Poll: Property tax ban rejected by 3 to 1 margin
May 14, 2012 at 5:05 pm in Grand Forks Herald
North Dakota voters appear ready to reject Measure 2, a proposal to eliminate property taxes, by a margin of almost 3 to 1.
A Forum Communications poll of 500 likely voters found 74 percent planned to vote against Measure 2 in the June 12 primary, with 26 percent saying they will vote yes. Continue Reading
It will be interesting to see if this holds true come voting day.. I’ve printed this article just to have it for later review.
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Wouldn’t be surprised. Forum Communications have never been exactly objective in its reporting.
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Actually, I really WAS polled. The questions were not leading, but rather straightforward. It was not a push poll. If you say it was, then you were evidently not part of the poll.
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Said a prime contributor to “Say Anything”. You already have your own bias. It’s hard for me to accept your story as objective.
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Tax his land, Tax his bed, Tax the table At which he’s fed.
Tax his tractor, Tax his mule, Teach him taxes Are the rule.
Tax his cow, Tax his goat, Tax his pants, Tax his coat.
Tax his ties, Tax his shirt, Tax his work, Tax his dirt.
Tax his tobacco, Tax his drink, Tax him if he Tries to think.
Tax his cigars, Tax his beers, And if he cries, Tax his tears.
Tax his car, Tax his gas, Find all the ways To tax his ass.
Tax all he has Then let him know That you won’t be done Till he has no dough.
When he screams and hollers, Then tax him some more, Tax him till He’s good and sore.
Then tax his coffin, Tax his grave, Tax the sod in Which he’s laid.
Put these words upon his tomb, “Taxes drove me to my doom…”
When he’s gone, Do not relax, Now, its time to apply Inheritance tax.
And don’t forget –
Accounts Receivable Tax Building Permit Tax Business License Tax Cigarette Tax Corporate Income Tax Dog License Tax Federal Income Tax Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) Fishing License Tax Food License Tax Fuel Permit Tax Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon) Hunting License Tax Inheritance Tax Inventory Tax Interest Income Tax IRS Interest Charges, IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax) Liquor Tax Luxury Tax Marriage License Tax Medicare Tax Property Tax Real Estate Tax Service Charge Taxes Social Security Tax Road Usage Taxes Sales Tax Recreational Vehicle Tax School Tax State Income Tax State Unemployment Tax (SUTA) Telephone Federal Excise Tax Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax Telephone State and Local Tax Telephone Usage Charge Tax Utility Taxes Vehicle License Registration Tax Vehicle Sales and License Tax Watercraft Registration Tax Well Permit Tax Workers Compensation Tax
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Have you paid enough taxes yet? Not 1 of these taxes existed 100 years ago. The reason you can’t afford to fill your tank with gas is because you can’t afford all the other taxes you are already paying. The one that still blows my mind is they are going to tax you when you are dead.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Good points, but then again these “Taxes” haven’t just been pulled from the air just for the sake of building up the coffers. These taxes ar all the result of Wants and Needs….Which in the end often is more a case of wants than needs, So “Let’s drop all those wants” Right? Sounds good…As long as it’s not your or my wants…because after all those are very much “Needs” At least to you or me, but those other peoples wants and needs………
I guess my point is that every time the tax question comes up people act as if some outside force is causing all this when in fact it boils down to you and me. Maybe not directly and maybe not for many of these “Wants and Needs” but in some manner we support a portion of the “Needs” and get angry about other needs we don’t support ….While others are probably angry about those needs that we do.
What can we do? Well we could put a hold on all spending unless we all agree….But where that’s been tried it’s been pure disaster. We can cut the income like measure 2, but then when the boom busts and we still have outstanding bills….We have to find some other back door way to make up for it…….Or we can figure out a sensible system that both curbs the spending by highest priority (Without having to sacrifice the elderly and the poor in the process) while curbing all taxation. Something that makes sense across the board instead of a knee jerk solution to a complex situation….
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You’re exactly right None, pass M2 and eliminate property tax, and You’ll pay even more taxes to make up for all the out-of-state landowners who will then pay NOTHING!
VOTE NO ON M2!!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Anyone know how much would come in if there were no abatements?
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At an M2 “discussion” held in March, I posed a similar question to those spearheading the “discussion”, my County Commissioners . How much property was exempt or had abatements, what is the total assessed value of that property, and what is the total amount of the exemptions/abatements in the county. The main speaker (County Commissioner) promised he would get that information for me.
True to his word, a month and a half later I received a small envelop in the mail. Encosed was a small piece of yellow legal paper with a hand written note explaining that the information requested wasn’t readily available. He shared that in responding to his request for the information the County Tax Director replied that she had never compiled a list. After a couple weeks the County Tax Director told him that there are about 400 exempt farm houses in the county. He added that she didn’t give him a number of business or dollar amounts.
Please tell me why we don’t know how much we are giving away?? Where is our accounting? For crying out loud all property has a value. Each and every property in the county has a status. We should have readily available the number of properties in each county (the entire state), the assessed value of those properties, and the tax status of each of those properties.
Private business couldn’t afford to operate like that. How can we trust them to handle our business when they can’t even account for what they are or are not collecting tax on. Geez! Guess I being a bookkeeper and business grad I expected more. Was the computer just invented a couple years ago? Make an Excel spreadsheet or use some sort of software to track this stuff. ITS IMPORTANT INFORMATION!!
That’s my rant. Thanks.
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Let me add to your rant. My daughter was looking for a house to buy last year. We were interested in finging out what the taxes were on the properties she was interested in so pulled up the county records. I could not BELIEVE how many houses are exempt from paying property taxes! And not in just one area of town, it was all over Grand Forks. Out of curiosity, I pulled up several houses in different neighborhoods and always found exemptions. How do these people get exemptions, why are they getting them, and how much money are we talking here? Every county in ND should provide the information that you and I are asking about before the election. If they can’t or don’t want to, that’s more than enough reason for me to vote ‘yes’ on Measure 2. They’re either incompetent or they’re hiding something. If not—DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION!
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In the cities of Fargo West Fargo, Bismarck Mandan, Minot, Grand Forks they exempted almost a billion dollars worth of property, this is the discretionary exemptions they track not the exemptions they give to churches or the homes on farms, this the exemptions the cities are giving to attract businesses etc. The amount of these exemptions they gave would be like exempting all the residential property taxed in thirteen counties. See it at bbuz.biz/big_give_away With the present property tax system the winners and losers are being chosen by these cities, with Measure 2 it will stop the picking of winners and losers. 60% of the corporate income tax collections are from out of state, we would be tapping into that out of state money with Measure 2. Vote Yes
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While our North Dakota state taxes are not totally fair, we probably can agree that the Federal taxes (and especially where they are being spent on) are not fair.
People complain generally about fair taxes. IMHO, the taxes in North Dakota are mostly fair. Its most of the Federal taxes that are not.
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Oops! that shoult be UNfair taxes.
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and as a follow-up…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oyu5sFzWLk8#!
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In truth, I do expect M2 to fail. I don’t think we can be fortunate enough to eliminate the property tax.
The fear-mongering will rule the day.
What scares me are the reasons given for rejecting M2. Example: “Another 11 percent reject Measure 2 because it could cause government to run out of money. ”
As if a government could run out of ways to tax us.
What scares me even more are the reasons for ACCEPTING M2.
Example “Among those planning to vote for Measure 2, the leading reason, cited by 47 percent of those favoring the repeal, was the belief that the state’s surplus revenues from other taxes would make property taxes unnecessary. ”
That’s just “Fantasy Land”. Never in the history of the world have taxes been eliminated and not replaced somehow.
The best reason to vote “Yes” on M2 is that it removes Government’s right to throw you out of your house (for non-payment of property tax.) You aren’t “leasing from the Government” any more.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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People are afraid of change…mostly because there has been little explanation how schools and services will be handled between the state and the local level.
Right now eliminating property taxes would be welcome to most…but the fear of/ or little or no practical understanding of a plan going forward, and feeling of possibly losing control or slowing things down at the local level because of bureaucracy’s between the local and the state level that could arise is the determining factor for many. There has been too little communication on this issue for many.
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Many are so willing to give away their freedom and their rights. They do not see M2 for what it is… the enforcement of the right to own property, free from government interference.
My home is bought and paid for 100%. I’m in good standing with my lender. I’m only in good standing with the County Tax Director one year at a time, one tax payment at a time, and it never stops. It is never paid in full. I’m required to keep paying, and paying, and paying every year until I either sell the property or loose the property to the county for failure to pay taxes.
Vote M2 if you believe that government has no right to continually tax that which you have paid for with wages that which tax has already been paid on. That is… taxing that to which tax has already been applied. UNFAIR!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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When it come right down to it…Most who worry about losing “Freedom and/or rights” have never lived someplace where it’s a reality rather than a concept to tout as a scare tactic. Because if you ever have found yourself in such a situation….You’d find a night and day difference between what you’re thinking of and the reality of living in that situation…..These little tax issues don’t even come within the same galaxy of that reality….I know from a short experience of the real deal….This stuff is nothing compared to that reality…
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Agreed, Tundrabeast, nor do I ever wish to live under such conditions. Basic human rights and freedoms are squelched all over the world and yes, our tax issues are insignificant compared to what is happening everyday in countries around the world. If you knew me beyond a post here or there, you would know me to be quite compassionate to the plight of others who have far less freedom than I. Because I’d enjoy exercising my freedoms and rights makes me no less compassionate. In fact, I believe that when freedoms are not taken seriously or exercised, that is when they are lost and once a freedom is lost it is very difficult to restore. Just my thoughts.
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Sorry…I was feeling a bit owly and made a biger deal out of it than I needed to. I’ve just heard too many on the right make such referrences to things that really aren’t that drastic….But I do agree that we need to protect our rights or they will slip away….Much like agreeing to be treated like you’re guilty of something just so you can board a plane…..I haven’t flown since because I refuse to be treated like a criminal just to board a plane. I can understand security, but what they do is basic violation of our rights no matter how you frame it. People are willing to put up with it both out of fear, and because they don’t think there’s any other way……Well It seems that there is better ways used around the world, but apparently we choose to allow these instead of insisting on better ways……Off topic, but you get the point…
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Then again I am a truck driver so I guess my not taking a plane isn’t all that unusual in the first place….
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It will be interesting to say the least.
I guess if you live outside of the larger cities like Grand Forks and pay a pittance in property taxes you would be all for keeping it.
But those who live in the city itself and are taxed at a level almost 10X that of the out lying areas you may have a different opinion.
I personally feel that my property taxes are absolutely insane considering the modest value of my home.
However, i do not believe the tax should go away.
To completely drop the tax in its entirety is foolishness on a grand scale, it will hurt the states economy something fierce.
Maybe next year we can get a vote on the ballot that actually makes sense.
Lower all property taxes by 50%.
TADA!
Wow, Logic at its finest.
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I would like to add a law to the ND constitution that states no school board can build a school without a majority of the voting district approving. I really do wonder how the Fargo School Board just had 40 Million laying around in the budget to build a school without voter approval.
This singular issue is what has me debating to vote in favor of measure 2.
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Education is the one area where tax money is an investment. I don’t understand the mind set of once someone own childern are out of the system that suddenly they no longer see a need to keep up with population or decaying buildings? In fact I just can’t grasp how the right wing has actually made the one thing we used to look at as a huge plus as something so negative.
When I was a kid we had great puublic schools with a lot of great programs. That was because the people really didn’t think twice about making sure that we had both an adequate number of schools and schools with enough funding to do a good job. Now days schools seem to rank someplace below prisons in importance…..And maybe that has something to do with needing to build more prisons in so many states.
Hell…I have no school age childern, but I have no problem with my taxes going towards education because like I said before…..It’s one area that is an investment that has a viable return.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I never said that I didn’t support education. What I don’t support is School Boards being able to spend 40 million dollars WITHOUT a vote of the populous that it impacts. It took West Fargo three times to get a good bonding bill passed. The first one was for 60+ Million, the second for 40+ Million.. Both failed miserably. The last and final was for 85 Million. As long as the public can see the perceived value of the addition and ask the questions that we should be allowed to ask I don’t think anyone truly has an issue.
It is our job as a tax paying public to be watch dogs on how that money is spent and to hold people accountable. There are to many people who don’t ask the questions and don’t demand the answers.
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I think we had this debate last time didn’t we? I sometimes forget on these….Start to get like the Sioux name game people and go around and around with the very same arguments…
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Capt Amerika, I think you are blurring the difference between special assessments and property taxes when you complain about Grand Forks taxes being higher than the county’s. (By the way, I own rental property in Grand Forks, so I know you are exaggerating.) Special assessments will NOT be ended if Measure 2 passes. In fact, I worry that we could end up with more special assessments than we currently have.
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Kevin, you really bring up people living off their government checks when you have admitted that your get some large tax credits due to investments that significantly reduced your Federal tax burdon to a point where it is less than your ND taxes? Sounds like you are living off a government program too, just not one that cuts you a check directly.
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That’s just the way of the right. How many on the right have been caught doing this on a grand scale? Good ol’ Bachmann is just one, and a very good example indeed. She’s moned and groned against any kind of help for those who needs it the most while her and her husband has milked the government for several subsidies…With that age old attitude of “But we deserve it?”
So you see Cascade…It’s only a hand out if you’re not a right winger….But if you are…Then it’s a “God Given Right” For being on the right…I guess…Who knows how they justify it?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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In the news recently.. North Dakota surpassed Alaska in Oil Production. Why is there not any tax relief in this State? Why don’t we hear from our conservative House Leader who is vocal on everything else that they are planning on some kind of tax relief?
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Although that’s not a bad point, I’m pretty sure that money is being used towards other state projects that because of the money taxes stay level instead of getting raised. A certain amount gets saved for a rainy day fund like in case we find ourselves in a massive drought or wet period ….Imagine if Ag is severly damaged for a year or more. Think of how that would have a ripple effect throughout the state. If you don’t think that can happen, then you haven’t been around long enough….I’ve seen prolonged periods of both and it isn’t pretty. Not being prepaired would be more than a mistake…it would be drastic.
One last thing that money from oil needs to be set aside if they learned anything from the last boom…That’s to help places like Williston when the boom busts and suddenly they find themselves overwhelmed with bills from all the extras they had to put in to make way for the fast growing population…….Man there was some nasty problems after the last big boom, and then those in the west who had to share the wealth suddenly had to beg the rest of the state to help them, and that wasn’t the slam dunk you’d think it would be to help fellow Nodaks…….I bet there’s still a lot of people in the west who have zero trust for us in the east when it comes to stae decisions and taxes…..
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Well you know what.. Alaska figured out how to pay for all of that stuff and then some. Then to top it off they actually give oil dividends to residents. Who’s finger is in our pie where our taxes continue to go up but they can give rebates?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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One difference is that oil is a major part of their economy. They’re not an Ag based economy like ND so their needs and concerns are bound to be different than ours. Location is another huge factor. Because of their location it’s very costly for shipping to AK so the people have more need for the oil money just to make ends meet….Ends like “Heating”….Something we do know about, but because of our overall economy and possibly cheaper cost than AK is not in too bad of shape.
You can’t just compare AK to ND without looking at the whole picture…Just like you can’t just look at cutting out a primary tax base without looking at the whole picture too. That’s not to say that the issue should die if defeated, but hopefully something more sensible will be considered that works for the whole than the parts….
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On the other hand, wages are a lot higher too. My daughter moved up there and for essentially the same job more than doubled her salary.
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You can say the same about NY and many places along the eastern sea board. Yes the wages are high….But so is the cost of living. AK, NY and most of the east coast if considerably higher for everything out there….There’s a saying out there when pricing things “That’s East Coast Pricing” They knid of take it matter of factly that everything is going to be higher….So naturally the wages have to be much higher too…
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Make developers pay for the infrastructure. End of problem. There’s no excessive debt owed by the local government.
The developers make all the profit from the sale of the houses/buildings. Time for them to accept the risks instead of throwing legitimate business expenses onto the taxpayer.
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I’m afraid that the legislature will be more interested in giving the surplus to their buddy (out of state ) corporations.
Watch and see how many tax reductions will be proposed in the next legislature, to businesses and corporations.
This oil surplus should be spent on infrastructure (highways, bridges, etc.).
Ed Schafer already started the effort to give oil companies tax breaks. Oil company lobbyists will be at this legislature lobbying for the same thing.
Don’t allow tax breaks to corporations. The world population needs black gold and the price will not go down at the pump if the oil companies are given tax breaks. Sorry Unlce Eddie, we are smarter than you think.
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I agree, I used to respect Ed Schafer, until he sold out to the oil companies
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The way it was explained to me at an M2 meeting is that tax cuts have been made at the state level only to be raised at the local level to make up for the shortfall.
In my county it’s getting just absurd. The M2 issue is front and center in the local news. Right beside is is an article that informs us of the assessed values on individual homes being raised. Right along side that is an article about the discussion at a county commission meeting in which a request was made to send to collections economic development loans (property tax $$ at work), to grant a new economic development loan for $1 million, and to approve tax exemptions on several properties.
Stop the insanity!
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Its exactly what happened in Cass County. The State gave tax relief and Cass County promptly set out the assessor to up the property evaluations. I was so disgusted I wrote several letters to my local State Representatives and their answers was “What do you expect us to do? We gave you the tax relief you asked for.”
What I do know is None’s post above is how I feel. At every corner I am taxed. If you really look at it, in some areas you are taxed two and three times on the same dollar after all of the taxes are taken out of your check. There is no more stretching of my income.
I hear statements on the radio that ‘Taxes are at an all time low’ and I about spit.. Really, then that means fees, hidden fees, alternate forms of taxation and rock hard core government theft is on the rise. I work longer, harder and continually make less every year.. But I’m being told that I should be happy because I don’t pay anything in taxes. The next time I hear McFeelum or Hietcamp say, wouldn’t you pay for xyz my response will be ‘Yep, with your paycheck.’
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I hope the measure doesn’t pass, but that doesn’t mean it fails. A clear message is being sent from ND taxpayers. Enough is enough. I say, oppose the measure and give your elected officials a chance to react. North Dakota is the number 2 oil producing state. A larger portion of oil income could be sent back to the cities with levy limits and levy reduction requirements attached.
Of course, that needs to be considered after sending gobs more to the oil patch. There’s nothing
wrong with a healthy fund balance and reserves, but I say vote NO on the measure and give your
legislators a chance to fix some of this.
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They’ve already had a hundred years to fix it. How much more time do they need?
Unless they’re PUSHED into action, we’ll have the Second Coming before they get their poop in a group.
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Did you know that 60% of NDtans have a college degree? 48% Bachelors or better? Did you also know that 17% of NDtans have a graduate or other professional degree? Why, only 19% of NDtans have a high school/GED level education.
According to those polled, that is.
According to the US Census, only 5.5% in North Dakota have a graduate or professional degree, only 16% have a bachelors degree, and fully 27.9% are high school grads.
What do you think the odds are that a polling company could randomly sample only to get such a non-representative portion of the population? The poll is absolutely meaningless, as their “random sampling” is not representative of the people of the State.
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Wonderfully said.
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I too find polls I disagree with as being totally off base….But the ones I do agree with…Well those have to be right…Right? Actually I don’t give much credence to any poll because by their very nature they can be interpreted pretty much the way you want. I just find it amusing to watch people reject some poll as being pure nonsense, and then down the road when there’s a poll in their favor then suddenly poll really hit it on the head just right…
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By the way…..If you were from around here…You’d know we’re Nodaks….not that home spun “Tans”…Pretty amusing though…
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One thing this poll tells us those saying they will vote no, the major concern was funding. My concern is when did we as people become more concerned about government being funded and not concerned with being taxed at a rate that is exceeding most pay raises. 7.7% increases in property tax is not sustainable, this is the increase trend. A business in my hometown received almost 50% increase in property tax.
We are now number 2 in oil production, Alaska slipped to number 3 and they give their citizens a check every year. Our School Lands fund has grown to almost 2 billion in a year and they are not giving this money to reduce our property tax by taking on some of the school needs we are paying with our property tax. The state is taking in over $4.8 million dollars a day, Yes a day in revenue. How much money coming into our state will be enough for people in our state to say lets not tax ourselves out of our home, lets not deplete our family income for the sake of government? This poll shows people are more worried about government being funded than their own families. Self preservation is necessary in order to sustain life! How much money would the state of North Dakota have to have in surplus to get rid of any tax? Apparently 5 times the amount of property tax is not enough to get rid of property tax. Or have our schools done such a poor job in the math department no one gets what a billion is or 5 times is?
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Hedging all your bets on an oil boom is just foolish. A boom is just that and as in the past the boom can and will bust and when that happens everything dries up really quick…..I lived out west during and after the last boom….My favorite bumper sticker that said it all…”If you bring back the oil…We promise not to screw it up this time” Hopefully they learned their lessons from putting all their eggs in the oil basket with the idea they’ll always be riding high on the hog…but I doubt it. Just because the oil prices are high now doesn’t mean they’ll remain so. To bet otherwise is just that…a gamble…
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One thing this poll tells us those saying they will vote no, the major concern was funding. My concern is when did we as people become more concerned about government being funded and not concerned with being taxed at a rate that is exceeding most pay raises. 7.7% increases in property tax is not sustainable, this is the increase trend. A business in my hometown received almost 50% increase in property tax. We are now number 2 in oil production, Alaska slipped to number 3 and they give their citizens a check every year. Our School Lands fund has grown to almost 2 billion in a year and they are not giving this money to reduce our property tax by taking on some of the school needs we are paying with our property tax. The state is taking in over $4.8 million dollars a day, Yes a day in revenue. How much money coming into our state will be enough for people in our state to say lets not tax ourselves out of our home, lets not deplete our family income for the sake of government? This poll shows people are more worried about government being funded than their own families. Self preservation is necessary in order to sustain life! How much money would the state of North Dakota have to have in surplus to get rid of any tax? Apparently 5 times the amount of property tax is not enough to get rid of property tax. Or have our schools done such a poor job in the math department no one gets what a billion is or 5 times is?
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A 50% increase in one year seems horrible, but what I infer is that the business was never paying its fair share to begin with. I have been paying property taxes for nearly 40 years and have never seen an increase anywhere near 50%. I remember one large increase on a rental property, but I knew it was coming. The property had been valued too low for a long time. Sometimes an “exhorbitant” increase is required to be fair. People who get breaks all their lives always scream when they suddenly have to start carrying their weight like others have all along.
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Allowing government to determine what is “fair” is like allowing a fox to judge what’s off-limits in a barnyard.
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The government is us. I often disagree with what the government does, but I know that we are a government of the people. I can’t always get my own way, even if I am always right and absolutely fair-minded…at least in my own mind.
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What we need is property tax relief for the primary home of residents.
This should include a credit of some kind for someone renting.
The property tax should remain on vacation homes, property owned by out of state residents, and businesses.
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Vote Yes and we will have no property tax on our primary resident. Vote No and we still have everything taxed, with NOthing changed.
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This must mean there are 3 people on the dole for every one in the productive private sector in ND.
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Kevin, I am one of the three that is supposedly on the dole. If you pay as little federal inocme tax as you must (since you pay 5 times as much in state taxes), I am guessing that I pay considerably more than you in federal income taxes. You have made a number of statements that I thought made sense. This one wasn’t one of them.
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