Two days before union talks, sugar co-op leaders say they like replacement workers
June 7, 2012 at 1:05 am in Grand Forks Herald
Ten months after they locked out 1,300 Bakery Workers union members and two days before their next talks with the union over a new contract, the top brass of American Crystal Sugar Co. looked and spoke Wednesday as if they are sitting in the catbird seat. Continue Reading
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Mike, please get some help.
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Don’t throw a stone in your nice little glass house. How many “former” union employees have criminal records. I know of a few including those in the union leadership.
It is too bad many of the former employees have found jobs elsewhere. Some will return when they don’t feel the screws of the union pressing them. Many have already returned. Many of those that are left are people the company probably doesn’t want back anyway. I know of a few that are lazy and worthless that relied on union protection to keep them in their job.
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How about the guy in this article, http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/13375/, I can’t believe that it hasn’t came to light that he worked at ACS, how could this happen. He is a locked out Union member. ACS must be “temporarily” replacing the pedophile Union members.
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So with 7000 applicants, that would be >50 per work day to look at. Mike it takes some time to do this and unfortunately with that volume sometimes things get missed.
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I am sorry, I am not familiar with the origin of the term, “Scabs”.
Could you please explain to me why anyone deserves being called such a term? What was their sin? Taking an open job to feed their family? God forbid!
I am pro-union, but name calling has no place in any discussion. Demonizing and dehumanizing people has been a tactic used for centuries to control the masses. Look how upset everyone got at the rumor that the union was called a cancer, yet you openly use such a derogatory term to describe honest working men and women?
Shame on you…
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Josh: you make a good point. I want to remind people, though, that the management was talking about the health insurance increases (a growing burden to the company) as a cancer. I thought the analogy was fair and the reaction of the union a complete over-reation. It’s still about this huge cancer (health care costs).
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A strikebreaker (sometimes derogatorily called a scab) is a person who works despite an ongoing strike. Strikebreakers are usually individuals who are not employed by the company prior to the trade union dispute, but rather hired prior to or during the strike to keep the organisation running. “Strikebreakers” may also refer to workers (union members or not) who cross picket lines to work.
Or in our case…a lockout!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Scab is hardly the right term, are they employed and making money? Yes! I would call them hard working and smart. ACS is not falling apart because the union workers are not there. My father-in-law has always said, “if you want to know how long you will be missed, no matter how high up you are, when you leave a job, stick your fingers in a bowl of water and pull them out. When the ripples stop, that is how long you will be missed”. No one is unreplacable.
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The term “scab” is often incorrectly used by picketing union members and their leadership. If you are not in a union or have never been in a union you are non-union.”Scab” is a union term, which describes ONLY a union employee that crosses a picket line to go to work, or a union member that takes employment that is non-union. ONLY a union member can be a scab! This term was put in place many decades ago, to make the union member that was not obeying the unions decisions, to be “labeled” as inferior. This scab label, would then enpower the fellow union members to ridicule, humiliate, & intimidate the labeled individual to try and force them to fall back into union compliance.
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John, Jo and T-roy would probably get along pretty well. Sabotage a work station, key a car, spit on people, then re-write a song inciting violence. What a lovely union. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbJqRrk6GUM&feature=endscreen&NR=1
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There are no scabs in work, but word for thought, if you get a wound, new, often better, healthier skin comes in with the scab. Scab is renewal and healing in my term.
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The upcoming meeting will be an exercise in futility for the union and a waste of time for management. Both sides have drawn lines in the sand. Management has said again and again “final” offer. To change that now would make them seem like they are caving.
The union has rejected that same offer twice. To all of the sudden accept it would make them appear to cave.
Since both sides still have too much pride to “cave,” the meeting is a publicity stunt. Nothing more.
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That’s ridiculous to associate pedophilia and criminal records with ACS, Unions, or any other reputable place of employment! I would bet the statistics are no different at ACS than any other corporation of comparable size.
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You are correct and I apologize.
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I don’t think it’s a good sign that mgt is projecting the fact that they are happy with the workers they have on the books right now. The union is DONE at ACS… deal with it! If you think for a moment there’s a chance they’ll cave, you need to send away to Sears Roebuck for a “reality” starter kit. Just 24.99, shipping and handling not included. On a serious note, I don’t necessarily have a side I have chosen…but it’s clear to me that the union overplayed their hand and it got bitten. Will the union cave? Absolutely not…they can’t afford to give any more ground after the loss in Wisconsin…so they’ll hold the hard line and the workers will suffer…at least those on the outside of the fence will. And all the pity marches from one end of the valley to the other won’t change that reality. Sorry folks, I call ‘em like I see ‘em.
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Spot On!
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Agree
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I 100% agree… um… what does that have to do with the lockout?
Those facts were all true before the lockout. Were you on my side of this issue then too?
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Won’t find an argument from me. I have said numerous times I am against the farm and sugar bills (TJ beats me every time I say that).
That said, the demise of either or both will not help the union in their present struggle nor will it cause all the growers to go belly up. They are farmers. They will simply plant a different crop. Marilyn Hagerty did a great piece on life before the sugar beet.
People need to take a longer view and have a little more respect for the market.
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Are not most nurses in unions?
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Once again, Sugar is NOT Subsidized! IT costs the government nothing. ever notice the overweight, diabetic always have aspertame drinks? and how this all started about the aspertame time frame? Monsanto spends millions to FDA just to keep aspertame(nutrasweet) on the market and to keep it’s side effects kept from the public. Reduce fat intake, get out and excersise.
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Not exactly John…… The leading cause of obesity is laziness and the lack of physical work! And if people want to multiply that with the choice of bad eating habits, go ahead! People shouldn’t blame others for your own short comings. The government isn’t here to fix their entire life. People need to take responsibility for themselves. They may find it very rewarding!
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Gayle, I would agree with you, I don’t think Berg needed to state the he does not see a burning desire to settle this. Your union chose to roll the dice before this lockout. Your union had the opportunity to negotiate and choose not to, the NLRB reflects that. I don’t need to quote it as I am sure you are well aware of what it said. Your union thought ACS could not process the crop and although it was not a smooth operation, ACS completed it. The union gambled big and lost, it is plain and simple. ACS does not need to bend to the union, afterall the offer is a very competitve package that is attracting alot of applicants. I feel bad for workers, I truly believe people are trapped in a no win situation at this point. Very sad and frustrating. This lockout cost the growers alot of money and in my opinion, it was avoidable. The union had the opportunity to negotiate in the begining and did not. I don’t have sympathy for the “union” but I certainly do for the individual workers.
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Jo, 30 million in concessions??? Over what period of time and how is that 30 mill calculated? If you can show me a link to view these concessions, I will certainly take a look. Over the past 10 months, I have yet to see the request actually answered. The union never negotiated in the begining, period. I am very aware of the dissmissal of ACS claim, but that does not change the fact that the union made no concessions nor offered solutions to fix the problem.
ACS wanted to negotiate in the begining, the union thought they had ACS over the barrell and now is caught with its pants down. The union didn’t play fair, thought it could get a suicide squeeze, failed and now wants the company to play nice……give me a break!
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Jo, show us these concessions. I can’t find them anywhere. There are a half dozen BCTGM websites out there and none of them list any concessions or proposals. I know exactly what the ACS final offer contains. The union just provides snippets of hearsay from its disgruntled membership.
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Ahhhh….but who filed what….and when?
And….when the NLRB denied the company’s claim, did they go into any detail? Just wondering, because when they denied the union’s claims they explained why by saying that the company’s offers made significant movement….while the union basically did squat.
They prefaced the reason for their denial of the union’s claims, by saying that they weren’t just denying the claims, they were “substantially denying” them.
They didn’t however use the same language when they dismissed the company’s claim….did they?
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George, A no strike guarantee means nothing to a union, Not worth the gamble when dealing with a perishable product.
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Gayle, A no strike guarantee means nothing to a union, not worth the gamble when dealing with a perishable product. (long day, typed george by mistake)
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Where is the evidence for this? Show us all. The union has gotten pretty good about making statements without backing them up.
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I always confuses me how people (especially in unions) define terms. What exactly do you mean by “negotiate”? Does negotiation preclude the use of a truly “final offer”? I was never told that. If you offer me $1 for my car and I ask for 90% of the KBB price, how much should I reasonably be expected to “negotiate” with you?
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So, if you and I are negotiating over something, it would be stupid for either of us to start out with anything close to the true value. If we did, we would be accused of non negotiating in good faith because we are not giving any ground from our previous position???
This makes no sense what-so-ever. Would you care to “negotiate” for the sale of my 1 dollar bill? My starting asking price is for 10 billion dollars. Your starting offer is probably 0, so if you don’t meet me in the middle at $5 billion, you are negotiating in bad faith?
Making a fairly reasonable “final offer” is a negotiating tactic. So is walking away.
It is just one of my biggest frustrations when someone I generally agree with makes me look bad by making indefensible illogical statements.
Say they won’t offer a “fair” contract.
Say they have a monopsony on sugar producing labor in the area.
Say they provide tough working conditions and so should pay above average wages and benefits.
Just don’t say they should negotiate regardless of how reasonable their “final” offer is.
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“There has been no give from the company!”
That’s ridiculous and you know it. Not only did the NLRB say the company made significant movement during negotiations, but you’re conveniently forgetting all of the “giving” the company did prior to the beginning of negotiations.
You haven’t by chance compared your pay and benefits package to what you would have gotten elsewhere….have you?
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Gayle you are overlooking one simple fact: all of the farmers that have chosen to go on the record have been in support of management’s actions. I have not seen one single farmer support the union in print.
ACS is a coop. If the farmers are unhappy Berg is unemployed. Since he is still at the helm that means the farmers agree with the course he has plotted.
It is silly to point out how much money the farmers are losing. They planned for those loses. The payoff in the end must be worth it in their minds.
My question is what is the payoff. They must know something we don’t. They are getting their ducks in a row for something down the road. This is not about now or even the next 5 years. This is strategic.
I would love to know what they are planning for
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Quite simply they are planning for the future. Sugar beets have been grown in the valley for nearly a hundred years and for forty years the plants have been owned by the growers. Those growers want to make sure ACSC continues as a viable company for their children and their grandchildren. The path they have taken will improve the odds of that happening. Only if ACSC survives can it be an employer in the future, too. No shortsightedness there.
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When will these former ACS workers finally wake up to reality? The union can’t help them anymore. Unions are impotent, especially this one.
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Paul: I am not trying to be rude, but that is not your problem is it?
The growers have decided this is worth the financial hit. Why does everyone on the union side find that so hard to believe?
The growers and ACS management can read the writing on the wall. The farm bill and sugar bill will either be gone or gutted in the next decade. It will take at least that long to retool enough to be profitable in the new environment.
The union can either be proactive and be part of that retooling, or it can be left on the waste heap.
The union members chose the waste heap. Kind of hard to feel sorry for people who have made a conscious choice.
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You might be right, but the farm bill will not be killed outright. That would cause too big of a disruption. I see it getting gutted over the next two to three cycles; then possibly eliminated.
Remember, every two years the people who make the money bills get elected/re-elected and thrown out. It is hard to say what the next congress will do.
I think (this is just a guess) that ACS is planning some major upgrades to some of the plants. If the new equipment increases productivity enough, then I also see at least two plants closing.
The crops will not get that much bigger, so with the increased efficiency there would be no need to keep all of the existing plants open.
That is just a guess, but all the emphasis on no closed shop on new classifications of employees (with the guarantee not to reclassify any existing employees) leads me to think that new equipment (hence the new classifications) on in the works.
If the farm bill goes away in one fell swoop it could be a moot point. Then sugar processing won’t be needed. We will have to wait and see what they plant instead.
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Paul-
You have no knowledge of how the campaign went, only the rhetoric you’re being told from your fellow Union people.
The large incoming crop will be handled just fine, you can rest on that. Last year’s crop was processed on a learning curve, and now that the majority of the learning has been completed, we will do just fine.
As far as efficiencies, you never helped when you were here anyway.
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Can you please give me the math you used to come up with a March end to this year? I don’t seem to follow.
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Paul, I am very familiar with ACS website to access information. I don’t recall in prior years seeing daily slice rates for the factories. Where within the website was that information located? ACS has offered very good paying jobs and great careers for local famalies for years and is still doing that. A different group of people is now choosing the reap the benefits of a great industry.
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Tell me how you can take a 9 million ton crop out by March. They started later because they had a small crop. They don’t need to start in August for a 9 million crop. They started the factories (if memory serves me right) mid-September. 9 million x 10% shrink / 35000 tons (which was the old standard when your not pushed) gets you out to the first week in May. You don’t start the factories in August unless you have to. The beets are increasing in sugar % very quickly.
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Spot on DB. Paul, you sure seem to have the answers and a great conspiracy theory going. So, I am still not understanding you correctly. This information was made available to growers but you had never posted it so you decided to post it and then you were told not to. So, in all reality, since you had never made a link to it before, therefore you most likely were not to make that information public?
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I will point out one incident in which the replacement workers did not follow procedure, resulting in major down time. Keep in mind that this is just one incident. The diffuser at the Crookston factory tripped out on high amps. The operator is allowed to try to restart this machine once or twice. Well, the operator disregarded procedure and kept hitting the start button until the flighting inside the diffuser was a twisted, useless mess. The diffuser was totally disabled for more than a week. Without the diffuser running, the factory is down. no beets are sliced, period. Proper procedure would have been to flood the diffuser with water to make its contents more fluid or to dump it’s contents onto the floor before trying to start it again. Thus getting the equipment going again without damaging it. This operator error cost Crystal a loss of at least 42000 ton of slice, not to mention the cost of repairs to the equipment and cost of downtime which is many thousands of dollars for every hour the factory is idled. All this while the beets are rotting in piles outside. An experienced operator never would have let this happen.
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You have no clue what you are talking about. A lack of education and reliance on union propaganda put you in the position you are in.
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This will allow the company to become more efficient, cost effective, in time be more automated. The union kept complaining about the current automation when it was being installed, kept whining about having less workers. It is getting tougher to find qualified workers to work in the processing, so further automation would be beneficial in time. I’ve been in some food processing plants where i hardly see anyone around because they have 1 worker to watch over 3 lines to assembly plants where there are many workers.
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Automation has gone on in the factories for years. this is nothing new. The entire proccess has been computerized. they have gone from 130 workers per shift in mhd. to 27 over the years. This automation resulted in the creation of the job I held at Crystal before the lockout. Process technician 1. Altho no one likes to see their job eliminated, we all understood the reasons why.
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translation good bye union
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You & I finally found something we can agree on.
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That is my real name.
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Which Paul Hanson are you? My mom has a cousin by that name. Let’s see a photo. Gene….I’m still waiting for yours. I won’t laugh at you…I promise.
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Oh dear God Sue, I can’t believe you actually wrote that.
Slap your friends and neighbors in the face.
How about handing them the want ads.
Your attitude is why the middle class is failing in this country. After WWII (when the middle class came into its own) a strong work ethic is what made the country strong. People respected WORK.
Not anymore. It is starting to sound like France in here: 4 day work week with three weeks paid vacation every year and double time on holidays.
How about 40 a week as a baseline and saving your butt off so you can retire with enough life left in you to enjoy it. Remember: old fashioned values.
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Yes…You’re in an industry where because of your education you can pretty much write your own ticket because of the demand…..I too am in an industry where because of my vast experience I too can pretty much get good work with decent pay and never have to join a union….(Which I don’t because of the right to work for less laws in ND)…….But the working class is consistently getting less…not more and the CEO’s are getting more by making sure the working class gets less….Even though it’s the working class that is the real heart of the company…Without the working class you have no company.
This is the same all over. Workers are finding they are getting shoved to the side as major companies keep finding new ways to munipulate the government into allowing them to disregard the American workers altogether.
You like WW2 reference then how about how people died to fight against human suppression. Maybe what coporations are doing aren’t quite on the same scale, but if you keep gettin squeezed then personally you might feel it’s getting close. I don’t understand this complete trust of these major coporations by a lot of people……I see bull racks (Livestock trucks) every day with cattle, pigs, turkeys, chickens, and wonder if on their way to the slaughter house if they too think their farmer is just giving them a nice road trip? I get a lot of loads out of Jenni-O and they have a shed where they park the turkey trucks. Above the shed it has a sign that reads “Condemmed” and those dumb old turkeys just sit there with no idea what’s going on with them……Much like a lot of people and what the corporations are doing to them…lets just trust that they’ll do the right thing by us and play fair….Ya right….
The next big job market….Security…..Once the masses start to get fed up…after opening the door wide for them to come in the first place….That’s when it’ll suddenly make sense that there’s something to this collective bargining…But then it’s going to be so much tougher……
One last question FN…Have you ever actually worked a hard labor job where you might have had to get filthy and put up with extreme temps? Somehow I don’t think you have because you almost seem to have contempt for people who do those kind of jobs. The kind of jobs I’m glad I never have to do again, but realize are needed and should be getting adequate pay. I worked at Crystal in the 70′s when there was far less automation. There was some damn hard work back then. Tossing 100lb sugar bags on stacks some 40′ in the air or in box cars. Hell…I never needed some cute little work out place because I worked out daily when working. Then when summer came around it was cement work or brick layers or steel……Working hard deserves just as much fair wages as working much eaiser using knowledge about technical problems….I’m not saying the same wages, but the same consideration for fair wages….
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Exactly Tundra! How is our country supposed to get out of a stagnant economy when the middle class workers are forced to accept less and less while corporate America reaps huge profits. The purchasing power of American workers is in a downward tailspin.
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“There isn’t one person that I know union or not that will ever consider working for them.”
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps since you’re lacking the ability to be objective and mature about the situation, maybe people you know that WOULD consider working there….don’t bring it up in your presence….because it’s obvious how you’d react?
What a lot of union fans don’t get, is that IF we all didn’t HAVE friends, neighbors, and relatives that are among the locked-out, the *anti-union* sentiments would be more vocal than they are. Paul asked earlier why more folks don’t use their full names.
I just summed it up.
When you’re as militant about the issue as some are, it should come as no surprise that people don’t challenge your rhetoric face-to-face. Just don’t mistake their reluctance to “get into it” with you for agreement or support of the side you happen to be on.
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Scott…If it were me…and you want to scab to take my job away…I don’t care if we grew up on the same street…I’d get damn militant on you….because your actions are an act of war on me…So don’t play innocent about one side being squeeky clean while the other side gets upset…..Hell…They haven’t gotten upset enough….Like I said below….You’d never see scabs replacing a real union like the Teamsters…Never ever……
Hot debate. What do you think?
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That is pathetic! You didn’t want the job and didn’t accept the offer. Someone else did, who you now call a “scab”. I call it another American looking for gainful employment.
If I were offered a new contract at my place of employemnt and I turned it down, I would be looking for a new job. I would not be standing in front of my old place of employment looking for sympathy while holding up a sign saying “I just want to work” while spitting on, cursing, and “flipping off” those that did accept the offer that was given me.
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Like you….This really doesn’t have an effect on me one way or other….But what is pethetic is brown nosers who will bask in the trickle down of CEO’s who will do what it takes to put more heft into their own pockets….Until it’s your job….Then you’ll be on your back looking up and wondering where that sucker punch came from……..On the other hand if I was in a union and you wanted to scab….Then you’re damn right……I would be an agitator, and it wouldn’t be for some little spitting action….If you wanted to scab…….It would be a huge endevor…Not a few signs and angry faces…..
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Sue; Please tell me how you feel Crystal has treated their employees like trash…my experience working for the company and yours are completely different…Crystal has always treated me extremely well….I do cross the picket line everyday and I don’t feel that I have slapped anyone in the face…I am making an honest living and because our opinions differ I still consider many union members friends and neighbors…you are entitled to picket and I am entitled to work… more and more employees are crossing..that is the only way that they will be coming back, unless the union chooses to sign the contract and that looks very doubtful. I am not trash either; I love my job and American Crystal Sugar Company.
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“It appears as though ACS is trying to save a buck by forcing out their higher paid employees. If you’re all for that then be ready for that to happen to you.”
They didn’t “force” anyone to do anything. And for what it’s worth, the rest of the working world ALREADY deals with the “threat” of being replaced, or taking a pay cut, or paying more for insurance, etc. You’re apparently unaware of this, but what really bothers a LOT of non-union people, is the completely ridiculous notion that the “rest of us” don’t know “what it’s like”.
Hogwash. (And that’s the most polite way I can say it.)
Folks that have spent any time at all under the union’s umbrella are the ones that really need their eyes opened. These discussion boards have proven that beyond any doubt.
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forcing out the higher priced employee??? by offering them a 17% raise and a cash bonus?? sounds like they were trying to make them higher priced yet.
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Sue; When I cross that picket line I am hurting no one..the people that paid their union dues are hurting themselves…Also I have many years of work for Crystal as have many of the replacement workers so the knowledge is there and we work very well together…..I also don’t need to stand with the union to keep my job, all I have to do is; do a good job..I will stand on my own work ethics to keep my job.
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I admire you Kassie.
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Gayle; You and I are on different levels here..you remain loyal to the union..I remain loyal to Crystal…as I have said before the union vote cost me a lot..I don’t hurt you by going to work..you hurt yourself…the problem with you unionites is you don’t feel anyone has a right to think for themselves…just follow the union thinking…How is that working for you?
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Go get a job and get over it gayle! Kassie is not hurting anyone. You should consider her a role model as to what the rest of you should have done Unless you’re one of the ones not qualified to work in the factory under the new employment qualifications.
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Kassie,
Keep up the good work.
I know a lot of the people that matter (farmers, agronomists, plant engineers, and management) appreciate the hard work you guys are doing. I’ve seen a lot of good, bad and ugly over the years in the plants while doing consulting work. However, there was a lot more good and less of the bad and ugly last year. Many of those “just wanting to work” I know are people that fall into the bad and ugly category and I’m sure those associated with Crystal just want them to go away. This is the only way to do it. Some of them damaged equipment last summer and urinated in the factories. Who had to fix and clean this up? You guys did. Maybe not you specifically. Unfortunately there are some good people that just don’t want to buck the union out of fear or other reasons.
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My dad worked at Crystal for 20 years. He still comes up with new uses for colorful metaphors when talking about the “Union”.
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Gayle; Everything is going wonderful for me…Thank you for asking.
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Old drunks are like that
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Excellent response Kassie!
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You are a great worker, one that obviously works in a place that you love to work in. A true role model that all should look up to.
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Nurse, you really know very little about agriculture. If the sugar program fails they will just plant another crop? Yes they will but it will not be as profitable! Do you realize the input (seed, NITROGEN, and CHEMICALs) that sugar beet farmers pony up every year! This input is ponied up so they can enjoy the profits produced in the fall. If there was a crop that was as profitable as sugar beets they already would be raising it!
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Ron I never said it would be as profitable; I simply said the planters would survive.
It goes back to that resistance to change thing that is such a common thread on these boards.
Change by definition means things are not the same.
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2nd point nurse. Farming would not be what it is today without the farm bill. Federal crop, sugar program, and corn subsadies have changed the face of agriculture. With out these programs the markets would crash. Whoever came up with ethanol was a genius! Let’s encourage farmers to grow more corn in places where corn should not be grown (most of north dakota), add more nitrogen and grow it year after year after year (yes 3 straight years on the same quarter), drive the price of nitrogen up, and to top it all off keep the demand up by adding it to our fuel and making a 10 percent blend cheaper than theother options. Federal crop was created on good intentions but is abused and relied on by some scammers and some farmers farming land that should not be touched. I have 0 gripes about the sugar program it is not uncommon for other countries to add tarrifs to our products so their own product can compete.
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Again Ron, I agree with you, the farm bill has been a mainstay of American politics for decades. That does not mean it will survive.
There are more & more free market types who are against protectionism. They are against subsidies on theological grounds. They believe in the market.
You will not convince these people to continue to support the bill year after year because they believe it is wrong, like they believed Communism was wrong in the 1970-1980s.
Farmers will survive. They have options. ACS employees: not nearly as many.
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This whole thing went on for so long ACS hired and trained new employees. Everybody knew if you stayed locked out long enough you would be replaced. Well now the union has been replaced and my guess is if you want your jobs back you are going to have to undercut the replacement workers on pay in benefits. We all know how you feel about that but guess you should have taken the offer they gave which was a better deal than people with college degrees get
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I like how you referenced the 70s and 80s. That is the reason the farm bill was created. To protect farmers from extreme lows like they saw in the 70s and 80s. Federal crop was created as a protection for farmers so they receive some compensation when a disaster hits (such as drought). The problem is there are abusers of this program all across the country side. Federal crop should not be eliminated but reformed so abuse can be sorted out from a legitamet claim. The crp program was formed so bad land could be planted into grass and create habitat instead of being farmed. There are good programs in the farm bill that will lose funding if eliminated and this effects every political district across the country. Don’t forget food stamps are part of the farm bill. And the school lunch program. And a lot of industry uses agricultural products. You will never eliminate the farm bill! However, It may be reformed.
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Flying nurse, it is not about resistance to shange it is about taking the largest cash crop out of the valley! It would have effects on the economy. Yes growers would plant something else but there would be effects. Let’s look at the options potatos would be an alternative but increased acres would flood the market and drive the price down let alone the increased need for specialized storage. Corn would be an alternative but is a risky crop to raise this far north. Soybeans little input but not the profit margin of the previous 2 options. Wheat same as soybeans. There are options but they won’t be as profitable. What happpens to the 5-6000 dollar land? Will these guys be able to keep up or ever recoupe their investment?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“Why is this even a issue anymore? ”
I think your own post reveals why many folks feel situations like this are an “issue”.
for instance:
“Once they had replacement scabs that had no resistence the battle was over”
What does that mean exactly? What sort of “resistance” do you feel would be appropriate for the replacement workers to meet?
then there’s this:
“It’s basically the old adage of “Good guys finish last” In a strike you either get serious…or go home….”
Please feel free to elaborate. Then follow that up with something that will justify whatever actions are undertaken in the course of “getting serious”.
The reason topics like this are still an “issue” is because of differing attitudes. It really is that simple.
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T beast, your comments make me laugh. Your mad about the ACS lockout becuase your angry towards people with a college degree. I have a college degree and am an educated farmer. If I had to do it over again and farming wasn’t in my plan, I’d go and learn a trade and make some good money. If you haven’t noticed, a bachelors degree is like a high school diploma, everyones got them and it doesn’t mean a whole lot. This whole thing again just shows how blown out of proportion this lockout is and proves the point that with the union it isn’t about the contract here at ACS and it never has been. They are drawing a line in the sand and sacraficing people to try keep union power.
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I dropped college after three years and went into driving (Just couldn’t handle being that poor anymore) So no…I don’t have a problem with college degrees….My point was that there’s a lot of people on here who make comments that infer trade workers should take whatever is offered because they don’t have a college degree. I’m guessing many of those people have never done labor and worked their way through the ranks while picking up trades along the way. We nee those people too, but somehow many in society have this idea that education in universities is the only education worth consideration. What often happens is you get a lot of people who are text and test smart, but show a lot of ignorance when it comes to common sense. I guess that’s why they try to encourage so many intern programs (Free Labor).
I just get a bit upset by so many of these posters who weem to have so much disregard for those who really do the hard jobs they don’t want to do….
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I can only speak for myself, but I have used that comparison a few times on here. I do not think for one second that a communications degree, sorry com majors, or many other degrees make you a better employee or a smarter person than someone who went to trade school or works a certain trade. My comparison is that many of these employees are making better than workers who have degrees. The comparison is not one stating that a college grad is more valuable, it is simply stating that ACS has a very competitive package. People go to college with the intent of landing a job that will pay above average and the idea is that college will open those doors. We are lucky in the valley to have employment opportunities that do not require a four year degree, that is my comparison. Just think about some of these workers who have made a career ACS, they did not have the student loans to pay for, recieved on the job training, and have a very nice income with benefits etc. I just don’t see ACS as the big bad wolf. I certainly can’t see why the union wants to take it down if they don’t get thier way. To me, that is wrecking a great opportunity for the next generation.
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Good points….But to be honest…I’m not in there, and like many on these boards…I don’t even have a dog in this fight. I really don’t know the issues all that well. What burns me is Crystals refusal to adhere to the process of negeotiation. They have basically said to the union to take what we give and be happy you get that…Other wise…Up yours….We have scabs…..If I was a union worker at Crystal….You better bet I’d be an agitator when Crystal has basically declared war on the union….I’d say it’s long past time to make buisness at Crystal…..extremely “Unusual” because the “Usual” aspect has been less than effective.
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T-beast, I feel that you need more facts before you base your opinion. BEFORE the lockout happened, there was an attempt to negotiate with the union. The NLRB, which has been referred to a thousand times, stated that ACS offered significant concessions while the union offered little, if any and made no suggestions. The NLRB is not an ACS attorney, it is a gov’t agency and they tend to side with labor. The union has made thier own bed and now they are lying in it. Secondly, have your read what the offer is. What if a new semi cost you a million dollars, you probably wouldn’t buy it would you. Even if you negotiated down from 2 milllion, it is still out of line. ACS offer is very competitve and the company has negotiated with the union, contrary to what is said in the media.
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Naw…I’m about done for a while again…..I just see all the condesention and general ill will against American labor and it boils my blood….That in a nut shell is why I jump in with jabs of my own…..I’m all for the working class getting a shot at fairness. Granted…I might be on the wrong side of the issues if what you say is right, but I still stand with the workers….If they have bad representation, then that needs to be addressed……
What the hell……I firmly believe most on here probably don’t have a dog in this fight one way or other……..It’s damn easy for those of us who don’t to really bark loud about how the fight should go….And that’s my point…We all need to back off a bit with all the chest thumping…..Either that…Or go to the mats…….But probably better all the way around to back off a notch or two…
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Unfortunately, you have proved a very valid point. You side with labor, therefor you are overlooking any facts that may be out there. Not to pick on you but, there is the possibility that ACS has been decent throughout this and you choose to side with the union based soley on emotion. Its like voting just to vote even though you don’t know what the cadidate truly stands for, it doesn’t make sense.
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Right on all accounts…I have zero trust for upper management in most companies, because I’ve seen too many foolish screw jobs from upper management in my long working life. I do side with labor, even though I haven’t belonged to any union for over thirty year back when I used to do construction. I also did read about the give and take of demands a year ago when this first popped up, but I haven’t kept up with any of it because it’s not my fight.
On the other hand I don’t jump in here on the boards just to be on labor’s side. I jump in when I get offended by the smarmy attitudes towards labor in the issue. When people start acting like they have a superior stance over those who I think are basically caught in the middle of a huge crap fest. That gets my Irish up….And us Patties have been long known as rabble rousers when it comes to things like labor organizing……And that I am…..But what the hell….I don’t know about you, but for me it amounts to very little other than a few key stokes……It has zero efect in the long run other than letting of some steam over others problems…..
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JR Simplot has a Teamsters Union. It is a strong and effective union.
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Sue; I agree with you that Simplot has a great union…I have a daughter, son, grandson and son-in-law who work there….that is an example of how a union should work..they have commented many times that if their union was doing what the BCTGM has been doing to us, they would drop out of it
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Three months into their lockout the Cooper Tire union reps told their members they got all they could for them. This union’s leadership should have done that a long time ago.
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One thing is North Dakota being a right to work state, you don’t have to be in a union to work in a factory or anywhere.
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It appears that no one is respecting the picket lines of BCTGM.
Union millwrights, and Union iron workers (the president of the Minnesota union in fact),are all crossing the line.
BCTGM needs a big dose of Viagra.
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Straight from Webster’s and describes BCTGM and their leadership perfectly!!!!!
im•po•tent
adj \ˈim-pə-tənt\
Definition of IMPOTENT
1
a : not potent : lacking in power, strength, or vigor : HELPLESS b : unable to engage in sexual intercourse because of inability to have and maintain an erection; broadly : STERILE
2
obsolete : incapable of self-restraint : UNGOVERNABLE
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Your comment is in bad taste and is uncalled for creasybear
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And funny as hell!
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ok; Would you please tell us where you got that information….funny thing is they were all at the appreciation banquet last week….no revolting going on at all.
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Just finished camping with my little brother who works in the Drayton Plant. If what you say is true he would have told me.
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Gayle: I will attempt to bring you and your compatriots back to reality AGAIN. The only way management is going to cave is if they are losing too much money. As long as they are making a profit they find acceptable, you will never get a contract on your terms.
So, if I was a locked out worker I would not be on these boards bemoaning what a horrible job the replacement workers are doing. I would be taking out full page celebrating the fact.
The only way you will get your contract is if ACS implodes. As long as they are not, you are out in the cold.
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Why do you keep bringing up what is going on at the plant now??? You are clearly only interested in your own union way of thinking. Trying to make non union people look only to make yourself look better is sad!
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Gayle…I think you need to concentrate more on what you can do to have a job, rather than pretending to care about the company, and trying to worry about their profit/loss statements with the replacement workers! I would guess ACS has a better understanding of profit and loss.
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Kinda hard since they’re shut down for the summer for maintenance.
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Gayle; without union protection an employee can be fired for sitting on their arse….care to name the supervisors who told you that?
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“As I read some of the responses here it seems apparent that many of the people who are anti union seem to have the impression that trade skills aren’t real skills like those that begin with a college degreee.”
There are differences in the way people define, recognize, and reward “skills”. In job advertisements, skills required are often specifically spelled out. On applications, the “skills” section of the app is there so that the prospective employee can detail the skills they’ve obtained that will likely be relevant to more than one position.
Everyone obtains a “skill” on any given job. Minus the “relevance” part of the equation that’s intended to define and differentiate between “skills” that will benefit the employer and the employee because those skills will be useful in more than one situation….we’d have applicants listing all manner of “skills” such as running the french fry machine at McDonalds, or the shopping cart pusher at Target. In either of those situations, I’d probably have my butt handed to me because I possess no “skill” with the french fry machine or the shopping cart pusher.
On the OTHER hand, I have a lot of skills that will translate to other workplaces because those “skills” aren’t so job-specific. You don’t have to agree with what the job market defines as qualifying AS a “skill”, but that doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong.
Google “skilled worker” and see what kind of definitions you come up with.
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“Well we’re not talking about that are we Crystal Man….We’re talking about factorry workers who have trained to learn their jobs to make the factory work and be profitable….If you want to discount that…”
What you’re not getting, is that YOU’RE the one “discounting” things. Don’t the skills people learn on the job elsewhere matter? Do they have less value? Why does work in a production facility get treated differently in situations like this? If there’s a facility on one side of town making widgets and the workforce happens to belong to a union, are the jobs therefore more difficult or dangerous than the jobs at the production facility on the other side of town where the workforce isn’t unionized? Are the union workers *automatically* more skilled or valuable?
Why are YOU discounting the efforts/contributions of the 88% or so of the US workforce that isn’t union?
I like your statement about me getting me arse in there. It’s amusing to me on multiple levels. I’ve had PLENTY of opportunities over the last 30 years or so to work in facilities that are both union and non-union. I’ve worked right alongside of union and non-union workers. I’ve seen first-hand MANY times examples of how anything and everything a union employee does is supposed to be granted some *extra* degree of “extraordinary-ness” just because a union member did it. I’ve seen time and again examples of non-union workers busting their butts to get ANYTHING that needs doing done, while a union worker holds steadfastly onto their specific job description and shrugs off anything that falls outside of that description. I’ve personally seen and put up with the “union attitude” many times. I’m not being vindictive about any of this. All I’m saying is that I’ve seen enough of it FIRST-HAND to form an opinion. Where does the ability to be objective, (because of the scope or broadness of their experience), come from when they’ve worked at the same place, for many years, all the while….under the blanket of a union contract?
It never ceases to amaze me how or why some folks think that nobody knows, (or has seen or experienced any of this)….because they don’t have ACS listed as a prior employer on their resume’.
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I am glad to see that you have done something to help yourself. What you fail to see is that ACS valued your talents and work ethic. What ACS appears to be try to do is weed out the non-hardworking and untalented. From the information on the proposals I’ve read I don’t think you would have had any issues.
It would be interesting to see the offer the Union gave to the company this last Friday. If it was truly an offer they couldn’t refuse. From the outside looking in it appears that the Union is just now deciding to try and negotiate. A little to late if you ask me.
What incentive is there for the company to back away from their final offer? I would say very little.
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Are you implying that there were no issues with people abusing the system or advancing in jobs they aren’t qualified? You know that these are issues that the company as well as employees have been frustrated with for a long time. The relatives and family that I have on both sides of this issue have given me the same examples of people taking advantage of the loop holes in the contract. If the Union was truly willing to acknowledge the problems and work to resolve the issues ACS wouldn’t be forcing the issue.
What a way to for the Union to show how much they value their members by protecting everyone, even the ones that need to be brought back into line.
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A good sport admits when they’re beaten. There is so shame in losing. But there is when you won’t accept defeat.
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If employees were advanced into jobs which they were not qualified for, whose fault is that. Each job posting contains a lengthy and very detailed description of the responsibilities and duties of the job. There is typically a 10 day trial period for the employee before the job is officially awarded. After the trial period, the employee is tested. If the employee fails the assessment, he or she is returned to their previous post. If they pass, the job is theirs. It is the responsability of the supervisor to assess the employees ability. If the job is awarded to an unqualified candidate, I would say that the supervisor is not doing his job. Also if the company finds no one is qualified, a new employee would be hired off the street.
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Gayle….the union lost. The debate is over. It’s time to vote so we can end this thing once and for all.
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Gayle – So you’re saying there are no issues and every Union member has nothing but good intentions, there is no abuse. OK, I’ll pass that along, because apparently my sources are wrong.
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Gayle,
So if supervisor have so much authority to appprove/reject applicants, then why is the company asking for more ability to choose (without being limited to senority) and why is the union fighting this? Your arguments seem to be in conflict with the actions of the union and the company.
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“What a lot of people don’t see is that tha NLRB sees any little thing as significant movement. ”
Then the obvious question becomes why didn’t they see “any little thing” from the union?
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“I have talked to employers who want to hire me when my schooling is done. ”
This is not intended to be disrespectful in any way, but have you been given any indication about the compensation you can expect to receive?
Not just in dollars-per-hour, but overall pay and benefits. How would it compare to the old contract?
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I am going to truck driving school. Depending on the company and the type of driving I would be doing, I could make more money driving a truck than I made working at Crystal.
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If so, I think that’s great. But I did say to not just consider the pay. The complete compensation package needs to be tallied up in order to make any accurate and meaningful comparisons…
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Sounds like it’s time for you to move on.
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What about the NLRB, those documents weren’t written by ACS lawyers.
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At least Crystal has out out something that can be verified or so we can see their side of things. What has the union put out? A few mewsletters full of mis-information. Some viseos of people making the same phone call. Basically they’ve put out a bunch of CRAP.
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Gosh Ron, there IS nothing and there NEVER has been anything preventing the union’s PR machine from troweling something other than the obviously inaccurate, misleading, and incomplete stuff they come up with.
Why doesn’t any of that nauseate you?
Oh, I forgot. They’ve been treated unfairly, and the company is the “bad guy” automatically.
Just because.
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Unlike the fine upstanding “bar fly” union leaders and their record for truthful statements and drunk dialing prank phone call!
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I heard there is going to be a vote on the existing contract on the 23rd, can anybody verify this? It was said that the MN people wanted to vote now since their unemployment will be running out soon and they can’t go without an income. All I could say was “What happened to their solidarity?”
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I hope you are right about the date Gussy. We are planning on coming home that weekend. That would work out great for us.
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