After Tuesday’s nickname vote, there is determination to move on
June 13, 2012 at 10:00 am in Grand Forks Herald
The majority for dropping the nickname exceeded 70 percent in Cass, Burleigh and Grand Forks counties and topped 60 percent in most of the rest. The vote on both reservations was for the story to end. But Archie Fool Bear, nickname champion at Standing Rock, and Eunice Davidson, his counterpart at Spirit Lake, insist they will go on with their campaign for an initiated measure to engrave the nickname in the state Constitution. Continue Reading
Every ND county that contains an Indian Reservation voted to retire the nickname yesterday: Spirt Lake: Eddy (67% for), Ramsey (62% for), Wells (62% for), (63% for.) Standing Rock: Sioux (55% for.)
More voters in Fargo then in Grand Forks voted to Retire the Name. Cass (Fargo, 73.6 for; Grand Forks 71.4 for.) Billings County, (Medora: 50.35% against) was the only county to reject the measure by just two votes.
Looks like we had the vote. Move on.
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Also, “people were saying they’re just tired of hearing about it,” which he conceded will be a challenge if the initiated measure campaign continues.
Correct. It is a Catch 22 for the pro nickname crowd. If they attempt a constitutional amendment in Nov they are sure to fail.
If they wait till 2014 to give them time to “re-educate” all of us misinformed nickname opponents, too much time will have passed. The school & the students will have moved on. Any attempt to resurrect the controversy will be met with hostility.
Dear God, please let this mess be over
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Just remember that law passed that won’t let UND choose a new name until 2015. There was probably a reason for that – to leave a “back door” or “loophole” for this to happen. I am not yet convinced that UND wants to move on, regardless of what they are saying. The old saying that actions speak louder that words is accurate. There have been plenty of so called “decisions” and “deadlines” associated with this that were ignored and another attempt followed. Stay tuned.
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THIS following statement is an outright lie: “We don’t have that kind of a resource, which allowed them to tell lies about UND and how it was being ‘hurt,’
What an absolute joke. Your fight is not with UND, but rather the ncaa. That is a FACT, try using them!
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Last year the Supreme Court said money is protected speech. I could not have disagreed more, but since they are the final say: it seems that the opponents simply spoke louder than the supporters.
Since the supporters include the likes of Ralph’s Ghost and his family and his hand picked management team, I am finding it very hard to believe that the supporters were that short of funds.
Could it be the big money supporters have grown tired as well?
Could that be a sign that perhaps it is time to pick up the dead and wounded off the field and move on?
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Mato, tell me what year it was when the UND sued the NCAA? And who won that suit? What were the terms? What was the time frame? What was the result? Tell me again when the UND changed it position from “fighting to save the name (with a law suit)” to “honorably retiring the name” because the terms of the lawsuit were not met on the timely basis. Once you have these facts in order, you will have to apologize to whoever who were chastising. You should also remember that talk like that is a strong reflection on you! An contrary to your statement, everything you said is opinion, not fact!
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Chairman of standing Rock who said “Even if the people bring a petition with 100% in support I will roll it up and throw it in the garbage”
How many times was this man and his supporters reelected following that incident?
We are not tribal members, it is not our place to tell them how to decorate their house. This was Eunice’s main point that everyone on the supporters side conveniently chose to ignore because it did not fit their view of how things should be.
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Mato, so your response to a challenge of your biased and off-based opinionated comments is more questions of irrelevant minutia trivia? Your comments don’t answer the questions that do relate, and yet you bore us with junk that may only concerns you. The lawsuit in question was raised in 2007, the result of which were terms that both sides adhered to and honored. Spirit Lake and Standing Rock had no part in the lawsuit between the NCAA and the UND. Then you mix in some reference about the petition before the SR tribal members, which is a totally different subject. The Kupchell matter and whatever you are talking about is unrelated to original bizarre statements, and I am very sure the respected Mr O’Keefe also believes your are a S.O.B. And that exactly why is it of no use to talk with a guy like you! You obviously have deep issues with racism and other fundamentals, none of which apply to the issue before the UND and the NCAA lawsuit which proves your original statements were off-base, and now I see so disliked your entire response has been hidden! And it is certainly not because others can’t stand the truth. It’s because it’s flat out wrong!
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Mato, can you explain your conclusion that UND would have won the litigation against the NCAA?
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Mato: I have no clue who you are talking to our about.
I still argue that UND was for getting rid of the name before Ralph started construction. It was not until he threatened to take his toys and go home that the SBHE said anything. If it was not for Ralph having a meltdown, the name would have been gone before the turn of the century.
I still laugh when people act like UND or the SBHE deep down want to keep the name and are just looking for an excuse to do so. The paper trail is quite different.
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As I have said before, this is more than a ND issue. Enough Native people and organizations are against the name that I find it reprehensible to not give them their wishes.
If it was one tribe in one state things would be different.
Supporters hate Professor Gagnon at UND. I happen to like him. I spent a very long afternoon soon after starting at UND discussing this issue with him for a paper I was writing. He was very convincing.
I then made several Native friends who were split down the middle.
It became obvious that this issue was more divisive than it was worth. No possible benefit could outweigh the trouble it was causing.
Getting rid of the name was the logical solution.
Reeducation camps went out with Stalin and Pol Pot.
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What I don’t understand is what Archie Fool Bear is saying about being a Sioux. Of course you will always be a Sioux, I don’t think anyone is trying to take that away. It is about a logo change, no more, no less. Get over it already!!!!!!!!!!!
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This group keeps saying that UND was lying about everything but here is another bit of evidence that points out that the Big Sky concerns were real:
RT @DomIzzoWDAY: #BigSky Commish: “We’re relieved to have the vote go the way it did and move forward now with #UND.”
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As Roy Orbison so eloquently sang: “It’s over.”
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“….You never give in to a bully (NCAA).” When is this announcer, Scott Hennen, and other also recognize/acknowlege that it was also so called bully’s (including Native American tribes of the Great Plains and other national organizations)who forced the anti-racism agenda upon the NCAA through years and decades of complaining and making demands to drop tribal images? He is only for certain “American Indians”, the minority of the race and tribe. Why doesn’t he interview the leaders of the opposition? Fairness in broadcasting and of that stuff.
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Because he is not interested in the truth, just saying the most outlandish things possible to increase his ratings. There are several rules in life: you don’t cite wikipedia on your school papers; the government will never do the right thing of its own free will; Rush Limbaugh is a joke; Hennen is so close to Limbaugh’s backside they could apply for a same sex couple marriage license.
Just saying
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you mean a big time capitalist, like you claim to be, you don’t like Limbaugh?
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Can’t stand the man Always. He has the IQ of a Kleenex box and the morals of an addict. A grad student in communication did a study a while back. She took Rush’s stamps on various subjects and watched how they changed over the years. She then graphed those changes with the official position of his Republican masters. You guessed it. Almost 100% correlation.
Rush does not think. He parrots what those who control his oxycodone tell him too. If he had an independent thought I might deem to give him a listen. Hasn’t happened yet.
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You men Hennen is in on this? I thought he was busy running a “partners” scam the type of which sent Jim Bakker to prison.
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We could only be so lucky.
In reality he is a man with very little marketable talent. He has been fired. He is searching for a job.
Walmart is hiring
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I had read in the Herald (or Harold, as you prefer), that he had bought another station and was trying to get “partners” to pony up $1000 each. As I said, this is what Jim And Tammy Faye Bakker did which got them into their legal troubles.
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Unfortunately I am old enough to catch the reference. I read the story too. I basically wrote it off to “if you need 1000 of your closest friends to pony up a few grand each; you don’t own much of anything.
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“…. while Standing Rock members who oppose the nickname presented their own petition, also with more than 1,000 signatures, urging the council to stand by previous resolutions opposing its use.” This petition apparently was lost in the convoluted shuffle which has been the course of this issue. It has only been mentioned at times by a very small number of posters over the duration of this issue, especially recently. Most references were to the first informal petition which expounded the SR tribal members opposition to their own council’s decision. Now the fact has been once again revealed that there was an equal and opposite petition, which actually had a few more votes agreeing with the Council than the first one had opposing it but for all extents and purposes, fairly equal. It was said that some members signed both. Thank you again, Mr Haga, for your astute reporting.
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As I have said numerous times during this debacle: we in ND are loath to letting facts get in the way of a good argument.
On another thread another frequent poster was doing everything in his power to debunk the election results because of the low turn out. First they didn’t get to vote, now not enough of them voted to draw any conclusions.
One might get the idea the integrity of the Area Voices nickname supporters is not what it should be. Intellectual honesty does not seem to be high on their list of attributes.
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I would argue vehemently that 32% turnout is a much more accurate “poll” of the population than the polls taken before the voting based upon much smaller numbers taken at random however valid and reliable. Since this was the highest turnout in 30 years, you would be correct in criticizing anyone who said this turnout was “low” by any stretch of the imagination. Conclusions were clear and cut, which Mr Haga so accurately reports. “Challenge” is an understatement. No ground swell support, no money, no momentum, no strategy; only idle finger shaking about unsubstantiated “lies” and disregarded “fear” and how they feel sorry for themselves challenging the opposition on the victorious side of the issue. Stop the insanity! Repeating similar behaviors and expecting different results in the face of overwhelming odds is just not a very smart approach. There is nothing new to be added to the campaign that will reverse the state’s decision. Nothing! The comprehensive effort, including a state vote, failed! The case against the NCAA was thrown out of court. The people who were suppose to have supported the cause abandoned it! The effort has no financial or political backing. The clash with reality is fast approaching. There is no sling shot for this David powerful enough because the distance between opponents is just too great.
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I think the long drawn out process of this whole thing gave NoDakers the equivalent of jet lag. They just wanted it over.
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Flying, I’d like to tell you something. You said you came here from Arizona by way of other universities. You now say we North Dakotan and you keep coming back here. If you like North Dakota so much, why do you want to change it into where you come from? I respect you for saying you have been opposed to the name and imagery even before the NCAA policy, but I cannot respect your position that only a few Natives should have the say on this issue. Maybe your mother is smarter than you. True, as you say all the tribal governments have spoken against it, but what is also true is that the tribal members have been silenced by those governments. Spirit Lake is the only one to allow the members a voice. What is also true is that there have been numerous studies by independent groups that have found that at least 70% of Native Americans don’t want the names and imagery to change. Does their voice not count?
We did take a shellacking in the recent vote, but whether you like it or not, if it wasn’t for the lies it would have been the other way around. I believe you know that to.
You talk about voter turnout on the reservations, well voter ID’s played a small part but the most tragic and biggest reason I believe can be seen on WDAZ news three weeks after Spirit Lake voted in April 2009 and the state board retired the name and imagery on May 14th, 2009 where a young lady says “Why did they even have us vote if we don’t mean anything” this is the real tragedy you and yours are causing it. As a lifelong resident of North Dakota born in 1944, I am ashamed of my state for the first time.
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Mato: I will give you the same answer I give everyone who claims that the members of SR are disenfranchised by their government. They must like it because they keep reelecting it.
It really is that simple. The nickname opponents were not elected once, but twice during this process.
Tim is happy decertifying every election till he gets one that he approves of, but I am not. Elections, provided there is no fraud, are darn near sacred, and they have consequences.
Obama was elected in response to the dissatisfaction the nation felt with GWB. There were many untoward consequences to the decision to vote that way. Only the most far right wing nut believe that the election was invalid. They accept responsibility for their actions.
Too many supporters do not believe in the sanctity of elections and are more than willing disenfranchise the people they are purporting to support and honor by trying to decertify their choices.
This is not just my opinion. I would invite you to go back in the HARALD (happy Gene) archives and re read the bioptic they did on Eunice a while back. She made it very clear that she was happy with SR results and that it was not her place to interfere.
Her popularity among supporters dropped like a stone after that.
No one on SR was disenfranchised. They asked for the representation they got.
No one prevented them from voting yesterday. They chose to not go to the poles.
There are no victims, just choices.
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Again Mato. I do not agree with how they organize themselves, but it is not my place to comment. That is the limited autonomy they get as a “sovereign nation.” [Very tongue in cheek because I believe they have limited autonomy but nothing that even closely resembles sovereignty.]
They decided how they wanted to be organized and represented. In fact, when someone from the outside tried to sue in Federal court over perceived injustices, they came forward as one to tell the offending outsider to butt out. The case was dismissed.
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Flying, I don’t know where you get your information on Eunice, but I can only laugh at it, I happen to be married to Eunice for 43 years and her supporters have never wavered. She respects the sovereignty of Standing Rock as most of Standing Rock respect Spirit Lakes. That is the Native American way. If you knew anything about Native culture you would know that.
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Just going by the comments in the paper Mato. No one ever said her commitment wavered, just that she did not believe it was her place to tell SR how to conduct their internal politics.
I gained a huge amount of respect for her after that. She accepted their choice even when everyone else wanted to disenfranchise them.
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Mato: Those studies you quote are not nearly as cut and dried as you pretend them to be. Please do not fall into the trap Always did with his Stanford study, going on and on about how it said nicknames were not harmful to Native students until I pulled the PDF down, showed him how he took two sentences out of one paragraph and contradicted everything the authors concluded. Even I was embarrassed for him.
What your studies do show is a large disconnect between Native American activists and tribal leaders and the rank and file.
I find this interesting. I know the democratic tradition is not as ingrained in Native culture, but that does not explain how this disconnect plays out. First off, it is not a 70/30 disconnect like many supporters say. That number was again taken out of context, but it is sizeable.
You have two choices with this information: do you respect their ability to elect their own leaders, even if it does not make any sense to us. Or do you declare them incompetent and place them in an even greater nanny state where we disenfranchise them because they are not smart enough to vote for themselves (read free slaves following the civil war).
I do not know what in their culture or traditions make them vote differently than we do. I do know that a vote has meaning and it is every American’s right to exercise his/her vote as they see fit; for whatever reason they choose.
It is not our place to second guess them.
They vote for who they vote for. They live with the consequences of their decisions.
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Flying, do not put word into my mouth, I have lived, worked, played, drank, fished, married, researched, help with family trees and more with Native people for almost my entire life which will be 68 years next month. I am not Sioux and cannot speak for them but I sure as hell can repeat what they have told me. Overwhelmingly they support the names and imagery.
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Your friends and family do. I have never doubted that. Your generalization that they all do simply does not fit with the facts.
We have always said this is a highly contentious issue. You have SL which voted 70/30 in favor and SR which has produced petitions with equal numbers of signatures going both ways. At best SR is 50/50.
Pine Ridge is on record over and over saying they are opposed. They are the largest group of Sioux in the nation.
Are there supporters on both sides of the issue? Absolutely. Does either side enjoy an overwhelming majority? Not that anyone can show objectively.
I do not doubt you, your friends, your family, and perhaps even most of your tribe are for the name. I only call “BS” when you attempt to generalize to all or even most Sioux. That is patently false.
I am not putting words in your mouth. The election results speak for themselves. Make all the excuses and rationalizations you want, but in the end numbers are numbers.
I honestly thought SL would vote in favor because they had in the past. They did not.
I did not know how SR would go. Now I do
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You do understand that 90% of Standing Rock is in South Dakota, right?
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Gene: what does that have to do with anything? They stop being Sioux and are no longer affected by the name if they live in SD?
Pine Ridge, the largest concentration of Sioux in the US are in SD. They do not get a say because they are not “ND Sioux?”
In the case of using a racially based name, like the Sioux or the Seminoles, you are identifying a people, not a local.
FSU only courted the FL tribes. That lack of vision will come back to bite them
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I know you’re used to directing rejoinders to me, but this time you are responding to Glen.
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I’ve said this before but I’m going to say it again. People that make comments about certain individuals getting jobs at Walmart and McDonald’s should think first about the people that already work at those businesses. Every time I have seen that included in a comment I wonder how they would feel if they were reading through these remarks and came across that.
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That’s the way libertarians think. Insensitive trolls.
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I was not insulting WalMart workers. i was simply pointing out they are hiring. He needs a job. I want to help him get one.
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I know they are hiring, my daughter in law just got picked up there.
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You are stepping on your own feet. I would like to let you off easy but I’m afraid if I do there is a strong chance you will reoffend. You are not alone in this…you have plenty of company.
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Keep up the good work Always. You will be blessed. I am sure of it.
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So, we finally agree on something.
The NCAA through their ignorant policy and bullying manner, have managed to set back relations between Native Americans and the people of North Dakota, at least 100 years.
Good for them, not that they care, one way or the other.
We agree that the NCAA has no regard for Native Americans, and they have managed to drag the University of North Dakota, your alma mater, (not mine, I will not claim them anymore, too embarrassing) into the slime with them.
Wonderful.
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No Always, we do not agree. That is ok. If everyone agreed there would be nothing to talk about.
The sun will rise in the morning, UND will get a new name, ACS will still be locked out, Romney will trip over his tongue, Ron Paul – the only reasonable hope this country has to reverse its downward spiral — will be even further marginalized by a bleach blond anorexic and an oxycodone addict, and Berg will march around the state being measured for his coronation gown. In other words business as usual.
Life goes on
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Absolutely real people were affected. People who felt dishonored and demeaned by the sacred image and all the trouble it caused.
Remember Always there are two sides to this story. If all the Native people were for it, we would not be having this conversation would we?
My guess is this is pretty much a 50/50 split among Natives. SL is 70/30 for; SR is probably 60/40 against. Pine Ridge is at least 60/40 against.
In the end it is a Gordian Knot that will only be solved when it goes away.
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T-shirts for signatures on the SL petition? (As reported today by JAMES MacPHERSON and DAVE KOLPACK , Associated Press, and never before…..) Erich Longie, an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake tribe who has been an outspoken critic against the nickname, said UND T-shirts and other giveaways induced about two-thirds of 1,100 members of that tribe to endorse keeping the name in 2009. He said only 70 people on the Spirit Lake reservation voted Tuesday. “They didn’t have all the free stuff to pass out,” Longie said. “It shows you how much people cared about the vote.” Pulls the rug right out from under the SL entire campaign (one bad apple concept) based upon how the tribal members got their popular vote, substantiating in what is now could be a flawed basis of support of the SL Council’s decision to support the name in a 2009 decision. If the Spirit Lake Council hadn’t supported the name, what course would have followed? In all likelihood, the name would have been retired at least in 2010 with no follow-up laws, lawsuits, repeals, more repeals and convoluted controversy. Certainly, no one would be concerned with the November petition regarding the State’s constitution!
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For the record, there are contradictory reports to Mr Longie’s allegations. Apparently, no evidence of any t-shirt giveaways and no identity of those who may have given them away. More fodder for the divisiveness between the tribal members. Another bit of gassy trivia swelling the carcass of this dead issue.
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This mornings Mpls. Strib editorial congratulated N.D. for being so reasonable about rejecting its ballot questions. Most of the ed. was about the nickname. They said the ill advised pro logo group would continue the fight to the detriment of the state. They failed to mention anything about the fact that it is the Sioux themselves that is this ill advised group. Clearly this was done consciously to keep the issue cloudy.
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Absolutely right spearman, the STRIB has never acknowledged the complexity of the issue, i.e the fact that many indians wanted to keep the name, that they weren’t even involved in negotiations to drop it, that they gave the name in perpetuity to UND during a sacred ceremony in 1969…
This won’t be an issue that people will forget, and it won’t go away nor cease to cause problems for UND.
Taking bets now on how long it will be before some team or league gets fed up with the sioux gear and chants etc. that will be worn as proudly and yelled as loudly as ever at Sioux sporting events!
Or who will be the first to say they won’t play at the Ralph anymore due to the lingering image of the great O’Brien logo.
I think things will go OK next year, and heat up just in time for new nickname discussions prior to 2015.
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Anybody else feel like Bill Murray in the movie Groundhog Day? I open the newspaper (Harold, Harald, Herald) and it’s the same 50 comments from yesterday and the day before. Sadly, I read every one. How about this, three pathetic ideas got totally SPANKED by the voters on Tuesday. I’m so proud of the silent majority of North Dakotans. The angry few remaining
nickname supporters here do not speak for ND. You could be totally irrelevant if you would just man up, move on and stop costing us money.
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Amen!
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Reading over the comments to the article “Fighting Sioux nickname: Harmful, but to whom?”, I was sad to see that all commenters on both sides of this issue have accepted into their vocabulary the big bad R-word that anti-whites have been hammering into white minds (and ONLY into white minds!) relentlessly for 60 years.
Anti-whites (be they white or otherwise) don’t care which side of this issue you are on, because they know they’ve accomplished their purpose when they see all of you using their big bad R-word.
You folks are very lucky that you live in an area where your only racial problem is the name of a sports team! Lol!
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Wow…California huh? We get people from all over the place on these boards. How cool is this?
Love your comment by the way. We are quite sheltered up here.
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It is strange that there are State Parks honoring the likes and morels of Custer but honoring the Sioux in a nickname just isn’t there.
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They could sneak it in. Instead of calling themselves the Fighting Sioux, they could call themselves the Crazy Horses. Who would know?
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