What it costs to live here: Feeding the cost of fuel
August 11, 2012 at 3:40 pm in Grand Forks Herald
Drivers familiar with various parts of the region know that gas is not sold in a uniform market.
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What it costs to live here: Feeding the cost of fuel
79 Comments
No comments yet about how the “Grand Forks Cartel” gets together to set prices high?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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the answer is “A gas war”?
80 MILES APART?
Does this guy think we are all stupid?
A gas war is an internalissue within a town which gives drivers a choice and forces the gas stations to compete for our business.
I dont consider Fargo as “Across town”
All Fargo’s prices do is serve to show us how much we are getting shafted in Grand Forks.
And the bullhockey about making no money….
Give me a break.
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Well Jack, it doesnt take an all knowing person to grasp the concept of bankruptcy for those who sell an item for less than they pay for it.
I do hope you were joking.
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Somebody isn’t getting it right….Or is just accepting what they’re being fed. I’ve been working with a company out of Fargo (Though I bring the truck up to Forks 3/4 of the year generally) for around 18 years now. Maybe I missed it some time when I was on the road for three weeks back in the old days, but what I’ve seen consistantly is fargo has always been between a nickle and a dime lower than Forks. When Flying J came to town and immeadiatly ran the same price as Fargo I thought we were finally going to see a break in the local price fixing….but that was one hell of a short honeymoon.
By the by…Last week I came home Wed and it was $3.60 in Fargo and $3.80 in Forks…..When I left Sat it was dropped to $3.75 and raised to $3.65 in Fargo
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Why can people see that there is no price fixing going on? It is price matching. By the way FlyingJ could care less about what they make off gas considering Pilot/Flying J are the largest diesel pumpers in the country and the margin on diesel is much higher than gas.
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btw,
Anyone else sick and tired of these companies thinking they are going unnoticed when they rise the price 10 cents a whack?
Did they forget we still use the penny and nickle too?
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I’ve yammered about this ad infinitum. Unless and until some enterprising owner undercuts the competition by 5-7 cents the situation will continue to be analogous to the price fixing of a gallon of milk.
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That would be the point. Force the competition to bring the price down, instead of all of them sitting comfortably with the same profit. As for milk, the fact the state does it doesn’t legitimize it. God forbid farmers be subjected to capitalism.
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Ah, two fallacious responses in one post. Criticism becomes “whining.” It’s easier than arguing the point logically. Well then, quit “whining” about how tough the gas station owners have it. And, “why don’t you open one?” Someone once told me to open a restaurant when I criticized about the lousy selection in GF. Following that rationale, we should all open something when we disagree or find fault with what exists. I guess that would mean we should all form our own independent governments too.
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That would be great, but I’d rather see the real culprits get taken care of…The Wall Street speculators who keep driving the prices up to make gazillions when there’s no real reason to drive up those prices…….remember that dream world when all this speculation started to drive fuel sky high and the nice politicians said “we’ll look into it and try to fix the problem?” I think that they looked into a huge money pocket that helped fix their campaign fund raising problems because that’s the last we heard of it……
I’d also like to see some legislation that keeps us from getting gouged every time there’s a hint of fuel going up. If they can’t compete with each other then why do we have to pay more for the fuel they have in their tanks that they purchased at a lower price. If price fixing is the legal norm, then they shouldn’t be able to raise above a certain percent on the hint that there might be a shortage so the fuel they have now suddenly jumps way up. If they’re going to do that, then pull off the fix and let them actually compete with each other the way they used to….The fix was to save the little stations from getting undersold, but are there really any independants left anymore?
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Your on the right track here. You are right that it is speculation that drives the price up but then conservatives should not complain since this is the free market at work. The reason the pump price can go up even with fuel in the tanks is to try and keep the books balanced.
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Jack, since you seem to have all the answers….
Why do small counties all around us charge less?
Look at the map.
How can tiny towns in Ramsey county with a fraction of the users can sell gas cheaper than Grand Forks?
If you know, then please explain.
Otherwise, quit trying to defend what is clearly price gouging.
And try to do it without calling names and demanding others open their own stores.
I have better things to do than run a gas station.
If its price gouging, I would respect them a lot more if they just admitted it.
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Whats wrong Jack?
Did i strike a nerve?
Its been a long time since people actually resorted to name calling when not liking one of my posts.
Im guessing you are likely spitting all over your monitor and keyboard as you smash out those upset words.
Need a towel?
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Jack is not willing to admit the obvious collusion going on in Grand Forks, which not only results in the same prices at every station, but prices that are far above those everywhere else. Notice he defends this without explaining or justifying these facts. And, when confronted with these facts, he falls back on the old chestnuts of “whining” and “open your own.” I gues that means if we criticize the Alerus, we should all build our own events center.
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You actually believe a gas station operator is going to reveal his margin, anymore than a jeweler is going to tell you the markup on each diamond is 500%? The point is, there is no difference in the price of gas at any station in Grand Forks, which underscores they are communicating with each other. You have not denied that. Nor have you denied that the price is higher than surrounding communities. Capitalism is great when competition gives the best price to the consumer. When a cartel is formed whereby there is no choice because prices are the same, there is no capitalism.
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As I said previously…It’s the law that the prices stay within a certain range of each other locally because before the big oil companies would drive little stations out of business…….That said…It still seems as though there’s a concerted effort to keep the prices higher than Fargo without any real clear reason for it to be that much higher this close
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Sorry Jack,
I find that when you get 100 people together and 99 of them see that the sky is blue, the one ranting that its mauve is usually the one who is wrong.
Or wearing colored glasses…..
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Forget the dime difference here and there, gas has doubled under President Obama! From around $1.80 in Jan 2009 to now near $4.00!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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What do you expect when an ecnomy goes from a crash to a recovery? Why was gas so low when President Obama was elected? Did the price have anything to do with the Republicans driving the economy off the edge of the cliff? I see how you fail to mention the $4.00 gas under Bush though.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Gas was on its way down when Obama took control.
Just remember his pledge to accept being a one termer if he didnt fix the economy in the first 3 years.
He hasnt even got it back to where it was when he took over.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You so quickly forget that the entire global economy was going down at the same time. Here is a question for the Right here. How much better are your IRAs and other investments doing since Obama took office as compared to before he took office? Up that much huh?
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my investments are up a whopping 2% for the period Obama has been in office.
Prior to that a down year was 5%.
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Lets also not forget the the price of gas between May 2007 thru October 2008 the price of gas ranged from 3.30 to 4.00 a gallon. Don’t you hate it when there are charts on the internet that keep track of these things.
http://www.northdakotagasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
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It’s 2012 and Obama is failing the American people. You can run against Bush all you want. The debt now exceeds $15,000,000,000,000, still high unemployment, high gas, food inflation, lower credit rating…and on and on.
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And of the rise between 5 trillion and 15 trillion 8 of it was from Bush policies and spending and 2 trillion was from Obama.
National Debt Increased by 75% under Bush:
2001 – $5.871 trillion
2008 – $10.640 trillion
National Debt Increased 35% Under Obama:
Jan 31st 2009 = $10.569-tr-illion
Jan 31st 2011 = $14.131-tr-illion
But of the $3.56-trillion increase, 98% was carry over from Bush programs:
Bush: $910-billi-on = Interest on Debt 2009/2011
Bush: $360-billi-on = Iraq War Spending 2009/2011
Bush: $319-billi-on = TARP/Bailo-ut Balance from 2008 (as of May 2010)
Bush: $419-billi-on = Bush Recession Caused Drop in taxes
Bush: $190-billi-on = Bush Medicare Drug Program 2009/2011
Bush: $211-billi-on = Bush Meicare Part-D 2009/2011
Bush: $771-billi-on = Bush Tax Cuts 2009/2011
Bush’s contribution:
2001 to 2008: $4.769-tri-llion
2009 to 2010: $3.181-tri-llion
Total: $7.950-trillion
Increase Since 2001 = $14.131 – $5.871 = $8.26-tril-lion
Bush’s contributi-on: $7.950-tri-llion / $8.26-tril-lion = 96%
Increase caused By Bush’s Programs: 96%
Increase caused by Obama’s Programs: 4%
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/07/the-chart-that-should-accompany-all-discussions-of-the-debt-ceiling/242484/
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/10/14/opinion/20081014_OPCHART.html/
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That is laughable! Well at least the left is admitting 4% of it is Obama’s fault and 96% is Bush’s fault. What percent is Obama responsible for over the last 12 months when the over spend was $1,300,000,000,000?That is over $15,000 for a family of four or a monthly bill of $1250.00. There’s not too many of us with that kind of extra monthly income.
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You make me laugh.
thanks for that.
Obama has spent a hair less in 3.5 years than Bush did in 8 years and you want us to believe its still bushs fault.
What about the pledge to fix the economy in 3 years or he would leave?
Can we at least hold him to one of his promises?
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I am not running against Bush.. I’m an independent. Unfortunately I’ve voted for both of the last two losers. What I can’t stand is when someone who is obviously a republican lemming point fingers at one President when it has obviously happened under previous administrations.
Do you care to answer why when we had a balanced budget under Clinton, and projections of a possible cash flow that it all of a sudden went into the toilet?
I completely understand that we are 15 Trillion into debt, and if you had seen one of my other posts admonishing a democrat you would know that I don’t care for our current President anymore than I cared for that C+, draft dodging President.
The ONLY thing that is going to fix the issues that we have is for BOTH parties to get together and actually do some honest to god WORK. Not sit and point fingers at each other.. But when I see a hypocrite I darn sure will point them out.
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Mav, I agree. Bush and repubs spent like fools and so are the dems and Obama. Clinton under Repub control went from hillary care to passing welfare reform and clearly moved right after the repub takeover in 1994. Obama is doubling down on increased spending and finger pointing.
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Clinton did bring us a nice balanced budget.
I blame his policies for the housing fiasco but in fairness to him, he was doing what he felt was right at the time. i will give him that benefit of doubt due to his other accomplishments.
Bush got hosed with a terrorist attack.
Call it as you will but a large number of Democrats voted to go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan based on the same info Bush had to work with.
Obama promised to put an end to all these things right away and fix the economy.
Instead he ignored the economy, spent like a teenager on spring break and has blamed everyone except himself for his failures.
I believe in giving credit where it is due and absolutely ZERO is due to Obama.
Its time for a change and unless the DNC is going to put forth a new ticket, Romney and Ryan are going to get 4 years to show that they are the ones that will get something accomplished.
If they dont….. The Dems will have another shot.
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SSSSSHHHHHH!!!! That was during the Bush years that the Republicans pretend never happened.
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I suggest that you do your homework before sticking your foot in your mouth. Flying J is not in bankruptcy. In fact they sold to Pilot two years ago.
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You’re both right…FJ was in bancruptcy when Pilot bought it. FJ had some pretty crappy management under the original owners from Utah…..Now they still call them Flying J, but once you go inside they are the exact same as Pilot…
I’ve been trucking since 92 and when I first started Pilot was just a string of these dinky fuel stops with very little place to park a big truck….Twenty years later after buying up several chains I believe they’re the biggest truck stop chain in the country….
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Where am I mistaken:
Stations in Fargo get most of their gasoline from the same pipeline that the stations in Grand Forks get most of their gasoline
Stations in Fargo perpetually sell gasoline cheaper than stations in Grand Forks
Stations in Fargo don’t tend go bankrupt; they’re clearly making enough money to stay in business. The profit margins are high enough to attract additional stations.
*The only reason gas prices are higher in Grand Forks than in Fargo is due to collusion, greed, and lack of ethics on the part of the Grand Forks gas station owners; and the fact that no-one in the State has the stones to do a proper investigation.*
Anyone besides me remember “9-11″; and how some Grand Forks gas stations were FORCED by the State of ND to issue REFUNDS for PRICE GOUGING? I haven’t set foot on B & N property since then. I know there were other station owners who used the Twin Towers as a profit enhancement tool; but I don’t remember who.
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Again, fighting over 10 cent is a waste of time. Obama and liberals want high gas prices so the alternatives can compete. The average buyer of a Volt makes $174,000 per year and is given a $7500 credit. The car is already sold at a loss. Obama wants to up that credit to $10,000 for the Volt. Is this President helping the working poor here? Cash for Clunkers has driven up used cars by 30%.
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Tests show the Volt manages about 25 miles per charge. Also, it’s estimated replacement batteries will go for $8,000.
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“a good friend of mine manages three gas stations ”
I guess that explains you support of the cartel.
“They do not comunicate with each other at all.”
I guess, then, that’s it’s pure coincidence that the price of gas at every station is the same.
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Theexplan why other towns do the same thing. Could it have anything to do with the fact that their price is on a big sign for everyone to see? Support the “cartel” that only happens to be real in the tinfoiled hat world? How can a group of people who do not even know each other set the price together? Let’s see Holiday (based in Bloomingto,MN), Sta-Mart (West Fargo), Orton’s (Walker,MN), Flying J (Knoxville,Tn), SuperPumper (not in Grand Forks), LOC (Fosston,MN) Cenex (owned by different groups)Loaf & Jug (Cincinnati, Oh) so that leaves Valley Dairy and Simonsons and if you think they get togther to set the price the stock price of ALCOA goes up due to increased sales of tinfoil.
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Ah, we’ve made a good first step. You do admit now that the price for gas in GF is the same at every station. (Pretty hard to deny.) Now, why do suppose an enterprising owner wouldn’t realize that undercutting competition by 5-7 cents wouldn’t make up the reduction in volume?
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“A: GF and Fargo do not, repeat do not, get their gas from the same terminal. You get gas from Minneapolis, Alexandria, Minot, or who has gas.”
There is a skill called “Reading Comprehension”. What I said is:
“Stations in Fargo get most of their gasoline from the same pipeline that the stations in Grand Forks get most of their gasoline”
Take a look on Highway 2/Gateway Drive: See those bigass white tanks on the north side of the road? That’s where most of the GF gas stations get their gasoline. The pipeline that supplies those tanks is–so far as I know–the same pipeline that supplies the Fargo area. Don’t tell me that the refinery on the Gulf Coast issues a special discount to the Fargo-area tank farm that isn’t available to the Grand Forks-area tank farm. There is NO VALID REASON for the price of fuel to be lower in Fargo than in GF.
“B: The stations in Fargo are parts of chains that make up the money elsewhere.”
As if the stations in GF don’t sell Coke and cigarettes and crappy Chinese merchandise.
“Again back to Gene and claiming the surrounding counties are cheaper if you refer to my recent update provided you would see that Gene’s argument does not hold water because they are higher.”
I don’t buy gas at every gas station in ND. I will tell you this: I bought $80 worth of gasoline at the Cenex in Comstock MN on Monday, and the price was about a nickle less per gallon than in Grand Forks. Small town, low-volume… and still cheaper than the big names in GF. You can loudly announce that we aren’t being cheated, but NO ONE BELIEVES YOU.
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Who are these owners you speak of? Only a couple of the owners even live in GF.
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I have one for you then Shurkey….I was at one of their pumps and was about to put gas in when the manager came out and changed the price (Older style pump back then) just before I started…I couldn’t believe what he was doing……I put the hose back and never returned
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I had the same thing happen top me last year but luckily for me she waited at the pump staring me down until i left, then changed it.
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Chins Nixson said: On August 13, 2012 at 12:59 PM
“That is laughable! Well at least the left is admitting 4% of it is Obama’s fault and 96% is Bush’s fault. What percent is Obama responsible for over the last 12 months when the over spend was $1,300,000,000,000?That is over $15,000 for a family of four or a monthly bill of $1250.00. There’s not too many of us with that kind of extra monthly income”.
Of course it is laughable to you once the facts instead of FauxNews is put in front of you. How much of the figure you state is still a result of Bush’s decisions? Typical RWN when facts are presented ignore facts and parrot FauxNews. Shows why you know less than the person who does not even watch the news. Who was it that bailed out Wall Street again?
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Jack, I’m stating the overspend of $1,300,000,000,000 happened in the last 12 months. Is that true-tax revenues of about $2,300,000,000,000 and spending of about $3,600,000,000,000 and a debt of over $15,000,000,000,000. You can name call and point fingers all you want but when the bill hits and the services are cut; it will be painful for everybody.
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You mean the 1.3 trillion that the Repulican house spent.
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Yes Jackson the $1,300,000,000,000 the house republicans spent helping the poor while Obama and the dems continue to try to stick it to the working poor.
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You really live in FauxNews land don’t you?
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Gene DuBois said: On August 13, 2012 at 1:55 PM
“Ah, we’ve made a good first step. You do admit now that the price for gas in GF is the same at every station. (Pretty hard to deny.) Now, why do suppose an enterprising owner wouldn’t realize that undercutting competition by 5-7 cents wouldn’t make up the reduction in volume”?
Where did I once say that they all do not charge the same price? Oh wait that would be nowhere. Good thing you do not run a business or a gas station because you would go broke real fast. So one station drops his price and either everyone else goes along with it within the hour or not. Sorry but your theory does not work in reality. Even if he sold for 5-7 cents less he never would make up the difference with volume. Why else has no one tried it? Gas never goes up at the pump as fast as it does at the rack. But it also never goes down as fast either. As I said before this is to balance out the books. If a gas station on South Washington makes 40K in profit at the end of the year after all the bills are paid they had a good year.
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I am still waiting for one of you experts out there to tell us what the margin is on a gallon of gas.
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For the station owner little to none.. For the oil companies.. Well the don’t call it record breaking profits for nothing.
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A company paying three times as much in taxes to the government as it takes in profits is taxed enough already. Our problem in America isn’t that the wealthy, and the big corporations, aren’t taxed enough. It’s that our government spends too much.
Tags: exxonmobil, Taxes
« Jack Dalrymple’s Plan For Property Taxes: More Of The Same
Exxon made $41 billion in net income in 2011. They paid $104 billion in income, excise and other taxes. This came from SayAnythingblog and lists 10 years of profits and taxes taken from the Exxon financials. In last 10 years, Exxon made over $350,000,000,000 and they paid over $1,000,000,000,000 in taxes. Not a bad deal for the federal gov’t!
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I made a mess by copying and pasting. My point is on Exxon’s profits v. federal taxes.
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Agree that the taxes are high.. But I disagree with your statement that the wealthy and big corporations aren’t taxed enough. There are corporations who pay more than their fair share and then there are corporations who pay nothing. Zilch, nada or darn close.
The government needs to shed themselves of their special children and close the loopholes so that all pay their fair share. Period. No more being able to hide money in the Camens etc.
They need to stop this type of abuse just like they need to stop paying a grand for a toilet seat, and stopping the medicare fraud. But when it comes to government, I don’t care if there is a D or an R behind their name, they don’t care because its NOT their money. They don’t have to live by our rules. They don’t have to pay our health care costs. They are all disconnected from what real Americans have to do to live.
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Maverick,
Again I agree with you. Close the loopholes and get companies like GE to pay their fair share. Sad that the gov’t is the biggest winner with high oil prices and record profits. Then picks the winners and losers with programs and tax policies. What are your thoughts on schams like the Volt when it is sold at a loss, then the buyer at an average income of $174,000 is given a $7500 credit? Our family has been looking for a use car for over a year-they are very high because cash for clunkers destroyed decent use cars.
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Jackston,
The gov’t margin is 40 cents per gallon on already taxed money.
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Come on….It’s damn silly to make this issue a big Left verses Right issue because it’s not really made up that way….but anything to get in the digs right? This is just not that battle zone…..It makes about as much sense as blaming the signs of the Zodiac for the problems…..It just isn’t so…
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Dag gumb Capricorns!
Its all them peoples fault.
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Jack, I don’t know the operating costs of every gas station, so I can’t give you their individual profit margins. I can however tell you the oil companies made an average of 7 cents per gallon of fuel sold in 2011. Oil companies had production cost that averaged 78% of the cost of each gallon of fuel. On that same gallon of gas the average state, federal and local taxes were 50 cents per gallon. By process of elimination, that doesn’t leave much for the retailer. Seems to me that the easiest way to reduce the price of gas is to eliminate some of the tax burden being imposed at the retail end of the process.
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Then where would road funds come from?
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ITS THE CANDY BARS.
Gas stations take a hit on the gas so you will buy the overpriced candy bars.
Thats where the REAL money is in owning a gas station.
That and SODAS!
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Capt Amerika said: On August 14, 2012 at 5:43 PM
Whats wrong Jack?
Did i strike a nerve?
Its been a long time since people actually resorted to name calling when not liking one of my posts.
Im guessing you are likely spitting all over your monitor and keyboard as you smash out those upset words.
Need a towel?
You know Capt. Amerika you should have no problem with the price of gas since it what you want. The free market at work. Besides your posts are usually so idiotic and all you spout is the FauxNews talking points lacking facts.
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Jack Welch said about 10 ten times on this subject “if you don’t agree with him you must watch Faux News”. Jack buddy, that is old and tired.
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tundrabeast said: On August 13, 2012 at 11:48 PM
As I said previously…It’s the law that the prices stay within a certain range of each other locally because before the big oil companies would drive little stations out of business…….That said…It still seems as though there’s a concerted effort to keep the prices higher than Fargo without any real clear reason for it to be that much higher this close.
It is not that everyone else is higher. It is that Fargo is an anomoly and is lower than everyone else. GF is lower than Bismarck, Minot, Dickinson, and everywhere else in the state. Fargo’s battle started between Flying J and Mills Fleet Farm. Neither one could care if they make a dime off gas. Flying J pumps diesel and Mills uses it as their loss leader. Neither do this anywhere else though. Then you throw Loves into the mix and really gums up the works. Do you really think that everyone else in Fargo would not raise their prices if it was not for these three?
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“Fargo’s battle started between Flying J and Mills Fleet Farm. Neither one could care if they make a dime off gas. Flying J pumps diesel and Mills uses it as their loss leader. Neither do this anywhere else though. Then you throw Loves into the mix and really gums up the works.”
How do you explain Fargo’s gasoline prices being substantially lower than Grand Forks for the last few DECADES.
BEFORE Love’s.
BEFORE Fleet Farm
Fargo has enjoyed ACTUAL COMPETITION for–hell, I can’t remember how long–twenty, thirty years. Maybe more. And that whole time, GF has been getting GOUGED by “the usual suspects”.
And you try to pass this off as something that’s happened since Love’s and Fleet Farm came to Fargo. It would be hilarious, if it wasn’t so sad.
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Capt Amerika said: On August 14, 2012 at 5:46 PM
Sorry Jack,
I find that when you get 100 people together and 99 of them see that the sky is blue, the one ranting that its mauve is usually the one who is wrong.
Or wearing colored glasses…..
Because I am the only one that is dealing with facts inlieu of conjecture. As for your funds only going up 2 % you need a better financial advisor considering how much the market has grown under Obama 30+%. That means you missed out on at least 28% growth.
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Since gas has doubled in price under Obama, maybe Capt had to pull funds from his 401k to pay for his gas.
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I know the real reason for the difference in gas prices . Not enough refineries to process all the oil that’s being produced. And lets not forget about the day traders in the commodity markets. And transportation costs.
http//www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/futures/
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