Minn. clergy take different sides on anti-gay marriage amendment
July 13, 2012 at 4:09 pm in Grand Forks Herald
Most of the state’s conservative evangelical churches side with the Catholic Church, state’s largest denomination, in favor of the amendment. Amendment opponents include most of the second-largest denomination, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and Jewish synagogues that have taken stands on the issue. Continue Reading
Its eay to find the false shepards on this topic.
Those shepards that follow scripture are the true shepards. Those that do not follow scripture are false shepards.
Beware of false shepards.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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And beware of those who insist they know what the scriptures say. When they haven’t studied scriptures in their original language, and haven’t studied the original context of the writings, and haven’t addressed the the cultural circumstance. Spare me your obedient posts, you are free to follow your church’s teaching, you are not free to impose it on others.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Do you lock your car doors? Why? If we do not have to follow a moral code, then everyone that wants to steal is free to do so, right?
Keep your car doors unlocked and parked on a public street, so the theives can steal it and/or steal the contents. Since we do not have to follow any moral code, be the first to give to auto theft.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The devil quotes scripture on his own behalf. Those pushing the amendment are tools of Satan, attempting to destroy freedom and justice. They are the ones plotting to destroy humanity and take us back to the dark ages, when men were worked to death to support clergy, women were burned and drowned as “witches”, children were castrated or enslaved, and churches worked to keep people ignorant and uneducated to maintain empires of false theology.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Or even back to the 50′s when gays were considered mentally ill and were sent to hell holes for their “Illness” Which sometimes meant a lobotomy. Or the other statew where they were sent to prison for being gay…….It was the Godly way…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Even if we cannot agree on exactly what scripture says on this topic, one need only look at the calamity that has befallen those states that have turned their back on what is right and are allowing gays to benefit from existing state laws:
New York, Vermont, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Connecticut and Washington DC are experiencing God’s wrath as never before.
What? That didn’t happen like they said it would?
Never mind.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Not to mention the wall of flames that border Canada……
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I wish people on both sides would just admit that they both read the Bible for their own purposes. Yet, the anti-gay people have more to prove because they’re the ones who want to take away people’s rights. The Southern Baptist Convention, which is the nation’s largest Protestant body, used the Bible to justify slavery and then segregation for more than a century. Now religious conservatives are doing the same thing but only with gay people because it’s now unfashionable to be racist. Unfortunately, you can still hide behind your Bible and get away with being a homophobe.
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And apparently you can still hide behind your bible and sexually abuse altar boys.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Or hide behind your football and your university. Perversion comes in many forms.
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Do not forget the out of court settlements (done in secrecy) by public school districts. Administrators and teachers are not immune, either.
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Sexual abuse is a wide spread problem and is unacceptable whether a church, or a university. Although the Catholic Church coverup was wrong, I believe it was a small % within the church. Church leadership should be able to comment on moral issues within this country. Those that imply all church leaders are guilty of pedophilia and its coverup, I do not believe fair!
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Well said John B. Here’s my question: when to churches stop being churches and become political organizations? How much time do they spend ‘campaigning’ to affect legislation that affects all of society based on their belief system?
I don’t think anyone really cares what any specific church does within their own walls. Snake dances and all.
It’s when the church attempts to force their doctrine on all of society, pretending it’s based on ‘morals’ or ‘ethics’ that they cross the line.
In my opinion, of course.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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If you believe in god and heaven, how much do you have to hate someone to know that heaven and paradise awaits after death for the true believers and not proselytize to the sinners to try to convince them of it because it would make it socially awkward? Or how about if I saw that there was a semi truck barreling down upon you and was going to splatter you but you didn’t believe me? There would come a certain point where I would tackle you to save you from yourself, despite your belief that you were safe.
Are you trying to say that true believers should not try to proselytize to others even though they know in their heart that paradise awaits? Because that would hypocritical and wrong. That’s their job, saving souls. Yet the gay nation takes every opportunity to denigrate all religion.
Now, I’m neither gay nor a bible thumper but it seems that both factions give themselves too much importance in the big picture. Neither of you are one up over the other yet you both act like you are the only true way. The gay nation and religion are the same thing. They are both cults of personality with their own agendas. I think it would be best for everyone else to ignore both establishments.
Also, what about all the priests and whatnot in the news that embrace homosexuality? Are they ok with the gay nation, despite their organized religion?
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DI, the difference is I do not force certain religions to be gay, yet certain religions attempt to dictate how me and millions of others should live.
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Mac, after reading your posts this last year, I believe you are a wonderful person! Religions need to interpret scripture to the best of their human ability and may be wrong often?? I hope you are treated fairly and with love but it may be unfair if you expect organized religion to ratify a ifestyle they believe is forbidden!
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Johnb: It’s not the job of religious groups to ratify the behavior of those not in their churches. The idea that if you feel morally certain about something, you have the right to use the force of law to make me conform to it is unamerican.
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Sandy, shame on you and your comments on Catholicism!!! Your religious biogtry is disgusting!!!!!!! Tarnish a whole religion based on your “???>” Your zealotry, Sandy. is offensive to my agnoticism and perhaps my total disbelief in a diety! I am humble but you believe you are riding a white horse but I see you on a Jack Ass, or perhaps a a small brained MULE Sandy!!
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As I’ve mentioned before, when we decide basing constitutional law on religion is the right thing to do; we must remember Muslim is the fasted growing religion in the United States.
Just sayin’ . . .
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That is correct. The Muslims are a fast growing religion in the US (and Europe, too.)
Problem is, is that false shepards tickle the ears of people, telling them that having abortions and using contraceptives is not a sin.
The “Christians” that have abortions and use contraceptives are having a declining birthrate. Instead of the US Christians having a rising birthrate, it is actually declining. Therefore, the Muslims are increasing in numbers by giving birth, as well as immigrants and converts.
If you do not want a Christian USA, then think about what will happen with a Muslim USA.
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Robert. Wow.
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I think someone is taking the term ‘Be fruitful and multiply’ a little to the extreme.
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“He found several passages in which Jesus talked about divorce and adultery being wrong, but he never mentioned same-sex marriage”
Then apparently the Christians who are so gung ho to get this passed aren’t doing their first job…They need to get those Christians who are going against the bible by committing adultry and divorce…..And stone them….After all…That was the accepted penalty when these words from ancient people were supposedly made in to some words of their diety. If you’re going to take the words as words of law…Then clean your own house first….
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I missed the announcement for the change over to ‘the christian states of america’. Keep your book of fairy tales to yourself. It has nothing to do with my life or (in theory) my country. If gay people want to be legally married…let them be! Enough with this trying to distort and decypher millenniums old fables (made up when they KNEW the world was flat and wheels were made of STONE) to fit your uptight, personal ‘issues’ . How about we all follow the basic ‘do unto others…’ rule and stop trying to legislate PEACEFUL human relationships. I think this country has more serious matters at hand.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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So its a fairy book of fables? Read the Bible and see the Wisdom in it. Especially the Psalms.
If your stock broker raided your retirement portfolio and spent it on a trip to Bermuda, would that be OK?
We have a Moral Code based on Natural Law, Bible, Ten Commandments. Same with Federal and State laws. They were based on a moral principle, such as stealing.
If you want no moral laws, buy a one way ticket to Somalia. You can do whatever you want, if you can live to tell about it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You are making a totally unwarrented assumption that only religion carries a moral mandate. Morality does not reside exclusively in religious belief. We can be moral and not religious. Our moral codes are encrypted into our DNA when we look out for others and do what’s best for society. I find it astonishingly selfish and narrow-minded for any religeous person to assume their way is the only way to moral behavior.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The Brothers Grimm is full of wisdom as well, but it is purely fairy tales.
You believe the Bible is law.
Others strongly disagree.
This is why there is separation of church and state.
Morals did not originate in the Bible. Do not kid yourself and believe they did.
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Moral code pre-dates christianity. Check out the Code of Hammurabi. Written sometime around 1750 BC. Causing harm to one’s fellow man is something that we as a species have always looked down upon. Even before written language I could imagine that when a man’s food or other property was taken he would lash out in revenge. Our current system is a more civilized version of just that. If you look at the 10 commandments, which are supposedly the greatest moral laws of all-time according to the christians. But it only contains 4 laws regarding how we treat each other. 4 of them are about worshiping the christian god. 1 says be nice to mom and dad, and the last not to wish you had what your neighbor has. So the 4 are don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, and don’t lie. What about don’t own a slave? What about don’t commit an act of rape? What about don’t assault thy neighbor? I mean those are important too. The bible is rubbish. Written by man to control the people. Well luckily it is losing it’s grip, but we have a long ways to go before our society will rise to the level of enlightenment.
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I’m with Petey on this one. I have enough to worry about without getting involved in someone else’s life. This is another reason why I will not join a church. I will attend one ocassionally and add to the offering but nobody tells me what to do or how to think. They don’t need to. I have a mind of my own.
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Let’s see now. What was that 10th suggestion that God gave mankind? Oh yeah, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s “butch”…
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Unless a Shepard is preaching Scripture, then the “shepard” is a false Shepard.
Some Bible verses that condemn homosexuality are:
a. Genesis Chapter 18 &19 describe Sodom and Gomorra.
b. Romans 1:24-27
c. I Corinthians 6: 9-10
d. 1 Timothy 1:10
e. Mathew 5:8
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Robert, no one is arguing what those verses say.
What we are arguing is that not all of America thinks basing constitutional law on one book of religion is a good idea.
Just because several forms of Christianity are in fashion right now, doesn’t mean that’s going to be the case forever.
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Christianity is supposed to be based on Scripture, not on which way the wind is blowing.
The Bible has enternal truths. If someone is trying to lead you away from scripture, then they are a false shepard.
Lucifer is alive and trying to snatch souls. Be careful of who you allow to shepard you.
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Robert, I do not disagree.
Where the problem lies is in the argument that it’s perfectly fine we base state and federal law on the principles outlined in popular religious books. Virtually every arugment against allowing existing laws to apply equally to all is based on certain individual’s biblical interpretation.
Generally speaking, the US has been all about freedom and equality for all.
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Well, if you want to play this card….
Is it right to stone woman if they have premarital sex?
If you are preaching scripture for what it is, then yes. However, most people would very strongly disagree with this statement. The Bible is a guide, not a book of law. It is a guide for Christians to follow and to never impose upon others.
Citation: Deut. 22:13-21
Side note: I am a Catholic, but will never impose my views upon others. I feel it is not my place to direct others how to live. You should take note. This amendment is garbage.
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Does the Catholic religion teach Jesus fulfilled the law (of which Deut lays out the law for Jews)? If it did, you may have insight into why Christians don’t perform stonings.
Without understanding HOW and WHY Jesus fulfilled the law, it seems you miss the foundation of Christianity, which leads to all sorts of wierd scriptual interpretation.
Anyone who sits in church listening to a 2-minute reading of scripture, followed by a 10-min sermon and spends no other time during the week in prayer or studying the Word may have a fool for a teacher and incredible ignorance. KJV + concordance (to correctly interpret 1600′s language into today’s English) = good study.
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For those of us who are not now nor ever intend to be part of the religion this all seems to come down to interpretations of wisdom written in a time when superstition played a huge part in the peoples lives because they had little if any actual science to explain even the most basics in life. So it’s difficult to accept many if any of those earlier considerations.
Where as what I can remember from the philosophies of the bible I too had to learn growing up….There’s a lot of mention in the new testimant about how to live with each other. A lot of really good ideals….Espcially about tollerance and going the extra mile to achieve peace……..Somehow those parts seem a bit more like suggestions to some Christians so they focus on these parts of the old testimant and have in the past when they wanted to justify segreggation of others…
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“interpretations of wisdom written in a time when superstition played a huge part in the peoples lives because they had little if any actual science to explain even the most basics in life.”
hmmmm, has science explained how Jesus healed the sick? It seems science acknowledges the brain changes when in prayer (or meditation), and often Jesus prayed before healing the sick. If science could explain healing by prayer + the laying on of hands, it would open a whole new option to healthcare.
But you did give me a chuckle tundrabeast, as superstition is as alive and well today as it was 2000+ years ago. Do you know anyone who wears their “lucky” Vikings apparel when the team plays? Or carries a 4-leaf clover or lucky coin?
If you remember “tolerance” as a main philosphy in the NT, would you please provide some examples. In my studies, I don’t recall reading about tolerance of any sinful behavior. There can be an interesting discussion about agape love, and how to love our neighbors as God loves us (his sinful children); but then I have to wonder if people expect God to ignore another aspect of his character…that of judge. I believe agape love allows us to love the sinner, while hating the sin. (BTW, I never get in people’s faces to “preach” to them. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to bring about a feeling of “wrong”. The HS is a fascinating study.)
As much as I take the Biblical admonition about homosexuality, I think the government should stay out of people’s personal life, and not just on marriage choices. But I’m in WI, not affected,…but watching…this MN issue, so I’ll try not to intrude on your discussion again. I’m here because I’m puzzled/curious by preachers who read in the Bible homosexuality is an abomination to God…and seem to turn their back on the person who should be their first (and only, if the words of Matthew 22:37 mean anything to them…noting the “all” clarifiers) love….
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Obviously I’ve been away from the bile a long time so I can’t really make direct quotes, but my interpretation from what I remembered was basically something like this….We all know the difference between right and wrong, and we all know how we interpret wrong doing towards ourself. So always chose to do what you know in your concience to be right, and use how you expect others to treat you as the guiding point.
As for my point about the bible being written under ignorance….I’m referring to how they interpreted things like natural occurances in things like earthquakes or extreme weather. How many of those items were often explained by those tribes and tribes all over the world as signs from the gods. So much of the doctrin is out of those beliefs.
Yes….In many cultures a form of meditation has proven to have many positive and even remarkable outcomes. Then again the human mind is capable of doing a lot of remarkable things without actually having to attribute it to a miracle.
My point has always been that the Christian bible has some very valid philosophies in it. Beyond that it is historic and a mixture of mythology to explain how things worked…Much in the same fashion the writers who were educated in Greek learned from that cultures mythology…..Philosophies valid, History….Mostly valid, Mythology….Interesting story telling…
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tj, if you live in MN you can vote whether or not marriage should be between a man and a woman therefore using the mind of your own.
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I will be voting against this amendment. For me it is the right thing to do. I am hoping the majority of Minnesotans feel the way I do.
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Here is something I can’t figure out regarding the ELCA:
If you are a unmarried pastor and you have sex outside of marriage with someone of the opposite sex you are relieved of your pastorial duties.
If you are an unmarried pastor and you have sex outside of marriage with someone of the same sex you are just fine.
Which sin is greater adultry or homosexual fornication? According to the ELCA it must be adultry because you can’t get kicked out for homosexual fornication. I am open to an explanation.
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I meant to write “Which is the greater sin – adultry or homosexual fornication”. Of course the answer is they are both a sin, but the reality is they are treated differently by the ELCA. I yes I realize I am not without sin but I do have questions about the way this is being applied to clergy.
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Spectator, your question demonstrates one of the biggest problems with organized religion: categorizing which sins are ‘worse’ than others.
Common sense would indicate that when same gender marriage becomes universally legal, the ELCA will balance the sin score equally amongst same and opposite gender couples who have sex without buying a license from their state government.
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It does not look like the ELCA is going by Scripture. Just because a Snoyd votes a certain way does not mean its right. The Bible is printed in black and right.
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I think Spectator’s question was rhetorical. Some churches take 50 years to make minor changes in interpretation of church doctrine and it’s done by a few educated scholars. Other churches and synods make changes at annual conferences with elected delegates from each community. Changes in ideology based on the popular vote can create such a conundrum and is typical of synods like the ELCA. One might have a case in arguing that democracy has no place in interpreting church doctrine.
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I still haven’t received an answer from the gay nation about priests that embrace homosexuality yet are involved in organized religion. The priests lean towards a gay friendly doctrine yet there are also many, many other facets of their religion that I’m sure the gays would bridle at. Does the gay nation consider these priests hypocritical and misguided or do they endorse them because of their views about homosexuality? Isn’t the commandment “thou shall not kill” a part of man’s law also, making the gay nation have to bare the burden of being dictated on how to live? Or do they just pick and choose what parts of the bible to live by that is convenient, just like most bible thumpers?
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Well, I cannot speak for the gay nation but here’s my opinion: religious leaders who demonstrate God’s love toward all of humanity are okay. Religious leaders who use bible verses to justify intolerance (gays, women, minorities) are not.
Don’t start in with pedophiles and bestiality and murderers and so forth. Different topic.
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Ok, thank you for the answer. I guess I do consider you yourself to be Duluth’s representative of the gay nation so you’re speaking for the gay nation, with a bottom rocker of Duluth Chapter.
I’m thinking that the gay views expressed concerning gay friendly priests is that you only care about it when they use their religion as a vehicle for intolerance. All that other bible stuff like the commandments and whatnot are viewed as hogwash, which is confusing to me because you give so much weight, time and energy to the intolerance aspect but just fly over all of the other stuff. My point is that if you are against one aspect of the bible so vehemently, you should be against the greater majority of the whole book at least. It’s not fashionable to pick and choose just certain parts. That’s why the bible thumpers aren’t taken very seriously and here you guys are doing the exact same thing. I guess I don’t care either way really but I look for consistency. Hypocrisy bothers me and we are all hypocritical some times at least but I try to stay ahead of it when I can.
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For someone who is neither religious or gay I really am not overly concerned of the agenda of either group as long as either group doesn’t try to make everyone that doesn’t follow their philosophy as wrong or evil. I take my being a Heathen seriously, but I don’t atempt to make others adhere to my philosophy either. So why should some who follow specific religious doctrin be allowed to direct their beliefs into laws that effect everyone?
We can see in the world where that’s the case and we see the great injustice in those societies where religious doctrin dictates laws bery much the way this laws if passed would dictate our laws. What it apparently does is not allow people to exercize thier civil right to a legal marriage. I’ve brought the question up earlier. If this law that is supposed to reflect the Christian doctrin in the old testiment as laws for our society today, then what about many of the other old laws in the old testiment that would have us stone people for what they ate, wore, or behaved like in some manner? If the old testiment laws are to be followed, then where do they stop?
The New testiment is where the philosophy that makes the doctrin one that’s been followed ofr all these years. That’s where it is layed out to be tollerant and live in peace with each other…..That’s the part that often seems to get picked by good church folks as to what should be followed and what can be skirted…..If they didn’t do that then I doubt there’d be much of an issue…….
Oh and by the way…..Even if they do marry….There’s no law that says non gays have to attend……It can happen without anyone else ever having o witness it…..Although I’m guessing that the very thought that some might be sitting in a pew Sunday where some gay person sat the day before while a gay wedding was performed might be unsettling…..They only have to ignore they’re even happening to not be affected….
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All of this dueling scripture stuff would be amusing if it wasn’t for the eons of bloodshed and misery that have resulted from it.
True morality will never come from superstitious ideologies. In contrast, a moral code based on humanistic ethics is much better — and simpler. Here it is: If your actions result in harm to others, then they are of questionable morality.
Think about that before you vote in November.
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“If your actions result in harm to others, then they are of questionable morality”
And how do you know your actions have no negative impact, or unintended consequences, on others? You don’t. Do you want the illusion of taking the high road?
Because I question WHO determines the morality in your “moral code based on humanistic ethics is much better”. Telling lies must be okay, because the US Supreme Court said so, yet the Bible says, “no lying.” Do you like it when someone lies to you? Or do you have a graduated scale of acceptable lies?
In the NT, homosexuality is an “abomination” to God. Okay, I won’t engage in it. I have a homosexual sibling….I can love him because the NT also teaches to love the sinner, and hate the sin. Difficult, but do-able.
The Bible says Christians are IN the world, not OF the world. A distinction worth thought before calling the Bible, “superstitious ideologies”. And yes, there have been many unholy wars/actions as a result of misinterpretation and zeolously. I believe those people will stand in judgement and be punished by a just God.
Re: US Constituion and Christianity. I couldn’t find the SMU (?) study that showed the % of US Constitution from the Bible, but did find this: apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=7&article=2556
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What an amazing response!
How do I know the likely results of my actions? Because I can use a modicum of intelligence to anticipate those results. I certainly don’t need an elderly virgin dressed in a frock to do it for me!
The SCOTUS didn’t say lying is moral (although it could be the moral choice in some circumstances) — they said it was free speech. Has religion hampered your thinking so much that you can’t tell the difference?
Some cherry picked Palestinian tribal mythologies excoriate gays — so you think that should be modern morality? Grow up out of the iron age for goodness sake!
Punished by a “just God.” Which one? Humans have believed in thousands of them over the years!
As for your link — try reading the actual writings of the framers (especially Jefferson and Madison) instead of biased screeds from apologist web sites.
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