Voters address religious freedom on Measure 3
June 12, 2012 at 4:37 pm in Grand Forks Herald
North Dakota voters weighed in on whether the state needed to bolster religious freedom in Tuesday’s statewide election. As of 9:10 p.m. Tuesday, 50 of 426 precincts had released ballot results with 41 percent voting yes and 59 percent voting no. Continue Reading
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Get over it. The majority rules. Yea Democracy! By the way, none of that stuff is going to happen.
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Captain and GF Resident, can you give me some examples of religious liberties that have been restricted by government? Besides the argument about whether Catholic Organizations will have to provide healthcare coverage that includes contraceptive coverage, I am not aware of any disputes. The fact that several states are considering similar referendums does lend any credibility to the measure, it is simply a function of a well organized effort, primarily by the Catholic Church, to bring this issue to the voters.
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“Liberal groups came in and used scare tactics prior to today’s voting and made people believe this measure was something it is not.”
The only people using scare tactics were the far-right religious uber-zealots, like yourself. You try and put yourselves on pedestals, above the rest of us, yet sink to the depths of dishonesty (lies), innuendos and unsubstantiated rumors to influence voting. You aren’t following the teachings of Christ, you’re nothing more than paranoid hypocrites. Your very response, filled with insulting language towards voters and predictions of doom and gloom, prove this point.
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GF Residence, the arrogance of your comment astounds me. According to you, two out of three North Dakota voters are incapable of independent thought, mislead by scare tactics, deaf, dumb, blind and need to open their ears and eyes to what is happening all around them. Is it possible that maybe some of the “no” voters did understand the issue and simply disagree with your view? Some of the people who voted “no” likely hold the same religious belief as you do and will be sitting in the same pew as you this Sunday. I’ve heard that God protects the righteous, the just and the needy. Fortunately for you, I have also heard that God protects the arrogant, selfish and petty.
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It is bad enough that some churches are preaching politics from the pulpit.
There are also various fundamentalist churches in the region who take the Bible literally with a certain selected absolutism. They want to push their views on everyone else. For example, they think the Bible is a science book, brainwash their children with misinformation and outright lies, and wish to cram their bronze age views of science ignorance into the public classroom. This is a serious problem and hinders science eduction in our country. One only needs to recall Scott Henin and his Flag 1100 advertisements a few years ago regarding “Christ Served Ranch”, a Missouri Synod Lutheran affiliated “Creation Science” camp for kids. Despite advances in science knowledge over the past 500 years, their goal is to obstruct the classroom and treat the Genesis myth stories as science “fact” or as an “alternative” view not to be questioned. I wonder if the Norse or Inuit creation myth stories will be treated with equal justification in their ideal science classroom?
The Establishment Clause in the First Amendment to the Constitution was put there because our founding fathers had great insight and experience with the matter. They were brilliant.
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Do you own stock in ALCOA? First time I have ever seen someone from the religious right acknowledge there is a seperation of church and state.
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may be the defeat of this measure will help the legislature stand up to the North Dakota Family Alliance. (the North Dakota taliban)
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This measure was about folks using religion to step on others. Fortunately the voters of ND saw that.
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Religious Freedom? What was defeated was the “freedom” to ram personal belief’s down the throats of others in the guise of religious freedom. Religious Freedom? Whose religious freedom? Yours? Mine? That hippie looking Wiccan over there? Those unsmiling woman in Wal-Mart, dressed in mostly black with head scarves, chaperoned by men in coverall’s, black hats and beards? Their religious freedom?
Look in the phone book or google churches in any town or city of any size. See all those churches?
If my count is any kind of accurate, Bismarck/Mandan has something like 74 different churches. Fargo has 167 churches. Whose freedom are we talking about here? The straight laced conservative brand where women are to be silent in public, subservient to their fathers and husbands? Or the liberal religions where the women can be ministers and in charge of their church? The kind where birth control is forbidden, or the religions where women are the equal of men, in charge of their own bodies and can decide for themselves how to live their lives without consulting with a male family member first?
This measure deserved to go down in flames. We already have more than enough of other people “religious freedom” interfering with our lives, without this ill though out measure making things worse.
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What a great comment… right on
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I am a Christian and I voted against this.. Why? Because none of the freedoms that I enjoy have been put into jeopardy under the current system.
@GF Reader this is one resident who pulled back the curtain and saw why was behind. It wasn’t religious freedom, it was religious bigotry. Yes I’m a Christian, but I also see the bigotry that is within groups of people who say they believe. Jesus was not a bigot in fact he was far from it.. He said bring unto me all the people and the church has lost sight of that.
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This is a great day and a great victory for those of us who wish not to be subjugated by Sharia Law! The catholic extremists (the types of rick santorum) in ND have been told loud and clear that we will not them the means to make their way into office, destroy the separation of church and state, and rule over us who are of a different or of lesser faith. America is the land of the FREE, not the land of the catholic extremists. Thank you fellow ND voters!
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Right there.. exactly what I talked about in my last post. There is that Bigotry that is SO prevalent with today’s ‘Christians’. While I am a believer I also understand that Freedom of Religion also means Freedom ‘FROM’ religion. It is our goal as Christians to help people understand the unconditional love of Jesus Christ so that they can also know him as their savior. God doesn’t discriminate and neither should you. God is the only one allowed to judge, you are not.
When you see someone who you feel is not someone of faith, do you take the time to actually witness to them? My guess is that you don’t, and this is what is wrong with the Church today. You have become so extremist. I am positive that if Jesus was alive today he would strike down many.. many churches just like he drove the money changers out of the tabernacle.
GF Resident, I will pray for you.. I will pray that you find the true meaning of God and his place in this world. God is about inclusion, not exclusion. God is about love not hate and most of all, he isn’t a Bigot.
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That statement of the contrasting dress of a liberal vs a very conservative religion, is not judgmental, but representative of the point I made. The dress is coincidental to the wide variations there are in religious beliefs. You are distorting what I am saying to try to make it appear I am saying something I am not here.
You want judgmental, read your own words about the lack of dress, which had nothing to do with the subject at hand and is another attempt at distraction from the fallacy that religious liberty in is Jeopardy without this measure.
How can a perfect God make something that is obscene, you know our naughty parts…? Why should we be ashamed of our perfection. After all, we were made in His image. Maybe it is you should rethink your position on the so-called religious liberty.
Also why are you demonizing Planed Parenthood? The have done far more good in women’s health and prenatal care in 70 years, than religion has ever done for women. It came into existence because of the wide spread treatment of women as second class citizen, to provide birth control and later to proved needed health care for women.
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Holy Buckets! If there were more “Christians” like Maverick and Fgores, I might actually be tempted to start going to church again. Thank you both for your intelligent, compassionate, and normal ideas.
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I will be honest. I still consider myself an ex-catholic and converted Lutheran who has turned his back on organized religion. I am Christian, but I do not attend church for the very reasons I listed above.
I have yet to find a church that doesn’t preach politics from the pulpit and where the minister and staff allow this ‘cliqueness’ to occur under God’s roof. I know who my God and savior is, as he is in my life every day. I do not know of the God of these radical organizations who preach intolerance and hate.
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Hell…An old heathen like myself really can’t say much after what the true believers have said here….
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If this had passed, it would have tossed the Constitution in the garbage. Religion would have trumped the constitution. Anyone could have claimed “it’s against my religion” not to do something. They could have hidden behind their religion to discriminate and commit crimes.
If you want a theocracy, them move to Saudi Arabia where religion rules. Thank God the Constitution was saved yesterday by voting this ridiculous measure down.
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GF Resident posted first on this thread by writing:
“I expect that soon we’ll start seeing lawsuits because some churches won’t allow people to head their congregations who live lifestyles that are against the churches’ Biblical teachings. I expect that now government will ignore the separation of church and state by dictating to churches what they can and cannot teach even though what is being taught is Biblical. I expect that now government will mandate that churches cannot prevent someone from pastoring their congregations who are of persuasions that go against the Biblical principles they teach.”
GFR — who is telling you this nonsense? I ask because such government interference hasn’t happened without being stopped — and will not happen without challenge. If such instances occur, then I can pretty much guarantee that organizations like ACLU and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State would go to bat for the churches.
If you don’t believe me, then check out their web sites for the many examples of where they defend religious freedom.
Yes, I know those organizations are much maligned by the religious right — but that’s because it’s far more common to see them combat attempts to erode the establishment clause of the 1st amendment — which was the case with Measure 3.
Religious freedom is alive and well in all parts of the USA, and as a core principle of the USA is defended even by completely non-religious people like me. It would be nice if religious folks like you could reciprocate that support by recognizing THAT both religious clauses of the 1st amendment are crucial American values.
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Holy Common Sense!
North Dakota, you’ve certainly shown by this election you have more sense than most of the states!
I just hope and pray that the citizens of Minnesota will show the same kind of common sense this fall!
Congratulations.
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Well…..You know….West of the Red…..It just sort of comes natural to most of us…….I guess we’ll just have to see what happens east of the Red eh?
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I thought only Canadians said eh…but the crabby Duluthians say it to…interesting.
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GF Resident what did you hopr to acclomplice with this measure? Abolish all churches that didn’t agree with you, jail people who didn’t live the same lifestyle as you, or fine anyone who agreed with Planned Parenthood? My guess is all of the above.
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Could someone tell me why Planned Parenthood would want to have this measure defeated?
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because it is religion that is used to make women 2nd class citizen, subject to the whims of of the father or the husband, priest, minister, etc.
Planned Parenthood, gives women a chance at independence from unplanned pregnancy’s so she is better able to live her life as she chooses, not subject to some male’s whims and wishes.
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So in reality, we not only have class warfare and ethnic warfare in America, but we have gender warfare as well.
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It’s been that way for a long time, but younger women may not be aware of this because there is an illusion of equality and some of the more egregious examples of inequality have gone underground. In corporate boardrooms, women are still represented at about 8% so the glass ceiling is still there as is the wish by conservatives to have women at home “where they belong” presumably birthing and caring for children, cooking and cleaning as well as homeschooling kids. It can be difficult for women to realize that their choice to do these things is often influenced greatly by messages from the pulpit and from right-wing leaders. Among conservatives, the 1950′s are alive and well, but, their attempts to make all people live in their world has been largely unsuccessful.
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“In corporate boardrooms, women are still represented at about 8% so the glass ceiling is still there”
This is really anachronistic feminist twaddle. While there are women CEOs of Hewlitt-Packard, Pepsico, Avon, not to mention Abby Joseph Cohen, Karen Finermann, and Meredith Whitney, recent studies have shown that most women in corporate America do not want to follow the same career path as men, with 60-80 hours a week dedicated to the job which gets you into upper management. They want to take time off and raise a family. They are fully aware of the tradeoff.
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That’s the whole point, Gene. They shouldn’t have to make a tradeoff. Why can men who have children advance in the boardroom and not women? Sure, they make a choice to stay home, but at what cost? Society is losing out on having smart women use their potential.
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Lowrent, fortunately we haven’t reached the point that China did a generation ago. We have ample foodsources for our population, and have no need to employ the kind of controls China did on thier burgeoning populace.
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Where did you get that from? The subject is subjecting religious control over everyone, through law and 2nd class citizenship for women under the religious guise of women and their reproductive rights being subservient to men, even strange men. You can take that however you wish.
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I agree with Fgores….Where the hell did you pull that bassakward logic out of anything either of them said? Making a comparison between the total control the government machine in Cina has over its people to our government that has a great deal of protections and restrictions that would never allow such an action is ludacris at best. Like suddenly talking about gardening tips when the topic is skydiving….Doesn’t make sense
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Grab me a sandwich while you’re out to lunch, lowrent. What are you blubbering about? Makes no sense to me…..
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On one hand you do have a point. A person only has to try to board a plane to find their rights totally trampled on to the point that they virtually have no rights as a cost of flying (Which I’d never do execpt in a very extreme emergency…..Franky I can’t imagine one that is extreme enough to warrant flying……..I refuse to subject myself to a situation where I’m considered guilty because I bought a ticket to fly so now I have to give up my rights to the TSA to do whatever they desire……That goes way beyond the line of freedom and that line is way to far for me to accept)
We’ve also seen times of war when some citizens lost rights for no good reason. But to think that somehow in America we’d see the day that the government could do like China and control reproductive rights….Well then that just might be the day when China is no longer our primary lender, but our over lords. Which seems extremely unlikely don’t you think? Otherwise Americans would never stand by for any such dictates.
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Related note on 1st amendment rights:
I just received a message privately from “solon” who, until recently, had been a regular poster on Area Voices. he said that he was attempting to post the text below, but doubted that it would appear:
“This will be my last post. I have asked that my account be deleted from AV. Few conservative voices are heard or are left. It is mostly liberals talking to each other about how evil conservatives and religious people are. Many express hatred for them, intolerance to them, and the desire to limit their rights. You won’t convince me and you are not bright enough apparently to see how programmed you are by the Left. I will remember my treatment and mete out the same to liberals I meet in real life. I doubt this will get posted, but I figured I would give it one last try. You silenced me here. I will do the same to you when I can. So consider that while you gloat.”"
I don’t know if solon has been censored or not (there have been times when my messages have vanished repeatedly). If he HAS been censored then I strongly disapprove. While I have usually strongly disagreed with solon on almost everything he has posted, I do agree that he should have the freedom to express his views (subject to the published rules of course).
IMO, there is nothing wrong with disagreement so long as it is done agreeably! Indeed, strong debate generally leads to better decision making — and it has great educational value for observers as well as for the debaters.
Thus, I invite others to support the free speech rights of solon, and to join me in asking Area Voices administrators to either quit censoring messages that conform to the published rules — or at least to publicly explain what is going on.
Religious freedom, secular government, and free speech are peas from the same pod IMO — so I’m going to stand up for all of them!
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I don’t understand the process of censorship either on Area Voices. It certainly isn’t fair but life never is.
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Basically you have to watch out when it comes to proper names in most cases. This is in regards to cities, towns, some people, organizations, and some buisness. If something gets sidelined on me I usually go back over it and change anything might have a proper name.
As for the rest there’s certain slang that will also get you sidelined….For example if you refer to the fox part with the other bag reference that will get you sidelined…..So I’m guessing the filters will look for other such slang.
As for this being a bunch of liberals talking to each other……It really depends on the subject. Maybe there’s more on religious topics, but most any other topics (Especially politics) there’s definately a lot of back and forth from libs, cons, Indies, and the apolitical. I think some who consider themselves conservatives see how on such places as fox there’s seldom less than two so called cons on a lib and shout downs instead of facts are the status quo. I think some of those people have a feeling that those on the left will succumb to the right……If only they can force their heart felt opinions on them. And get frustrated when they can’t
I’m not for a lot of censorship, but I’ve been on the sites with little or none so the kids can come out and be vicious, condesending, and totally irrealivant…….No thanks, I’ll take the very mild censorship they have here over that any day.
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I would have to agree with you.. There is very little I ever agreed with Solon on.. However I am adult enough to know that I can’t agree with everyone nor will everyone agree with me.
That is why debate is good, it allows all sides to air their opinion and sometimes.. sometimes you can get others to see your point of view.
I don’t think I would ever buy him a beer in real life, but censorship is wrong in any form. If a newspapers is willing to censor its readers who is to say we won’t allow you to be censored when big brother comes knocking on your door. hmm…
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I agree in not censoring the press, and I agree that they really shouldn’t be censoring the posters for general content, but I think it’s ok to have some ground rules to stick within. The three above the write in box are pretty basic and do keep these boards from going to hell in fast order.
I remember a famous site that tried to have comments after articles just like this board with somewhat the same guideline, but were too overwhelmed to do much with them. Man did they become nothing but a lot of sucker punches left and right. Once in a while I we get someone doing that here, but not nearly as nasty (But I suspect it’s usually the same person who keeps dropping in under a new identity…..Generally the tactics and the argument seem the same, but it’s hard to tell for sure if it’s the same person….Just funny how we get a jump in who sort of sucker punches under a name for a week or two then is never heard from again until another new identity does the exact same thing)
On the other hand there’s tose of us here like you and I who find ourselves on opposit sides of some issues and the same side of others. I think that’s the difference between those who might be so ingrained in one political philosophy or the other that they only see things as left or right, and those who actually study issues, form opinions and debate them. I know I’ve admitted from time to time that someone made a point I hadn’t considered in a debate. I think anyone who really is interested in the discussion rather than proving they or some group they follow is right would do the same.
Then again….This is basically entertainment that really doesn’t amount to anything in the bigger picture. If some education actually happens, then that’s great……If feelings get hurt…….Then that’s probably expecting more from these boards then they’re set up to be…..But I’m a grouchy old guy who’s a bit calloused from years of going head to head about subjects I believe in so maybe I’m not the best one to speak about people getting those things that are just an old memory to me “Feelings” hurt…
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For a while there I was upset they banned Dead Inside. I thought he was judged by his avatar more than his comments. That is until I was able to go back and read a years’ worth of his comments. He got away with alot. I liked the guy though. And I still wish we could hear from him now and then.
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I need to know how to review an individual’s past comments. When I go to a person’s profile, comments used to show up. Now, nothing. Any advice??
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I doubt very much that solon was thrown off the boards unless he violated the three rules. His statement that he was “silenced” and that now he is going to do the same to someone. What does that mean? Gives me the creeps.
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That’s what I thought too….Like maybe someone he thinks he can get away with knocking down or something…..I mean what the hell….These are just opinions and are not meant to be taken with such seriousness. I think it’s more a flare for the drama then anything else. If he doesn’t want to go on the boards…Just stay off…….You don’t need to be taken off….Or maybe he put a bunch of personal info in the profile…(I sure never look at any of that), Then again I’m guessing he’ll be back, but under a new identity to baffle us. But you’re right Realist…If not just a bunch of drama…Then it is creepy
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He wasn’t thrown off, he chose to close his account.
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I bet veryone here remembers how not to long ago the big catholic families. Remember the ones with 6-12 kids in them? Since we do not seem to have these big catholic families anymore one of two things are happening. One catholics quite having sex, which I doubt. Or two they use a lot of birth control which means they are going against their church’s teachings. I vote for the later of the two. Saw these picture one day from in front of a Methodist Church, “God loves nice atheists more than mean Christians”.
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It didn’t take long…My grand parents came from families of 14 and 16 childern…….My mother had three brothers (Pretty sure the calander method was used in that drop) I have one sibling…. My sister has one child…..I none. Quite a drop in a couple generations…
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Makes one go hmmm maybe the churchs, especially the Catholic Church, are trying to use the government to control their flocks since they seem to have lost control of it themselves?
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And Bishop Aquilla is moving–that’s a win, win!
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Haters never last. And you Sandy, are a hater.
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