Support for gay marriage: A shift in attitudes?
June 18, 2012 at 12:00 am in Grand Forks Herald
The belief that public opposition to same-sex marriage has softened in recent years will face an important test this fall, when Washington voters decide whether to throw out a new state law legalizing such unions. Continue Reading
We must return to the biblical definition of marriage: one man and as many wives and concubines as he can afford to keep. Also, it’s high time we revert to stoning women who are not virigins on their wedding night. (Duet 22:21)
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I wonder how many Fundamentalist Christians who insist on a literalist reading of the Bible actually follow all the admonitions found in the Torah? Do they stone their rebellious sons? Sell their daughters into slavery? Eschew pork and shellfish? Don’t eat red meat cooked in milk? Don’t wear clothes with a linen and wool mixture? Don’t plant crops mixed together? Or do they just pick and choose?
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Gene, you know the answer to that — they cherry pick what they agree with!
If not, these would be the mantras of the (so called) Focus on the Family zealots:
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)
“I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” (Matthew 10:35-36)”
Not long now before Minnesota shows the USA how to deal with attempts to make the state constitution a bigotry manual.
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A whole lot of inconvenient verses in the New Testament. There’s the story of the Annunciation where Mary is informed that she will give birth to God. I presume she told all her relatives that. Then you have the scene in Mark where Jesus’ family come to take him away because they think he’s crazy. Which gives rise the the “A prophet is not without honor” quote.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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What is the context of these verses? What literary genre are these verses taken from (there are multiple literary genres in Scripture)? What is the overall context? To whom are these verses directed? Cherry picking to prove cherry picking is absolutely pointless and adds little to the conversation. If your genuinely interested then I’ll take the time to respond. However, if your just trying to stir the pot then I’ve got more important things to do.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You and I both know Deuteronomy and Leviticus are loaded with “abominations.” Not just man lying with another man (notice there is no such prohibition for women), but those that I mentioned above. Of course, then there is the case of poor Onan.
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I can’t help but notice you didn’t directly address any of the points I made which come directly from the Bible.
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All of course while implying people who make their decisions based off biblical passages must not be reading the Bible, right? In today’s times, the Bible should not be taken literally, but more as a general guide to the living of life. If the Bible were to be taken literally, half of the woman in today’s society should have a rock smashed over their heads and slaves would still exist. Of course, if you are okay with these things, by all means keep going on with the point you are trying to push across…
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Biblical literalism is a modern invention. For centuries, if not more, both Jewish and Christian exegetes knew that the texts could not all be read in that way. This is what gave Judaism the Talmud and the Mishnah; interpretations which went beyond what the words said. Christian theologians viewed such possible paths to understanding as the historical, the moral, the symbolic, and the allegorical. Those who literally believe, for example, that there will be four horsemen riding around the world have no grasp of the figurative language used in Revelation.
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GF Resident. Thanks for a very thoughtful and respectful answer. The reality is, mankind picks and chooses which Bible verses support the life and times in which they live. Unless your wife moves out to the back shed every four weeks or so, in your heart you know this is correct. I’m also pretty sure you do not follow Luke 14:26.
Personally I think there as many definitions of marriage as there are couples who are married. What we are talking about is equal protection of existing laws for couples in committed relationships. Not the religious ceremony associated with it.
The God in my world is pretty big on treating each of His children with decency and respect. That decency and respect would inlcude allowing laws to apply equally to all.
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The corporate sector, more and more, is starting to realize that to keep good workers they need to provide benefits to same sex partners. General Mills recently joined that trend in Minnesota. The military is softening on gays in the military. Corpoartions are realizing that you can’t descriminate against people because of thier sexual orientation. I think the idea that same sex marriage will destroy marriage as we know it is unfounded.
Marriage is doing a pretey good job on it’s own of failing. A high per centage of marriages end in divorce and many people are leading productive lives in alternative relationships. Kids are being reaised in loving relationships in non traditional relationships. If two people are in love you can’t legislate thier commitment or love. Someday this will be common place as descrimination against people who are in non traditional relationships ends. It’s silly to prevent people from falling in love with each other.
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This week the Southern Baptist convention elected its first black President. This is noteworthy because not only is the Southern Baptist convention the largest Protestant denomination in the US, but it was formed in the 1840 to support slavery in the South. It was a push back against all those do gooder Quakers and other religious groups in the North who were staunch abolitionists.
If the people who used to wear their sheets can take them off and start to sleep on them as intended; then anything is possible.
Same sex marriage rights is a time whose come. Did anyone even notice that DADT was repealed. I have not noticed an increased number of transvestites in uniform. Have you?
Marriage has always been two parts: one civil and one religious. They are separate and always have been.
If you are divorced you cannot remarry in the Catholic church. How many Catholics are on their second or third marriage without the church’s consent. Are they any less married?
Marriage as a civil institution is regulated by the state. Marriage as a religious institution is regulated by the church. They are not, nor have they ever been, one and the same.
In the early part of the 18 century, there were not enough preachers to go around. Small settlement towns might only see a preacher once or twice a year.
In these cases the “marriage” was recorded (civil authority) and later blessed when the preacher was available. The couple certainly did not wait for God’s representative to show up and make it OK.
I would also encourage you to look up the Berdache among Native tribes in the plains. While not strictly gay marriage as we define it, there is a long history of same sex marriage in the United States.
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“If you are divorced you cannot remarry in the Catholic church.”
Wrong. For about $700 you can get the previous marriage anulled. The RCC has made it easy. The Kennedys made a cottage industry out of it.
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You fogot though that it makes the children of this union bastards.
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Canon 1137 declares children born in a putative marriage continue to be legitimate after annulment.
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Thanks Gene for the link.
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http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/are-children-of-an-annulled-marriage-considered-illegitimate
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You are wrong on all counts. Getting an annullment is not an easy or fast process. Also in many diocese it is a service that is provided free of charge. It took me about a year and my husband about a year and a half to get our prior marriages annulled, so we could get our civil marriage convalidated by the Church. I suggest you go to the Crookston Diocese website and educate yourself about the process.
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As it’s been mentioned previously……Hetro marriages have managed to fall apart just fine without the gays all these years so in my opinion to lay claime that somehow gay marriages will lesson the diginity of marriage is just foolish. If gays want to try what a whole lot of straights don’t seem too good at in the first place, then let them have a shot. Who are they going to hurt?
I think one of the aspects that’s often overlooked by those who oppose all this is that it’s not just about sexual orientation, but about how people feel towards each other and the respect for each other. When all you do is think of the relationships in the light of sexual orientation, then you’re missing the point that just like hetro couples it’s supposed to be about dedication and committment between two people.
Now I know there’s some assbags who might look at a hetro couple and think, “Ya, Hes just getting hitched so he can tap that at will for as long as he wants” (Of course that’s someone who’s never actually been married and has no ideal just how long that “As long as he wants” runs), but for the most part that’s not really in the minds of most people when someone tells them they are going to wed. So why should it be any different with gays?
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One of the largest problems facing the gay community (at least on the male side) is there is no culture of monogamy. Everyone says they want a house with a white picket fence and 2.4 kids, but in actuality their actions and decisions are in direct opposition to this belief.
If gay marriage changes this, then I am all for it. I can count on one hand the number of middle aged gay men I know who I would describe as “happy” or “well adjusted.” The gay community places an inordinate amount of emphasis on youth and beauty (they make straight society look positively accepting in this regard). Because of this profound shallowness, meaningful relationships take a back seat to hedonism.
By the time the man is no longer young or attractive, he is kicked to the curb without the background to form a relationship based on anything other than sex.
The problem with gay marriage has nothing to do with legal rights or morality, it has to do with culture. Marriage as a commitment is easily understood intellectually but much harder to practice when you have no role models.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Flyingnurse, what you describe happens in all kinds of relationships and to all kinds of individuals. You can pull out the word ‘gay’ and substitute the word ‘straight’ and the statement would often apply. Likewise pull out the word ‘male’ and replace with ‘female’ and it would apply.
It’s a common misconception that same gender relationships are only about sex and the next conquest.
My partner and I have been together 10 years. I’m now 49 and he’s 55, although I do look 26.
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FN is correct in regard to the gay male community. The old t-shirt “So many men, so little time” found in San Fransisco reflects this. A number of studies have shown that male gays are particularly promiscuous. So much so that they readily admit that monogmy still exists if your partner agrees to your outside affairs. This does not seem to be the case for Lesbians. While I am sure there are faithful male couples, nonetheless, the prospect of courts swamped with adultery cases is more than possible.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Well, there is that old wisecrack that straight men would be as promiscuous as gay men if they could find enough willing partners . . . . (I think it’s true)
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I think Warren Beatty and Hugh Hefner proved that.
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Mac: I was trying to respond but got moderated. Lord only knows why. I did mention that wonderful disease that starts with an A and ends with an S. Maybe that set off the censors. It was complimentary, not in any way hostile.
Oh well
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It’s pretty clear that posting here is like a walk through a dark cave. You never know what will be monitored. And since the Herald gives no indication of what is prohibited, the probability of a post never seeing the light of day is enormous.
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Is there such a thing as a “Promiscuous” straight male. I’ve always thought most of us were old horn dogs from the time we figured out what that equipment was for….Because it’s in our nature. If we weren’t then we’d definately be up the same tree as the Panda’s….Where we just couldn’t see the sense in all that effort. So we’re made into life long horn dogs to assure we’d populate……And man do we ever. But “Promiscuous”….I really think that generally pertains to females. It’s a long time learned behavior going back to earliest humans. Males could create many childern from different women in short order, but women were limited to mates because they needed a provider and protector in order to have childern. So up to the nasty old 60′s when the birth control pill came around women were pretty much stuck in that roll. Not saying there weren’t women who strayed, but nothing like after the pill.
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Two things….First off…Childern or not, adotption or not…..There’s more than enough childern on the planet the way it is that gay or straight shouldn’t have to actually need the having childern aspect. In fact I applaud those who choose not to continue to over populate the world. So not aligning with the so called American Dream really isn’t all that crucial or even needed today…Less is more in my opinion…
As for the sexual aspect…That’s my point. You don’t basically have a concience thought of a straight couple as a sexual couple because it’s just a given, and that’s not what we think of as a couple. We think of them as being people who care about each other first and formost. My point is that those who are against gay couples can’t seem to get beyond in their own minds that means they are a sexual couple. If people can just accept them as a couple instead of thinking of them in tearms of a sexual couple who’s choice they don’t agree with….Then maybe they can be accepted.
People who want to control matters of the heart regarding others are people who (in my opinion) should consider looking inwards for a while to see what might be missing in there to want to attempt such control….
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Good point tundra.
How many ‘straight’ couples does anyone think of as being a ‘sexual couple’ after the first year or two? ‘
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Here’s a link to an interesting article on the dynamics of gay men couples
http://my.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/45643/monogamy-practice-article-published.pdf
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Is it really a surprise that after a few years they might get wonder lust? Hell in straight relationships after a few years the male often gets wonder lust so naturally two might have a greater tendency. I don’t think they were very clear though about if these are basically considered open relationships mostly of stepping out.
I think there’s such a low percentage of straight couples swinging because of territorial issues. I don’t know if that’s as big of an issue with gays after several years. I mean a guy might not be as in to his ol’ lady anymore, but he sure as hell doesn’t want to let her go around town and spread the love (So to speak) I don’t know if that’s the same with gays….
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Sex is the #1 issue for people that want to swing but companionship is what is important to make a relationship work. You have to really like each other’s company.
That is what I think of when I see a same sex couple. Their private life doesn’t come to my mind. I think about how much they must like each other’s company.
I think that in your situation….since you brought it up…your relationships failed because you always had an exit plan.
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I was responding to Gene’s link, but I really didn’t think it through very well. The link basically stated that after 5 years a lot of gay males start having other partners. I was just wondering if that meant they did that while still together and maybe like an open relationship so to speak, and how the territorial issue might play in that dynamic compared to male female.
I too think it’s not really about two people of the same gender having sex, but about two people who have feelings for each other. That’s the part I think most who oppose gays never seem to consider because they can’t get past the idea that they’re eventually having sex with each other. To me that just seems like such an out dated way to look at it all. I’m glad it’s finally fading away with the younger generations….Much like the big taboo about mixed couples back when I was a kid. Hardly anyone even notices it much any more, but as a kid those who were mixed racial couples had a lot of hurdles.
As for my personal exit stratagy….Nah….They’d eventually realize I was spoiled goods and not a work in progress that could be a “Fixer Upper.” So usually they’d give me a few altimatums and then move on. I guess that might have been a strategy, but in reality it was mostly just unwilling to take that final plunge into being a total “we” when I was pretty used to living life my way….Hey…At least I realized that I’m not the settling down type early in life so any damage done was very minor compared to those who get married and try to settle down only to discover they too aren’t the settling down type…After they’ve started a family and accumulated a lot of bills.
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I’m glad you read the link tb. Not sure those who disliked it did. I think one of the problems has to do with people finding fault with others whose first mode of identity is sexual preference. The hetero world doesn’t work that way. And I remember when in the small towns of ND a “mixed couple” was a Catholic and a Luteran.
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Now that’s funny…..I think you have to be around our ages to appreciate just how funny that once was…
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Perhaps you only know a handful of “happy” or “well-adjusted”, middle-aged, gay males because you
1. Probably don’t know a whole lot of gay people anyway (based on your view)
or
2. A lifetime of being discriminated against has taken a toll on the majority of the ones you DO know.
I am related to and personally know both gay males and females who are in long-term monogamous relationships. The only reason they’re not “married” is because it is not legal… yet.
Gay marriage has EVERYTHING to do with legal rights, by the way, and SHOULD have nothing to do with religious beliefs.
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I ttally agree, but have you ever seen this comedy channel show Keegan and Peel (I think that’s their names)? They did a skit with two gay guys at some capital building the day gay maiage is legal in that state. The one guy is just hapy as hell and sining “We’re getting married….We’re getting married.” And the other guy while being interviewed clearlly looks worried and says something like “Sure I said that, but I never really thought they’d pass it.” And whe the other guy turns away for a minute he takes off. The question being….Will there actually be guys who now treat their gay partners like a lot of guys treat their girlfriends…..Making all kinds of promises about marriage in order to have some early honeymoon activity, but then suddenly they actually can get married and they book? I’m guessing they’d be some…..I mean hey….If guys do that to women I’m guessing there’s those in the gay comunity who’d be assbags too….
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Whoa! Need to proof read again……Big time…
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I personally do not know many people who fall into this “supposed acceptance” of gay marriage. With as few people as I know who oppose it, it makes me wonder just where the [liberal] media is getting its numbers. These reports usually come from a small group of people in a single area. I have yet to be surveyed by the national media on any matter. What about the rest of you?
Our President himself doesn’t seem to know where he stands on the subject as was evidenced by the very short amount of time that passed between his expressed opposition to it and his changing his response to appear as though he does. It is obvious that it is because of the upcoming election and his desire to get votes that he seemed to change his mind over night. Come on, Mr. President, if you are against it as your initial response showed have the courage to stand your ground. Just because you are Democrat does NOT mean you have to agree with it.
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It comes from states like NC that just passed a measure to not accept marriage for anything other than a man and a woman…..And the many other G?OP lead states that either have tried to do the same or are trying. There’s alpparently enough of a push from enough people because this keeps coming up as an important issue.
I know why gays think they want to get married, but I don’t know why they or pretty much anyone else actually feels a need to marry….Other than legal reasons. Otherwise it pretty much udo about nothing. I played house several times over the years, but I looked around and saw the statistics were against mariages lasting in the long run…….Especialy to old road dogs like myself…Guess what….I’ve never lost most of my stuff or have to pay anybody anything….I should be a miserable old guy, but I basically seem far more happy most of the time than family and friends who went the route of family building…Played instant family guy once, but discovered that’s far worse than having your own…..But what the hey….If you think it’s for you straight or gay…All the best to you…You’ll need it…
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I have one suggestion in how to get rid of gays. Quite letting straight people procreate.
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Jack, don’t be foolish. That would never ever happen. Society only tolerates legislation restricting the personal liberties of gay people.
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Actually, that was Saul of Tarsus wish: that all people could be like he was: celibate. Not sure how he thought the religion he created would grow that way.
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You gotta love the view that the bible is the literal word of god, and a guide to moral behavior:
- It’s composition is already cherry picked from a bunch of bronze and iron-age texts.
- It’s full of contradictions.
- Its putative god is only one of thousands that humans have believed in over the centuries.
- Its god is a vindictive and murderous, pestilence-spreading misogynist.
- Those who believe in it commit more murders, have more divorces, and watch more porn!
….and despite that, gay marriage bothers its readers!
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You certainly know that throughout history, Christians have gone in pusuit of those who don’t have the same beliefs. As soon as Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of the empire, the persecuted became the persecutors.
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