back there and see what I helped bring down..
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maverick – College in Germany may be free, but where to the brightest German students go to study? The United States. What does that tell you about free higher education?
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“One of my profs at UND described Community Colleges as high schools with ash trays. ”
Funny. That is EXACTLY how I was describing my Alma Mater thirty years ago. The two common phrases I heard way back then were “High School with ash trays” and “Suitcase College”, because only the most destitute or longest-distance students stayed in their dorms over the weekend. Everyone else drove home and was glad to get the hell out of Wahpeton.
I’m guessing that a byproduct of ND indoor air laws is that they’ve removed the ash trays from NDSCS.
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That is funny, but do you think just maybe this professor was criticizing another school to possibly keep students at UND? Very unprofessional of a professor to do this also.
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Be happy. Shirvani’s proposal keeps open enrollment for the community colleges. Raised standards are only for the four-year schools.
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That is great, but since there are as many four year schools as two, we need to bridge the gap somehow.
I would keep the four year schools basically open enrollment. There is no need for a three tiered system. That seems a little counterproductive.
For what its worth, I would love to teach at Mayville. I like small schools. That is why I transferred back to UND from UA.
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I feel sorry for Shirvani, I really do. He is a lamb coming to the slaughter. There is no way he knows the history of higher ed in ND, whereby two incompetent insiders, Isaak and Goetz, knew the ropes. while the one outsider, Potts, was sent fleeing because the conman at NDSU, Chapman, understood how to play politics. My guess is that the first time he tries to defy UND or NDSU, he will know the story. That will happen this year. His second year will be spent applying for other jobs. The third year, Carlson will be hired.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I hear the Spanish Program has the easiest “As” on the UND campus. Must be all those mad-at-the-world, axe-to-grind-with-the-system neer do wells they have for faculty. They could care less and spend most of their time whining online, anyway.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You’re exactly right. Now open up your wallet and pay me more money.
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No. Times are tough and the state has to tighten it’s belt. Oh wait a minute…that’s Minnesota. Never mind Gene.
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Oh, I never minded from the start. I don’t know who this Miguel de Cervantes is, but since the original died in 1616, and this one didn’t post in Spanish, I don’t think what he had to say carries much weight.
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Unfortunately TJ. If you live in GF, the closest Tech is MN, so our kids feel your kid’s pain. In order to get my oldest out of his mother’s house, but have the grand baby close enough for me to cuddle, I think I am going to send his A%$ to Mayville State. It is really a Community College with two bachellor’s degrees.
Close enough to be close, far enough away to be far enough away. I’d shoot for Moorhead but his younger brother is a dragon and he would kill me if I shipped his brother down.
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Read the Mayville St catalog before you send him there. He’d get a better education at Central High School.
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There is no shame in going to a technical college Fly. The world needs electricians. Someone has to keep the lights burning for you the rest of the career students to study by late into the evenings.
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I agree 100% TJ. That is why I am fighting so hard to keep them accessible to anyone who asks.
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So, if 23% of the university system students need remedial education, how many tenured professors are we paying to teach high school English? Now, couple that with the fact that the average teaching load for a semester is about two classes for tenured faculty (for a nine month job) and I have question how in the world tenured faculty can believe they are underpaid. And don’t tell me it is hard work, I’ve taught graduate level courses and still worked a full time job in the private sector; teaching didn’t come remotely close in difficulty.
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Tenured professors teaching remedial classes? Not many(if any). Those classes are usually taught by lecturers(NDSU) or instructors(UND). Different names for the same job. It’s a non-tenure position that usually requires a master’s. It’s also possible that some might be taught by graduate assistants with only bachelor’s, but I don’t know if that happens a lot or a little.
And tenured professors teaching two classes normally only happens when the professor is expected to do significant amounts of research. The research is as much a part of their job as the teaching. It’s why NDSU & UND are called research schools. It’s part of the “publish or perish” system. If you aren’t doing enough research to be regularly published, you either won’t get tenure or you’ll be “encouraged” to move on. Some professors at NDSU & UND do teach four classes, but that’s normally in departments that are not research-based(music and the like). Other professors are split 50/50 and teach about two classes. A few are dedicated research positions and have virtually no teaching duties at all; that’s not what their employed for.
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Oops. “they’re” not “their”
stupid homonyms and lack of editing
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Hammersmith, you’ve restated the academia “party-line” very well. However, there is absolutely no accountability for the research and publishing portion of the job. You assert that if a tenured faculty member fails to research or publish they are “encouraged” to move along, but they can’t be forced to move along and, if they haven’t been doing anything, the likelihood that they’d have the opportunity to move along is close to zero. Yes, there are faculty members that research and publish, but many of tenured faculty members do not publish on a regular basis and often times are given paid sabbaticals to allow time to research and publish. For example, I have more peer reviewed published works than approximately 80% of the faculty in the same discipline at UND, and I work in private industry. Among those that do publish much of it is meaningless drivel with little or no actual value (how many more reviews of Shakespeare do we need?) With very few exceptions, when UND posts an open teaching position the number of applications for the position number in the dozens or even hundreds, which implies to me that the position is not underpaid. I would be interested to know what percentage of the tenured faculty actually published peer reviewed materials in the last twelve months; I intentionally used the term peer reviewed to exclude book reviews and other incidental articles that do not require and research or true publication. As for the use of instructors, graduate assistance and lecturers I agree with you that they carry the bulk of the remedial teaching load, and a fair amount of the undergraduate teaching load. That simply supports my view that the average tenure instructor isn’t busting his back.
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You raise a number of valid points. Most publications are so arcane as to be incomprehensible, whether it be on Shakespeare, Russell’s Paradox, or territorialty in yellow baboon colonies. But that is what university professors are taught to do from their first day of grad school. It’s never been a question of reaching the general population.
The increased number of applications simply reflects the job market; there are fewer faculty positions available. Nationwide, 27-30% of teaching positions are held by tenure-track and tenured faculty. The rest are visting positions, adjuncts, and TAs. As faculty leave, universities generally eliminate positions or make it a non-tenure appointment. The consequence of this is that the 4-year degree is becoming a thing of the past. At UND, for example, more than 50% of undergraduates take 6 years to get a degree, simply because courses fill up and there are no people to teach a second section. So students have to wait another year.
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Gene, I agree with you 100% that there are many more applicants than available teaching positions. Heck, just a couple of months ago the Herald ran an article about Nick Spaeth (former attorney general, Stanford Law School graduate, Supreme Court law clerk, adjunct law school faculty member, Fortune 500 corporate counsel) who couldn’t get a permanent job teaching. Regardless of the reason, the point is that there are many applicants for each of those positions. When the qualified applicants greatly outnumber the available positions there is no reason to be talking about increasing faculty salary. The number of faculty members that quit to go into private practice is nominal, which clearly implies that there isn’t a compensation problem.
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“If you want a good system you have to change the standards,” he said.
Huh? The quality and preparation level of the students are what’s ‘wrong’ with the system? He sings an arrogant, entrenched song – one, that we’ve seen by a few comments here – fits well with those that live in and for ivory towers. [Notice how much time these people have on their hands to spend as much time as they do spouting their opinions about everything under the sun? I'm jealous.]
I was hoping that someone at the end of his career would be willing to do some real groundbreaking work in how the students will be prepared to go to work and be successful in a future that holds lots of questions about where jobs will be and who will fill them. Want to do get enlightened? Do some reading re: the correlation of high college grades and success in a person’s career. Bet you’ll be suprised. Better yet, look at the correlation between high entrance scores (e.g., SAT) and success in college. Bet you’ll be even more surprised.
I’m not too surprised that such an educated man could be so dumb as to how he is entering the politics of higher ed in ND. You see, folks, several degrees guarantee nothing about a person’s ability to understand some things. Hope he’s a quick learner.
And for you folks who disparage such places at Mayville State, what arrogant, naive, egotistical minds you have to believe that as prepared or even better prepared people graduate from their programs as do those from UND. And, by the way, I’m a UND grad – three times over.
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Prairie: we have often discussed that ND biggest problem is not with it’s education system, but the lack of jobs that require that education.
We are an old state because our children leave. They leave because after 4-6 years in school they can’t find a job that utilizes what they have learned – or earns enough to pay back their student loans.
As for incoming freshman being unprepared for college level work: that is the bane of every school in every state. UCLA was complaining about it recently. Trust me, if you are not the top 5% of your class you are not going there.
We need to rethink who does what. Open enrollment community colleges & universities that are just that – places of higher learning. Not a place to continue adolescence after high school.
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ND’s youth have been leaving for over a century, early on this was the result of an agrarian society. Eight-child families to run the farm, one child inherits it. The other seven go elsewhere. This was the case of my mother’s family. I once read somewhere that more people born in ND live in other states than have stayed. Thing is, the state has NEVER done anything to remedy that.
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FN, I’m not talking about creating jobs in ND so people can stay in ND. I’m talking about trying to prepare people for what’s ahead – no matter where they sleep at the end of their workday. It’s a mystery to me – with how our knowledge base has increased exponentially – that we even think a four year degree means much of anything. For the most part, Higher Ed is an outmoded system. And what do “leaders” do when they really don’t know what to do, but want to try to appear as if they do? They promise to increase production, aka raise ‘standards.’ And people fall for that rhetoric.
Tell me, what will ‘raising standards’ really accomplish? For anyone? What will it really do? What will it really mean? What will it really matter? Again, what will it really matter? I’d much prefer that our focus/resources are put in the grade schools – another system that needs total revamping.
I could go on and on about how it wasn’t the best and brightest that made some of the most critical contributions that make all of our lives better. But those who “believe in” numbers and rankings and labels and image, they can’t see past their own need for such.
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Our education system was designed for an agrarian and manufacturing society. We are no longer either. The trouble is the system has not kept up.
We have to import scientists because we are not producing enough of our own.
If we do not bring the floor up, we will all be working for someone else, someone who does not live here and views us nothing more than inventory.
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FN, WHO is saying we have a shortage of scientists? More importantly WHY are they saying it?
I don’t know if active links are allowed here, so please Google “Columbia Journalism Review + What Scientist Shortage” and read the article.
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I have since learned active links are allowed. Here is the link to the article:
http://www.cjr.org/reports/what_scientist_shortage.php?page=all
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Prairie: no need for active links. US made Mark 40 Eyeballs will do. Go to any high tech company, be it Apple, HP, or Microsoft & ask if they have the personnel they need to do their job. Then ask their HR department how many Visas they sponsor every year in an attempt to fill the positions.
I recently had a meeting with a big defense contractor in San Diego. It is a company that develops optics for the US military. The manager I was having lunch with freely admitted he had as many foreign nationals on his staff as people eligible to run for President. This is a place where you need a security clearence to mop the floors.
Our future defense needs are being outsourced at home.
Are you certain you want to argue our future is rosy & all this talk about America falling behind is just so much rubbish?
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Too bad you didn’t read the article, fn. I guess it’s hard to consider broadening your perspective from any other source except “me, myself and I.” Your personal experiences do not ‘the’ truth make.
Did I say the future was ‘rosy’? I don’t recall writing that, or even implying it. Let me check…Nope. Didn’t write it. Didn’t imply it.
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And for you folks who disparage such places at Mayville State, what arrogant, naive, egotistical minds you have to believe that as prepared or even better prepared people graduate from their programs as do those from UND.
That should read: …minds you have not to believe that as prepared…
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Mayville State is great for what it does, but it is not on par with UND or NDSU. It is not supposed to be. If it is, UND & NDSU need to be closed & redone from the bottom up.
People dislike ranking schools & people because no matter how you sugar coat it, you are saying one is better than the other. That is correct.
All schools are not the same – do people respect a degree from Harvard more than UND?
I believe everyone needs an education. Everyone does not need to go to Harvard to succeed.
For the record I was turned down by Harvard but both UNiversity of Arizona & University of Florida picked me up.
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FN, a grad student friend of mine took a position at Harvard. This was some years ago now, but at the time she told me the program we both completed was more difficult than what was expected in a similar program at Harvard. She said they had nothing over us. She wasn’t one to embellish or toot her own horn, but no matter, it was still an opinion of hers. I have no way of knowing if it was accurate.
My point is that there is a lot we believe that isn’t accurate. It may not be accurate that a degree from Harvard should garner any more ‘respect’ than one from UND or Mayville State for that matter. It is not accurate that those who attend certain colleges or score the highest on entrance exams or get the highest grades in college are going to be the most successful or contribute the most when they are in the real working world. What happens when they are in the real world is, after all, what matters.
Those who want to believe that scores and grades cull the best from the less, may they work and live in ivory towers forever.
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In may career I have worked with two Rhodes Scholars, a Nobel Laureate, and a honest to God Oxford Don. I agree, they put their pants on one leg at a time (Except for the Don, he was a certified genius. He was the smartest human I have ever seen. Trouble was he was so smart he was stupid. His wife used to call us and make sure we reminded him to eat. He would get so engrossed in whatever problem he was solving he would not drink, eat, shower, or do any of the other things required to live in society. Think Ted Kazinski without the bombs).
I also agree our higher education system was built for last century’s economy. Trouble is, we stand zero chance of competing in the world the way we are going.
We have to import scientists because we cannot produce enough of our own. What happens when they stop coming?
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I, again, refer you to the article I referenced in one of my above responses to you.
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I guess I’m in the minority here, but I really don’t care. I believe all of our citizens equally own these colleges and all citizens should have an equal right to access them. I could see a probationary system for the first year for those less stellar performers, but to not allow them the chance to seek their dreams would be a travesty to what I believe our country is all about. When I went to college I found many of the highest most intelligent kids had trouble making the grade while many of the “C” students in high school did great in college. Living conditions make a huge impact on high school kids. Some it hinders, some it helps. But once they’re on their own in college things change. And they change a LOT! You an be the smartest kid in your class but if you’re not at college to buckle down and learn you’re wasting your time and your money. But if you’re one of those who screwed around in high school and didn’t test that well but have a strong desire to fulfill your dreams your studying hard in college can easily put you well above those others. With that being said, I believe all kids should have the chance. But if after a year you’re not making the grade, then I’d agree and say you’re probably in the wrong place and need to leave. But taking away the American dream of attending a good college so you too can have a great life is elitist. I realize that those of you born with the golden spoons and who think you’re better than everyone else hate having to deal with us commoners, but this is America and in America all of us are given a chance to succeed. Whether we do or not should be up to us. And as long as these colleges are STATE owned and operated they are owned by every single resident of this state and have the responsibility to give each of us a chance.
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While I agree in theory, in practice things are different. We are talking about scarce resources. There simply is not enough seats for everyone that applies.
I like Community Colleges that seamlessly feed into the college/university system because then the less than stellar kid can transfer without losing credits. His/her degree is from the University. No one knows or cares where his/her prerequisites were done.
Right now we treat each institution as a separate, stand alone entity. That is silly. If I am a grad student at UND I should be able to sign up for classes at NDSU without having to apply there & vice versa. Similarly, any class above 100 should transfer. Right now you can take college algebra at the tech, & it may or may not be accepted at the university. That is asinine.
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Good plan…until someone from Grand Forks has to move to Devils Lake (paying room and board rather than living at home) to attend college because he/she didn’t meet some arbitrary score determined by the chancellor. Not sure how that addresses access and affordability.
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Chet: your point is valid, but leaves the main question unanswered: does everyone “deserve” a spot at a university simply because they live in the same town or pay taxes or graduated from HS?
This is not an idle question. It is at the heart of this discussion.
If the Chancellor’s reforms go through (que Star Wars music) remedial classes will no longer be taught at UND or NDSU. That means you either have to raise standards above the level of those classes or prepare for the annual washout rate to at least double.
Again we are talking scarce resources. There simply are not enough seats to accommodate all who apply.
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I don’t necessarily disagree with the plan. I envision LRSC hiring adjunct faculty to provide such services at UND. My point relates more to the politics involved (with the public and the legislature). Unless there is a way to keep that student in Grand Forks until he/she is accepted to UND, I’m not sure how this will stand up to scrutiny by those citing access and affordability, is all.
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Now you are approaching the crux of the problem of higher ed in ND. If only citizens of ND were admitted, you’d need maybe 3 schools. The fact that over 50% of UND enrollment comes from outstate angers people here, but underscores the sad fact that that tuition money is needed. Last stats I saw revealed that ND’s appropriation to UND covers 24% of the budget. Which is better than some other states. Tuition and fees double that. So, you need big enrollments and the revenue they provide. Lamentably, this has engendered a business model, which seeks to reduce accounts payable. So, as I said above, UND saves money by lowering more expensive faculty positions, by hiring cheaper TAs and adjuncts. The consequences for this occur from the third year on, when students can’t get their major reqs, and end up taking six years to get a degree. But this too works out great for UND, since it gets an extra 2 years of tuition money.
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Not sure that this is about how many seats are available.
This is more about the soft tyranny of low expectations.
If you do not expect or demand a certain level of competence from your workers, students, or children you will get exactly that…incompetence.
There are people that I work with that have graduated college…a four year college…and they cannot construct a coherent paragraph.
That is scary.
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For once I agree with you Always. THAT is scary.
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“If you do not expect or demand a certain level of competence from your workers, students, or children you will get exactly that…incompetence.”
THANK YOU, thank you, thankyouthankyouthankyou.
I worked at a job where a co-worker BRAGGED that he hadn’t read a book since he got out of high school. He was quite proud of that. Judging by typical internet enthusiast forums, spelling and grammar are already history. Perhaps I’m being baited by twelve-year olds posing as adults.
Fast food workers can brandish tattoos and piercings, but they can’t count change, and they don’t get fired. Don’t get me started on the incompetence of the fast food “MANAGERS”; particularly at Taco Bell.
And, of course, nobody cares about “competence” at the Social Services office, where they actually advertise for additional deadbeats because the economy is so wonderful that they don’t have enough parasites bleeding the system.
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I think Mark Twain said it:
“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.”
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You likely belong to the “Spare the rod, spoil the child” club too.
Yes it is scary that such a sad perspective of your co-workers, subordinates, students and children is held by you or anyone. But let’s talk about you. If you are a boss, do the workers get to expect a certain level of competence from you? What if you don’t meet such expectations? What about your kids? If you don’t meet expectations as their parent, can they demand that you do something about it? What about students? If a student believes a tenured professor no longer is motivated to teach, what can s/he do?
Your perspective is all about authority, power and control. It’s the ‘parent’ perspective that is so apparent in our work cultures. The ‘boss’ is the parent and the workers are to be treated like children. The leadership supposedly ‘knows better’ than those ‘below.’
Yes, it’s scary alright. That you actually believe yours is the only ‘way’ to competence. You’ve been conditioned well. Good little widget.
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I agree, nothing stopping these people from learning to write in complete and coherent sentences.
Unfortunately, there is nothing stopping them from graduating either.
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You can base admissions off of ACT’s, high school rank, high school GPA, etc… all you want. But you know what kid is going to be successful in college? The kid that gets their butt out of bed in the morning and doesn’t skip class, and doesn’t go out partying every night and stays home and studies. Do that, and you will graduate from college, don’t do that and you won’t. Simple as that.
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That eliminates about 50% of UND students.
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That eliminates 50% of students nationwide, not just UND.
The fact that 50% of the people who begin college never finish is a nationwide phenomena. While not 50%, the dropout rate for “big” name schools: UCLA, FL, Michigan, Sanford, etc is still well above 30%; and you don’t get into those places unless you are the cream of the crop.
As Genes pointed out earlier, this guy comes from CA where it is almost impossible for an instate student to get into a top ranked school. Top 10% of your class? Negative ghost rider, probably the top 5% AND a steller high school career complete with all the public service nonsense that has nothing to do with anything and at least one sports letter. Don’t even fill out the application if your SAT is below 950.
CA does this on purpose. They know that 50% of students don’t make it to their Junior year so they would rather have them go to the Community College and not take up space at a big name campus.
In return, when I lived there tuition at the Community College was less than $500 for a full time student, including fees. Also, every class over 100 automatically transferred, and if you completed all the requirements, you were guaranteed a spot at a state school.
My friend graduated from UCLA but didn’t move to LA till half way through her Jr. year. She did it all at home (NoCal) then moved down long enough to finish.
The bad part is she could not even tell you what UCLA’s mascot was. She was not enculturated into the whole sorority, sports, school pride thing. UCLA was part of her plan for the paper and the job it would bring.
It is a system that works. Where people have a hard time with it is it gives up any pretense that we are all equal.
We aren’t, but people do not like to hear that.
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Judge Smails: “Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.”
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CA has a tri-partite higher ed system:
U of CA- for the elite students
State U System- for the mediocre
Junior Colleges- for those who never mastered high school
When I taught at the latter, it cost $20 per semester. Of course that was over 30 years ago. I have no idea what tuition is now. But the whole idea was to separate students into 3 groups.
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As long as there is the possibility of upward mobility ( you are not doomed to stay within your caste) between the three strait ions I do not have a hard time with that. Everyone MUST be allowed the chance. No one should be guaranteed an outcome
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It looks like California is still designed that way.
The sad and pathetic and harmful part of this system…is that these students “borrow” money to attend the Junior Colleges.
The schools are happy to admit them, the instructors are happy to process (not teach) them….and why is that?
Because the government guarantees that the teachers and schools get paid.
Now…this would be a great deal for the student, if the school supplied them with the skills or competence to get a job or career…
but a job or career is not guaranteed…just the schools money.
Great deal…for the teachers….they get paid no matter what happens to the student.
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In the old days, CA junior colleges had two missions: day students trying to get into the State U system, and evening adult education courses. I taught in the latter: people who worked all day and then took night courses to enhance their job opportunities.
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Gene: I still think that is the way it should be. There is merit with that system.
My experience teaching at the CC level was positive. Then again, I was teaching paramedic students so they entered the program with a specific goal in mind (usually getting hired by a Fire Department). They tended to be more motivated than your average “I am doing this so dad won’t kick me out of the house or get a full time job” student.
Those kids aren’t bad either. Most grow up just fine.
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Always: why are you so free with taking people’s choices away from them? Personal responsibility. It is up to the student and parent to decide what level of debt to saddle themselves with. It is not my job to tell them to stay at McDonald’s so they can remain debt free.
Nor is it my job to make sure they succeed. What is my job is to make sure they get what they paid for: the information and skills necessary to do the job. I provide the material. It is up to them to use it.
Part of the problem with our system is no child left behind. What a bunch of nonsense. In the US the government has guaranteed you an education up to the 12 grade. There is a big difference between having access to the information (that is why Separate but Equal was shot down) and choosing to use it. I will fight tooth and nail to make sure every kid gets the information they need to succeed.
I will not lose one minute of sleep worrying about whether or not they choose to use it.
If you have contracted HIV/AIDS since the early 1990s you have made a conscious choice to do so. The blood supply is almost 100% clean, the factor hemophiliacs rely on is now genetically engineered so it is impossible to get HIV from it, and the information about how NOT to contract the disease is everywhere.
As a nurse it is my job to educate people. I routinely have talks with sexually active kids that make them squirm because I am very blunt and could care less if I hurt their feelings. When they leave my care I know they have the information to live. If they choose to die that is not something I take responsibility for.
This is very much the same. As teachers we provide the information. It is up to the student to use it.
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Any bets that athletes will be exempt from these admission standards?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gol0aglIXxI
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Coaches have no interest in recruiting students, mainly because during the season their players are dedicating some 60 hours per week to the sport. This is why the big guys hire “tutors” to do the classwork for them. There are now over 20 years of studies showing that athletics have nothing to do with participants being students.
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Gene..translate the following for me please. I believe it is Latin. I can’t figure it out.
Ut est quare vos operor cepit?
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Happy to. It means
Αυτό είναι αυτό που κάνεις καθόλου;
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Just to clarify to some of you folks, and based on some of your comments you must be unaware, but all schools, from Harvard to the smallest community college, have requirements for students to be allowed to attend school. As someone who works in the education field, there are minimum grade point averages and other requirements in order to maintain a school’s accredidation. You do not have a certain level of accredidation, you lose funding from the Deparment of Education. Students are not just coasting by, passing time in college. If you do not meet these requirements, it does not matter if you have a rich Daddy, you are out or on academic probation.
I am happy with the increase in admissions requirements, and that is what they are, an increase. And, if that happens we need to start yesterday at the grade, middle, and high school level with doing one heckuva better job than we are presently doing. My recommendation, increase teachers’ salaries to the level that cream of the crop students look at it as a lucrative career. And, if you are not getting results with the students, find a new career. No more coasting because of tenure, union, or fear of a lawsuit. Make it like every other profession, you fail, you move on.
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I agree, but never going to happen. ND – & the rest of the US – want Tiffany quality on Costco wages. It is not going to happen.
This next statement is going to make me about as popular as a case of chlamydia on prom night, but a big problem with the US K-12 system is the NEA. You CANNOT have your collective bargaining unit be one & the same as your professional organization. The conflict of interest is simply too great.
In nursing the American Nurses Association has tried to do the same thing and fortunately for the profession failed miserably. Their recommendations carry very little weight. The American Association of Critical Care Nurses & other strictly professional organizations have their recommendations taken far more seriously.
It seems counterintuitive, but what is good for the profession is not necessarily good for the employee.
Nursing & K-12 education: both heavily female dominated professions. Which one earns more? Both require advanced degrees to advance but only one recognizes you monitarily for your efforts. One is heavily unionized & one is not.
When you look at the disparity you have to ask yourself why?
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I do not know what institution you are associated with, but I know for a fact UND admits everyone. The Student Standards Committee received over 200 applications which did not meet requirements, and the previous president told that committee to accept them all. Subsequently a UND high official publicly stated that 50% of them passed their first semester. No mention of a gpa.
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Well Gene, then you need to reckeck your facts, because there are several criteria included when admitting a student, such as GPA, scoring on ACT/SAT tests, and others. A student who does not make it on one of those categories may be granted admission on a probational basis conditional on maintaining a minimum GPA, but it is certainly not a case of anyone who applies gets admitted.
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“A student who does not make it on one of those categories may be granted admission on a probational basis”
The problem with giving “waivers” …is that everyone who applies gets one.
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The problem with giving “waivers” …is that everyone who applies gets one…..no sir, they do not. Even with a waiver there are certain criteria that need to be met. And, if you are not averaging a certain GPA with a waiver, you are gone, not matter how much money your folks have. Do not get me wrong, I think the standards need to be raised, but this assumption that colleges have Bluto and Otter from Animal House having their Dad sign checks to keep them in school is simply not the case.
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