Matters at Hand: North Dakota should find away to honor the Sioux
June 17, 2012 at 8:09 am in Grand Forks Herald
Last week North Dakotans accepted the inevitable and voted to retire UND’s Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. The Minneapolis Star-Tribune rather condescendingly congratulated voters on their wisdom.
Well! Thanks for that. Continue Reading
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Wow. People, it is time to move on. There is way too much hot air being thrown around here. Let it go….who cares how or why the name was retired. It was retired and in one year nobody will really care. Wow….lol…..I thought I had no life.
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“The great plaza in front of Engelstad Arena could be designated Sioux Plaza. It already has a spectacular statue of Sitting Bull, the great religious and cultural leader of the Sioux.”
and…
“One of the arguments that native students raised against the nickname and logo was that it prompted stereotypes and encouraged racial slurs. Their arguments convinced the NCAA that the nickname was “hostile and abusive.”
So…I guess you feel strongly about it…both ways.
Wow…you are almost as courageous as Berkeley Bob.
Now that you have won the day by ridding the University of Screw the Sioux of Native American imagery, imagery that was so damaging in its hostility and abusiveness….
NOW….
NOW…you feel that the proper way to honor the Native Americans is to ….
display the exact same images.
AMAZING…in its ignorance.
You, and the rest of the “yes” men…you screwed the Sioux Nation, both those for saving the name…and those against it…you are pathetic.
That is the best I can do…Bob Dylan does it better:
I been double-crossed now for the very last time and now I’m finally free
I kissed goodbye the howling beast on the borderline which separated you from me
You’ll never know the hurt I suffered not the pain I raise above
And I’ll never know the same about you your holiness or your kind of love
And it makes me feel so sorry.
$Idiiot wind blowing through the buttons of our coats
Blowing through the letters that we wrote
$Idiiot wind blowing through the dust upon our shelves
We’re $idiiots babe
It’s a wonder we can even feed ourselves
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Always last week you said you have never attended UND. You can’t not attend one week and then attend the next. You lose credibility that way
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Sometimes….you just make stuff up.
You lose credibility that way…
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Maybe when you leave Arizona and move to ND we will give two bits about your opinion.
Until then….
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Too late Captain. Already there.
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You seem very angry and it seems like you don’t like the way this thing turned out. UND would have been honored to keep the name and wanted to keep it. The NCAA put the decision in the hands of the Native Americans in ND. The collective Sioux people in ND did not give the approval to continue to use the name any longer. It’s as simple as that.
UND does not hate Native Americans and never has. It’s reached out to Native people on many different levels. Your anger has blinded you to that fact. I don’t know who you are but to continue to fan the flames of hatred when the embers are dying out is not very constructive to you, Native American people and UND. UND is an open eductional institution and accepts people of all races. To portray UND as a place that hates Native Americans is just plain wrong and inacurate. It is hurtful to Native American people. Stop it!
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The University of Screw the Sioux under the leadership of Berkeley Bob and the NCAA merely used the Sioux.
In the same manner that Obama is using the plight of Illegal alien people to advance his power, they are opportunistic leeches on society.
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Native American studies is a joke.
Universities should not spend one single dime on these worthless classes.
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Why are Indian Studies classes a joke/worthless?
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Is the Herald censoring the thumbs up check box now?
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Flying, there is no way you can honorable retire the name and symbol after trashing it as vigorously as the State Board , Kelley and O’Keefe have done for the last 5 years. It requires people of HONOR which none of these individuals has. If they had an ounce of honor they would have retired it on October 28th, 2007 when the decision had already been made and took the heat for it. But these weasels chose to blame the Sioux, trouble is the Sioux didn’t co-operate. It would be nice if they enhanced the Native American programs but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I will not be surprised to see them fall by the wayside once the name is gone.
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“If they had an ounce of honor they would have retired it on October 28th, 2007 when the decision had already been made and took the heat for it”
You wont find me arguing with you there. I have said all along the SBHE has failed to do what it is paid for: show leadership.
I would go back farther, to the building of the Ralph. I read all of the SBHE meeting transcripts (you can get them on microfilm/microfiche in Special Collections at the Fritz). One meeting they are for losing the name and the next they are the worlds largest nickname supporters when faced with losing Ralph’s money.
A person who changes views soley on the basis of money is known as either 1. a prostitute 2. Judas.
Always loves to call Kelly et. al. Judas, but he is wrong. Kelly has never been for the name. He was hired under the impression the name was gone, and when it turns out it wasn’t, he was charged with making it disappear.
His views have not changed. He has been consistent since his hire.
The SBHE are the wafflers. They need replaced. Thankfully two or three have done so themselves.
I would still like to see the SBHE become elected. Accountability is always a good thing.
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Flying, I just tried to post a response, but its to close to the truth and the herald won’t post it. Just more of the truth black out. It was mostly in agreement with you.
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That will never happen; not enough enrollment. There are already departments whose students take 6 years to get a degree because of a lack of faculty.
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Answer this one Flyingnurse,
Why should any Native American attend the University of North Dakota?
The name was not retired because of any consideration to the Sioux…it was retired for the MONEY!
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With all do respect Always, if the only reason a person chooses one university over another is a nickname and logo, then they probably are not people the university can’t live without.
You attend one university over another because of the academic programs, cost, social life, etc. Athletics are part of that, but unless you are part of a team, simply one factor among many.
I did not even know what UND was called when I applied. I came for the Aviation program. I never attended a hockey game (or even knew the rules) until I sat next to Parise in math.
If you chose where you went for the name, great, but don’t ask me to act like thats OK. A serious case of misplaced priorities if you ask me.
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its getting kind of sad that you keep name dropping tthe whole ” i sat next to Parise in Math class” thing.
and you know i’m right, you have dropped that line more than a handful of times.
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I went to grade school with Dave Winfield. Problem is, no one under 45 knows who he is.
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Guess you weren’t a baseball fan.
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I have one for you then….Dave Osborn was my History teaching sub at South in 8th grade…..He was one of the original “Purple People Eaters.” My old teacher died and he went for the rest of the year……This was way back when they actually had to work for a living after football….
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Always: to say the Native American view has been ignored in this debate is pure fallacy. These boards, talk radio, the newspaper, the court system, & the state legislature have all heard the harshly divided view among Native Americans over this issue. If Native views were homogenous, this debate would have never taken place.
That is a fact no amount of rationalization or sugar coating can change. If Native Americans in ND spoke with one voice on this issue I would still be tilting at windmills.
Yes, The SL crowd lost; but that is completely different from saying they were ignored.
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Why does everyone in correctly call the Lakota people Sioux? Why do the Lakota people accept this insulting name?
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You’re spitting in the wind with that one….I kept asking that early on in the debate, but nobody wanted to talk about it…..I never could figure how they had claim over a name that really wasn’t theirs in the first place.
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There is no reason to “Honor” them any more than any other group of people.
Standing Rock Elders made it perfectly clear that they didnt want us “Honoring them”
Its time to just drop it and treat them as equal members of society.
No better, no worse.
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Take the Statue at Engelstad Arena and just give it to the Spirit Lake Nation.
After all, they were the only tribe of the two that respected their tribal members enough to hold a vote.
There should be no trace of Sioux logos or imagery at the University, period.
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Yes you are alwayserect, yes you are.
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Given the agreement with the NCAA about native imagery, wouldn’t the statue have to go too?
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The Indian heads in the floors stay so it seems a statue would too.
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Agreed. According to what the papers say no major defacing of the Ralph is necessary. Nature will take its course. When the granite floor is replaced, it will not have the Indian heads. Same with the seat backs, etc.
In other words it is conceivable for them to be there in 2050.
This was not an emotional decision; one made to pay homage to the FS nickname or Ralph. It would simply cost too much.
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Uh, Mount Rushmore is granite.
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Very true. The difference is in the thickness of the skin. Abe Lincoln was designed to last a melennia; the floor at the Ralph: not so much.
Maybe Ralph knew his dream was transient after all
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Um, Gene’s right…AND FUNNY. I’ll say it for ya, Gene. one quarter inch of granite, indoors will last about 1,000 years. tj..Show Gene some love for his sense of humor.
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Jeeze, FN, it’s a milennium. Milennia is plural. We have a lot of work to do on your Latin.
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here’s a hug Gene +
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Why, thankee, ma’am.
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The fact that the Herald used the word “Sioux” instead “Dakota” shows exactly why the front of the REA is the worst place in the entire state of North Dakota to do anything to honor that tribe.
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I think the Herald should investigate who they are suggesting we should honor before writing an article. The SL Reservation is the most corrupt place in the state. How about doing a series of indepth articles about what is actually going on there? Or are we not supposed to talk about that yet?
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Now now TJ, don’t insult the Rez: Always will have a fit. It is the future of America don’t you know? They are the shining light on a hill for the rest of us unwashed heathen to follow.
Always loves the Hollywood idea of what a Native Community should be without any comprehension of what it actually is.
Mato (who actually knows what Rez life is like) is hesitant to join Always in his fantasy.
80% unemployment, 80% alcoholism and drug abuse rate, 20% fetal alcohol syndrome and the supporters wonder why the residents were not lining up at the polls over a nickname and logo?
As I have said many times before: if I believed the nickname and logo would help one Native Child feel better about themselves, or improve the high school graduation rate among Native kids, I would have been sitting next to Eunice in Fargo.
I am not being flippant. I am totally sincere. I am open to any idea that improves the cesspool of hopelessness known as the reservation system.
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Flying, I don’t mean any disrespect, but you really don’t know anything. I only know what I know because I have lived it. I have a son and I had a grandson that the name played a large part in their completing high school. My son is a teacher now and my grandson was planning to return to collage with the number one goal of playing for the Sioux and I know of others who have felt the same. For those that did not like the name they have many of other Universities to go to. But your labeling all reservation under the condition you mention is to totally over look the truth. Many are prosperous. To label the name and logo as part of the reason is absurd, there are two main reason for the current (but temporary) situations on some reservations. First and most important is the elitist telling them how and what to think and driving the pride in who they are out of them and secondly the influx of money in the late 60′s transformed reservation and they no longer have to sell a cow for tribal government trip. But just as the poor person who wins the lottery it takes time to learn how to handle the money, some have committed suicide because of the new problems the money brings. Reservations are learning and UND Fighting Sioux has helped to educate their people, if only they would teach reading, writing and arithmetic instead of trying to teach them how to think like white elitists.
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How did the name help them? And now he does not want to go there because of what white elitist have done? That sounds racist by the way. Now he does not have pride in himself because UND is not named after them? Is someone helping him by explaining that he nor the University are nicknames?
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Mato. You & I will have to agree to disagree. You & your family take great pride in the name. I get that. What you overlook is for every one of you, there is a family with the exact opposite feeling.
When issues are that divisive, it is usually best to let it die a natural death.
As I have said many times, I have two Native friends: one for, one against. We do not discuss it when we are together – other than to laugh at Always, he is a minor celebrity.
Our time together is too rare & too valuable to spend it refighting the civil war.
What is interesting is that neither feels honored by the name. One is completely ambivalent & the other feels demeaned.
The ambivalent one could care less if it stayed or went & showed his frustration with the whole debacle by voting for everything except the name. He left it blank.
The one who felt demeaned did not even bother to vote. Nothing on the ballot made it worth his while to include it in his day.
I had to restrain myself from sending him a FS T Shirt. If you don’t vote you are not allowed to complain.
As for the area: there are many, many reasons they are the way they are (the bad ones). That does not excuse the fact they are this way and entire generations are being lost.
What I have yet to hear from either side is a realistic plan to fix it. Until I do you & I will be on the opposite side. The cost of maintaining the status quo is simply too high.
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The Herald isn’t in the business of investigative reporting. Lord knows, there’d be planty of material to work with in Grand Forks. Their mission is to write PR puff pieces for those who buy advertising.
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tj: I wish I could get you to change your mind about the 11:17 post. This editorial and your comment poked the nurse into his favorite monologue. I’ve tried to convince him that his brutal honesty serves no purpose here, other than to inflame and demean. For a guy who feels the nickname is hostile, he never seems to miss an opportunity to objectively say, “Sioux sck.”
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Alvin: when you see a problem, suggesting it does not exist will not make it go away, it will only make it worse.
I rail on the supporters for their supposed desire to honor Native Americans but their unwillingness to address the real problems these same people face.
Words are nice, but they are meaningless without action.
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In the interest of full disclosure Alvin: when I worked in Northern California during the height of the A$%^S crisis I protested for the closure of the bath houses, against the will of the people I was trying to help.
As a nurse I am required to try and fix things that are broken. Worrying about stepping on toes has to take second place.
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You know I enjoy most of what you write and I understand the hypocrisy of nickname supporters, who likely represented 95% of the population at one time. They love the Fighting Sioux but have no regard for our citizens on the Rez. Sadly, it’s the 5% I feel you are stepping on. I feel you need to be more sensitive to who’s in the room. On this particular subject, you feel the end justifies the means. Since I feel your approach accomplishes no end, I humbly disagree.
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Point taken
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You’re a good sport, flyingnurse. For the record, I click “like” on your comments probably more than anyone, even when you talk to yourself. )
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Totally agree TJ. One only needs to read that http://www.walkingysky.com to wonder where this supposed “honor” and great tradition is. What a shame. Of course, it’s all our fault and never their own for not standing up and saying enough is enough. But that’s the way things are nowadays. Never accept responsibility and blame everyone else for your problems.
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The article writer does not have any idea what he is talking about. The Sioux do not want or need a museum built or plaza named after them for white man to honor them. They do not want or need white men to give them honor or recognize it. They simply have honor from within their own and do not need it granted to them by anyone.
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Right again, Glen. Usually, I can disagree with a Herald editorial and still enjoy it, but this one really misses the mark. Let’s let nature take its course and stop judging how everyone should be acting. As long as Soderstrom and the committee for something or other doesn’t see what everyone elsce with a pulse can see, for years to come, news pieces about the nickname saga will continue. But, these editorials, although well-meaning, just continue to bring out the worst in us. Stop it.
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“North Dakota’s got the money.”
Once again, Jacobs is more than generous with other people’s money. As a good faith gesture and to show his sincerity, why doesn’t he get Forum Communications to pony up the first $500K?
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The plaza @ TCF Bank Stadium @ the UM was paid for by the Shakopee Mystic Lake Mdewahkanton casino money. Apparently they have no problem being honored in an athletic context. Next thing you know Gopher fans will lobby to be renamed “Sioux” now that the name is available. They could get the same deal the Florida Seminoles got from the NCAA. The Mystic Lake Sioux have already endorsed Native images for UM campus athletics use on the plaza. That Big 10 TV contract money is too lucrative for the NCAA to not get a cut of.
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More power too them. Maybe it would help the Sioux/Gophers win a title. They are doing worse than we are.
Spearman: the name is gone. Unless you manage to pass the constitutional amendment requiring its use, it is not coming back. Those are the facts.
There will be no Phoenix rising from the ashes after all of the unwashed heathen who oppose the name realize mistake and march on Bismarck to bring it back.
Rather than dwelling on what is settled, how about planning for the future. Or are you going to be like the guy this week that went to a dudes house and shot him. When asked why, it was over a locker room humiliation that took place 40 years ago.
In some ways that is what everyone’s rants remind me of. Failure to grieve and move on.
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Too many U of M alumni with Gopher decals on their cars to ever see it.
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It would be appropriate if after 82 yrs. from when UND got rid of its Ground Squirrel image the Gophs finally wised up & got rid of their squirrel & became the Sioux since they don’t have a problem with a Sioux themed plaza. They’re slow learners I guess.
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I think the only slow learner is Sid Hartman.
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That’s true Gene.
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In a way I can’t believe the statement “ND should find a way to honor the Sioux”. The Sioux were being honored when UND was using the name. In all the years I have lived in Grand Forks and paid attention to UND and the teams that are a part of it, I have not once known of any incident that dishonored the the Sioux or any manner in which UND or ND were dishonoring the Sioux. I can understand how the word “fighting” being used along with the name Sioux might be negatively received, so maybe simply removing that word would have made a difference. But, as far as I’m concerned, it was an honor to hear “Sioux” each time one of our teams was announced.
If a college team was forced to get rid of their name that was seen as “offensive”, then other teams must also get rid of their names. What about the Indians, Chiefs, Braves, Reds? These are all associated with tribes and/or their related nationalities and skin color. What about the “tomahawk chop”???? That too should be banned from sports. Has the NCAA set a new standard that professional leagues should follow? We’ll see.
By the way, I was born in America and therefore am native American. I don’t belong to a tribe, but because I was born in this country, that does make me NATIVE AMERICAN. I don’t understand how a tribe can be so “offended” at the use of its name when they themselves are almost “ashamed” to call themselves what they really are – Indians (no negative connotation intended).
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I think you already know that no pro team is going to drop a name whose branding value is worth a fortune. The last example I can think of was NBA’s Washinton DC team eliminating “Bullets,” because of the murder rate there. Strange, after the change, the murder rate hasn’t gone down.
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Oops, forgot to add, “Reds” is a shortened form of their original name: Red Stockings.
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Reds is not short for Red Stockings. Not that it really matters in this conversation but just saying. The Red Stockings are the Red Sox now. Cincinnati Reds have always been the Reds. I do not know if they were “honoring” the Color or Native Americans. Interesting fact is that the Reds got kicked out of the American Association for serving beer at games to “honor” the large German population. I know I have honored a lot of Germans while honoring the Sioux while honoring Toshiba by drinking beer while watching hockey on my TV. This really did start of as just pointing out that Reds and Red Stockings are two different teams.
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The original professional team in Cincinnati was known as the Cincinnati Red Stockings. Stockings was dropped from the name around 1890 and the team became known simply as the Reds.
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You are correct sir. I stand corrected. I also was not honoring Germans, the Sioux tribe, or Toshiba by watching UND hockey on TV and drinking beer . In fact UND took away the right to honor the Germans in the dorms a long time ago. I think I got that one right.
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Yes, but “Deutschland über alles” is still the music to the Alma Mater.
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Flyingnurse says (when talking about his Native “friends” both of them):
“The ambivalent one could care less if it stayed or went & showed his frustration with the whole debacle by voting for everything except the name. He left it blank.
The one who felt demeaned did not even bother to vote. Nothing on the ballot made it worth his while to include it in his day.”
That about says it all.
You are completely clueless.
Unfortunately, your naivete’ plays right into the hands of Berkeley Bob and the NCAA.
Not unlike President Obama, coming out with a last minute election year gimmick to garner the Hispanic vote. Berkeley Bob and the NCAA used the Sioux just like Obama is using the illegal alien, to gain and maintain power.
And you play right into it.
Your Native friends are smart enough to realize that they have been used by these liberal opportunistic leeches, and my guess is that would account for their lack of interest in what happens with the name.
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Keep up the good fight Always. God will reward you. I am sure he will.
As for Obama and the Dream Act. I do not think he did it for the hispanic vote. 70% of them were going to vote for him anyway.
He did it to make sure it got done. He is not sure he is going to be re-elected and he has a very definite laundry list of things he wants done before he leaves office.
He got rid of DADT. Gay marriage will be well on its way to being legal (or at least in the Supreme Court), and the Dream Act will either be passed by congress or enacted by fiat.
What I found most interesting, and you could see Hannity and Limbaugh dying at not being able to castigate him for it, was the Republican nominee did not say he would overturn it.
He made noise about wanting congress to act, but when questioned directly, he refused to say he would reverse Obama’s decision.
To me that means it is the Republicans who are after the Hispanic vote, not the Dems.
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“Your Native friends are smart enough to realize that they have been used by these liberal opportunistic leeches, and my guess is that would account for their lack of interest in what happens with the name.”
We went to the Urban Stampede the other night and this came up. The reason neither voted for or against was they were over it. Like I said, one was ambivalent and would not lose any sleep if the name stayed, and the other one is completely opposed.
They did not vote with their silence in reaction to being used by the liberal establishment; they voted with their silence because the issue is more important to old white guys then them, and they were tired of playing into “whitey’s” hands. In this respect they considered pro and con to be the same.
When I asked about SL, they both said, almost in unison “they are whitey too”
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“they are whitey too.”
Uncle Toms…I suppose.
I guess I gave them to much credit, they aren’t that smart.
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flyingnurse:
Ever read a book titled “Neither Wolf Nor Dog” by Kent Nerburn?
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Always: I believe I was clear, my friends feel used by both sides in this debate. They feel that white people on both sides are using Native people to achieve their (the white guy’s goals).
They agree there are Indians on each side of this issue, but that the driving force on each side is an Anglo agenda that does not have Native interests at heart.
In other words they do not think the SL crowd are acting as independent agents. They believe that if there were no white guys pulling the strings the SL crowd would have never come into existence on its own.
Similarly they do not believe the anti nickname crowd have Native people’s interests in the forefront either.
They feel used; like pawns.
Those are their opinions. If you don’t like it take it up with them. They frequent the boards. As I said you are a minor celebrity Always. You make them laugh.
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So….we agree.
Whitey equals liberal elite.
Just like Obama and the illegal aliens….pawns in the game. Sad but true.
But we agree…I see that as progress.
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Nice try Always, but no cigar. Whitey = SL Natives being used by old white guys to forward a personal agenda AND the liberal elite.
Can’t just pay attention to half the equation. You have to look on both sides of the equal sign.
Like I said, keep up the good fight. God will bless you, I am sure of it.
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I know!! We should get some fantastic student athletes and name the teams after the Sioux!
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Maybe Jacobs…The best way to “Honor the Sioux? is for your paper to finally give this crap a rest so it will die down and eventually stop being an issue in the first place…….But I really doubt you can…..The Herald has probably done more to keep this pot stirred than anyone or anything. This is just to juicy to let go of. And you had the nads to talk about no more using the Fighting Sioux name as if that was taking a brave stand…..But then put article after article regardless how minute in here just to keep stiring the pot. You want o honor the Sioux…Then pull the hell out of the damn pot already and let them and the rest of us have some peace on this damn issue….
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Mike Jacobs has been a sly instigator ever since he lived in Brannon Hall in a corner suite with the RA and an Iron Range roommate and a suitemate from New York. Every time his comments created a furor he would would decline to defend his position. He has been and always be a provacateur with no backbone.
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I thought Jacobs got a different job? I want to hear from the new gal.
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Hey, you know the same Mike Jacobs that I do! Well done bill. When Jacobs invests something more than rhetoric in the idea of honoring the Sioux people, I will then commend him on his idea. Other tribes are honored in ND at the Knife River Indian Village, Fort Abraham Lincoln, ND Heritage Center and the Peace Gardens. However, no homage specific to the Sioux people, the larges indigenous population in ND. Great idea Mr. Jacobs, community leader. Now do something about it. It might be controversial or you may face some obstacles. Go ahead and put yourself on the line. I, too, watched you as a student at UND and I never saw you take a stand on anything important when you were BMOC. You have demonstrated that you are a mouthpiece for GF city government, Altru, the Republican Party, the Fargo Forum, etc., etc. When will you fight for the best interests of the people of Grand Forks? Or have lost touch with the people who live here? Or do you even care? Ideas without action or commitment is simply hot air. When nothing changes, nothing changes. And so it goes…..
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When the name Sioux is used, I am referring to the Nakota, Dakota and Lakota tribes. It is so much easier to use a five-letter word. No disrespect is intended, but that is the commonly accepted name used for the above-mentioned tribes.
Alwaysocorrect is adamant about the Sioux being used by UND. That is the exact point of all this debate! The less we “use” the Sioux name in regard to an institution, the less able white elitists can “use” the name for other than honorable purposes. You are arguing so hard for the wrong cause but for the right reason. The reasoning fits both sides. Let the Sioux name out of your disrespectful debate, please. You cannot speak for the feelings of the Sioux. You are just another white man “using” the Sioux name for your own personal agenda. That is the exact reason that some Sioux have objected to the use of THEIR name. If you want to show respect, cease and desist your vile and abusive language in the context of the Sioux nickname debate! It does require some integrity on your part, so man up alwaysocorrect! And so it goes…..
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