Union official: No progress in Crystal talks
June 8, 2012 at 7:56 am in Grand Forks Herald
A mediation session today involving American Crystal Sugar executives and locked-out union workers apparently ended without any progress toward a settlement of the lengthy dispute.
Continue Reading
Of course there hasn’t been any progress. ACS means it when they say “final offer”. The plants are running, they’re making money. Why should they be expected to change their terms when they have nothing to lose? The workers on the other hand…. they have everything to lose by not accepting the contract. Put it to a vote again and let the workers – not the “negotiators” decide what they want after being without a job for nearly a year.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
190 
21
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
30 
89
There is no sugar subsidy. The sugar program is a NO COST PROGRAM, the only one that operates at no cost to the government or taxpayer.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
77 
23
Shocking
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
106 
7
What part of “final offer” does the union not understand? In today’s economy- the “final offer” is very sweet.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
162 
23
At what point does ACS just flat out tell the people that they no longer have jobs and that the Union no longer has bargaining power with the company.
For those of you who actually believe you have a job to go back to, its time to face reality.
The Union screwed you.
Better go fill out an application at ACS and hope they have an available slot, i hear they are extremely happy with the new workforce.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
164 
25
I have asked that question numerous times and never really got an answer. As best I can tell, unless the locked out union members decertify the union, it can go on indefinately. That is as wrong as two left feet, but it is the way the law is written.
From a practicle stance it really does not matter. The replacements are working, getting a paycheck and collecting bennies. The union members are simply a data point in a database somewhere. They are not costing the company anything other than some admin time and the occassional press conference.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
88 
16
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
26 
98
OUCH! That’ll show ‘em.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
71 
12
Ok….whatever you say Robert….can you name some of these grocers?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
70 
8
Their store brand is most likely ACS anyways.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
72 
9
Your comment makes little sense given the vast majority of Americans negotiate for their wages without paying union officials to do it for them, and they (for the most part) feel they have fair wages.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
68 
9
According to the Radio – ‘The Offer they Couldn’t Refuse’ contained significant pay increases that are not in line with ACS’s Final Contract Offer.. There was other items as well but didn’t catch the whole report..
So what was in this supposed offer that ‘They couldn’t refuse’? Because they obviously did refuse it.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
129 
15
What no takers??? Well color me shocked!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
22 
4
I think the union should post their offer on their website for all their members to see. It should have been done from the beginning. I just looked at their site…the last update was from six months ago. There is no excuse for that.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
41 
0
I hope the remaining union members get a chance to vote on what is on the table. http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/u.a.reject.pdf
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
99 
10
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
31 
130
Aren’t you diabetic….
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
56 
12
What good is the union if they cost people their jobs? Union folks.. insist on a vote. Let the union leadership know how fed up with THEM we are. They can’t keep putting the blame on the company and the growers.
Union members…you should be voting tomorrow on the contract. The leadership should have been better prepared going into today’s meeting. Instead of the long walk….they should have stayed home and got ready to vote. What are they waiting for? Next weekend is Father’s Day.
Why are you people putting your jobs in the hands of a man that would drunk dial Joe Talley? Think about that for a minute. Who does that? That speaks volumes to me about Mark Froemke’s character and his negotiating skills. Where is his mind at? Is this the guy you want making life choices for you?
It’s long past the time to stand up to the union leadership so people can go back to work. Take control of your life.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
144 
16
It is an amazing video. The biggest lesson learned here is to not attempt to say the word “equitable” after you have been drinking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE3sZG_yxf0&feature=plcp
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
79 
12
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
11 
73
Spearman in his best Lloyd Bentsen impersonation: “People, I know Mark Froemke, I have served Mark Froemke, Mark Froemke is a friend of mine. People, this is not a drunk Mark Froemke.”
Do you have a sample video of him really drunk? It would be fun to compare the two.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
50 
7
Is Froemke drunk in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM6vzMpf-GI
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
44 
9
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
28 
119
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
27 
100
Yah!!! Victory!!! You got your job back…..Good for you!!!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
57 
10
That is dirty pool. And you wonder why unions get a bad reputation…
If the company somehow impeded the workers from earning money, the union would scream, but evidently there are two different standards in play.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
75 
9
“managers ‘made clear that they are not willing to compromise on any issue and intend to prolong the lockout until every single one of their terms is met without amendment or qualification.’”
I thought that is what a final offer was: one rendered AFTER negotiations. Their final offer has been on the table for 10 months.
It is obvious the union believes it is 1968 and that all that is needed is a a counter proposal to make the other side return with another counter proposal and this goes on and on till an agreement is reached. This is business, not diplomacy or the Paris Peace talks.
We have discussed the size and shape of the table quite enough. Put it up for another vote and let that be the end ofit.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
94 
17
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
30 
126
Who cares who works in the factory as long as they are qualified, the company pays to local workers and is a Product of the USA, made with American workers. Should not matter if union or not, but ones that have the heart to work where they want to work and get paid for what they do for a job well done.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
88 
14
Rick, you are quite the wordsmith!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
58 
6
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
4 
17
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
22 
127
Feel better now Rick?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
81 
13
Rick…don’t say that with your mouthful of food!! Farmers grow the food you shove in your mouth everyday! I imagine you think food “magically” appears in the grocery stores! I’m not sure why you are calling the replacement workers “stupid”, they got the same job done as the locked out workers.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
96 
21
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
26 
62
Obesity, it’s called toss out the gameboy, wii, playstation games they are addicted to, get them outside doing something, like jogging, walking, or anything constructive.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
76 
7
Rick….as a friend i’m telling you to seek help. I would say AA.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
62 
15
The better off a farmer is the better off the local economy is, when, if a bad year comes, it effects the area considerably from dealerships, repair shops, stores, trickles down from there.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
76 
12
Real intelligent! You set a fine example. Your attitude is consistent with your union leadership which is why you don’t garner much sympathy.
You also wonder why there is no settlement? Crystal apparently is seeking employees with a better attitude who really do want to work. Work that includes salaries and benefits that are hard to match in this region for people of that skill set. You had it pretty good. Move on.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
59 
10
Rick…Please don’t boycott ACS!!! Between you , Shurkey, and your other 2 friends, there is no way ACS can survive!! I’m begging you please tell me it isn’t so!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
95 
17
Sounds like the union has a real leadership candidate in Rick here.
Well done Sir!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
87 
16
He hasn’t said it yet, but I guarantee you that Rick has stopped donating to UND, too.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
75 
10
BTW Rick….The unions across america are fading into the history books…the AFL CIO alone lost 30,000 members in the last year in WI alone thanks to WI State Gov SCOTT WALKER that easily won his seat in a recall by an even farther spread of votes than the first election! Strange eh? He did what he said and busted down the walls and recieved a huge THANK YOU from the people. Now there you are sitting there saying boycott ACS and telling them where to go and driving slow in front of transystems trucks….and where has it gotten you? If you had the support of the public and the farmers espicially this would have been over on Aug 2nd 2011 dont ya think?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
85 
14
does anyone still need a union today what with all the federal regulations, laws, minimun wages, fema, etc…? how many other companies are eyeing ACS to see how it comes out? The union here is dead, lay down now and accept it. The union now is just a way to steal your hard earned money in monthly dues which isn’t cheap.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
73 
15
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
16 
64
Actually, Germany had been going through serious labor reforms and that is credited with the boom. Unions hated these reforms at first.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2010/10/04/lessons-from-germanys-economic-boom/
“He says that in the 1980s and ‘90s Germany’s competitive position (unit labor cost) dramatically declined because of a 35-hour work week, high benefits and early retirement, just to name some of the issues. The result was a rising unemployment rate that barely improved even during economic upswings. All of that changed between 2003-05, however, as German companies radically reformed labor relations.”
“He says the union rank and file knew that the companies had their backs to the wall; company threats of massive layoffs and outsourcing to Eastern Europe or Asia were not a bluff. So companies worked with their unionized employees to revise both pay and work requirements.
Union leaders didn’t like this approach at first and wanted to sue their own members for entering into these deals.”
The ACS rank and file members need to stand up to the union leaders the way they did in Germany!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
66 
10
Excellent post Josh. Just be aware that posters on these boards are not known for letting reality interfere with a good emotional argument.
I have detailed several times how airline unions worked together with management to insure the company stayed viable – & the employees had jobs to go to.
The ACS union members are not interested in how to succeed, only in how to play the victim
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
60 
10
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
11 
46
Spearman: just say “wow I didn’t know that. My previous post was incorrect; I retract it. Thanks for bringing me up to speed” & move on.
Trying to prove you are correct when you are not simply makes you look foolish
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
42 
7
Spearman: Germany has socialized medicine, a huge safety net ($$ for not working), & government retirement. It was these benefits that almost bankrupted them after reunification.
Most of these benefits were severely limited (gutted) after reunification to prevent economic disaster.
The average West German wants to give East Germany back to the Russians because it will take at least another decade if not another generation to bring the eastern part of the country out of their socialist past. The damage socialism (your preferred form of government from what I gather) caused has resulted in expenditures rivaling the Marshall Plan to repair.
Always Correct wants everyone to live on a reservation & you want ND to resemble 1950s East Germany.
You are starting to scare me
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
38 
5
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
19 
40
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
14 
80
Well then Spear, your choice is clear……move to MN, better yet, Germany.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
62 
10
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
8 
30
Spearman that is the most unsupportable string of babble I have ever heard. You crack me up. ND economy is strong because we found oil. Republican or Democrat cannot take credit for that.
I am sure the oil companies will be glad to learn you think they are socialist.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
58 
11
“Spearman that is the most unsupportable string of babble I have ever heard. You crack me up”
FN, you’re doing it wrong. When Spearman, (and others), author posts that contain words like “you rightys”, you’re not supposed to actually read the post and think about it. You’re supposed to skim, then nod in glassy-eyed agreement.
It says so right in the handbook the post’s content was copied and pasted from.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
38 
9
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
7 
37
Spearman. I am Liberterian. While I do not believe the government is the enemy, I do believe if left to its own devices it would mess up a one car parade. It is also NEVER to be trusted to do the right thing.
Government is a necessary evil, but it is the least efficient, least effective agent of change in existence. It takes too long & costs too much to get anything done.
Would we have won WWII if Henry Kaiser had not figured out how to produce ships in months instead of years or if Ford hadn’t figured out how to make planes instead of cars?
Was it a government regulation that mandated the hiring of women in defense industries or was it the industries themselves that went to the farms & said come to work, the nation needs you?
How did we win WWII? The government said produce what we need & you will get cost plus 10%. Defraud us & you will go to jail or disappear.
A simple & elegant system we could use today.
State banks & mills are anachronistic to this never trust government to do the right thing mindset. You will not get me to agree with you that they are a good idea.
Free enterprise is not perfect & Lord knows there have been plenty of Robber Barons throughout the years. That said, in the long run it is always better than a government run economy. Remember Nixon’s price controls? Remember 21% inflation?
I do not believe government is bad, just learning disabled (very low IQ & functional capacity) & inefficient.
The housing crunch in the oil patch is not being solved by government, but by a few entrepreneurs who figured out how to make & deploy mobile dorms with military precision & unheard of speed.
If it was up to government we would still be in the research phase trying to determine if a problem even exists; much less how to solve it.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
43 
8
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
8 
38
Really have you looked at the State of MN property taxes, payroll taxes and associated fees for absolutely everything and you still can’t balance the budget??? Someday MN will wake up and shed their baggage.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
28 
6
I recall reading the word “stalemate” in this article… What stalemate? Seems to me the only folks stopped in any fashion are the union! ACS is trucking along getting new workers spun up and trained, beets are being processed with some issues, but nothing stopping production. I wonder if these union folks realize how poor a position they’ve been put in by their union reps and their own decisions?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
67 
11
This is just me daydreaming and quite moot, but if this issue was measure #5 on Tuesday’s ballot, I believe the workers would be back to work on Wednesday, by a landslide.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
48 
11
I think everyone knew this would last at least until the unemployment benefits ran out. The union had very little incentive to really give in until they stopped getting free money (most of which comes from ACS and a little that comes from the taxpayers).
Like I have said from the beginning, ACS should have taken their “final offer” off the table the minute it was voted down. They should draft a “new final offer” that is much tougher on the union.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
62 
11
No. That would be perceived as petty & vindictive; giving the union more ammunition in the “we are victims” public relations campaign.
This way by not changing anything they are realizing the same results with the union doing all the work for them.
In the end management gets their contract: either with replacements or ACS union members. In the end it really doesn’t matter to management, the end result is the same
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
45 
10
Honest question. If a union member quits the union and crosses “the line” are their previous years of service honored by the company and keep accumulated sick leave, receive the current vacation days offered by the company based on their years of service, keep their pension? Or do they start all over at square one?
Hot debate. What do you think?
18 
21
That’s a toughie Ron. Let’s go back to Ron Enterprises…shall we?
You and one of your long-time employees reach a stalemate at review/negotiation time and he leaves. (Yes Ron…HE left. Since YOU’RE the employER and he’s the employEE, and HE wouldn’t work for what YOU offered….he left.)
While he was gone, you took on the additional hours of work yourself involved in finding/hiring/training a replacement and started to get things back to “normal”.
Then your former employee *agrees* to come back to work.
Where does your former employee stand Ron?
Honest question. Does his former status/seniority/accumulated benefits/whatever pick right up where it left off?
And what about his replacement? Is his “reward” due to your former employee’s change of heart a big ol’ pink slip?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
45 
11
No.. They start at square one. Because the union is engaged in a labor dispute they have to severe all ties with their old life & start anew.
As for 401 K, retirement, etc. it depends on how many years with the company, vestment, & how the policy is written
Hope this helps
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
48 
1
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
15 
33
http://www.acsccontracttalks.com
Check out the February 21 posts. The 2nd one should answer your questions.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
41 
0
Ron, if you can ask a question, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that someone else could ask a question as well….hypothetical or otherwise. I see your question has been answered.
You wouldn’t mind answering mine….would you? What would the status of your employee be? How about his replacement?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
36 
4
Thank you tj for the link. It did answer my question. I asked this question because there have been comments asking why don’t these locked out workers go back to work? Well from what I see is you walk back into the plant pretty much like its your first day of work for american crystalm. You lose all your vacation and sick leave that you have accumulated over the past 10 15 or 20 years and you will never recoupe these hours even if the lockout ends. And to top it all off you aren’t even guarenteed your previous position if you resign fromit to cross the line. Under these guidelines you would either have to be pretty blind or incredibly desperate to go back to work for american crystal. I believe what we are seeining is most locked out employees moving on to other employment, employees with 25 to 30 years living off of savings that they would be living on in a couple years anyways holding out for the slim chance that they do get their positions back and can get a few more years of service in, and the very minor very slim minority that resigned their union positions and crossed the line.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
31 
6
You are welcome Ron.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
25 
2
The union really has nothing to lose by asking for what they will not receive. Any union member worth their snuff has moved on and found gainful employment elsewhere. The few that haven’t will also move on. American crystal is on its way to completly overhauling its work force and will save money on this lockout. The reason is they have just gotten rid of all the senior employees and now have a compensation package of a new hire across the board in every union postition! Think of the savings this factory is getting entry level pay only 1 week of vacation to pay! They havve no reason to budge on their final offer. Who would you just took your entire union work force back to entry level pay and compensation!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
31 
9
Ron, as it stands right now, the replacement workers get 4 hours of vacation a pay period, which equates to about 8 hours a month…there were no layoffs this year so for the replacement workers who started in December, which is when they started hiring locally, they will accumulate approximately 2-1/2 weeks of vacation in their first year. As well, I wouldn’t define $14.75 to $25 starting pay as “entry level” wages. The one thing they aren’t getting though is sick leave, which I’m sure is an ACS ploy to make sure that people aren’t abusing calling in sick since they don’t have sick time to use. The replacement workers have excellent attitudes and want to be there. They do not have a sense of entitlement that they DESERVE their jobs. In fact, ACS is already randomly drug testing the replacements even though most of them were just hired. They have enough applicants to continuously be able to weed out the bad seeds. The replacement workers are also able to do extra work and are willing to. Previously, if it wasn’t in their job description, union members didn’t have to do work they didn’t want to do if it wasn’t in their job description. Ultimately, with this tactic being able to be utilized now, they will need to hire less people because many of the workers are being cross trained to do more than one job. They will be paying less wages and less benefits which ultimately is going to go back into the pockets of farmers.
As far as the question about crossing the line, they do go back to square one if they cross; however, at this point, with ACS refusing to budge on seniority and other issues, what is really the big deal about crossing? If the union decides to sign, they lose their seniority placement anyway. As of right now, from what I understand, union members are able to cash out their vacation and 401K if they want…they earned it so it is theirs regardless of being locked out.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
45 
6
“The union really has nothing to lose by asking for what they will not receive. ”
They may very well have “nothing to lose” as far as the chances of actually getting what they’re asking for goes, but consider what their “strategy” does for the already less-than-stellar public opinion goes.
It’s silly to assume that they “aren’t concerned” or “don’t care” about what John Q. Public thinks, because time and again they’ve done things in order to “get the word out” about what’s going on in order to drum up more support. By continuing to ask for things that:
(a) they don’t think they’ll get
because:
(b) they have no leverage whatsoever
…only serves to drive the point home to LOTS of people that they very much ARE developing “strategies” off in their own little world. The longer they continue to do what they’re doing, the support for them, (and organized labor in general), takes a hit.
So yeah, asking for something they know they aren’t going to get doesn’t “cost” them anything at the negotiating table. But ask the guy on the street what he thinks about the thought process that goes into asking for something when they’re in no position to assume it’s realistic…and see what kind of answer you’ll get.
Long story short: We’ve all been employed for a while and have all *probably* come across a co-worker or two that thinks they’re in a position to assume that some “special” set of rules, circumstances, or exclusions applies to them….and not everyone else. And we all know how we “feel” about those peoples’ attitudes….
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
39 
8
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
12 
33
Sounds to me like a LOT of things should be carefully considered before casting a “no” vote in the first place Ron. Your post sort of reminds me of some of the things that were brought up when the locked-out employes in ND were trying to lobby for unemployment benefits.
Ron, if there were no risks to the employee….what would be among the considerations they would be weighing at voting time? Back when the lobbying for unemployment benefits was going on, many said they felt it was unfair that they weren’t eligible to receive benefits. Now, it seems like you’re at least partially convinced that it’s somehow unfair that some “earned” benefits are given up when a lock-out occurs.
How should it all work? At “negotiating” time, should an employee not have to worry at all about their income stream, nor should they have to worry about not having an identical, guaranteed, pick-right-up-where-they-left-off position to go back to once the lock-out ends?
How do you imagine that scenario would play out?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
33 
7
My math is not wrong when it is an 8-hour workday, which exists throughout the plants. As well, you are only hired for $14.75 if you are in an entry level position. Other positions that require some sort of skill get hired at a higher pay…in fact I know people getting hired for $21+ an hour to start. I know of nowhere else that does that unless you have a college degree!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
26 
4
My son does 4 twelve hour shifts a week. That is what he has been on since he signed up almost 6 months ago. I do not pretend to understand his schedule with all the switching back and forth, nights and days, etc. But I do know he is not working 8 hour shifts
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
18 
2
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
11 
33
His math isn’t necessarily wrong, it depends upon which factory you work in. Only 2 of them, I think Hillsboro and Crookston, work the 12 hour shifts. The others are on 8 hour shifts.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
32 
2
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
4 
35
sounds like an awful lot of self inflicted pain.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
41 
3
Ron, you are making a lot of assumptions regarding the replacement hires. You assume everyone is hired at the lowest possible pay and benefits. That may be true when people are hired into private union or public union positions, but that is not necessarily true with non-unionized hiring. While not on the same scale as ACSC (my business employs approximately three dozen people) at my work new hires are started with compensation and benefits which reflect their prior experience and abilities. The last two hires were near the top of the compensation for employees and received significantly more paid vacation than some of the employees that were already working here. The forced pay scales of private unions and public unions have benefits and drawbacks. One benefit is that many people believe that a union structure is fair because it eliminates subjectivity in employee evaluation by replacing it with simply looking at the position that the employee fills and their time of service. In my opinion this is a significant drawback because it precludes rewarding exceptional workers, doesn’t penalize workers who do the minimum amount of work required to remain employed and promotes mediocrity. Yes, this is a generalization; there are lazy private sector workers and phenomenal union workers. But, my experience is that if compensation is tied to performance/production there is more incentive to excel.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
48 
4
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
9 
41
“How do Union members go from being the “VERY BEST” to a cancerous tumor? ”
How many times does the “cancer quote” need to be corrected?
This is part of the union’s problem. If they have an issue to be upset about and comment on, and if that issue has enough *merit* on its own to BE upset about, THEN….it doesn’t require any build-up or exaggeration for “effect”. You’re unwittingly diminishing the impact the point you’re trying to make….when it becomes obvious that you’re taking liberties with the quote(s) you’re using.
Paraphrasing, taking things out of context, etc. etc. are all part of the reason support isn’t what the union would like it to be.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
42 
6
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
8 
41
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
8 
28
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
12 
24
Actually 15 bucks an hour for someone wanting to start a career is pretty darn good.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
35 
7
We have discussed this before and I was severely thrashed for saying it. $15 an hour plus benefits for a non-skilled, semi-skilled position is darn good. My son was earning $9 an hour and no bennies at his old place.
If he can become a welder or electrician he gets to join the “skilled” category of worker and earn $25 an hour, which is what an average nurse at Altru earns (give or take a dollar or two an hour in either direction).
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
19 
4
Keep the posts coming Ron. Include some information in your upcoming posts about the wages replacement workers, (“skilled” and “unskilled”), would receive elsewhere.
It’s a bit confusing how you can make determinations about the “sweetness” of a given worker’s “deal” unless you include some hard numbers from other local employers, you know….so we can compare.
As for this:
“According to american crystal when you resign your union benefits you resign your continuous years of service. This means when you apply for a temporary position you start from scratch at the entry level with entry level benefits. When the lockout ends your previous years of service mean nothing if you were actually recalled to your postion which is not a guarantee.”
I’ll ask again….how SHOULD it work? Do you WANT situations like this to have “guarantees” that the employees get to return to work as if nothing ever happened? Same pay, same position, same benefits, same continuous years of service, etc. should all be guaranteed?
I wonder how the union members would vote in any contract negotiation if that were the case.
“Psssst….everyone vote *no*. All it means is there’ll be a lock-out. All we have to do is sit tight. The jobs, the pay, and the benefits will all be there when we get back. It’s guar-an-teed……”
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
39 
7
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
8 
27
Scott, did I ever say american crystal should credit union members for previous years of service when they apply forreplacement positions. All I am stating is that iit would not be a good move for someone who is a union member to apply for these positions because they have little to gain and a lot to lose by doing so while the lockout is still in place. They would be better served applying elsewhere. As much as you hate it if terms were agreed upon between the union and american crystal and the lockout ended these people would go back to work at their current years of service and pay levels, because it is the law!
Hot debate. What do you think?
14 
23
I think there are complications here that have to do with labor dispute laws. Specifically, crediting either locked out or striking union employees who wish to cross a picket line with years of service benefits. There are specific rules and regulations that have to be followed when hiring employees during this situation.
However, any company is free to seek out and hire a person based upon their experience, pay accordingly and negotiate other compensation that is appropriate. That is how free market works. I’m sure Crystal, when seeking a master electrician, welder, or any person with skill set who has 10, 20 or 30 years of experience will recognize that and pay accordingly. If it is prior experience specifically with Crystal, I would not expect a person in that position to be “entry level”. The opportunities to advance and receive bonus’s within a company in a non-union environment is much greater than in the adversarial union verses management situation. Look at Marvin Windows for example. The employees there do not want a union.
Like or Dislike:
10 
3
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
12 
22
“Do. A simple search in jobs hq on the herald and similat jobs looking for electricians with similar qualifications range anywhere from 17.00 to 30.00.”
Ron, you’re hilarious. It’s been said time and again that you can find SOME examples such as the one you described. So why, pray tell….have you selected an ACTUAL “skilled labor” position, (as the term “skilled labor” is defined and accepted pretty much everywhere), to illustrate your “point”?
I’ve asked you a couple of dozen times now to investigate some more typical ACS positions that DON’T fall into the, (accepted everywhere), “skilled labor” categories.
You spent more than a few paragraphs talking about how ANYTHING learned on the job ANYWHERE qualifies in your book as a “skill”, so why don’t YOU check in the classifieds yourself and post up the plethora of examples of jobs OTHER THAN what is traditionally considered a “skilled labor” position…..and then go into detail about how those wage and benefits packages compare.
You cherry-picked an example to “prove your point”. The problem is, the example you chose is a position with defined and accepted parameters. A journeyman electrician can apply anywhere as a journeyman electrician.
How ’bout you choose an example to prove you point….that actually PROVES YOUR POINT? Pick an ACS job that is ACS-specific. List all of the “skills” learned on the job, THEN go back to the classifieds…and circle all of the ads you see that those skills are relevant to. Scribble down the compensation details and post your results.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
20 
4
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
9 
26
I guess I just find a lot of these posts “quote-worthy”. Once I post the quote Ron, I respond to it with, (are you ready for this?), some “independent thoughts” on whatever the subject may be. Are you really “fuzzy” at this point about where I stand? Really?
Does the quoting bother you because it makes it clear for everyone to see what/whom I’m responding to? You’ve called me out a couple of times and said I posted things that I didn’t actually post. When you did so, I INVITED you to cut and paste my “quote”.
And, of course….you didn’t. Because what you said I said didn’t actually exist. I can see why you perhaps don’t like the whole “quoting thing”. It calls attention to what you’ve ACTUALLY said, and it identifies what exactly is being responded to.
Makes it more difficult to try and wiggle out of something later, doesn’t it?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
24 
4
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike:
5 
23