Anoka County vote jeopardizes Northern Lights Express
June 12, 2012 at 7:00 pm in Duluth News Tribune
The Anoka County Regional Rail Authority voted Tuesday to pull out of the Northern Lights Express alliance, a move one Anoka County official said could kill the Duluth-Minneapolis passenger rail project. Continue Reading
You would think these NLX dreamers would have gotten the message last year when funding for high speed rail was killed in a Congressional bi-partisan transportation bill signed by Obama last year. Duluth needs to buy a clue and realize this kind of funding is not readily available when the federal government (that’s me and you by the way) are $16 trillion in the hole. Duluth’s continual support of $90,000 or so into the empty pit known as NLX needs to become a campaign issue the next time city council seats are up for grabs. I’m compelled to say the obvious for those that just don’t get it – under a Republican controlled House, Senate or Presidency high speed rail is completely dead.
Congratulations to Anoka for using common sense and ending the madness!
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You can’t kill something that doesn’t exist. This thing never has and never will be more than a pipe dream. Let it go and spend the money where it’s much, much more needed right now.
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“…spend the money…” What money? Let’s eliminate the debt before we think that we have any money to spend on anything.
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Just because a passenger rail system works in Europe, it doesn’t mean it’s going to work here.
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This also will stop another form of “PipeLine” for the Drug Dealers by getting rid of the NLX.
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Not the best journalism, whether by the St P Pioneer Press or the DNT (if article was edited for brevity) BECAUSE I would like clarification on what Mr Look was quoted when he said he didn’t “want to get into another project with unproven ridership and basically get in another highly subsidized deal….”
I am not convinced the numbers are there to support it and the Northstar is neither high speed or commuter. How is it going to work?
The alliance ought to go back to the drawing board and re-think Northstar.
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Good. Existing highways and byways provide ample opportunity for travel to and from twin cities.
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“Within a few years of operation, the service is required to be self-sufficient with no taxpayer subsidy,”
Show me a single high speed line that doesn’t require some sort of tax payer subsidy. If this can’t be done, why are we still pouring millions into a “study”? No wonder Ken Buhler had a scowl on his face when I passed him this morning! Finally, sanity prevails!
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Even the current bus line set up that runs throughout the entire metro area of the twin cities, isn`t self supporting. And that ridership is massive.
If we all remember back, the streetcars were removed for a bus line under the same pretense, and the then after established….sold to the cities by way of a joint venture financed by the taxpayers called the Metro Transit athority or MTC.
I don`t know of one mass-transit or rail line transit operation that isn`t taxpayer funded in the end.
But if there is, please enlighten me…….
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We are not on the East Coast…..
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Only one of those corridors pays for itself, the NY to DC corridor. All the others require heavy subsidies. How many tens of thousands of riders a day do these routes have, and yet they still don’t pay for themselves.
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Hugh J …….Good point! Has ANYONE witnessed a project even CLOSE to this magnitude….that EVER MADE any money…..and I mean from start-up to the time it eventually closed down……due to expenses being higher than revenue…….and remember, GOVERNMENT is involved….and that usually is a sure sign of a guaranteed death? There just is NOT the population base in Northeastern Minnesota to support this boon-doggle…….EVEN AFTER the Federal Gov’t has funded this this farce to the tune of 80% ( approx 800 million $ ) ….and of course we all know where the Fed get’s it’s money……from all of us …….DOESN’T ANYBODY EVER….EVER learn….at this end of the world??? If there is anyone……few and far between! SHEEEESH!!!
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and I can get on or off those highways at my own convenience, travel them in my own car, and do so cheaper than a train. Those same highways were paid for with gas taxes, AKA, user fees. The trains will be subsidized by people NOT using them.
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“Total highway funding by all units of government reached $128.5 billion 2000, a 222.5% increase compared to 1980. At 63.0%, highway-user fees make up the largest share of revenues used to fund highways. When compared to the 56.9% in 1980, the present share has slightly increased. The General Fund share of highway funding has decreased from 21.0% in 1980 to 13.3% in 2000. Other taxes, investment income and bond proceeds account for 23.7% of the total highway funding as compared to 22.2% in 1980.” Source: Federal Highway Administration, Office of Highway Policy Information.
So less than one dollar in seven spent on these highways comes from the general fund which is partially replenished by companies and workers in the highway fuel business via their income taxes.
I like passenger railroads, but they just don’t fit for most of America or that’s what we’d still have. High speed rail between close, heavily-populated metros (e.g. Dallas-Houston-San Antonio; Chicago-Detroit; Miama-Tampa-Orlando) might replace some air traffic since the point-to-point times aren’t much different and enough daily runs might make sense. But the ridership would be taken from the airlines, not private passenger cars. Cars are just too darned comfortable, flexible, and already owned by travelers.
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There would probably be more money from the gas tax fund if Oberstar didn’t raid it for bicycle trails and passenger rail. Automobiles were more flexible and it was for that reason, the same people decided to forego rail transportation, not because oil and car companies had a conspiracy to end rail transportation.
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Everything your say is true. You miss one point; we have never made our transportation decisions based on the use of fuel. Almost every car you see has one person in it. My only point for looking at mass transit is that we need to think about energy consumption now. We should have from the beginning, but I think we won’t until $ makes us head in a different direction.
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The project makes no sense if you take a hard look at it. A private company would already be running this route if it were economically feasible. Does anyone think it will ever come close to breaking even?? It won’t get you to the cities any faster. Look how many stops they have added. The government would be better off giving away free bus tickets to those who want to travel. Not that I’m in favor of the government giving stuff away.
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Sorry Ken Buehler, but we tried Amtrak, I tried Amtrak. But only 7 people boarded in Duluth and one in Superior, a couple in Sandstone and Pine City. That’s it. The public will not support the train, so why try to push a square peg through a round hole?
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Buehler is either such very dim bulb he doesn’t understand he is being used as a puppet and a talking head for the powers behind the hospitality industry in Duluth or he sees some very substantial personal gain for selling out his community by pushing this boondoggle. Either scenario is certainly not a good reason to keep pushing what is sure to be a more than billion dollar white elephant that will need enormous amounts of taxpayers dollars to keep it fed. I do hope Ken wakes up soon so he can try to rebuild his lost reputation!!!
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Yes, maybe things will be different in 10-30 years. Why spend huge money to build something we may or may not need? As for the gamble??? We gambled on the aquarium and lost. Leave the gambling to private industry. We are 16 trillion in the hole and counting. We don’t have the money to gamble.
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Train travel, while I love and romance about it, is a thing of the past. Sorry to say. If there were a need for this train, the BN or the CN would be building it already. If all the boosters of this train would put up their own personal money, give us the same train fares they think the government should give us, then I might be willing to give it a try. But, it is still going to be 3-1/2 hours to the Twin Cities, no matter what they say.
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You conveniently forgot to include along with the cost of the train ticket the cost of car rental or cab fare plus the hidden cost of inconvenience of doing either. BTW: Don’t you think they will be building trains in 10 or 30 years? Why build it now when there is no demand, resulting in requiring huge subsidies? Why not wait unti there is demand (if ever) so it could actually be justified and perhaps come close to breaking even? If trains are ever needed, economies of scale in the production of those train sets would probably lower the cost of each train set. For now, why not use a Budd car or a conventional diesel with a couple of passenger cars and see how it works? A man pumping a railway hand car could get to Mpls just about as fast as this joke of a rail service would regardless of what rolling stock is used so why spend over a billion dollars on what can be accomplished for a very reasonable price now? With multiple stops along the way, this will not be high-speed by any stretch of the imagination (as conceded by NLX promoters) so a regualr diesel and cars would suffice.
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Two points. 1. In what way are highways taxpayer-subsidized? Do you mean by the tax we pay on fuel? That’s a user tax — not money from the general fun. It’s maybe the only fair tax since the more you use the highway, the more you pay for it. 2. What makes you sure that highway travel costs will exceed (un-subsidized) rail travel costs in ten or 30 or 100 years? When all the costs of rail travel are considered (amortization of the capital equipment, employee benefits, maintenance, [all part of the ticket price] and subsidies, car rental, cabs, tips) I don’t see how rail passenger service has a chance against private passenger cars. It’s too bad, of course — rail travel is comfortable, pleasant, social. But it doesn’t fit.
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Oh, I get it. We’re supposed to build a rail system into every little hamlet and backwater town? I thought that’s what our highway system did/does. So you want to DUPLICATE what we already have, and charge us for NOT using it? WHAT! Have you been hit by a train or something?!?!?!?
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Relax Hugh, all I am saying is we need to start thinking about any alternative to masses commuting alone in cars. The rails and water remain our most efficient means of moving things. Any investment into those areas will payoff down the line.
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middle man: please explain, under your plan, how a person would get from Brimson to Talmoon.
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WHAT MASSES?!?! Duluth is losing population(except for the influx of social parasites). We can’t even afford to fix our failing streets and sewers, but we can afford a billion dollars for a train that isn’t needed? Ken Buehler, you need to stop posting under the psuedonym “middleman” and give up on this white elephant.
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Looks like I’ll be hitch-hiking.
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If Greyhound couldn’t make it financially, what makes you think that a Billion dollar project will ever break even? The numbers simply aren’t there. Ridership of all transit types (buses, cabs, airlines) combined, except for the private car, still don’t add up to the number of riders needed for this thing to be economically feasible.
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Well maybe if we build it, Oberstar will finally visit Duluth after 36 years of making only cameo appearances and staying at the Holiday Inn.
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Over those 36 years Oberstar visited Duluth less than Bob Dylan did.
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Let’s extend the rail line all the way to Bob Dylan’s house. Then, he’ll be very excited to visit us in Duluth!
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Let’s see, we have the fishtank that was allegedly going to attract 250,000 visits a year tanking. The Depot, even under Buehler’s stellar leadership, is still largely unused, and Spirit mountain is FINALLY beginning to pay for itself, but only after more than 35 years of loans and subsidies. How many other tourism magnets am I forgetting?
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The Omnimax…..
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If you heard a distant explosion, don’t be alarmed. It was just Merv’s head exploding.
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Put on a club car with pole dancers and I’d ride that damn train.
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So what if it’s not exactly the TGV.
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This is the way of the cronic liberal – continue to go about your way as if it will eventually happen. Look at the new $27 million dollar parking ramp, er downtown transportation hub and the suggestion of its value {when} high speed rail comes to Duluth. Look at the preliminary engineering which does not have a long shelf life – mostly paid by the state, I guess Minnesota isn’t as broke as we thought. And of course guys like Buehler, always with the sideways talk of when high speed rail happens. As it’s said liberalism is like a mental disorder.
Minnesota needs a guy like Scott Walker who looked that free billion dollar federal payout in the eyes and had the courage to pull the plug and say get it out of my state.
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See my first comment at the top before you jump to conclusions….
There are a lot of ignorant dim-wits on here and that’s not because I disagree with them. Comparing the aquarium to a train…. Price? Tea? China?
Here’s another one…. (sic) “train travel is a thing of the past”. Shows how parochial and provincial minded that reader is. Really needs to get a passport and see what’s going on in the developed (Japan, Europe) and emerging world (China) with high speed trains.
#1. The NLX as the concept is – is doomed to failure because it’s not “high speed”.
#2. Running any dead-end passenger service to Duluth is financially risky business.
The proposed NLX has too many stops and needs a dedicated railroad that supports high speed and has either sidings or a parallel track for shuttle services or contingencies (breakdowns, emergencies).
I don’t think using existing BN track is the way to achieve either of the above.
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Ah, another liberal too ignorant for his own good. The point being that the Aquarium, the Depot, Spirit mtn, and yes, the Omnimax all used inflated attendance figures to gain funding. There aren’t enough riders to make the NLX feasible, but that has never stopped this type of liberal-driven, white elephant before. Hopefully, we’ll see more county bopards emboldened by Scott Walker’s success and put a stop to this reckless spending. Walker, by the way, refused a federal grant for a high speed rail corridr between Madison and Milwaukee because just the state’s portion, the ongoing maintenance of the line would have seriously hamstrung the state budget. What’s the combined population of Dane and Milwaukee counties? And these to counties share a lot of business activities. Contrast that to the Duluth, TC metor areas and you can see why this thing can’t work.
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Blighty….. I agree that speed is an issue for the line. You won’t attract passengers if the travel time is longer than by car. You are proposing true high speed rail…..that comes at a huge price. If you figure 30-40 million a mile the total cost would be 5-6 billion. Yes, Europe and Japan use high speed rail. Europe and Japan are densely populated areas. I think rail works well for some parts of our country. Commuter rail works well in the metro area. We should put the idea away for now. Maybe in 20-30 years it may be feasible. This is exactly how the aquarium got built. Some special interest group sold everyone how wonderful life would be with a fish tank. Pay attention to history….or you will be doomed to repeat it.
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John…. We’re not really singing from a different hymn sheet but I believe you have some of your facts wrong. Have you been to France? It is not densely populated. Have you riden the TGV? I have. That doesn’t make me an expert on high speed rail but I know a sweeping generalization when I read one. I would agree with you, Japan is another kettle of fish – densely populated. Also, are you sure there isn’t just a bit of exageration in your costings? ROTFL $30-40m per mile? For the record, I have been consistently dubious of the passenger projections and much as I like trains, I am not convinced this will work. Also,,,, does commuter rail work well in Mpls-St P? I just read that they’re discounting tickets to up the ridership.
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B, Our highway system dwarfs that of those countries you mentioned. Our gas costs 1/3 as much. Are you advocating we triple the tax on gas just to subsidize a railway few people want or would use? Isn’t that by definition socialistic? Where gov’t bureaucrats(mostly unelected) determine what is best for us as individuals? What’s the difference between Blomberg in NYC determining that I can’t buy a 32oz soda and Ken Buehler determining that I must fund a high speed rail system that isn’t even warranted? Separate the facts from the emotion for a moment. What solid facts are there that show a definite need for this system, and that it will be self sufficient? On the other side we have all the emotional arguments that really don’t hold water, except that they “seem” like they might be a good idea? How many people, right now, are willing to pony up the 200-300 dollars a round trip ticket would cost(and still not even cover the operating cost of the NLX)? Even if the infrastructure was free, the operational costs would cause tickets prices to be more than airfare.
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$200 or $300 for a round-trip ticket? Are they crazy? Who’d pay that? Maybe 50 bucks round-trip with a club car and pole dancers–then you’d be talking. That way yu’d have your choice of natural beauty to gaze at.
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Blighty…My facts are wrong?? I know France is not Japan…France has over 4 times the population per square mile than Minnesota does. As far as the cost to build a true high speed rail line on a dedicated line…..this is Minnesota. Do you think it would be a cake walk to get past the nimby crowd or the environmentalists? It’s going to cost us a billion just to upgrade an existing line on an existing route. And it’s not even going to be true high speed rail. Why build the Minneapolis to Duluth route? Why pick this route if you were going to blow huge money on rail? The Duluth area has seen zero growth in 35 years. Why not run Minneapolis to St. Cloud to Fargo and maybe out to Grand Forks? At least those areas are growing. North Dakota is booming. Duluth is not.
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Merv, pardon me, but your ignorance is showing…..again! Walker canceled the Madison to Milwaukee line. DUH!
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If humanity only ever focused its energy on what works at the time, instead of looking to what will work in the future, we would still be stuck in the Dark Ages.
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I’d be all for a space elevator if it had a club car.
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Just caught the recent edition of Barbara Reyolt’s half hour spin show ‘Northland voices’ featuring Buehler and St.Louis commissioner Steve Oneil. What a cornucopia of disinformation and misinformation! I think Buehler had a hard time keeping a straight face because the BS was so unbelievably thick. That Steve Oneil has got to go the next time around and you people in the northern part of the county should be ashamed of own stupidity for continually voting that guy in that will literally cost you millions and you will not see a cent of benefit from ridiculous projects like the NLX. My Goodness — sitting here in shear disbelief!!!
I smell referendum for citizens of Superior — I feel like I’m in the twilight zone and I’ll be danged if I’m going sit back and let 10 pro-NLX city councilors decide to put this on my property taxes!
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Ken Buehler is just the public face of the hotel/tourism industry in Duluth. Follow the money…..who stands to profit from the NLX? In the unlikely event that the NLX attracts passengers……the tourism industry stands to gain the most. If it fails….Joe taxpayer is on the hook. The same powerful lobby that pushed for the aquarium is trying to ram the NLX down our throats.
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If subsidization is the mark of failure, then it will fail. As no public rail system in the US is without subsidization.
Follow the money trail, how ironic. If Some or all BNSF tracks are to be used then who owns the rail trail — Warren Buffet! The one and same billionaire liberal and Obama backer that says the rich need to pay more yet still owes millions in back taxes and will profit handsomely from taxpayer supported subsidies.
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If the NLX is built ……BNSF gets a real nice rail line. If the NLX flops….BNSF gets an upgraded line all to itself….paid for by the taxpayers. If the hotel operators in Duluth would like to haul tourists up by rail then let them pay for the NLX.
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