Nickname supporters vow to fight on even with a loss today
June 12, 2012 at 9:26 am in Grand Forks Herald
Today the Fighting Sioux nickname vote went statewide. But the big question maybe bigger than “yes” or “no” is whether this would be the end of a debate that has roiled, frustrated and wearied people in Grand Forks, the region and far beyond for many years. The answer: Probably not. Continue Reading
It may roll on to November but with a prevailing YES vote today, the UND will be immediately in compliance and the people will have spoken. What are the chances that a reverse result will occur in November? Not very high. By then, the process of continual diminishing interest in the subject after the people have spoken, with the UND in compliance, and with the legal system kicking suits out of court, it will be interesting to see upon what modified basis will the SL effort mount its campaign. The opposition produces overwhelming odds. The immovable force of public resistance requires more strength than one tribe can provide and, as everyone can appreciate, it is doubtful the SL effort will have the financial resources required for what will clearly be a very long, expensive battle. They may say it will go on but there will be a clash with reality that may give the people behind the effort cause to reconsider. Shake hands, and move on!
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“What are the chances that a reverse result will occur in November? Not very high. By then, the process of continual diminishing interest in the subject.”
I agree and hope with all my heart you are correct. While we cannot drive a steak through its heart and kill it, we an let it die on the vine.
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Or with apologies in advance for being so picky, on the hoof as more likely to find a steak.
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Good call. I literally said “steak” or “stake.” 50/50 and as usual I chose wrong.
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I have faith that Al Carlson will find a way to represent the wishes of the majority and reverse this atrocity.
*sarcasm on many levels*
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I agree. 70/30 is simply to close to draw any inferences except to say the people are deeply divided. No, I absolutely would not call those numbers a mandate. They simply are too close for that
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“push for an initiated measure in November to secure the Fighting Sioux nickname in the state Constitution”
Seriously?
They must not think much of their constitution if they’re willing to amend it for a sports team name.
I alway thought a state constitution was a little more important than to be fooled around with for something that trivial.
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“I alway thought a state constitution was a little more important than to be fooled around with for something that trivial.”
I am banking on the fact that most people believe as you do. I hope we are correct.
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If todays vote goes as expected, and the Fighting Sioux name is voted out, then there is only one vote left that could ever possibly bring back the name. That would be if the Standing Rock Council would change their minds and allow a vote of their tribal members. From here on in, that is the only vote that would ever have a possibility of passing and saving the name.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Yes, solidarity among the two relevant tribes was the key leading up to the deadline in 2010 but the terms of the UND’s lawsuit against the NCAA in 2007 has been satisfied accordingly. No one is asking or will ask the SR tribal council to reverse its stand or have a referendum. That door is closed and locked tight. Someone would have to sue the NCAA again. I guess, apparently since double jeopardy does not apply in this case, the UND could, and is probably the only candidate, but what do you think the odds of that happening are? ZERO! So, ideally, yes; realistically, never. The people have had their right to speak today. Let’s see the demographics and see what the results were for Sioux county. That will at least give an indication whether the hypothetical SR referendum would have mattered.
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Even if SR voted tomorrow it would have no meaning. The agreement with the NCAA is long expired. The supporters would have to start from scratch.
UND does not want the name. The SBHE does not want the name, and after today hopefully we will show that the people of ND do not want the name.
There are not many left who do want it, and that list is getting smaller each day.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Au contraire, you are absolutely mistaken. The only result the institutions you mention are watching is compliance…immediate…and none of which are in favor of the name. So again, no one is asking or will ask the SR to organize a referendum. Besides some long term battle to organize a vote for the SR tribe would be inevitable. The state vote today will be their sole source of information. Case closed for all extents and purposes.
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Citori: my point is the agreement is expired. The state of ND, UND, and the SBHE would have to repetition the NCAA.
Could it happen? Absolutely. Would it happen overnight. Absolutely not. We are talking add another year on to this struggle at least.
As for 90% of ND in favor of the name and are just voting yes in order to make the whole thing go away? The percentage was never that high at the height of this controversy. At best 60% -70% were in favor of the name.
There has always been a sizable minority who opposed it. That is why this issue has been a bone of contention since the 1960s.
Everyone forgets that this was discussed long before Ralph ever wrote his famous do it my way or I am taking my toys and going home letter. The survey Kupchella was responding to when he set off the Ralph firestorm was only the latest in a long line of surveys showing people were not happy with the name and sacred image.
If 90% of North Dakotans were really for the name we would have never got this far. We would have told the NCAA to take a hike long ago. 90% is unheard of in politics. That amount of people change the world (that is roughly the amount of Americans in favor of destroying Japan and Germany after Pearl Harbor).
90% is more than the number of white people in favor of slavery in the antebellum south prior to the Civil War. Literally. Look up the numbers.
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Sorry, I only used 90% as a figure of speech. Bad habit of mine. If I had spoken literally, I would have said 2/3 of North Dakotans would agree. But I stand by my original statement. If Standing Rock were to change their mind and allow a vote, the name would return.
By the way, I’m not suggesting anyone will or should approach Standing Rock to do this. The elected Standing Rock council has spoken, and that is good enough for me. My point was simply that IF (and remember, I said IF…) there was a vote and both ND tribes voted to support the name, then the name would come back. There is no way the NCAA would be able to stand the political pressure, 2010 lawsuit settlement or not.
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I agree if that happened now or soon there would be a better than even chance the name would return. The farther away we get from tonight, the less the chance of it ever happening again.
Thank you for your comments
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Sorry but you are reading way to much into this. The majority of students at UND would like to keep the name but are tired of the war and are not willing to pay the huge price of non compliance with the NCAA. You will find that is also the reason the large majority of the general public votes it down for the same reason. In an earlier article in the paper it was indicated that only 7% of those voting to kill the name believed it was hostile and abusive. Most people are just not willing to destroy athletics at UND over this.
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I agree that the average North Dakotan voted to save athletics at UND. I disagree with your assertion that the majority of students were for the name.
I spent the last 10 years there as a student. Every time the students were given a say they voted to retire the name. It has been that way since before construction on the Ralph began.
Most students were not put off by the name, but they recognized that there were those that were & were tired of the controversy.
Students have been ready for this debacle to be over for a very long time, much longer than the average taxpayer. Perhaps because it affected then the most.
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FN your continued assertion that UND students have always wanted to drop the name whenever asked–and that they want to drop the name for reasons of racism today–is just wrong.
There have been several polls that indicated a student interest in keeping the name. One of them right at about the time Ralph said he’d pull his funding. That one was actually cited by UND in it’s decision to keep the name at the time.
I have kid at UND now. Probably my last one, the next in line is attending a different school next year–one I believe I can trust to act honorably and teach the same in their actions– and I did not encourage her to even consider UND.
My UND kid is very active on campus. She has consistently told me she and everyone she knows has never seen any incidents of racism in use of the name on campus. In fact there is a heightened awareness of that so she doubts one would slip by unnoticed and unreported, she says.
She has also told met that most everyone she knows feels the name should be kept, but a few in the last year have thought it’t maybe time to drop it for athletics reasons. A couple of those people are athletes themselves, who again feel they have used the name honorably.
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Tim,
You are very consistent in your assertions, & I admire your willingness to put your money where your mouth is & enroll your children somewhere else, but you are wrong..
Look at the vote totals for the area around UND. Those numbers are not an aberration, they are consistent with past polling on this issue. The same for Grand Forks & the surrounding area.
These numbers are excluding the polls & votes that were taken when I was there – both of which were in favor of dropping the name, as well as the almost yearly votes of the student & faculty senates which were in favor of drooping the name.
Your assertion that the students are for keeping the name is simply false. It may hold an emotional appeal for you, but it is not supported by the facts.
As an aside I have one son in the Army Guard who works at ACS, one at MSUM who rejected UND out of hand – not because of the name but because of his major, and two in HS.
It could very well be that I am the only UND grad in the family. That is alright. I could care less where they go, as long as they go somewhere
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UND does want the name, just not the sanctions, which could cripple the athletics among other things. The way this played out is just plain wrong.
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On this we disagree. That is ok. It is finally over. Now we can get on to more important things, like paving the parking lot behind the Tabula (Archives), and getting wifi in all areas like a normal freaking university.
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It’s because the UND president wants to drop all Native American progams at the university once the name goes. Next the hockey team will be playing in old engalstad arena, The university will lose all it’s history, The tribes of North Dakota will be forgotten to the rest of the country. In 10 years nobody in NCAA or other states will know who the Sioux Nation is or who they are. Sioux name is about Honoring a heritage, the state’s Past, it’s Future.
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I wonder how many voters even understood how this vote was written? it was poorly done. A yes vote should be to keep the name, no to retire it, I wonder how many were confused by it. Did some really know how they voted? there should be a revote done with a better write up.
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Do those that support this racist name understand how ridiculous and abhorrent they look now and how ridiculous and abhorrent they’ll look in the history books?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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No. They still think the sacred image honors those who have repeatedly said they want nothing to do with it.
For every article that brings out the litany of Native groups against the name, there is one article with one group in favor of the name and the supporters call this “a vast majority.”
I am glad I do not have to do their budget. They are perhaps the only people whose math is worse than mine.
Many people do not care one way or the other; they are simply mad at being told what to do by an outside force. They are the ones who will decide this debacle. They do not believe in the name. They could care less about UND or its students. They probably were not even aware of the name before this dust up. They are simply angered at being told what to do. They are not true believers.
If enough of them get over being mad the name will die. If enough of them stay mad, this can go on for a long time.
They are the great middle that all candidates are after. There are not enough true believers on either side to decide this thing.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Well, Bret, the quick answer is no. Look at the demographics of tonight’s vote. No offense intended, but it’s no coincidence that the counties in favor of saving the nickname have one or zero libraries. You can’t make this stuff up.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Notice that I posted that disgusting comment before the results were in. My bad.
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No…but we can see how ridiculous and abhorrent you look.
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Accd. to your logic the people that managed to keep the Seminole name in Florida & the Utes in Utah are also ridiculous.
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They succeeded where you failed. Sour grapes will not change that & you are too old to scream not fair.
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I got moderated & it wasn’t even mean
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Apples & oranges, spearman. The State of Fla. never had their nickname question on the general ballot. Your comment is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Thanks.
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Also the majority of Semonals sp? were never allowed to vote on the issue in Florida. The ones in Oklahoma have strongly opposed the name from the start but are ignored.
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They weren’t allowed to vote @ SR either. That’s as if none were allowed to vote since there had to be results from 2 tribes not one as in Florida. At any rate the Seminole leaders in Florida that agreed to keep the name must, using Alvin’s logic, look ridiculous too as he claims ND supporters do.
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Spearman: it is over. You lost. Move on. Even SL voted against it this go round.
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This is a great day for the University of North Dakota, its students, past, present and future and the majority of the citizens of North Dakota. The nay sayers will probably never accept the fact that the people of North Dakota have spoken and it was not to their liking.
Thank you Alumni Association, Tim O’Keefe and the others that took the lead to have brought this to a conclusion that is in the best interest of UND.
It is most interesting to me as to why, if a constitutional amendment were even considered, it would only focus on UND and not all of the institutions of higher learning in the state?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Always you are the king of misplaced metaphors and out of context references.
Your behavior on internet chat boards is acceptable, no one expects half of what they read to be true.
I just hope you taught your kids/grandkids to be better students, or if not, at least did not help them with their homework. Poor little buggers getting Fs all the time and wondering why.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Hey, flyingnurse: someone disliked your comment. Who could it be? Who could it be?!?
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Education comments from the one who doesn’t know the difference between steak and stake
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Always: Again, remember that in a digital world your words will come back to haunt you. It was you and your kind that kept saying if we got rid of the name Ralph’s ghost would close the arena and it would simply become an eyesore on the north side of campus.
I don’t see the doors locked or boards over the windows.
I said all along the SBHE showed zero backbone (something they are very good at) in the face of Ralph’s gift, knowing they were doing nothing but delaying the inevitable confrontation till after they had retired.
I blame the SBHE more than Ralph. That is why I said the SBHE needs to be elected not appointed.
This whole mess could have been avoided a decade ago, or if you still want the Ralph, last year when Uncle Al decided to get involved. In both instances the SBHE failed.
Are you sure they don’t work for your side Always?
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Naturally, alwayscorrect, anybody who’s anybody is a loser or some other name. Some day, when you look back on your daily rants and see that you are calling the best people on earth these names, you’ll want to apologize. I’ll be listening. You are an island. A sinking island, but, nevertheless….
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Ahoy mates I have arrived and I agree UND should not be playing sporting events in buildings that idolize racist images. You’ve made your beds now its time to lay in them.
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Moderated again. I must be on a no fly list
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You Couldn’t be further off topic and a prime example what should be your third moderation
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It will be very easy to see how Standing Rock in North Dakota feels about this. It is very simple to isolate the voting areas on the reservation to see how they voted. I am sure someone will do just that.
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The ND Secretary of State publishes results by county. You can find it on the grandforksherald.com front page. This will include Sioux County, which holds the same city where the SR tribe maintains its HQ…Ft Yates. I am sure that will be adequate. But I do like the idea of all the voting areas also being reported.
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I do not know about ND, but in AZ you can look up election results by zip code and as far down as precincts. Again, I do not know about ND.
Either way Glen it will not matter. This was not a referendum. It is a statewide election.
My prediction:
If the county/Zip Code/precinct breakdown shows the area around SR voted in favor of keeping the name the sacred image supporters will be posting that everywhere and calling it conclusive proof that the population of SR is in fact for the name.
If the county/zip/precinct breakdown goes the other way, you will not hear a peep. Everyone will still be crying disenfranchisement by SR leadership and pushing for the constitutional amendment in Nov.
Always and his supporters have never been big on integrity. They just want what they want when they want it.
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Are we talking about this website
http://results.sos.nd.gov/resultsPREC.aspx?text=BQ&type=SW&rid=285&cty=43&osn=915&map=CTY
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They went ‘yes’.
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Looks like there’s hope for North Dakota after all!
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As discussed in another thread, when people hear the name “Fighting Sioux” they do not think of the American Indian tribe, they think of UND.
The name has never highlighted anything besides the school. It was not coined to honor anything besides the school.
All of this talk about honoring Native Americans and keeping their accomplishments alive in the collective memory is nonsense.
The name and image were meant to make people think about the school, nothing more, nothing less.
There is no insult to Native Americans by retiring the name because it was never about them to begin with.
That, and as this discussion has shown, most academics and every single major Native American/American Indian group in the country feel that Native Americans are better served by these images disappearing.
All of this honor talk is just a lame excuse for supporters to try and keep their sacred image.
It is about as sincere as a politician shaking your hand, kissing your baby, and telling you they feel your pain.
They don’t and neither do the nickname supporters.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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flyingnurse said:
“when people hear the name “Fighting Sioux” they do not think of the American Indian tribe,
It was not coined to honor anything besides the school.”
I gotta tell you, to an outsider like me, this whole thing just seems really bizarre.
When did the people of North Dakota decide that the Fighting Sioux was an honorable thing? Certainly not while they were still fighting. I guess the ‘fighting’ part became honorable after they were all safely herded onto reservations.
And why would you name a team made up of Anglo boys, Fighting Sioux? I could understand it if the majority of the team was of Sioux descent but…not only was there not one Sioux team member, there wasn’t even one person of Sioux heritage in the whole school.
You can bet that if any of those Fighting Sioux team members had ever actually been mistaken for a real Sioux, they would have been totally booty hurt by it.
I can’t believe that any of the name supporters actually thought they could make people believe that the name was to honor the Sioux people.
Maybe they could show how much they honor the Sioux people and their heritage by helping to create adequate housing on the reservation and helping them get a school on the rez that’s actually functional. THAT would be an excellent way to show how much they honor the Sioux people. Much more helpful than a sports team named after them.
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Did you ever attend a UND home sporting event?
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Many many many in all sports, not just hockey. Proudly wearing my UND hoodie without a sacred image in sight. You would not believe how hard it was to find a UND only hoodie in 2004. The kids now a days don’t know how easy they have it
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Sick and tired of you not being moderated.
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Mission accomplished
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I have said the exact same thing over & over.
My new mantra: In ND we never let facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.
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And why would you name a team made up of Anglo boys, Fighting Sioux? I could understand it if the majority of the team was of Sioux descent but…not only was there not one Sioux team member, there wasn’t even one person of Sioux heritage in the whole school.
So I guess none of the students of Sioux enrollment are “real Sioux”?
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His facts were slightly off but his point is still valid. UND Native enrollment is somewhere around 3% – 5% of the student population. That is better than most schools in the country but hardly anything to crow about.
These horribly low numbers are inspire of all of the outreach & programs that exist to help Native students attend & graduate. Think of what they would be without those programs.
The main problem is those cesspools of hopelessness known as reservations work to keep their people enslaved. They do not value education & discourage their children from leaving.
I am convinced as long as they remain there will be very little change. They are he Native American version of inner city housing projects.
95% – 97% of UND students are non Native. His facts were wrong but his sentiment correct
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Tere wasn’t when the name was chosen. All students at UND knew about Indians was that they were bad and that was learned from movies and dime store novels at the time.
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Glen said:
“So I guess none of the students of Sioux enrollment are “real Sioux”?”
Sorry to be so late with a response. I couldn’t find the article/comments again until today.
I was speaking of the team make-up and class enrollment in 1930, when the team name was changed from Flickertails to Sioux.
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Come now Always you are getting desperate. Since when did one tribe in one state become a national organization.
I never said every American Indian tribe or organization was against the name, only all the big ones.
If you want to remain Sioux specific, the largest concentration of Sioux Indians in the United States are against the name.
Don’t they count Always, or only those “good Indians” that agree with you?
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Interesting…all the “big ones” are against the name.
So now..when it fits your agenda…majority rules…is that it?
And, wouldn’t it be nice to know how all these “big” Native Americans feel about the REASON all your heroes are advocating getting rid of the name?
I just bet they would be thrilled to find out that their concerns really don’t matter…it is all about the MONEY.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Always you are just being silly again. My position has not changed. I have been against the name since around 2004. Even if SR voted in favor I would be against it.
As for majority rules, I have pointed out all the biggies have been against the name for the last 6 months.
Did you just start hearing?
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Alwayserect I have told you before to turn off Fox news while you are typing. Your brain can not handle all the self righteousness at the same time. I can not see how you are so for American Indians and in the same argument make passive aggressive statements against African American.
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Always: calmate, calmate. You are on the wrong side of history on this one. You always have been (pun intended).
Let it go.
There will be more issues you can get crazy over.
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A good sport bows out gracefully.
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When more people vote against you than for you, it is commonly referred to as losing
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Always… Your statements are outlandish. I can’t tell if you are just that foolish or a ill-mannered internet troll.
If foolish, the problem with creeps like you is that you get in the way of the rest of us who want to move on and address important issues. You are the absolute worst kind of person. No argument, statistic, fact, study or proof will convince you about how absolutely wrong you are. You are a weed. You suck up the oxygen, and drown out the sunlight.
If you are just a troll, which I just hope you are, well then, objective completed.
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Bush and another president both lost a popular vote but won the election
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North Dakota does not have an electoral college & Bush was an embarrassment & failure who led the country into two costly & unsinkable wars.
If Bush is your argument I am in favor of Changing the constitution & getting rid of the electoral college.
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Thanks for suggesting your definition, but I’ll stick to the definition where the person (or vote) gets less votes to be the “loser”. And it wasn’t even close. I had predicted 60-40.
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Not true alwayserect. You are a huge loser in this. All the time and energy making up lies is a big investment for you. And you lost. You lost big. And you are not a good sport in any sense. So using you as facts Loser=Bad Sport
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Sioux County, Standing Rock HQ in Fort Yates, YES leading, 53%-46%….includes reports from all the county’s precincts. All three precincts in Ft Yates have YES leading. Voting very light (343 votes).
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More than the % it is the raw numbers that depress me. SR low turnout is not a surprise. They have always said they have bigger fish to fry.
The GF mayor race is inexcusable. Less than 5000 people out of a city of 55,000. That is 9% of the population.
Our country is surely on a downhill trajectory.
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very good point regarding voter turnout! i voted this afternoon and the place was a ghost town. sad…
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that is to say, i voted at the north-side polling location in grand forks.
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More like 20% since only about 40,000, maybe less, eligible to vote. Normal nationwide for a summer vote. One more example of your usual distortion of reality. How about a Ph.D. @ Oral Roberts U.
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After 80% of the precincts reported, only one county, Billings, with a NO lead…by two votes. 24% of the total voting population voting.
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Benson and Eddy Counties, primary counties of the SL tribe, mirrored the state’s overall voting record…1,194 votes. Even in Ft Totten, with two precincts, the YES vote prevailed in each. Ouch!
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Nixon’s silent majority did not turn out to support the name or image. 70/30 overall with even the reservations most strongly in favor of the name voting to retire.
Could it be the “vast majority” is not so vast after all?
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The vast majority didn’t even vote just under 1/3 showed up and voted.
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So, are you implying that:
If all voters don’t show up, that “it shouldn’t count?”
and/or
That all of those who did not vote were supporters of the nickname?
I would suggest to you that you take a deep breath and say to yourself that “it’s over”. Even if the vote was 51.5 to 49.5, it would still be over. But, this was a landslide. Move on. Everyone else has. (or just about everyone else).
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Scooter don’t put words in my mouth. I simply stated that a vast majority didn’t even vote. I made no comment on the validity of the election no was I trying to imply one.
It’s simply sad that a majority of the population can’t be bothered to do something people have given their lives for.
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I am not trying to be rude, but isn’t that a tad dramatic? Given their lives for? Even dedicated their lives too would be over the top.
We are talking a nickname here. I think we need to keep this in perspective.
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So those are the apathetic voters to whom this issue isn’t an issue.. Which are going to be the same people who didn’t write Al Carlsons office in outrage over the name and logo issue. This still means the majority of the people in this state really don’t care and the original law should never have been passed in the first place.
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Recall Uncle Al. It does a body good
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The losing side always implies hat the true feelings of the electorate are different than that shown at the ballot box. Just more post election rationalization.
I agree that 1/4 to 1/3 of the voting population deciding is abhorrent. That said, if 2/3 of the population are willing to be mindless sheep, so be it. They have no one but themselves to blame.
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There is absolutely no way you can claim the reservations were in favor FN when fewer standing rock members turned out to vote than signed the petition to KEEP the name.
That turnout in fact is very telling. Could it be they felt the issue was already resolved?
In 1969!
And does anyone have precinct info for the county that includes Spirit Lake? I believe that there are quite a few non-indians in that county. Hard to claim a county vote reflects the band vote if so.
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Tim: I would refer you to an earlier thread where I said that if the counties surrounding the Rez voted to keep the name you and Always would be announcing it from the rooftops & claiming it was absolute proof that SR is in favor of keeping the name.
If they voted against the name, you would ignore the results, continue to claim disenfranchisement, & continue as if the vote never took place.
I rebuke you publically for your lack of integrity. You have once again proven you are only interested in a vote if it goes your way. A vote contrary to your stance simply must not be allowed.
I never knew you were such a fan of North Korea style politics.
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I guess the X-Factor is will gaining the November election ballot attract more of the other 67.2% to have a voice? Or has the precedent been set that only approx 1/3 of the voters cared one way or the other. Now that the State is clearly, county by county, not interested or more in favor of dropping the name, is the second petition even worth pursuing given the inevitable negative outcome? No doubt, the dramatic results on Tuesday set back the effort to prolong this defeated issue.
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Because the vast majority of people don’t believe the use of the nickname was racist thus rejecting the NCAA’s demand, I can see a significant # of people signing the petition.
I am not sure that’s the way to go with the issue, but I see that being a real possibility.
The only certainty here is the issue is not dead, people won’t forget, the won’t stop wearing their gear and shouting Sioux chants.
And UND has been forever shamed by their actions, taken not to resolve the core issue of racism–they continue to assert it’s use was not racist–but for athletics greed.
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Tim,
I have always agreed with you that this issue is about race. I believe the name and sacred image are hostile and abusive, and you believe with enough “re-education” I will see the errors of my ways and come over to the dark side.
In the end the majority of the state disagreed with both of us. They could care less about the race issue, it does not affect their daily lives. In the end the sanctions and money ruled the day.
I am a dyed in the wool capitalist so I should not find this surprising or even disturbing. I just wish we could have kept the discussion where it belonged.
Race has been and will be one of the great dividers among people. We will never solve it. That said, it does not mean we should not try.
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Another surprising result is the fact that Cass County lead the state in both total number of YES votes, 24,143, and the highest percentage of YES votes with 73.6%. Obviously with the population advantage, the former stat makes sense but you might think at least the GF County (or even one of the lower populated counties for %), might have first both categories. So much for the anti-UND element associated with Fargo, but still of the 8,660 who did vote NO, you’d have to expect some of them did so out of rivalry!
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Youdontknowme: even the most outrageous fans have to have noticed the Cass County vote. The vast majority has quietly taken this in and heard the plea of UND. It proves to me how
empty and irrelevant the loud, trash talking UND/NDSU fans really are. This is a great day for our sense of COMMUNITY. I’ve let this message board paint a picture of the North Dakota
voter. How ridiculous of me. I’ve never been so happy to be wrong. YIPPEEEE!
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Who will issue a demolition permit to do that?
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For the last six months nickname supporters have been talking about the ghost of Ralph, his family, & his hand picked management team closing the place up if the name is retired.
This is the second time in one year the name has been retired & the doors are still open. You can go to the gift shop as we speak $ stock up on your FS gear.
Idle threats & empty promises.
Let’s move on. Now maybe we can get back to honoring Native Americans in a more appropriate way, like raising high school & college graduation rates.
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Voters have no choice given the NCAA sanctions and that’s the only reason this vote turned out the way it did. This was NOT a referendum on whether the logo was hostile and abusive, or whether to agree or not with the NCAA’s position. It was a vote to decide how UND should ultimately respond to the very real sanctions levied by the NCAA. That was the message of the alumni association, coaches, and other interested lobbies. North Dakotans as a whole are pragmatic, and this vote is a reflection of that.
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Agreed. You are correct.
I personally believe the name & sacred image to be hostile, abusive, & patently racist. I have said so many times in many forums; under my real name as well as my area voices pseudonym.
I am glad it is gone.
I appreciate that others feel differently.
I am glad that what was my final year at UND (unless I go back for my PhD) was the year the name was retired.
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I for one hope the nickname supporters wait till 2014 to “re-educate” the unwashed masses. By then the name & this controversy will have faded into insignificance.
We will be well on our way to choosing a new name, and a new generation of UND students will be making the university their own – without the imagery.
BTW is it just me? Am I the only one who thought of the Killing Fields & the Communist “re-education” camps when the nickname supporters used that phrase?
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I still say, negotiate a partnership with the Soo Line Railroad, create a feisty-looking locomotive as a logo, and change the name to the “Fighting Soo.” Everybody wins!
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Nickname supporters got what they wanted… a vote from standing rock. Over and over people asked for a vote and it was denied by the coucil. Over and over people called this measure important for the nick name because you can look at standing rock’s result and it will tell you that their people support the nickname. Guess what it is not an important issue to this tribe and I will tell you why. 1000 people signed the petition and only 1/3 of that number showed up and voted to retire the nickname. You supporters got your all important standing rock vote and guess what you were wrong all alongm
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Tim,
Are you implying there was voter fraud? Did someone prevent these people from voting?
Did it cross your mind that since the majority of the tribe oppose the name they really could not be bothered to vote on something they had already voted on twice before, in their local tribal elections?
I have never met someone so willing to disrespect & devalue another person’s vote before. You are truly amazing, & frightening.
You believe elections are valid only when they go your way. I think it is appropriate to start referring to you as comrade
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We have been saying much the same thing, but the sacred image trolls are out doing their thing same as before.
Always an excuse for their failures, always another rationalization that it is not their fault & that the results don’t really mean what everyone thinks they do.
I guess taking responsibility for your actions or accepting that you lost a contentious campaign were never part of their upbringing.
They remind me of the people I met in the south who still think the Civil War is going on & they are winning. Just one more vote & all the African Americans & other undesirables will be back in their place & the world will once again be as it should
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Tim, everyone on the standing rock had the chance to have their voice heard! If this issue was important to standing rock people would have gone out and voted and than made sure their neighbors did the same. The people who found this issue important voted to retire the nickname. You can’t. Make someone vote if they do not want to. Their voice has been heard and they want this nickname retired! End of story!
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Not only SR voted to retire the name but so did SL. Could it be that:
1. Support for the sacred image is not as deep as everyone once thought
2. Even those Natives who support the nickname & logo realize they have reached the point of diminishing returns & the battle is no longer worth the time & treasure it takes to fight it
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Or could it be the real truth, FN? That like most of us, the majority of the members of the SR and SL tribes felt that the name wasn’t hostile or abusive, but given the current situation it’s in the best interest of UND to retire the name, join the Big Sky, play Minnesota and Wisconsin in hockey, and move on.
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I refer you to my statement above which said basically the same thing.
I think the name and logo are hostile, abusive, and racist. Most North Dakotans could care less one way or the other, they just want it to go away.
Even those who were supporters realize they are at the point of diminishing returns.
Always wants to fight on until the last man. Most ND are a tad more practical than that.
I wish this argument had stayed on the hostile and abusive level, because like Tim I believe it was an issue never solved. Our difference is he thought it was not and I thought it was.
Either way, I am glad it is over and I am looking forward to concentrating on matters of more substance. The state is at a crossroads, especially out west. Cartoon characters and sports teams are the least of our worries.
New colleges and universities take years to build. Dickinson could easily eclipse Grand Forks in terms of population in the next 5 years. What about their infrastructure? Who is going to educate the kids?
Is it fair to expect the kids of the oil workers to go to a Community College or travel to the other end of the state for a decent sized school? What plans does the SBHE have to expand Dickinson State to meet the demand?
We have many many problems to solve. Lets get to it.
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I sincerely hope all of the nickname supporters who swore they would never attend another UND sporting event if the name & sacred image were retired carry through with their promises. I want decent seats. I am tired of being in the nosebleeds.
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At 1130pm last night, UND President Kelly sent out a statement thanking everyone for “allowing the University to move forward.” It was expected but it still stung. The body wasn’t even cold yet.
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What? Over? Did you say “over”? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
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Outstanding! Lets see how many on the board are either old enough or hip enough to catch the reference.
Very good KP
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I am glad it is over and I am looking forward to concentrating on matters of more substance. The state is at a crossroads, especially out west. Logos and sports teams are the least of our worries.
New colleges and universities take years to build. Dickinson could easily eclipse Grand Forks in terms of population in the next 5 years. What about their infrastructure? Who is going to educate the kids?
Is it fair to expect the kids of the oil workers to go to a Community College or travel to the other side of the state for a decent sized school? What plans does the SBHE have to expand Dickinson State to meet the demand?
We have many many problems to solve. Lets get to it.
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Standing Rock isn’t a democracy and will never vote on the issue (note the low turnout at the polls in the county they are in). They’ve had thier chance and a non-vote is the same as a no vote. Standing Rock and Spirit Lake might as well be on different planets. The Native American people have spoken and they did not support the use of the name. It’s over. It’s not about Native Americans anymore. It’s about our fine University of North Dakota. Long may it run!
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33% turnout is the highest in over 30 years for such a primary, driven by Measure #4 and the Property Tax measure.
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Flyingnurse, I have a question. If both Standing Rock and Spirit Lake had come out in favor of keeping the nickname before the 2010 deadline of the lawsuit, would you have supported keeping the name? Or would you still have felt that it offended some (although not a majority) so it should be retired anyway?
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I would still have been for its retirement. This is not just a ND issue. Every single major Native American group is on the record against Indian mascots. They are consistent. Us, FSU, Atlanta Braves, Chicago Blackhawks; all of them.
I would have been for losing the name but realized it was not going to happen anytime soon.
FSU (Seminoles) will be the next domino to tumble. Under their agreement with the Seminoles, the tribe controls the imagery. There is a small but vocal minority that wants the name gone. As an earlier poster stated, the Seminole tribe in OK has always been opposed to the name.
I have not heard a word about IL, but then again I have not been looking.
The pro teams will be tougher. Most high schools are already moving away.
Much like African American themed stereotypes in commerce, these images will slowly go away. The tide of history will not be turned back.
It won’t happen overnight, but it will happen.
There was a story today about Southern Baptists (I am Baptist) electing their first African American president. The Southern Baptists are just what the name implies, a group begun before the Civil War. They have fought abolition, desegregation and civil rights straight down the line. If they can join the rest of the world in the 21 century, I see no reason why this change will take place as well.
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Just to clarify in case it is not clear….sorry if it is….but regarding the Pro teams. the basis for their use of much more flagrant example of tribal imagery is the fact they are private corporations. They can do what they want until the fans and spectators and other sources of revenue streams begin boycotting the games. The bottom line is the judge and jury. Now, as in the case of the Washington Bullets, a conscientious ownership group may take the initiative based upon clear social ramifications of a name, and opt to change it. In the WB case, we all know they changed to the Wizards. Many requests (protests) have been made to the Cleveland ownership but they held firm. I suppose you can throw the Atlanta Braves on that pile too. The Tampa Bay Devil Rays changed to The Rays I believe for a similar reason….Devil is negative. Not so for the NJ Devils though.
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That’s where we will have to agree to disagree, then. Because my only reason for voting yes on this measure was that Standing Rock had said they wanted the name retired. Obviously then you are also in favor of high school teams such as the Four Winds Indians and the Standing Rock Warriors needing to change their nicknames as well?
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Where did you get that? As I said, most High School teams have retired Indian names already.
As for Tribal Schools we have discussed that previously. They get a pass. It is their culture. As I stated earlier: a white guy telling them what is and what is not appropriate for their culture. That was the entire basis of the Indian School movement and why we have Tribal Schools to begin with (the tribes wanted to be in charge of their own socialization).
Is it a double standard, sure. That said, just because they get to use it does not mean we do. We are anglo. We can be Arians or Crackers or Cobblers. We cannot lay claim to Sioux, Chiefs, Warriors, or Redmen.
I do not believe in Indian names for tribal schools but I do not get a vote. I do not believe one African American should call another African American the N word either, but it is not my place to say.
If you want to “honor” and help the Sioux continue their culture, you have to accept they are going to do things in their interest not yours.
As I detailed before, most tribal colleges do not use Indian names. Many reservation high schools do, but even that is changing.
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I’m just thinking you draw a pretty thin line with your logic.
To quote you, “As for Tribal Schools we have discussed that previously. They get a pass. It is their culture. As I stated earlier: a white guy telling them what is and what is not appropriate for their culture.”
But, if both tribes had voted to keep the Sioux name, and if UND got rid of it anyway, wouldn’t that have been yet another example of a white guy telling Natives what is appropriate for their culture?
I guess that is my point, and why I assumed that based on your logic, tribal schools should not use those types of nicknames either.
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Go Sioux
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‘Eunice Davidson, an enrolled member of the Spirit Lake tribe and member of the committee to save the nickname, was too devastated to talk about the result, her husband Dave Davidson said.’
From the Devils Lake Journal, June 13, 2012.
Mrs. Davidson is a fine, remarkable lady.
Please, channel some of the compassion for the UND football team to the Spirit Lake Sioux people. They are bitterly wounded.
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