OUR OPINION: Which comes first, the exit or the mall?
July 2, 2012 at 8:55 pm in Grand Forks Herald
An outlet mall for southwestern Grand Forks?
What a great idea.
Here’s hoping the city and prospective developers don’t let the lack of a key Interstate 29 exit bring the project to a halt.
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Great, more rude Canadian tourists clogging up overcrowded streets that are currently falling apart, and Guy Useldinger laughs all the way to the bank and his million-dollar mansion in the Rockies. Another great move by a city desperate for a real economy and all it can do is take the easy route that leads to minimum wage slave labor.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I could care less how rude they are as long as they bring their wallet. As the last 5 years has shown; they (the Canadians) spend less & less each trip. Their economy is as tenuous as ours.
The mall will be an albatross. You won’t have to worry about traffic jams, there won’t be enough visitors to make that fear a reality
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I don’t think there’s much to worry about….They’ve had that other overpass set up for ramps for several years now and they still haven’t mentioned when that will get done. That’s actually needed for Merrifield and that little industrial area that trucks have to get to by running through town now. Maybe someday as we continue to work towards annexing Thompson we’ll need more exits…But 47th….That would be a huge waste of taxpayer money for a few business people….Oh wait…That probably means it will happen then….
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It would make much better sense to put the outlet mall further South and off the Merrifield Road (County Road 6). Of course the history of “planning” in Grand Forks shows that very little thought goes into it. That’s why the Alerus center is located where it’s difficult to enter and exit and will always cause traffic problems. Grand Forks has a long history of zoning commercial areas next to residential neighborhoods. When it comes to lining the pockets of the good ole boys… that’s all that really matters in the end.
The proposed location north of 47th Avenue S is a BAD IDEA!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Outlet malls are a scam to start with. There are really no good deals to be had. Regular store sales generally are lower priced. The two better priced stores in an outlet mall are Nike Shoe Factories and Neimann Marcus Last Call stores. This is from my experiance with the outlet malls in Las Vegas, Stateline, Arizona Mills, and Casa Grande.
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My experience with the now-defunct Woodbury Mall off 694 was merchandise that couldn’t get through quality control, still at a fairly high price.
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Outlet malls are a dinosaur. Been to Medford south of the cities on I-35, its mostly dead except for a few stores while the one near Rogers is busy. This isn’t the area for them, they wont last due to the winters, they suck up more energy to heat than a regular mall.
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What’s the attraction of an “outlet store”?
I always thought it was the same Communist Chinese garbage as what’s sold in regular stores…but with more emphasis on brand-name (i.e., paying more for a name brand than an equivalent generic product due to perceived “status”.) The main difference is that there’s a whole store for one name brand, instead of having only the “top moving” products of that brand as shown at other retail stores.
Not much status inherent in cheap-junk Chinese crap no matter what name or heavily-advertised logo the Communist Collaborator in this country puts on the package. If they were giving away most of that stuff for free, I wouldn’t walk across the street to claim my share.
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It’s all part of making Grand Forks a destination city. You know, like Mayor Brown wants.
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Outlet Stores that are High End would be a plus…more selection would be good for all. Ralph Lauren, Coach, Kitchen stores, Eddie Bauer, LL Bean, Stride Rite, Dean & Delucca, Nike, ReBok/Rockport, Gap, Areo Apostle, etc., etc….can’t wait! Not enough selection in town for shoes…boat shoes, shoes for tennis or racket-ball. If you build it we will shop there! PLEASE don’t wait for a new interchange.
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A high end outlet store is an oxymoron. L. L. Bean? Use the catalog. Aren’t there enough places in Grand Forks to shop?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“Outlet Stores that are High End would be a plus…more selection would be good for all. Ralph Lauren, Coach, Kitchen stores, Eddie Bauer, LL Bean, Stride Rite, Dean & Delucca, Nike, ReBok/Rockport, Gap, Areo Apostle”
“High end” Communist Crap? I bet every one of those stores sells little to nothing that’s made in this country. Those stores are EXACTLY my complaint posted previously–they all sell bottom-feeder garbage dressed up with trendy logos.
More junk we DON’T need.
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These are not high end stores though. They are just stores for the masses.
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An outlet store would be perfect for Grand Forks. It would give some of the other stores more competition. Less people would probably be driving to Fargo for shopping and would spend it right in Grand Forks. The Columbia Mall is a sad excuse for a mall. There’s a few trendy stores and the rest aren’t even worth looking at. Grand Forks needs more of a selection, something different. And why are people so worried about Canadian shoppers? Yes, I will agree many of them are rude and just worried about finding a bargain, but can we really complain that they’re spending their money in our country, our state, our towns, instead of their own? Reality is it’s a good thing for us.
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P.S… PLEASE don’t wait for an exit! Get the mall going.. the exit can be done later. The lack of an interstate exit has not stopped people from shopping at Furniture Row. I guarantee people will go to the outlet mall, regardless of how they get there. Grand Forks just needs better signs to direct people in the right way.
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The function of an outlet mall is to intercept retail traffic before it moves on to the next city. IOW the mall should be on the north side of GF along I29 in order to divert Winnipeg traffic before it goes to GF or Fargo. The only reason it is planned for the south side is because that is where Useldinger has property. The MSP outlet malls are meant to intercept I94 traffic coming from the NW before the money moves into the Maple Grove mall area & on to the MOA. The function of the Cabella locations in Rogers & Owatonna is to intercept outstate retail traffic from the Dakotas & Iowa before it goes to MSP. Specifically Cabellas is positioning itself to intercept MOA traffic that would be drawn by a huge Bass Pro Shop @ MOA. I believe Bass Pro Shops negotiated leasing rights to any MOA expansion to compete with Cabella’s midwest presence. Back to GF, an outlet mall would be half right @ a south Forx location because it would to some extent keep GF from going to Fargo to shop & Peggers too.
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It’s easy to get the necessary exit. Just have Goldmark own commercial property there and the exit will be there in no time. It always worked in Fargo, why not Grand Forks.
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And we all know who owns Goldmark, don’t we. Rhymes with Prick Erg.
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Wow….They didn’t dump thatr….I thought they were going to dump me the other day on a typo for Whittling where I hit the S instead of W……They came back and let it through…After I resubmitted it with the correction…
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I found out that you can insult politicians but not people that live in Duluth. Fly explained it all to me. I understand it now. I don’t like it….but I understand it.
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Dont fall for it. Albertville didnt have an exit to get to it for a long time, and it still doesnt if you are coming from the east you still have to drive through town. Also, many many years ago I heard that developers had “all but signed” a land deal in Hillsboro…..complete with free land. That should be investgated before we spend uber millions on a pipe dream. This might not be the field of dreams we are looking for….might be, but oh boy, leaders should proceed with caution.
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The exits at Albertville are still the same as they have been for over 30 years. They never did build an exit for the outlet mall there.
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Of course they did. Look @ the map.
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Which exit would that be? The one when you’re going east? There before the mall. The one going west? There before the mall. I have been making that drive regular basis for over 30 years. Exit 201 was already there before the mall was built.
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I’ve been driving the route for 40 yrs. So exit 201 is why they put the mall there.
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I will never go to this place if it is built. I quit shopping for clothes in stores when the internet was invented. I thought we all did but apparently we have some hold outs. Wake up people…join the 21st century.
What a waste of good farm land…pitiful…pitiful…pitiful.
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You’re right..Unlike the alkili along Highway 2 this is good land
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True to his style, Mr. Dennis bases his editorial on another fallacy. In this case it’s the false dilemma: exit or outlet? Notice he never considers neither. Any developer planning on building an outlet mall would know from past history to go running to the city council for all kinds of monetary goodies, from development funds to tax abatements. And Hal and company would fall all over themselves to approve them.
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Cabelas in Rogers doesn’t have an exit. You have to drive almost a mile south to get to it from the exit for Rogers. We’ll build an exit for a mall & not for the airport even when kids are killed there. Put the outlet mall west on US 2 across from the airport & get an overpass built killing 2 birds with one stone. Since so many Peggers find their way to the airport they’ll find their way to a mall too.
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Why don’t you guys give as good as you get and go to outlet malls in Canada?
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Is there one between the border & “The Peg”.
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We pay enough down here much less where our money is worth less in exchange…….Not much incentive…
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The function of an outlet mall is to intercept retail traffic before it moves on to the next city. IOW the mall should be on the north side of GF along I29 in order to divert Winnipeg traffic before it goes to GF or Fargo. The only reason it is planned for the south side is because that is where Useldinger has property. The MSP outlet malls are meant to intercept I94 traffic coming from the NW before the money moves into the Maple Grove mall area & on to the MOA. The function of the Cabella locations in Rogers & Owatonna is to intercept outstate retail traffic from the Dakotas & Iowa before it goes to MSP. Specifically Cabellas is positioning itself to intercept MOA traffic that would be drawn by a huge Bass Pro Shop @ MOA. I believe Bass Pro Shops negotiated leasing rights to any MOA expansion to compete with Cabella’s midwest presence. Back to GF, an outlet mall would be half right @ a south Forx location because it would to some extent keep GF from going to Fargo to shop & Peggers too.
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To borrow two phrases from the past: STOP THE MADNESS & JUST SAY NO!
Outlet malls are so last decade. They were a drop in the pan fad that has since fizzled.
When I was in PHX there were several outlet malls; all of whom went out of business or have 60% vacancy rates.
BAD BAD BAD idea
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If the land owner want to get some taxpayer dollars and the wealthy businessmen in Grand Forks wants it, it will happen and the taxpayers will end up paying the bill. It’s just another pipe dream the so-called city planners conjured up like they’ve done in the past.
Grand Forks has some of the worst city planners for a town of this size. If they would actually do their job instead of worrying about lining the pockets of businessmen this town would be in much better shape.
South Washington street is still a slum. South Forks Plaza (I refuse to call it “Grand Cities Mall”….. who in their right mind came up with that name anyway?) is terrible. The Town and Country shopping center is finally getting a make over after years of neglect. The Target Store at Columbia Mall is still empty. How about working to attract businesses to these places instead of letting the city decay?
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Excellent Bob. I couldn’t agree with you more. I hope the city of GF doesn’t add taxpayer dollars to Guy Useldinger’s dream. Let him fund it himself if he believes in it so much.
If money is going to be spent fix what is already here. The central part of GF is getting as neglected as the northend.
I’m sure people are sick of hearing this…but…I’ve been living in the TC’s for the past seven weeks. They have an interesting way of doing business there. They use their older buildings. It’s a great concept.
Grand Cities…pffft…we are The Forks! How dare they shove that ridiculous name down our throats?
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What are you talking about tj. MSP has torn down most of the old buildings to the consternation of most people. This happened in the 60s urban renewal programs. What you see in MSP is the relatively few old blds. left being used. If you really understood GF you would realize Grand is an accurate name. When the French fur traders arrive here 180 or so yrs. ago they saw the junction of the 2 rivers & it appeared to them as a “grand fork”. Fargo only wishes it had such a grand natural feature like GF, Winnipeg & MSP have in their rivers.
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What part of Minneapolis are you taking about? The old Gateway District? Minneapolis has numerous old buildings left from years past. Look at the Warehouse District and how that has been revitalized. Now where exactly are you talking about?
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You don’t need to insult me Spearman. I do know my community’s history and the history of the RRV. Now I just want to add…that is a Fork in the rivers…not a Grand.
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The French called it “Le Grande Fouche” or the GRAND Fork not the “FORK”.
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Then why isn’t it called The Grand Forks Cities? The Grand Cities is dorky. The Forks…is hip. IMO
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And Cowboy how many city planning systems have you studied to make such an unsubstantiated comment? BTW, if you paid attention you would know the Target bld. is going to be a new Scheels sporting goods store.
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I don’t know the complete history of the Twin Cities but I do see many older buildings being used for small shops and restuarants along Franklin Ave S. and South Lyndale Ave. To me it is more attractive than a new strip mall. I don’t think the appearance of the outlet mall in Albertville is interesting at all but apparently some people do. This is just my opinion Spearman.
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spearman, Urban Planning was my major in college. I have worked for two different cities in this venue.
And the last time I looked, the old Target was still empty as it’s been for years. When Sheels opens for business I’ll believe it.
Instead of building an outlet mall on the outskirts of the city, those people the Herald likes to call “city leaders” need to focus on the core area: downtown and Washington Street. Too much has been built on 32nd already and now they’re talking 47th?
A supermarket is needed near downtown. The people who live in that area are forced to head out to Hugo’s on S Washington or 13th Ave N. There used to be several places downtown to shop for groceries: on the corner of University and 5th, off DeMers on EGF and S 3rd St. to name a few. They’re all gone.
Other than KMart on Washington St, where can you go to buy a television set? 32nd is about it. What used to be downtown has all been moved to the extreme southwestern edge of the city. Why? because those who owned the land wanted to sell it.
There’s another city with this same problem: Montreal. Two families own the land on the edge of that large city. They have alliances with the city fathers and Montreal grows in the direction of whatever family sold the land to the city. Unfortunately Grand Forks has the same problem.
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.
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They bought land on the sw corner of GF because they knew the planners strategy was to square off the city to prevent growth only to the south along Washington. Columbia Rd. & I-29 allowed that strategy to develop for the good of the cities fuel consumption & infrastructure needs. You may have worked for 2 cities but it doesn’t sound like you know the history of GF.
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spearman , I don’t know the history of the city? You apparently haven’t read many of my posts. I’ve lived in Grand Forks off and on for over 50 years. Shopped at Tweet’s grocery, ate at Phil and Lil’s and Jacoby’s, bought a car at Absey’s. Used to shop at Sears when it was on N 3rd st, BIll Larson Company and remember how many times urban renewal was voted down until it was passed. Happy Harry’s was on the corner of 5th and DeMers. Sat at the ball games in the stadium of the Grand Forks Chiefs. Do you remember with the Washington Street underpass was two lanes and S 20th Street was a gravel road out in the country? How about when Rydell Chevrolet was on N 5th St and the rest of the car dealerships were downtown? Trenda, WIlcox & Malm, Nemetz Motors?
There …… am I qualified to know the history of the city now?
I can say the reason the city grew to the southwest in two words: Art Greenberg. The swampland he inherited was no good to him other than parceling off to the city for some cash. Politics at the local level.
It would have made more sense for the city to grow along the two US Highways that pass through the city, but instead it went southward. Little was done to expand the city westward. Goldfine’s department store wanted to build a mall on #2 on the west edge of the city, but the city “leaders” didn’t think it was glamourous enough because they were after Dayton-Hudson’s carrot waving in their collective face.
spearman , the next time you make assumptions like your claim of my ignorance of the city, know what you’re talking about.
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Been a long time since I heard anyone say they not only knew of the old stadium with the Chiefs, but who actually went to some games. I did too….Not too many because by the time I was old enough to have someone willing to take me…They closed the park and took it all down. Man…That’s some time ago..
Remember when Red Owl was pretty much the end of town, and then a few year later they built K-Mart way out in the country fields? People thought they were foolish for building a store out of town like that….Old K-Mart is buried pretty deep these days…..Lot of changes to Forks since the 50′s
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For those who don’t remember it, the Grand Forks Chiefs stadium sat near the DeMers Ave fire station. It was an impressive stadium in its day. I was in elementary school but remember going to the games when I was very young.
The Red Owl Store was in the north half of the building, and Tempo department store was in the south half. Tempo moved out in the mid-1960′s and Red Owl took over the entire building, then later Leever’s took over Red Owl.
North of the Red Owl Store on Washington was Sandy’s restaurant and next to that was Johnny’s tavern.
KMart was built in 1963-1964 in the middle of Dree’s farm. They tore down the farmhouse which stood on the corner of Washington and 17th and Sears popped up. There was talk of building a mall between the stores which finally came to pass. The day KMart had their grand opening a helicopter flew over the parking lot dropping ping pong balls with prizes, coupons and treats. The parking lot was filled with cars, the only time I ever remember that huge place filled.
A huge controversy was the building of Schroeder Junior High out in the middle of nowhere. People couldn’t understand why they would build a school so far south of town on gravel roads.
But I don’t know these things as according to spearman I don’t know the history of Grand Forks. LOL
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Hell…We probably scrambled for the same ping pong balls…..They used to be able to do fun stuff like that….And the change toss into haystacks….But I think that one got a bit dangerous with too many kids diving in after change.
I don’t really remember Tempo, but I sure do Johnny’s…..I’d like to find someplace that has pictures of the town back then, and especially the old baseball field…..I’d like to see if it was as big as I remember it being when I was a kid……Do you remember if they had something like a Native American in a cheif headress for a logo on the stadium? I think I remember that, but I was pretty young so I’m not too sure…
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I just read through your comment again…I remember all of that…Damn…You must be an old guy too…..Here’s one from the past when we were kids….I think it was Bill Larson that had that big building by the Red Pepper on University…….Tehy used to have a slide show on that wall at night of some of the furniture they were selling……As kids we thought it was like the Starlight Theatre (What the hell…We go two or three channels on the tube…We were easy to impress back then…)
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The tall warehouse on University was used by Kedney Warehouse as long term storage. Bill Larson Company had a carpet warehouse next to the mill downtown on 5th (where the police station is now) that burned down and their large furniture warehouse was 2 blocks behind the Bun lounge just off State Mill Road. The building that was their carpet warehouse is still standing downtown.
BIll Larson was a very nice man. I still have quite a bit of furniture bought from his store on S 4th Street. Ralph & Joyce Carl bought out Bill Larson Company, changed the name to Furniture Fashions. It didn’t last long after the name change.
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Your memeory is much better than mine…..That’s right…I forgot it was Kedney. Used to have the big store letters up top
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I keep thinking though for awhile there was a furniture store in the Kedney building that faced University.
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I think there was too….Maybe just before they converted it to apartments. A lot of those old buildings down there are nice apartments now….The old Rail Road warehouses. They made some nice apartments out of them many years ago. Just like the school I went to kindergarten at (Washington…Right across from St. Mikes church) That too was turned into nice apartments. Funny how they can alway make good use of these old buildings, but the newer buildings have a relatively short shelf life and then it’s time to just put up a new one
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Well Cowboy I know 65 yrs. of GF history & also majored in city planning/public policy. You seem to have forgotten that the GF city planners made a very visible series of planning decisions in the 70s to try & cause growth to go SW in order to, as I said previously posted, cause growth to go SW in order to square the city. That is part of the reason the Columbia RD. overpass eventually passed. Yes Greenburg had a large influence on growth but he had so much land in multiple directions that he wasn’t the main cause of the interest in growing to the SW. Once the interstate reached GF in 69 it became the deciding factor in SW growth & made it possible to grow in a more square symetrical footprint than rectangular to the south.
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I took a Urban Planning course at UND years ago where I was told that the mall was being planned for the area around Highway 2 and I29 because the land wasn’t good for growing and it was on a path of two major highways as well as closer to the air base. Then Greenburg came around and made them an offer for very cheap land out there they they couldn’t refuse. So instead of putting all that in the most logical area they put it out on Columbia and everything’s headed south ever since.
I’m not too sure that the town would have expanded as much north and west as it has south. I think it was inevitable for the town to continue to expand south, but I’m not too sure what we would have seen up in the area around the mall had no mall goen in there, but I think it is a shame that so much good farm land got paved over because of some slick decisions for a few to make big bucks.
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If you’re going to have residential lots sold they need good soil for grass & trees. The mall needed to be by residential development on the south.
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I said it doesn’t “sound” like you know the history of GF because @ the point you posted it wasn’t clear you did. But unless you are aware of the planning decisions made to square off the city in spite of Greenburg’s land you still don’t know the planning history.
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I’ve read through the comments and an interested in this person spearman.
spearman, what your YOUR credentials for urban planning? You’ve made quite a few claims about knowledge of placement and downtown rejuvenation but we haven’t heard where your experience comes from.
You’ve also claim to know a lot about Minneapolis. Which Minneapolis are you talking about? Downtown Minneapolis is full of old buildings what have either gone through gentrification or updating. Look at the north-east side of downtown, the warehouse district near Washington & Hennepin. It’s full of century old buildings being gentrified. Along the river has the mill. There’s the old city hall / police station. Even the Dayton’s / Macy’s downtown store is over a 100 years old.
As for the Albertville outlet mall, there is no direct exit and entrance ramps to there. If you’re coming from or going to the Twin Cities you still have to drive through town to access I-94.
Please cite instances of “consternation of most people ” when these dilapidated builds were razed. Also, who in Fargo “wishes it had such a grand natural feature like GF, Winnipeg & MSP have in their rivers.” You’ve made these claims. Can you please tell us who that is?
And as a last friendly gesture on my part, it is possible to disagree with someone without insulting them. You’ve accused commentators of stupidity and ignorance because you disagree with them. Is that really necessary?
Again, please share your credentials of urban planning with us.
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Thank you for the interesting bits of history Bob. You and Tundra will now be BFF’s. He loves talking about the history of the Forks.
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I like going down memory lane. A lot of the people I grew up with moved away and never came back…..I just went to the west part of the state, then came back a decade later. It’s interesting to compare notes with someone else that was around back then…….Too much mind pollution in my early days…I just don’t have as good of a memory as some of these guys..Fun to be reminded of some of this stuff…
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Tundra….I need you to settle another heated debate between me and Spearman. He insists on calling GF/EGF The Grand Cities. I…on the other hand…perfer the name The Forks. Please give us your take on this. As always….I respect your opinion.
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The Grand Cities was basically an advertizing ploy for tourism. For most anyone who grew up here it’s always been the “Forks” area…..We might have a river and a state line between us, but we’re basically one expanding city much like Fargo and Moorhead are. We just have the fortune of nobody actually naming the east side something totally different. So I think deep down most people from here just really feel it’s one big town…The “Forks” area…….I mean come one…That sound so much better than “The Grand Cities.” Hell….That actually sounds pretentious….”We’re not just any cities…We’re “Grand” No thanks……I’m from Grand Forks……That name doesn’t sound pretentious at all.
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Spearman…..the mediator has spoken on the issue. I win. You lose. Oh well….you won the last debate between us. We are 1-1 now. Thanks again to our mediator…Tundrabeast.
The subject in now closed.
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Where did I say I insist on anything about what GF should be called tj? I was only saying there is justificatiopn for using the term “Grand” because the original name was just that, Le Grande Fouche.
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omit insist…strike that word
It was fun Spearman and I am truly happy that you were not hurt on your camping trip. Until the next time we lock heads…take care of yourself.
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