Duluth survey says: We like it here. But about those streets …
July 19, 2012 at 7:00 pm in Duluth News Tribune
While the results of an annual citizens survey offered encouragement to Duluth Mayor Don Ness, he still sees plenty of room for improvement.
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In all fairness bad roads are the norm in the north country. Frost heaves and boils wreck the roads and it is just not Duluth (Superior is as bad) it is all over. It is a never ending battle.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Ya’ know, I’ve heard that same line repeated by people that been here a long time over and over. Apparently it’s been repeated enough times it’s like political talking points, people believe it must be true because heard it so many times. Was this some past mayors lame excuse? because feel sorry for Ness, it’s painfully obvious the streets, water and drain systems been neglected for decades.
I’ve lived all over and in 9 different states and even more different cities and this place has the worst roads have ever seen, bar none. Oh, it’s hard to keep good roads because it gets so cold? Lived in Sawyer county before here, it gets colder and their roads are practically flawless. Lived in Chicago area and though not normally as cold as here, it can get to 25 below every winter but they have also about 9 million more cars traveling their roads.
But we’re soooo far north we just can’t maintain the roads? Don’t they have roads in Winnepeg? Junea? Doesn’t make you kinda go…mmmm….wait a second..wassup with that?
I know of pot holes that been there for over 3 years on hillside that are so bad it could swallow a fiat 500 and cars scrap their bumpers, some scrap front and rear of car if going too quickly and motocross bikers use it as a mogul jump! I’m not kidding either. It’s been that way for over 3 years…maybe longer? I’ve seen the city patch pot holes that looked like they threw a shovel of asphalt from a passing truck at 30MPH and within few weeks, big surprise, the pot holes back. The city has taken this same “drive by” approach for three years and again no surprise, the pot holes still there and getting worse.
Seems all the roads downtown are mostly a mess with pot holes and enough irregularities to make it an obstacle course…but the roads up by miller mall or the highway systems…mmmm…they seem perfectly fine, must be it doesn’t get as cold there….~rolls eyes~
BTW…Jh…not picking on you, I’ve just heard this so many times and even gotten into arguments with relatives that here some time about it…and they’re adament that it’s the frost level….and tried pointing out….soooo…if know that, then why not build for it? and how do you explain all the decent roads around the city?…SMH!!
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Ever been to Helsinki? Long, harsh winters, deep frost, high water table, similar soils and vegetation but their roads are in good “nick” and I don’t entirely know why. I think a lot of the roads out in the country are elevated. I don’t know why Duluth is not a center for road technologies – and I’m serious. I have often thought there could be a polyfoam liner or something that could be laid down as an underlay beneath the first layer of subsurface but someone has probably already thought of that and decided it’s impractical.
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JH45…..In our area, yes, we are vulnerable to seasonal frost heaves etc….but, the conditions of our roads have been very bad….for a long time! When the city crews make emergency patches…..the patches themselves are very bad…it seems as tho the city crews need some training in how to make a good repair….and in perhaps some additional training in operating road equipment! Non-city contractors know how to make a repair….much better than city workers. City people know how to make sewer, water, and gas repairs….but NOT road repairs. The city has not used their resources very well, as they HAD a fund from the casino, to make road repairs from the interest in the fund…..and since then they have used a good portion of the funds principle….on other things, and hence,…..no money for repairs!
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“Non-city contractors know how to make a repair….much better than city workers”…..yeah but they charge you more as well. And that is the whole reason their has been band aid fixits instead of full scale fixits, because people are just not willing to pay for it (as in dont increase my taxes to pay for it). We could take money out of many areas in our budget to meet the roadwork demands however but that is unlikely to happen in a city that has its own parks director….(seriously how do you get that job? lol whatever you pay that person i will do it for half the salary)
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Aside from roads,,,, only 400+/- were surveyed? You must be kidding! That’s pathetic. In any size survey, how could 30% think the housing options are good-excellent or did I misread?
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400 could theoretically be a sufficient sample size.
We don’t know how many got surveys but didn’t return them, how the survey company handled that negative data, did the manner the surveys were distributed create a bias, who wrote the questions, was there bias in the wording, ………….
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David…the article says there were 1200 surveys sent out….only 442 replied back! I sure would like to have seen a lot more surveys filled out…..for, perhaps a better synopsis of the results! The article sure did not spell out very many details of the survey! Does anyone know where someone can get a survey to view all the questions….how they were spelled out…..and what kinds of options did the reader have to reply ( and correctly identify their viewpoint ) in the answers the survey gave to the reader to choose from!
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It is the decision by Karen Diver and the Casino to not honor their word, and pay the city the money they promised to pay, that is killing Duluth on money for road repairs.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Um, not really But good guess though.
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Terra……you are correct….to a point! Unfortunately, the city should never ever put all their eggs in 1 basket…..as they become way to complacent! The city depends way too much….. on hand-outs…..local gov’t aid from Minnesota and from the Federal gov’t…..grants…etc! They do very little in terms of trying to get business……keep business….and grow the population with WORKING FOLKS, thus growing the tax base….and increasing their coffers……instead of begging all the time for grants and hand-outs!
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What seperates Duluth from other cities Fastone and others mentioned? A couple major differences.
Duluth is on the side of a hill. A hill made of basalt with only a thin layer of clay/dirt on top of it. Because of the lack of base layer, we have to put down sand/gravel to create a road bed that a road can be built in the first place. This is why we get so much upheavel from frost…and also why so many roads got washed out in the flood.
The other issue is that Duluth has a climate that is subject to swings. In the spring it is not abnormal to have a nice stretch of 40 – 50 degree weather followed by a string of 10 degree days.
Its the freezing/thawing/freezing/thawing combined with the road bed we have to use which causes the upheavel and subsequent pot holes.
Those other cities do not get that kind of thaw/freeze and aren’t on the side of hill.
Bottom line, if streets are your complaint, you might as well leave…they aren’t going to get better without a major technological jump.
Also, the article states that 1,200 surveys were sent out…I think that is a low number, but statistically you can get a decent sample out of it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Clay soil holds more water than sand, loam or black dirt. It therefore expands and contracts more during freeze/thaw cycles. Thus why the roads are better in non-clay areas.
Common sense.
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To Winner & Bauer~
Let me give one example…take 6th Ave E. up the Hill from 4th St…..now do the same from 4th St. going up 2nd Ave. East..actually, I dare you to drive it at 25 MPH…….one is no problem the other becomes a test of one’s driving skill and vehicle integrity….
Same hill, same climate…or at least common sense would tell you that…coughcough.
Common sense also would tell you that some roads are fine and others best to avoid. You can also compare the Streets as some are fine like 3rd St while 5th Street is riddled with huge pot holes that been there for years… I know the climate changes radically here but common sense would tell you that there’s not a radical difference between 3rd St and 5th St…nor 6th Ave and 2nd Ave East…..but there is radical difference in the streets.
My point and also think point Vern making is when the City wants or needs to do a proper job on streets, it can, but it’s selective. In 1st Example of 6th Ave East uphill, where’s that going? Why it leads to the Mall of course..and 2nd Example of 3rd St. east…that cuts thru St. Mary’s Campus…should again make one go…oh, yeah..wait a minute…why’s that?
Not an expert on roads, unless is Road America..LOL..but it appears more an issue of the city installing proper roads and properly maintaining them where is important like feeding major businesses while ignoring those that don’t and doing shoddy repair on them that doesn’t last even weeks…and they clearly had the money to fix the roads for years but spent on other things…so maybe wrong, but seems more like cost cutting and misappropriation of resources and energy then frost and terrain. But then maybe like say….. it’s just colder on 2nd Ave. East then is on 6th Ave. East…SMH!
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Streets, Roadways, what’s the problem..? I get around fine. I like the Mayor less than the roads.
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Duluth has streets that have a clay base, sand base, lake superiour gabro, underground streems, a climate that goes from -40 to 100 (sometimes it seems like in one day) it is a suprise that the roads are in as good shape as they are.
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Fastone: It is very apparent that you know little about road construction, and even less about topography, city planning and common sense. Major thoroughfares are always constructed with more substance to withstand more abuse.
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umm ok winner your right but you also did not disprove what fastone is stating…which is that the city can make the roads much better (as in they do for the main corridors) but have been neglecting the majority of the city in street repairs. Also when the make new roads and new traffic lights its at the urging of retail chains like Kohls and Best Buy and Super One, they do little to alleviate congestion (matter of fact that new road construction by the mall has actually increaed congestion how sad) but do everything for the business community. What we have here is a city government that has been pushing infrastructure repairs down the road and doesnt have the money to make said repairs. We are due for a massive city govt restructuring of our budget to alleviate these infrastructure concerns or an increase in taxes….neither one is good sign for the citizens of Duluth.
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To Winner who said~ “Fastone: It is very apparent that you know little about road construction, and even less about topography, city planning and common sense.”
Of course it’s apparent…SMH!!…I even said and quote..”"Not an expert on roads, unless is Road America..” so guess you’re right, it was pretty apparent to anyone that can read..LOL…..and topography? It’s a hill for gawdsakes…I can’t figure out what’s wrong with some of you, you act like we have the only hill in the world and the only place that get’s cold…it’s a HILL!! Ya’ know the Swiss built roads thru the Alps, we’ve got roads thru the Sierra’s and the Rockies so common sense would say it’s not some impossible engineering feat and we can do it when want to and have as already pointed out.
Am LMAO at your attempt to crackback me about common sense when you posted…and quote ” Major thoroughfares are always constructed with more substance to withstand more abuse.” which I guess is response to my pointing out that 6th Ave E. is fine because goes to mall and 3rd st too becuase cuts thru St. Mary’s campus…
Ahhh…sooo you are agreeing that the city can make proper roads when want’s to..thank you so kindly for proving my point..which was also what said. I know as outstanding member of the neocon parrot patrol here you, as always do, try to discredit me…but common sense should have told you that trying to defend the streets in Duluth would be a fools folly…but thanks for the chuckles, always a pleasure.
Oh, one last thing…the example I gave of 2nd Ave. E. though but blocks away from 6th Ave. E. and going up same hill is a nightmare with pot holes that could swallow a car. Well part of that is still old paver bricks that must be like 80 years old which means that in that time, it’s NEVER been paved and those holes have been there for over 5 years. Regardless that never been paved, just on fact that there are huge pot holes that cars are getting damaged on and been that way over 5 years….I’ve never lived anywhere where that would be acceptable let alone where people are making excuses for it…that has nothing to do with clay, nothing to do with the hill, nothing to do with the cold and everything to do with lack of city planning and maintenance.
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Comparing apples and oranges.. Roadways in the city are not necessarily “city” roadways. 6th Av E was formerly TH 194 which was built to MNDot standards. Now is designated a MSA (state aide route). 2nd Av E is a city street, considered for the most part above 4th St residential. Both of which have differing load specifications.
Again the Miller Mall area city has no authority on TH53/TH194 aka Central Entrance.
Bottom line most residential roadways are city of Duluth streets, most feeders are MSA (state aide) or County (state aide).
Mesaba, I35, Central Entrance, London Rd, Grand Av (the TH23 portion) belong to MNDot.
If the roadway is rough just drive slower especially in residential areas. (speed limits do not mean always that you can drive that speed). When roadways get upgraded generally the first public response is people are now driving too fast on the road. Just wait and listen to the future complains on Anderson Rd when finished.
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Thank you for explanation on 6th Ave. E. , that makes sense but then by own post what are saying is the city has huge problem with making and maintaining roads. That also makes perfect sense and is painfully obvious and makes one heck of a lot more sense then it’s that it gets cold and the hill is impossible to have a decent road, because again, 6th Ave. E. is fine.
That said and agreeing the problem is with the city properly building and maintaining roads, I don’t really see your last bit of advice of just drive slower as proper solution to enormous pot holes that been there for over 5 years. Of course one drives slower as no choice but they shouldn’t be there for years and years in first place.
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You have stated there are enormous pot holes on Duluth streets. I have driven most all streets within it’s limits and have missed these. Some roads are rough, worst have been old “oil” streets which deteriorate rapidly in rain storms, some poorly constructed and patched concrete streets (63rd W). Please advise where I can find these enormous pot holes.
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Certainly Duluth has challenges keeping the streets in good repair due to climate, soil types etc…. But wouldn’t you think that after being a city for over 100 years they would figure out a way to keep the streets in at least reasonable condition which right now many aren’t. Where there is a will there is a way. If we have more challenges keeping roads in reasonable shape, great, we all have challenges we need to overcome. When confronted with a maintenance challenge different than other cities may have, you need to adjust your street maintenance model…..not just say, oh our soil is different and we’re on a hill so there is nothing we can do. There’s always something you can do….try new things. I remember reading recently about a new process using…wasn’t it taconite tailings or something ? Well….let’s try that and see if it works. If it doesn’t, try something else. Or better yet, don’t assume a street will have a life of 100 years and get the streets on a maintainence/replacement schedule that works for our conditions here.
Fact is, given that much of our underground water and sewer system is almost 100 years old….that tells me they don’t place much importance on upgrading/replacing things on a reasonable schedule. All things have a life span….and when you exceed that time frame without major work, you can’t blame the soil conditions and climate for that.
We don’t live in Duluth, but I have in-laws who do. The street outside the home of one family member was in terrible condition when I first saw it back in the early 80′s after I moved to the area. I don’t believe you could even see any of the original pavement….it was patch upon patch upon patch. Want to know something ? 30 years later it’s even worse….I can vouch for the fact that nothing was done in the past 30 years. Due to what I recall the condition was 30 years ago, I would guess nothing was done for 20 or 30 years before that.
When you see the crews out throwing lose asphalt in a hole in the street and tamping it down with their shoe or a shovel…..how effective and long lasting do they really think will be ? Asphalt needs to be compressed with lots of weight…..probably hundreds of times more weight than the typical shoe or shovel can provide. In minutes you have zillions of little pieces of asphalt mix all over the street (wonderful situation for those on bikes and motorcycles…like lots of little marbles) after a few cars have driven over the patch….that tells you how well it stays in the holes. There’s no prep involved usually….just throw a shovelful in the hole and move on. If that’s the result of the better part of a century of experience patching holes…..we’re not learning very well.
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Thanks Jessica, that is exactly what was saying, all of it, you just said it better…
“When you come to a fork in the road, take it. ”
Yogi Berra
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Granatoid Streets! Duluth invented ‘em and they’re still there!!!
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You can’t have streets made of steaks on a hamburger budget.
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If “streets” are the biggest concern for Duluth residents, then I think it is a big win! We live in a great city…anyone who thinks otherwise is probably delusional. I remember visiting Duluth in the 80′s and would not want to see our city return to that state. Now Duluth is a place where people WANT to live and visit. The people who post on this site with their negative comments are probably not even from Duluth. Keep up the good work Duluth, and definitely don’t take direction from the losers who post on this site. It’s likely they don’t care about our great city!
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