McLAUGHLIN: ‘Pro-life’ should mean anti-capital punishment
July 31, 2012 at 2:08 am in The Daily Republic
Donald Moeller’s execution date has been set, but I do not see any of the pro-lifers taking notice and opposing this execution. Continue Reading
I was going to ask about war but I see the quote in the last paragraph.
I still have to ask because the god of the Jews seemed to have their back (according to their bible).
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No, execution is not murder.
Some folks can’t tell the moral differences between crime and punishment, guilty crminal and innocent victim.
Those who equate execution and murder, also equate incraceration and kidnapping, fines and theft, only because they equate crimes and sanctions for those crimes.
Most folks undertand the moral differences.
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Sister Helen Prejean:
“It is abundantly clear that the Bible depicts murder as a capital crime for which death is considered the appropriate punishment, and one is hard pressed to find a biblical proof text in either the Hebrew Testament or the New Testament which unequivocally refutes this. Even Jesus’ admonition “Let him without sin cast the first stone”, when He was asked the appropriate punishment for an adulteress (John 8:7) – the Mosaic Law prescribed death – should be read in its proper context. This passage is an entrapment story, which sought to show Jesus’ wisdom in besting His adversaries. It is not an ethical pronouncement about capital punishment . ”
Dead Man Walking.
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You say, “pro-life’ should mean anti-capital punishment”, but it doesn’t and that’s the bottom line. Nice try though.
If however I was looking for someone to define a moral issue for me I would not seek a new age guru with no moral grounding other than the writings of other new age gurus and twisted and contorted bible scriptures. But thanks for your opinion just the same.
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Red Handy, Thank you so much. I have never been granted the privilege of being a called a guru before. I will say; however, that your not equating pro-life with an anti-capital punishment ideology quite illogical.
Thanks again.
peace
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Dudley, please take time to work through the dvd study from “living the questions” on capital punishment led by sister prejean. You might find it enlightening.
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Kristi:
I have read a great deal of Sr. Prejean’s anti death penalty work and have found it to be very misleading.
I recommend that you read the following, which I hope will be informative.
” . . .makes you realize the Dead Man Walking truly belongs on the shelf in the library in the Fiction category.” “Being devout Catholics, ‘the norm’ would be to look to the church for support and healing. Again, this need for spiritual stability was stolen by Sister Prejean.”
The parents of rape/torture/murder victim Loretta Bourque, DMW case
“I wouldn’t have had as much trouble with (Prejean’s) views if she would have told the truth . . .” ” . . . (Sr. Prejean) based her book on what was in I guess a defense file and what (rapist/murderer) Robert Willie telling her.” ” . . . she’s trying to mislead people in the book. And that’s something that she’s going have to work out with herself.” “(Sr. Prejean’s) certainly not after giving anybody spiritual advice to try to save their soul.”
Case Detective Michael Vernado, in the rape/torture/murder of Faith Hathaway, DMW case
From (with additional problems for the sister)
“Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review”
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean–the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx
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Don, its a shame that fundamental literalism has done such a disservice to the literature of the bible. We, in America, need to grow out of our biblical illiteracy and then maybe we will grow as a country and as a segment of humanity.
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I’m feeling like those who are responding so strongly to the idea that their belief system is one riddled with hypocrisy are doing so not because they disagree, but because they cannot adequately express why their own belief makes sense. “Bottom line” is this: you can be pro life or you can be pro death. I personally am pro death, and I’m fine with saying that because I have a thorough understanding of the issues and understand how my stances on these issues work within my own faith. To bounce between the two illustrates a lack of understanding of one’s own beliefs as well as the world in which we live and the difficult decisions that so many must face.
That being said, before you defend yourself with such vehemence, I would encourage you to do your research. Googling the topic and using misrepresented, out of context quotes is not only inappropriate, it is a disservice to those who read the comments and are being offered inaccurate information. Also, Red Handy, I would avoid referring to the Rabbis of one of the oldest religions, the religion which Christ himself practiced, “New Age Gurus” as it is not only highly offensive, it also negates your comment in it’s entirety by showcasing how little you actually know about the topic at hand and the article which was written.
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Vanessa to be clear, my reference to twisted and contorted scriptures by new age gurus” was in fact a reference to the twisting and contorting done by present day “new age” practitioners in order to justify their doctrine and agenda. It was not, repeat, NOT a reference to God’s Word or the Holy Bible as written by men under the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit.
My objection is to those who would change the meaning to suit their purpose.
It’s important to me that this misunderstanding be cleared up. I apologize for not being as articulate as I should have. I don’t cut and paste from a google search either, hence the occasional error. Thanks.
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@Vanessa – I’M the one highly offended, by any claim that Ms. McLaughlin is a Christian. She wants to change what it means to be a Christian just as she wants to change what the Bible actually says, just as she wants to change what anti-abortion (pro-life) means, just as she wants to change all of God’s standards for moral behavior.
It’s New Age, it’s “anti-Christ” and it is highly offensive to many if not the majority of bible believing Christians. This woman is not dumb however, she knows her views are going to offend many. I don’t think my responses here come as any great surprise to her. She came and planted herself right smack in the midst of one of the most conservative, church going, traditional bible believing parts of our country and then began writing the most offensive blogs she could against those time honored, well-settled and established values. Values grounded in God’s Word. That’s her right of course but lets not be surprised when someone is insulted at her complete lack of respect for others and their beliefs.
and then you say I’m being offensive? Please.
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Comedian Emo Philips tells of walking across a bridge and seeing a man standing on the edge, ready to jump off. He ran over and said, “Stop! Don’t do it!”
“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.
“Well, there’s so much to live for.”
“Like what?”
“Well, are you religious?”
He said, “Yes.”
I said, “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?”
“Christian.”
“Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
“Protestant.”
“Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”
“Baptist.”
“Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”
“Baptist Church of God!”
“Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God or Reformed Baptist Church of God?”
“Reformed Baptist Church of God!”
“Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?”
His new friend replied, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915.”
To which Philips replied, “Die, heretic!,” and he pushed him off.
This is my take of Red Handy’s christion opinion
Kristi
You know I’m on your side but I had to poke at you with the 1st reply
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Opps
Sorry about the spelling error
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huh? wow. you got me there Don. I give up. you win.
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The more I think about this thread the funnier it is!!
I’ll bet Jesus was the “new age” guru of his time!!!
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Don, i would love to have you read a book by Robin Meyers called “The Underground Church.” You might find it refreshing in a radical dangerous sort of way….peace
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What a shock that you didn’t get the joke or the point of it. You cannot take anything that does not fit into mold you think the world should be. If anything goes against your “values” you condem it by saying you are offended.
You say Ms. Mclaughlin is “anti-christ” in her teachings. You can’t be serious. I’m not a believer but it is clear to me that her teachings are VERY christ like.
She makes the argument that to kill under any conditions is wrong and you argue against it…..on moral grounds? I think Jesus (if he had existed) would have said the same thing.
She doesn’t write anything “offensive”. I would know. What she does is write are thought provoking commentaries. Unfortunatly because of your “time honored, well-settled and established values” (like thinking the world is flat) in and area of our country where everyone looks and thinks alike it DOES provoke people and I say good for her.
Do you honestly think your values (deep down)are different from other parts of the country? If so, why. Let me tell you why. If you go to either coast you will find the “melting pot” this country was built by. When you have so many different cultures trying to live together there has to be give and take. You sit here in your white bread world and pass judgement on and call people offensive and lacking respect because they don’t think the way you do. I suggest you go back and read the article again and think about what she wrote. Also think of her in this context:
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. (5:5) Blessed arethey who hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they will be satisfied. (5:6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they will be shown mercy. (5:7)Blesssedthe pure in heart: for they shall see God. (5:8)
the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God. (5:9)
Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)
What she writes of could be a beautiful world but because of those that think like you, it will never happen.
Who is the fool?
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Very good, Don Corleone. I’m giving you a standing ovation through my computer right now.
Just imagine what the world would be like right now if humanity never let go of “time honored, well-settled and established values” we have seen in the past, like public witch burnings or being so kind as to feed and house your family of slaves.
One thing is for certain, sticking your head in the sand and clinging to whatever religious belief that is the norm at the time has never produced anything except oppression, intolerance, hate and bloodshed. Every bit of progress humankind has experienced has come from those people, religious and non-believers alike, who were able to question what was the norm at any given moment in history in the name of creating a better existence for all.
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Don – I got your joke, it just had nothing to do with the discussion. Denominational differences in doctrine which divide churches was not the topic. Basic fundamentals of Christianity was the topic. Like the divinity of Jesus for example. Or his resurection from the grave. Or the miricles he performed. Also I spoke of values (look up the word) near and dear to many in the Christian community. Whether one believes the earth is flat or round is NOT a VALUE. That would come under the heading of KNOWLEDGE. It is difficult to continue a discussion with someone who lacks a basic, even rudimentary understanding of the definition of concepts like values. I don’t have the time or inclination to teach you 7th grade english.
To be gracious I’ll assume your still very young, possibly still in high school. My advice to you is 1.) stay in school, 2.) study real hard, 3.) read a few more books, 4.) eat a good breakfast every morning and 5.)stop trolling the internet to participate in discussions which are clearly way over your head. It just makes you look silly.
Freethink- your just plain anti-anything religious. I’m not going to persuade you of anything. I get that. No point in any debate with you either and thats OK. I can respect that. I wish you both the best.
Peace.
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Your tone, sir, suggests “I” am the one in need of “persuading”. But don’t worry, I won’t give up on you. See you on the comment pages.
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Mr Red Handy,
Normally I don’t respond to this kind of stuff but i need to share something. I grew up on the Mexican border and lived a violent life that started when I was very young. I have been stabbed and shot and have experienced other tragedies, it was a way of life. I didn’t have “good christian parents” and a safe big house to live in, what I did have was a drug addicted mom that could care less about her children. Anyway Mr. Handy, I have been searching for many years to find a God that I can believe in, I have attended many churches and visited with their pastors to understand their faith. What I have found is a bible that is supposed to be God’s word but it is full of contradictions (and no, I dont believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale). I have found people like yourself that is judgemental, insulting, and superior. To me it is arrogant to think that you have the only way to heaven. Just so you don’t think that I am some child spouting off, I have five children, four are succesful adults, and a wonderful wife of many years. I am also educated and in a successful career myself. Mr. Handy I am not able to believe in a God that is angry and punishing to the extent of sending his creation to Hell, I would rather worship a god of love. Mrs. McLaughlins writings speak of love and acceptance for everyone, no violence including mandated executions, and that all of God’s creation will go to heaven. She is called the “Anti-Christ for this. Because her beliefs and faith are different than yours she is insulted and called names by “good christian folks”. Mrs. McLaughlin’s faith gives people like me hope that I can find what I have been searching for. So tell me Mr. Handy, in your opinion, should I not be able to find a God that I am able to believe in? That is how I am understanding your responses.
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I forgot to mention, I am Mrs. McLaughlin’s husband.
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Tom:
Very odd.
Based upon your comments, you appear to have no respect to anyones relgious beliefs, inclusive of your own.
Does Kristi have similar beliefs to yours?
You wrote:
“I respect your beliefs as I do all religions and beliefs.”
The you say:
“I don’t neccesarily believe that it is the gospel truth just because the bible itself says it is. So when someone quotes scripture it really means nothing to me.”
You are saying that any and all scripture “means nothing to you.”
How do you respect the beliefs of other Christians, when the Word of God, means nothing to you? Why respect “nothing”?
Quoting scripture means quoting the Word of God, doesn’t it?
Nothing?
What is the foundation of your Christian faith, if not anchored within the Bible, which apparently, means “nothing” to you, as you stated?
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Mr Sharp,
I find it incredibly interesting that you real Christians think I am disrespecting you by not believing that the bible is literal truth. You and Mr. Handy have stated that you believe it is the word of god. Funny, I don’t feel disrespected by you stating your beliefs, nor am I offended by them. What do I base my faith on? Well, Sir, I don’t. When you grow up on the streets as a child faith and trust are not something you learn or practice daily. I am still searching and I don’t know If I will ever find it. And no, my wife and I do not always share the same beliefs, we are two individuals that think independently. You should try that sometime, it is liberating. I did not reread my earlier post but if I recall correctly I never stated that I, Myself, was A Christian. If I did, I apologize. What I did state was what I would rather believe in than an oppressive God. One more thing Mr. Sharp, I don’t recall trying to convince Mr. Handy to adopt my beliefs, nor will I adopt yours. I don’t have any desire to become offended when someone states a belief that is different than my own or insult them by acting superior and calling them names. I hope I have answered your questions Mr. Sharp
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Tom:
You said the word of God meant “nothing” to you.
That is the definition of being disrespectful.
I never said I believed in the word of God. You simply made that up. I mentioned no beliefs of my own.
I was dealing with what you said.
Whatever my beliefs, I would never say that the foundation of someone’s faith meant “nothing”.
I guess we just have different approaches when dealing with things that are very important to others.
No, you didn’t answer my questions.
I presumed you were a Christian. One shouldn’t presume, should be a lesson.
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Tom – Thanks. Some days I wish I could make God into my own image, that is to say, make him fit my mold. Sure would be easier that way. But I know enough about the Bible to know that’s not how it works. It’s the other way around. I feel compelled to defend Jesus and His word much the same as you must feel compelled to defend your wife and her honor. I’ll admit it gets a little heated sometimes cause these are some “hot-button” issues, but Tom, truly, I think your wife can handle it.
Abortion is morally wrong. That’s what I believe. Shedding innocent blood at a clinic is not the same as a death penalty in our legal system. That’s what I believe. It’s also deplorable to God. By the way I’m not big on death penalty either because I don’t trust the court system and there have been too many mistakes made but I can make a distinction between the two acts of taking a life.
I don’t hate anyone. Not gays, not Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, but I do believe that Jesus said he is the only way to God the Father.
“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 He also said we must believe in Him. to be saved. That has to mean more than merely believing. After all, the devil believes in Him right. It means to believe that he is Lord. See now there is a predicament for Muslims or any others who just believe he was a man, a good teacher. That’s not going to be enough “belief” He goes on to say that one day “every knee will bow, every tongue confess that He is Lord.” That’s powerful.
He said it, not me. I only believe it.
He also said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you workers of evildoers!” Matt. 7:21-23
If you look at these folks defense, it seems they were church folks or had some degree of religion. Not sure who they are but I don’t want to be one of them.
So it seems all roads don’t lead to heaven and it seems we all won’t get there. I wish that were not true but finding a pastor that will tell me it’s not true will not change the fact that it is true.
There is a deception in the world today and it comes as a light with some truth attached, just enough truth to make it seem right. It is powerful and is very alluring.
The deception is similar if not identical to the very first lie ever recorded when the serpent told the woman “did God say that?, don’t worry it’s OK, go ahead and eat.” My own paraphrase but you get the idea.
That Tom, is the “spirit of anti-christ.” Contrary to popular belief the devil does not have horns and a pitch fork and look all scary. He appears quite beautiful, attractive, alluring and at times almost irresistible.
I won’t stop defending what I believe any more than your wife will stop preaching what she believes. I think that’s fair. Thanks again.
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Mr Handy,
I respect your beliefs as I do all religions and beliefs. There are many biblical scholars that perceive the bible differently and teach on those perceptions. I personally believe the bible was written by man for the time that it was written in. I don’t neccesarily believe that it is the gospel truth just because the bible itself says it is. So when someone quotes scripture it really means nothing to me. With that being said, I think I failed to make my point. My wife has been judged and insulted (thou shalt not judge, isn’t that in the bible) for her beliefs by “good christian folks”. I do not see her judging or insulting anyone, what I see is her willingness to walk beside anyone regardless of their beliefs or sexual preference. She will love them and reinforce that God loves them even if they believe in Sun Gods or Tree Gods. I have actually read some parts of the bible and I find that it depicts God as a brutal and punishing God. There will always be people that can’t believe in your god so if I have to mold him to fit what I need it will be better than not believing in a God at all.
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Mr. Sharp,
First I will admit that I also presumed that you stated your beliefs. After reading this many posts they all run together, so I didn’t intentionally make it up, I have learned a lesson as well. I believe what I said is “it means nothing to me”. I do not believe that the bible is the word of god. If you were offended by this than it is your own insecurities. I was just stating MY BELIEF. I agree with Don’s earlier statement that you guys have difficulty with tolerating any belief that doesn’t fit your own. That is why you are trying to label it as being disrespectful. Why don’t we just agree to disagree and get on with our lives
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Tom:
Thank you for the exchange.
You have misunderstood what I have been trying to communicate. That often happens with text and with the very limited understanding we can have of one another in these brief contacts.
I wasn’t offended by your comments. I simply stated that your comments appeared clearly disrespectful of the important beliefs of other by you calling them “nothing”.
Religious beliefs of whatever kind are very important to many people, to a degree that it is part of who they are. Therefore, calling such beliefs nothing is a direct comment upon those people.
I respect the important beliefs of others because I understand that respect of others includes a respect for what they believe in, as one cannot separate the two. That was the foundation for my calling your “nothing” comment disrespectful.
To understand one another requires our respect for the beliefs of others. Respect for the beliefs of others is the opposite of finding the beliefs of others as meaning “nothing”.
That was the foundation of my comments, which is the opposite “of having difficulty with tolerating any belief that don’t fit my own”.
You calling that my insecurity goes to how far you misunderstood my comments.
I find it very important that we make an effort to understand the beliefs of others and that in respecting the beliefs of others that we have a greater ability to communicate with others. Greater understanding and respect for the beliefs of others is an important effort which makes the world a better place.
You stating that the important beliefs of others mean “nothing” to you may have the opposite effect.
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If “all god’s creation will go to heaven” regardless of whether or not one is prone to butchery and general defilement of humanity, what is unacceptable behavior? If what Mr. and Mrs.Mclaughlin profess is true, why would one suppress any sort of anti-human behavior if it is, as you assert, morally neutral? There clearly is no significant societal deterrent to anti-social behavior in the criminal mind, so to say society demands conformity would not be a valid argument. A major function of government is to protect the citizens of the country. Sending a heinous criminal to prison for life is no guarantee they won’t be released at some time to further prey on law abiding citizens. It has happened many times. Why should we be subjected to these people released into society? It makes no sense to advocate for the criminal while we clearly forget the past and future victims.
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You say there is no guarantee that they will not be released and that it has happened. True on both counts but I can guarantee that there have been those that have been innocent and put to death for crimes they did not commit and they are still dead. How do you justify that? Will you say they were found guilty by a jury of their peers and that justifies the outcome.
We don’t have a perfect system but the outcome is permanent.
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We don’t have a perfect system but it is greatly improved with the advent of dna testing. I don’t think anyone should be executed without supporting dna evidence or being caught in the act.
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Tom:
Your comments are ideal for this discussion.
You write:
“Mrs. McLaughlin’s faith gives people like me hope that I can find what I have been searching for. So tell me Mr. Handy, in your opinion, should I not be able to find a God that I am able to believe in? That is how I am understanding your responses.”
Biblically and theologically, from a Christian perspective, we know that there is only one God and it is THE God.
The difficulty with this, is that all have a different perspective on life and, therefore, in faith. The God that you”are able to beleieve in” is the same God that everyone else believes in, whether we agree to that are not, theologiclly, it is true.
The disagreements in faith can become very emotional because of what is at stake – eternal salvation.
If sincere, knowledgeable folks believes false teachings are being put forward, they have an obligation to correct them out of Christian concern for those who desire to be saved and for a God who desires all be saved.
The Christian delimma is the best method in which to enforce what teachings are truly Christian and how to use them in the best manner to enforce correction, to the end of bringing more to salavation, as Christians have a moral, faithful obligation to do.
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Today a temple of the sikh’s was attacked. Several people have once again lost their lives. As long as people continue to perpetuate an “us and them” or a “christ or no-christ” attitude, this type of killing will continue. Red Handy, do you see yourself as part of the problem or part of the solution? Mrs. McLaughlin, You can be my guru any day.
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Im thankful that so many are thinking through what has been written. Im thankful for a husband who stands mostly silently by watching.
I will say this as one final thought: I truly believe it is time we learn to put our weapons down whether they be weapons of “justified retribution” or weapons of religious ideology because we are killing one another in the name of our arrogance, knowledge and our gods and in the end, this cannot be good for us or for our children.
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Kristi:
To do away with “justified retribution” is to do away with Justice, an idea which neither a just god or a just people would, by defintion, agree to.
They cannot.
Quaker biblical scholar Dr. Gervas A. Carey:
” . . . the decree of Genesis 9:5-6 is equally enduring and cannot be separated from the other pledges and instructions of its immediate context, Genesis 8:20-9:17; . . . that is true unless specific Biblical authority can be cited for the deletion, of which there appears to be none. It seems strange that any opponents of capital punishment who professes to recognize the authority of the Bible either overlook or disregard the divine decree in this covenant with Noah; . . . capital punishment should be recognized . . . as the divinely instituted penalty for murder; The basis of this decree . . . is as enduring as God; . . . murder not only deprives a man of a portion of his earthly life . . . it is a further sin against him as a creature made in the image of God and against God Himself whose image the murderer does not respect.” (p. 111-113)
“. . . a secondary measure of the love of God may be said to appear. For capital punishment provides the murderer with incentive to repentance which the ordinary man does not have, that is a definite date on which he is to meet his God. It is as if God thus providentially granted him a special inducement to repentance out of consideration of the enormity of his crime . . . the law grants to the condemned an opportunity which he did not grant to his victim, the opportunity to prepare to meet his God. Even divine justice here may be said to be tempered with mercy.” (p. 116).
“A Bible Study”, within Essays on the Death Penalty, T. Robert Ingram, ed., St. Thomas Press, Houston, 1963, 1992. Carey was a Professor of Bible and Past President of George Fox College.
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What crime has any aborted baby committed other than being inconvenient? A parallel between innocent human life and criminals doesn’t exist other than to the totally heartless.I don’t see any abortion advocates volunteering for retroactive abortions.
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Well, now that I have had a big breakfast lets talk.
Mr. Handy
Like you I am also a white, middle aged male with a family but unlike you I have met the criteria of the American Mensa Society so please, be careful with your condescending attitude to others. My attempt at levity was understood by everyone on this thread….but you ,so I take this as a teaching moment to show that your points follow a logic that only you understand.
Ms Mclaughlin is a pastor of the UCC so correct me if I’m wrong but is that not a christian church or because you have dismissed her as not being a christian that makes it so? What do you base that on? You make proclamations such as “You say, “pro-life’ should mean anti-capital punishment”, but it doesn’t and that’s the bottom line.” Based on what? Why is that the bottom line? THAT is the point of the discussion, which is a denominational difference in doctrine…..therefore the joke stands (everyone else understood that but you).
Where did Ms. Mclaughlin go against christian fundamentals? She said nothing in her article(which the discussion is about) questioning the divinity of jesus and never mentioned his resurection so what are you talking about?
Now here is another point that clearly went over your head. The “world is flat” is an abstract reference (which, by the way, I’m sure freethinker and Mr. Mclaughlin understood) to the fact that christianity has long taken “well settled and established values” and used them to persecute others. I will cite Giordano Bruno, Galileo Galilei and Charles Darwin as examples of people that have put forth what is now knowledge but in their time(s) were against church values.
I do not have the patience to be gracious with you because every Saturday I see letters to the editor vilifying Ms. Mclaughlin or anyone that goes against your narrow vision. You say you don’t hate gays or people of other faiths, yet you dismiss someone of your own (Ms. Mclaughlin) without a second thought. You may not hate them but you find it very hard to tolerate them…….if that was not true, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
In conclusion I will say (and have said before)that while I believe Ms Mclaughlin is simply trying to raise awareness and says nothing detrimental to people but actually more than anyone seems to embrace a “love your neighbor” attitude ,you condemn and dismiss and that makes you either irrelevant….or dangerous.
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All pastors and members of the congregations of Christian churches are not necessarily Christian. Mr. and Mrs. Mclaughlin have both inferred the Bible isn’t much more than a story book. I don’t think it is realistic to demand that red handy accept that point of view. I certainly don’t.
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Brain:
I have only been involved in this immediate discussion and am, therefore, unfamiliar with Kristi’s biblical and theological teachings.
I am not challenging your honesty.
I think it understandable that I find it a bit difficult to believe that a Christian Pastor would have a belief system that includes viewing the Bible as a “story booK”, indicating a work of fiction, hardly a foundation for anyone to choose a life of Christian worship.
No one who finds the bible a “story book” could base their lifes devotion to that work of fiction, unless they are a truly bizarre type of personality, which does not appear to be what you are implying.
If you see what I mean.
I think we all know that, when it comes to the religious, we know personalities, be it pastors or congregation, that appear to teach a product of their own ego, as opposed to the product of the godhead.
Is that what you are saying?
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I’m not making any judgement as to Mrs. Mclaughlin fitness as a pastor . That is between her and God. I based my conjecture on, Tom Mclaughlin “I personally believe The Bible was written by man for the time it was written”, Kristi Mclaughlin,” It’s a shame fundamental literalism has done such a disservice to the literature of The Bible”. Capitalization to the book title “The Bible”, what I believe to be the word of God, I inserted in the quotes.
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Brain:
I touched on that same topic. later, with some inquiry that I hope Tom responds to, with:
Tom:
Very odd.
Based upon your comments, you appear to have no respect to anyones religious beliefs, inclusive of your own.
Does Kristi have similar beliefs to yours?
You wrote:
“I respect your beliefs as I do all religions and beliefs.”
Then you say:
“I don’t neccesarily believe that it is the gospel truth just because the bible itself says it is. So when someone quotes scripture it really means nothing to me.”
You are saying that any and all scripture “means nothing to you.”
How do you respect the beliefs of other Christians, when the Word of God, means nothing to you? Why respect “nothing”?
Quoting scripture means quoting the Word of God, doesn’t it?
Nothing?
What is the foundation of your Christian faith, if not anchored within the Bible, which apparently, means “nothing” to you, as you stated?
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If not christian, what are they?
I have gone to one of her services and it certainly seemed christian to me.
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I hope they’re Christian but I question whether The Bible supports their point of view. Jesus condemned the unrepentent Pharisee’s as a “brood of vipers” but forgave all repentent sinners.
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Kristi brings up the pending execution of Donald Moeller.
It is most important to understand that he was convicted by two separate Lincoln County juries of raping and killing 9 year old Becky O’Connell of Sioux Falls in 1990.
A most impotant fact that Kristi should have included, but she did not.
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If one would have the point of view that there are no moral absolutes it could make sense.
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This is what she wrote:
“Donald Moeller took a life — a young beautiful life. What he did is tragic, violent and awful. I cannot imagine what breaks so terribly within a human that one would be able to do such terrible things. Donald Moeller broke the Hebrew instruction, “Thou shalt not murder,” but his is a life as well and for those of us who claim to be Christians (let alone pro-life) to stand silently by as he is executed does nothing for our case as Christians. It does nothing for our case that we believe in a God of forgiveness, mercy, grace and love. It does nothing for our case that we follow the way of Jesus who welcomed and sat with thieves, prostitutes, and sinners — a Jesus who opposed violence.”
In my opinion, she did mention it. The point she is making is Mr. Moeller does not deserve to be murdered also.
The 2 of you argue that state mandated murder is justifiable and she disagrees by saying Jesus would not have gone along with that. So the question put to you is WWJD, not a rationalization of why you can morally have capital punishment
So answer the question…What would Jesus have done to a murderer and back it up with your reasons and please no Old Testament quotes. New Testament only.
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We know that Jesus could have negated the death sentences of the two crucified with Him had he chosen to , but he didn’t.
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Don:
Thank you for your mild correction.
To be specific, I thught it important to mention the name, age and offences against the child, which produced the death penalty in this case.
No where in the biblle is murder and the proer sanction for murder, execution, described as equals, as both you and Kristi, wrongly do.
There are distinct moral and biblical differnces between murder and execution.
The fact that you and Kristi cannot morally distinguish between murder and execution, crime and punishment, guilty murderer and innocent victim, offers little hope that you can, productively, have a moral discussion on this or any other sanction.
As you both equate murder and executions, that has the same moral foundation as equating kidnapping and incarceration, theft and fines – an amoral or immoral equalling of actions, with no consideration of the moral foundations for them.
as reviwed:
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/02/01/murder-and-execution–very-distinct-moral-differences–new-mexico.aspx
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Don:
As per your request:
Jesus and the death penalty
Dudley Sharp
God/Jesus: ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.’ Matthew 15:4
This is a New Testament command, which references several of the same commands from God, in the same circumstance, from the OT.
Jesus: Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (Jesus) replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Luke 23: 39-43
It is not the nature of our deaths, but the state of salvation at the time of death which is most important.
Jesus: “So Pilate said to (Jesus), “Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?” Jesus answered (him), “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above.” John 19:10-11
The power to execute comes directly from God.
Jesus: “You have heard the ancients were told, ˜YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER” and “Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court”. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, “Raca”, shall be guilty before the supreme court and whoever shall say, “You fool”, shall be guilty enough to go into fiery hell.” Matthew 5:17-22.
Fiery hell is a considerable more severe sanction than any earthly death.
The Holy Spirit, God, through the power and justice of the Holy Spirit, executed both Ananias and his wife, Saphira. Their crime? Lying to the Holy Spirit – to God – through Peter. Acts 5:1-11.
No trial, no appeals, just death on the spot.
The next two are Old Testament, as Jesus emphazied the importance of the OT, which make it very important, as He stressed, repeatedly.
God: “You shall not accept indemnity in place of the life of a murderer who deserves the death penalty; he must be put to death.” Numbers 35:31 (NAB) full context http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/numbers/numbers35.htm
For murder, there is no mitigation from a death sentence.
God: Genesis 9:5-6, from the 1764 Quaker Bible, the only Quaker bible.
5 And I will certainly require the Blood of your Lives, and that from the Paw of any Beast: from the Hand likewise of Man, even of any one’s Brother, will I require the Life of a Man.
6 He that sheds Man’s Blood, shall have his own shed by Man; because in the Likeness of God he made Mankind.
Of all the versions/translations, this may be the most unequivocal – Murder requires execution of the murderer. It is a command. The Noahic covenant if for all persons and all times.
—
All of the following are in reference to the New Testament or are from New Testament scholars
“All interpretations, contrary to the biblical support of capital punishment, are false. Interpreters ought to listen to the Bible’s own agenda, rather than to squeeze from it implications for their own agenda. As the ancient rabbis taught, “Do not seek to be more righteous than your Creator.” (Ecclesiastes Rabbah 7.33.). Part of Synopsis of Professor Lloyd R. Bailey’s book Capital Punishment: What the Bible Says, Abingdon Press, 1987.
Saint (& Pope) Pius V, “The just use of (executions), far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder.” “The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent” (1566).
Pope Pius XII: “When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live.” 9/14/52.
“Moral/ethical Death Penalty Support: Christian and secular Scholars”
http://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-support-modern-catholic.html
Christianity and the death penalty
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html#F.Christianity
Catholic and other Christian References: Support for the Death Penalty,
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx
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A tip of the hat, well done…there are a LOT of OT references but…..
Couple of things:
Matthew 5:17-22-I have to admit I’m lost on how that justifies capital punishment, but it does mention you are in danger.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Acts 5:1-11-Wait, what?…….cheat on your tithe to Peter and you get struck down? Seems a bit harsh.
Mathew 15:4-
the death penalty is often for retribution (the concept of “an eye for an eye”) where as permitted murder if often more controversial as often is consented for deriving from an opinion. The first is to punish the criminal and protect society and the latter is more personal motive. Both, however indirect, are also fueled by revengeful intentions.
Jesus calls the pharisees hypocrites because they allowed their traditions to overule the command of God. Their tradition was to dedicate something “devoted to God” in order to get out of doing it somewhere else. So instead of helping their parents, as God had commanded in the Old Testament, they would devote their help “to God.” to get out of doing so.
Matthew 15:4 in context (3-9):Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
” ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’
As to why he didn’t save the two that died with him…I don’t know, I’m just spitballing here but it seems to me if he did, the show would have been over. He would have proven the point of being the son of god and things would have changed right then….no resurrection, no doubting thomas, no holy spirit. I guess he let ‘em go for the greater good.
For the record, I don’t have a problem with capital punishment. I have a problem with people taking down another with religious refrences when the person they are against seems to me to have risen above them under the same blanket of faith.
Just doesn’t make sense.
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There were three occasions where Jesus actually raised people from the dead and that didn’t convince everyone so I doubt that giving the two crucified with him a reprieve would have sealed the deal.
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Brain:
The bible is nothing more than a storybook. Do you honestly think that everything written in the bible is literal? I am technically a Christian but do not follow the normal south Dakotan Christian beliefs. It is hypocritical to say that abortion is murder when you support capital punishment and war which I have no doubt that you do. Mr. Mclaughlin saying about arrogance is completely accurate because the words describe you. I don’t think the login username ‘Brain’ suits you.
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If The Bible is “nothing more than a storybook” on what do you base you’re claim to be “technically a Christian”? What does “technically a Christian” mean? What are the “normal South Dakotan Christian beliefs”?
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Don:
I stated:
“All of the following are in reference to the New Testament or are from New Testament scholars”
This is important because the NT scholars were quoting OT passages, which they found to be relevant within the NT, somehting that Jesus did, quite often, within His teachings.
The context of the Matthew text seems clear. While murderers are subject to execution, those who have hatred in their hearts are subject to going to hell, a much more severe sanction.
This reinforces that the sanctions of men, even to execution, are nothing compared to a sentence to hell. It reinforces the priorities. Don’t be so concewrned about your earthly sanctions, but about your state of salvation at the time of your death.
It’s irrelvant if you think the santion in Acts is too harsh. The Holy Spirit saw it as the appropriate sanction.
Again, the context of Matthew 4 is correction, so that merciful corrections will result in salvation. The goal is not revenge, but correction and salvation.
You seem to be thinking in humanist terms, not heavenly ones
I agree with you interpretation of the Mattehw 4 passage, which hardly needs any discussion as to its purpose, which is obvious.
What you sem to be missing it that Jesus picked a very specific text from the OT to make His point, which was:
God/Jesus: ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.’ Matthew 15:4
He always picked the perfect OT referrence to make His point within the NT, telling us this OT text makes the exact point that I want to make, within this NT circumstance. The chosen OT text is important for that reason. He chose it because it is the perfect example.
Fascinating that you seek to reverse the exact point Jesus was making.
You write:
“I have a problem with people taking down another with religious refrences when the person they are against seems to me to have risen above them under the same blanket of faith.”
Jesus was not rising above the execution of children that dishoner their parents, He was enforcing its importance, in the very contxt of respecting God’s word over man’s traditoons.
Such is true, unless you believe that Jesus was simply being sarcastic, as opposed to making a very important point. Something you clearly do not believe, based upon your correct review of the text.
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“Jesus was not rising above the execution of children that dishoner their parents, He was enforcing its importance, in the very contxt of respecting God’s word over man’s traditoons.”
That is your interpretation which I believe is completely off the mark.
Who was he talking to? What was he speaking about?
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Sorry, had to go, sometimes I actually have to work….where were we
“It’s irrelvant if you think the santion in Acts is too harsh. The Holy Spirit saw it as the appropriate sanction.”
Well, there you have it! Let me get this straight. These two people sold their land and went to give their money to Peter but withheld some for themselves and lied about it and the penalty was death.Right, that seems fair….and that’s OK with you.
So it really doesn’t matter what I say, so having said that……….
Good discussion, nothing solved but I would like to leave with this…….the references you use are from a book, a good book, but just a book of stories to teach lessons. Jesus did not exist any more than Robin Hood or Zeus, but with a greater mythology a better press agent (nice to have the Emperor of Rome on your side).
Till next time.
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