Frank Hurt, BCTGM Union president, column: Lockout ruins communities, smothers dream
May 5, 2012 at 7:05 pm in Grand Forks Herald
This union goes into every set of negotiations looking for a fair and equitable settlement. The BCTGM concludes nearly 99 percent of our negotiations without a work stoppage, one of the best records in the labor movement. Continue Reading
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“Kicked to the curb.” This statement makes it sound like it was a one sided action. Think instead of the union as a contractor. This contractor, by a vote of the workers, chose not to work for the package that was offered. ACSC found another contractor that would.
As for the records set in the previous campaign, I believe the employees did have a role in that. Those employees must also credit the management that makes the acreage decisions, the world market that determines the value of the sugar, the weather that provided nearly ideal storage conditions for the beets last year, the plant geneticists that have improved the yield and sugar content of the beets, the outside contractors that work on all the capital improvements that help make it possible to break all those old records, and the farmers who year after year plant their money in the ground and invest in the plants so they get a return on their investment. For the union to say “We made this all possible!” is beyond pride, obviously. It is blind ego on the part of the union.
I believe the success of the company has to be given to individuals, numerous ones union and non union alike who have taken it upon themselves to apply their talents and skills to do their job well. Those individuals must hold the union leadership accountable for making bad decisions and pasting “Kick me” signs on the back sides of each of the employees it represented. Take another look and see who “Hurt” you the most.
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The union is way to hung up on Dave Berg’s salary. He runs a very large company. His salary is low compared to other companies of the same size. He could leave the RRV and make more money elsewhere. He’s a strong leader and this is what the union has a problem with. The man knows his stuff. He prepared the company in advance for this round of contract negotiations. The growers in the RRV know they are lucky to have him running their company. The union doesn’t want to accept that though. They would rather continue to harp on a non-issue instead of facing reality. They have nothing to gain by continuing the lockout. Vote yes in June.
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Perhaps it could be to take control of the company again!
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Frank, how bout your union approach to say no to everything and disrupting(sabatoge, picket line harassment) operations at ACS to TRY and make the factories inoperable for the season? How bout your lack of negotiation requests and your inability to follow guidlines set forth in the informal meetings in January? You bet big and lost, ACS was prepared for your tricks and there are no cards left in your hand. This is your letter to save face and you will walk away from yet another Keokuk taking no responsibility for horrible leadership all while still recieving a large paycheck from the folks you put out of work. The “transient” workers spent a large amount of money in our communities and they are being phased out by local people who see a great opportunity. I don’t see Berg, Talley, or Ingulsrud writing op ed articles in the papers trying to place blame on others, sometimes what you don’t say is more of a statement than anything.
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I applaud you George, concise, factual, and to the point. Very well said sir.
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You have to be kidding me Gayle. I thought it was well known and accepted by now that there was plenty of sabotage. I thought you former employees were rewarded for the good job you did (your post at 9:53am) and would have had plenty time to complete the typical repairs. However the repairs that were being done were not typical. There are videos of former employees sabotaging the factory and sugar containers, why do you think the union was so worried about who would be able to return to work. Some of the union members did very inappropriate things that have hurt members that are good working people (probably the saddest part). Those members will not be allowed to return to work and will face criminal charges. It is sad that all the members are getting fed lies from their union, starting with the lies from Mr. Riskey and representation from Mr. Ripplinger.
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If in fact there was sabotage, those responsible should be held accountable. Im am proud to say however that I took no part in it. I did my job just as i did everyday, Well. I also know that those working around me also did there job well. Factory start-up is difficult and stressfull enough without having to worry about problems caused deliberately. I do know however that contractors made many mistakes that had to be fixed by our Mechanical workforce. A sugar boiling pan actually blew up because contactors installed a steam valve backward. High pressure steam is very dangerous to say the least. Management dropped the ball by not checking on proper function before putting this valve into use. It was standard procedure before the beginning of every campaign to check for proper function of every piece of equipment in the factory before starting it up.
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Absolutely Anon. A hot meal, an A+ from David Berg and a 9 month lockoutis more than generous. LOL. What was I thinking!
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“You pay for what you get. ”
Unless of course you’re being *told* to pay for something.
Loosely translated, that means that if the company recognized the skill level required to do the job(s), AND…took into account how well those job(s) were being done, what would be the role of the union here? Either the company doesn’t know how much skill is required, or they can’t recognize a job well done. Or both.
In any case, under a contract, they’re not “paying for what they get”, because they aren’t being ALLOWED to do so. They tried to “pay for what they’re getting”, and you said “nope”. Twice.
So here we are.
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Exactly Gary!!
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“They brought in non-skilled labor to run a factory, and let’s face it. They couldn’t get the job done.”
Since ACSC is now done slicing, it appears as though they did get the job done and it must not take much skill to run these factories.
Please explain to me again why the union should get payed so much to do a job that apparently anyone off the street can do?
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Jo, You were informed 2-3 weeks before the end of July that if the contract wasn’t approved that you would be locked out. Plenty of time for a little hanky panky in the factories.
Don’t give us that I didn’t know BS. Unless you had your head buried in the sand.
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We did not know if the contract was going to be approved or not. We offered to work under the old contract until a new one could be settled. And no, we were not going to strike. We had a no strike clause in the contract!
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Jo, the contract expired on July 31st, then the no strike or lockout clause went away. How long did they offer to extend the contract? The strategy would have to been to ask for a 3 month extension then go on strike. True, there was no actual threat of a stike vocalized but when some of the negotiating team wore t-shirts that said willing to strike the implied threat was there.
Also, don’t try and tell me that once beets were being processed the contract said you couldn’t strike. I have a copy of the old contract and it’s not in there.
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Well Gayle, I guess we should treat every loaf n jug employee like crap then. You know exactly the behavior that I am talking about and it is the reason Bradkey, Ripplinger, and Nelson are all in trouble. The woman whos car Ripplinger dove into, don’t you feel bad for her after being accused by him for intentionally trying to hit him. You don’t know any of these peoples story. Argue as you may, but you’ve run out of merit and your rational is based 100% on emotion which is mainly anger. You can always tell when someone is out of options, thats when the blame is placed on others. As far as sabatoge, I am sure that 90% of the workforce did not, but there are ones that did. That is why a number of employees have been notified. You can bet that ACS has indisputable evidence of it also. It is extremely hard to fire someone, especially with union representation, without having absolute proof that it was said employee.
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Gayle, no offense or anything, but you are not serious are you? Brad Knappers was not found innocent. He never went to trial becuase he took the plea deal. He payed for the damage he caused and bowed out like a wuss if he truly was innocent. Not sure where you are getting your information, but just read the newspaper from a day or two ago, it will explain everything for you. Oh, and Gary, I hope your doctor doing your triple bypass surgery is unionized and made it to your surgery based on seniority. Tell me how the operation goes……maybe I guess
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“He was found not guilty.”
Now THAT’S funny.
You haven’t simply consumed the union Kool-Aid in beverage form, you must be snorting the powder straight from the package. Perhaps an intervention is in order.
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Sorry Gayle, Knappers was not found “not guilty”, it never went to trial. He paid for the damages to get the charges dropped. Something an innocent person wouldn’t have had to do.
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Yeah Jo, that scratch magically appeared after the car drove by Knapper. Get real. Common practice is to have a defendant pay his fine and the charges are dropped on a minor charge. Doesn’t make them innocent. Just makes life easier for the county.
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“Many of the replacement workers are still wet behind the ears and the only thing they have on their reseme is the Loaf and Jug. ”
If the company is hiring people that ARE wet behind the ears and the only other thing ON their resume’ is the Loaf and Jug, then what does that indicate? It certainly doesn’t sound like skill, education, and experience are among the prerequisites. This isn’t personal or meant to come off as insulting by the way. But please give some other examples in which skilled laborers are, or can be, replaced by people whose only other work experience is the Loaf and Jug?
(Not attempting to insult any Loaf and Jug employees that may be reading this either. Gayle on the other hand….just might be.)
This isn’t meant to come off as insulting either, but “overhauling pneumatic valves” isn’t nearly as impressive as it sounds.
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Overhauling Pnuematic valves is just one of the things I did Scott. I also ran conduit, water lines, overhauled valve positioners and actuators, set up transducers, welding and cutting and other duties as assigned. I was a mechanic helper during intercampaign. During the processing campagn I was a process technician 1. I and 5 other PTs per shift ran the entire factory from one end to the other from a complex computer system. Every week the six of us would rotate stations, so yes, I know how to run the entire factory. Tell me how experience from working at a convenience store would prepare you for this sort of job. Crystal spent millions training me and others like me only to lock us out and start from the bottom to train in new hires with absolutely no experience. Tell me this makes economic sense.
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I get what you are saying Gayle but the company is willing to move on without the union employees. That is the gist of it. It’s cold but it’s reality. We need to realize that and save the jobs we can.
I want to add this…you sound like a very talented individual. I couldn’t do the job you are doing. I admire you and the rest of the women that have worked at ACS over the years. I hope and I pray that you can go back to work there very soon.
I know one thing…the class that is finishing CDL classes at Northland College this week found out they could not get jobs working with M bar D without permission from ACS because of their association with them. Granted there are other jobs in the community but I did find that interesting.
Please vote yes in June so people can go back to work.
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“Crystal spent millions training me and others like me only to lock us out and start from the bottom to train in new hires with absolutely no experience. Tell me this makes economic sense.”
It doesn’t HAVE TO make “economic sense” to you. ACS knows what it *costs* to bring employees up to speed. Apparently, they’ve done the math and it doesn’t make “economic sense” to them to continue to pay what it costs them for the type of contract you had. Additionally, the only two available options WERE NOT to continue paying for the contract as it existed, OR, take on and train a new workforce. There was another option….and you declined it.
Once again, this isn’t personal at all, nor is it directed solely at you, but when locked-out workers talk about all of the “skills” they possess, AND….then say those skills were learned on the job through training and/or on the job experiences, it seems kind of narrow-minded to keep talking about the “unskilled” replacements. If the “unskilled” replacements are “unskilled” because they came into the job that way, then what were you?
Were you *automatically for some reason* a “better” or more “valuable” unskilled worker when you came aboard?
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The point everyone is trying to make is that the company trained you and they’ll train your replacement also.
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Gayle, where did the $1400 go if not to the van owner for restitution? Was it a fine? An innocent person wouldn’t have to pay a fine.
If he was found innocent, why did he pay anything?
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Gayle, everyone was new once, even you. Could be a lot of the replacement workers come from parts of the country where their aren’t many jobs.
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Brian calls it typical because unlike the union he is taking the high road on that issue. There are statements that are appropriate for private and public and ACS has done the right thing each time.
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George, What happened at the January informal meeting? Were you there?
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Chris, I was not at the informal meeting. You can read about it and the guidlines set forth by both sides was to be a couple representatives from both sides talking informaly to try and make some headway in this mess. Instead, the union showed up with the whole negotiation team, asked to break and then presented a formal offer. Then went directly to the media and complained ACS would not negotiate.
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What an unfortunate column to come out of Maryland. How poetic that Mr. Hurt submits his column on the same day that ACS completes it’s slice of the 2011 crop. Mr. Hurt convinced the locals that ACS could not possibly operate without union help. He was so wrong. But his mistake hasn’t cost him anything. Meanwhile, our region is left to bear the strain of his poor advice.
Mr. Hurt refers to the replacement work force as “…transients…” Is he not aware that over 800 local people have since been hired to run these factories? It is a long way to Maryland so maybe this will be news to him.
If the BCTGM was not intending to strike, why did the union provide t-shirts to the bargaining team that said “will strike if provoked” and wear them to a meeting with ACS?
I believe that history will show that the misery being felt by our region will land on the shoulders of Mr. Hurt and his national team at BCTGM. Mr. Berg and Mr. Talley did what had to be done when a union has gone off of the deep end.
ACS has shown the world what they are offering. Check it out at http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/ and then try and find out what the BCTGM has contributed to the discussion. Good luck with that hunt.
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Well, if they weren’t local before they are now. An influx of new people to fill the empty houses and shop in ND & MN. Sounds like an economic benefit. I don’t see a downside.
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Takes time and money to get new plates, usually one of the last things someone does after they move to a new area.
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Where the hell are the tshirts that said “will strike if provoked?” Thats a new one.
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My guess would be that it is on the monkey hanging on a noose in front of the confederate flag
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Many of the current workforce are former union workers that made a choice to leave a union they supported thru dues, with nothing in return.
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Only a handful of us have crossed the line Stormy. Crystal has however hired back a quite a few employees that they have fired in the past.
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Mr. Hurt has lots of valuable “information” to share, this quote is typical….and one of my favorite bits of his expertise and wisdom:
“Moreover, we know that the company was planning this lockout many months in advance — long before negotiations even began. Common sense tells us that a company does not replace 1,300 workers at five sophisticated and massive manufacturing facilities entering a critical phase of production without very extensive preparation. ”
So Mr. Hurt, you’re ADMITTING that the plant operations would undoubtedly be affected during the time period in which the negotiations and subsequent lock-out were occurring because, (in your own words), the plants are “sophisticated” and the time period we’re discussing is a “critical phase” of production.
AND YET, you think it’s some sort of “evidence” of something when you say the company “planned” for a lock-out. What should the company have done Mr. Hurt? Should they not have made any plans?
Typing up a letter from miles away is easy. I’d prefer to see some face-to-face debate. I know it would never happen, but what would go down IF it ever took place is worth pondering. Taking a peek at Mr. Hurt’s employment history is enough to make it glaringly apparent that he hasn’t experienced life outside of the union bubble since the fifties. His lack of experience outside of “the bubble” wouldn’t exactly serve him well if he were faced with any question-and-answer or speaking-off-the-cuff situation.
He can’t be objective. It’s impossible. He’s completely disconnected from reality and will toe the line of the union’s bigger agenda at any cost. Unfortunately, the *at any cost* part of that…..comes at NO COST to him. And yet there he stands….shaking a “shame on YOU” finger at the company, while HE and his allegiance to the bigger agenda are treating the locked-out workers as pawns….
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The fact that both sides planned for this lockout well in advance of any negotiations has been well documented. The union knew the company was going to demand an end to seniority and a closed shop and the company knew the union would not accept either.
The battle lines were indeed drawn 18 months ago. There is no denying that. I find it disingenuous to say the least that this man would act like it came as a surprise.
What has been playing out on the picket line and in the paper was preordained many moons ago. Both sides knew it was coming and prepared for it. To act like the aggrieved party is simply false.
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This mafia union leader certainly has an appropriate name. The only people ‘hurt’ by these leadership clowns are their members……union rank ‘n file really need to wake up!
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So Mr. Hurt had a meeting with Mr. Berg and Mr. Talley 8 months before the lockout. Let me speculate as to what happened next.
Mr. Hurt calls a meeting with Mr. Bertelli, Mr. Froemke and Mr. Riskey. He says “I met with Berg and Talley. It went fine, but we all know that our 40 year old contract language is going to come under fire. This is what we need to do. We really need a fight that we can win right now. Keokuk, IA was a disaster http://www.dailygate.com/articles/2011/12/29/news/dgc1667107.txt and we need to rebound so that BCTGM doesn’t become irrelevant. We can’t compromise on anything with ACS. As a matter of fact, lets throw this http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/bctgm.proposal.pdf at them and really force the issue. We will do that in May of 2011 and then we won’t offer anything for at least a year because I can tell you from here in Maryland that there is no way that those factories will slice an entire crop without union help. ACS will cave in and we will be back in the driver’s seat for a long time to come. Let’s remember; we have Sydney Sugars, Southern Minn and many other contracts that will be renegotiated soon. This is going to be very hard on 1,300 of our members but that is a small number if you consider our national membership. Trust me, boys. We need this. Meeting adjourned.”
Only Mr. Hurt and a few others know what really transpired over a year ago, but I don’t think that I am too far off.
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When I saw that this letter was from a NATIONAL official, I had great hopes for something reasoned, cogent, and a level above the emotional “feel sorry for us, the poor victims of corporate greed” drivel we usually see on the editorial pages. To say I was disappointed is an understatement.
Suffice it to say as far as union rhetoric goes, the apple does not fall far from the tree. Very disheartening. No wonder the union is at a complete loss as to what to do.
The only part that made sense was his statement that all labor disputes eventually end. He is correct. Unless the union makes some serious concessions on the seniority, closed shop issues, this dispute will end in 2-5 years when the locked out workers decertify.
If the average American is less than 6 weeks from homeless, you are telling me the locked out workers are willing to hang on for another season of sitting in the smoke shack and yelling insults at the replacement workers?
If they have that much cash in the bank, why are they even working?
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I believe that you are quite right about much of this being “preordained”. To read this letter in today’s paper makes me wonder if this isn’t also part of the strategy. Rev up what’s left of the union faithful while thumbing your nose at the company. If the company doesn’t bend, the union will say “We tried” and go home. It’s a great big game of chess and the international union is using the locked out employees like pawns. Take the blinders off union faithful and decertify the union.
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So the Grand Poobah has spoken. He should have kept his postition with the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes Lodge No. 26 or the Leopard Lodge No. 462 because he really does belong in TV land.
This comment stands out to me “is an insult to the local union members and leadership involved”. Funny how the union leadership holds the company up to such high standards while they sink to such low standards. I don’t need to list examples. We are all well aware of them.
So Frank….tell me this…does your sister and your brother-in-law still hold high paying jobs with the union? It’s interesting to me that you can hire your family members and give them big salaries at the same time you criticize executive salaries.
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Paying homage to Fred and Barney? Their lodge was originally called the Loyal Order of the Dinosaurs. It fits since the union is headed right into extinction.
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When I see an editorial like this I want to check the writer’s motivation. To further inflame those already in your camp? Check. To further alienate the opposite side? Check. You see politicians do this. Call a press conference to talk about them, what they’ve done and how they won’t budge. One could argue that the lockout has been in the hands of Mr. Hurt and the 96% who chose not to go back to work, but that would be equally pointless. History might show that the blame is a 50/50 draw. Of course, then it’s too late. Men can be such bullies. This is prejudiced, but I wish no men would have been allowed in these negotiations.
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The main reason for any of this Alvin is to keep the story alive. The longer this goes on the less and less interested people have become. Look at the comments from when the lockout first began until now. Back then support for the union was much higher. After the second vote they completely lost 3/4 of their base. Most everyone simply said “good riddance” and stopped thinking about it all together.
Look at what happened when a sitting governor and a United States Senator tried to rally the electorate: nothing. The response was so underwhelming I was almost embarrassed for their side.
As I have argued before, the union has miscalculated every step of the way in this labor action, and they don’t seem very interested in correcting their mistakes.
It is a shame that those in position of leadership are so busy believing their own press releases that they cannot see the damage they are causing. “Woe is me” wears thin very quickly, and they seem incapable of finding another argument.
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As I retread the pro union comments, the desperation is palpable. The fact remains ACS brought in the crop without them. No amount of obfuscation can change that. It was not pretty, & they did not do as good a job as the old timers would have; but they did it.
We have said all along that in a war of attrition ACS had all the cards. According to ACS 50% of the workforce is now local. By next campaign it will be between 80% – 100%.
Unless the union capitulates – which is doubtful, too much pride has already been sacrificed in this unwinnable war – they have effectively stopped being a force to contend with.
By this time next year when the national president writes to rally the troops, there will be precious few to inspire.
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obfuscation? I wanna be Gene D, too, but really, flying n., we are not worthy. I totally agree with your comment, but, occasionally, you seem to be enjoying this too much. I can’t stop thinking about Gayle Lunde, who, for me has become the face of this miserable battle. These nice people need a Phil Jackson or Bill Gates to follow and fire this Frank Hurt. I just hate how this has gone.
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C’mon Alvin, a little ‘class’ never hurt no one (double negative intended)….LOL
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Alvin:
They do not need a White Knight to save them. They have the power already. They can fire the union at any time.
As for enjoying this too much? I hope not. Thank you for keeping me honest if I am. I too feel sorry for Gayle and wish her well, but like I said, she does not need an outside Savior (other than Jesus). The workers are their own savior.
In a Communist country a savior would be appointed for them. Here, they can appoint their own. That is why America is the shining City on the Hill and Russia is a cesspool of corruption and greed.
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I’d be offended, but that would be giving you entirely too much credit. So I’ll giggle at your effort instead….
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Ron, you basically just agreed with what everone has been saying. You been overpaid, but ACSC agreed to pay those wages. Now they have deceided not to.
Look at it this way Ron, accept what ACSC is offering now, and be happy knowing you’ve been overpaid for so many years.
Life is good!
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He claims he doesn’t work for ACS. I wish he would stay off the ACS boards because he incites anger in people. We have enough of that without him adding to it.
*FYI….the company isn’t dropping wages. Read the contract. The information is right there. It has been online for 8 plus months. There is no excuse for ignorance at this point. If you don’t know the facts then stay out of the discussion.
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w.ron.g the ACS offer includes a raise so wage levels would go up. None of this is sudden, these are multi-year contracts and the old contract has language that was developed 40 years ago. Much of that language will remain. The “extreme” changes involve an increase in the employee share of healthcare cost, drug testing and de-emphasizing the seniority system. This is all mainstream stuff that the whole world is dealing with right now. Would you want management that did not improve the business in these areas?
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“They have decided all of a sudden to make extreme changes in times of record profit. Its a real great way to treat your former loyal employees.”
The thing is Ron, not everyone feels these changes are “extreme” and the reason lots of people feel that way is because we COMPARE the contract to what’s offered elsewhere. Why you can’t get through your head is beyond me. As for the “loyalty” part of your statement, it seems as though you’re saying that as long as they’re GIVEN enough….they’ll be “loyal”. Perhaps you should school us on “loyalty” now. For example post up some examples of things you’re “loyal” to….and why.
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So Mr. Hurt had a meeting with Mr. Berg and Mr. Talley 8 months before the lockout. Let me speculate as to what happened next.
Mr. Hurt calls a meeting with Mr. Bertelli, Mr. Froemke and Mr. Riskey. He says “I met with Berg and Talley. It went fine, but we all know that our 40 year old contract language is going to come under fire. This is what we need to do. We really need a fight that we can win right now. Keokuk, IA was a disaster http://www.dailygate.com/articles/2011/12/29/news/dgc1667107.txt and we need to rebound so that BCTGM doesn’t become irrelevant. We can’t compromise on anything with ACS. As a matter of fact, lets throw this http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/bctgm.proposal.pdf at them and really force the issue. We will do that in May of 2011 and then we won’t offer anything for at least a year because I can tell you from here in Maryland that there is no way that those factories will slice an entire crop without union help. ACS will cave in and we will be back in the driver’s seat for a long time to come. Let’s remember; we have Sydney Sugars, Southern Minn and many other contracts that will be renegotiated soon. This is going to be very hard on 1,300 of our members but that is a small number if you consider our national membership. Trust me, boys. We need this. Meeting adjourned.”
Only Mr. Hurt and a few others know what really transpired over a year ago, but I don’t think that I am too far off.
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“Maybe the other companies in the area are undercompensating their employees.”
We’ve been over this one too Ron. Several times actually. I *proposed*, (tongue in cheek of course), that we bring the rest of the working folks up to “union scale”. I invited you to explain how it would, (or could), work. First of all, the numbers don’t work. If you feel they do, max out the allowed number of characters per post and take as many posts as you want to lay out the economics for me.
AFTER doing that, the take a few minutes and lay out your thoughts on what the union(s) would do if everyone suddenly was in on the action….and their situation wasn’t *special* any more. Do you think they’d stand for the decline in their standard of living? I’ll give you a hint at the answer to that question: Why did they vote “no” here? Lots of ‘em are saying that a big part of the reason is that paying for SOME of their healthcare costs “erases too much” of their raises. Not ALL….just “too much”. Yup, you tell me how they’d react if suddenly the costs of ALL of the goods and services they consume increased at a rate that would be necessary to support the cost of the labor it takes to provide them….if everyone’s compensation package were given a significant bump.
Take as much time as you need. Answer the questions. I’ll check back in after work to see how much *YOU* know that *I* don’t. Not expecting any revelations….just more of the same “just because” nonsense.
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Ron….go back and read your last comment to Scott and then tell me why anybody on either side of this issue would take you seriously.
I want everybody to know this…RON IS NOT AN ACSC UNION EMPLOYEE!!! Please do not hold the union responsible for what he says.
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Oh thank god….and thank you for clarifying that. Whooosh….a load of stress just fell off my shoulders. Wow…it’s such a relief to have you admit that. Now do me a favor….go play in traffic.
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If I ever get the opportunity to meet you in person, I’d like to buy you a beer.
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Did someone mention beer? I like beer. My limit is one though…one and done.
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hhmmmmmm, beer
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“There is no discussion with you just more anti union propeganda.”
How is it anti-union propaganda Ron? All I ask for are things like simple explanations. If the compensation is higher, there ought to be some justification for it. You want justification too. How many times now have you asked why there are cuts being made? It’s not that I’m “anti-union” necessarily Ron. I’m more “anti-conveniently-redefining-things”.
In a whole LOT of union situations, terms like “skilled labor” are used to justify a compensation level. In a whole LOT of those situations, the “skilled labor” label has been rubber-stamped on a job description for convenience’s sake. At a family wedding a few years ago, I spent some time visiting with a distant relative that worked for GM. His job had a “title” that had an accompanying digit or letter to indicate how high up the “labor ladder” he was.
He was, (according to the UAW), “skilled labor”. Know what he did? His words exactly: “I put the front fenders on the Blazers.” In short, a task that had been completely laid out for him. The tools required, a jig to move the part into place and hold it there, a moving assembly line that brought the vehicle to his workstation, the procedure to do the job….everything was provided. Yet it was considered “skilled labor” and he a “skilled laborer”. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course, but in his situation, it was glaringly apparent to me that the union knew what the job entailed….and came up with a fancy title to go with it….to justify a compensation level…..that it wouldn’t otherwise receive.
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I’m not quite sure why people are beating up Ron over his 10:04 p.m. comment. If the ACS offer was for three years of wage increase and no change in benefits, the contract might have been accepted. That’s kind of what Ron’s saying. The company’s offer is kind of saying, enough is enough. Here’s a wage increase, but to succeed for the long haul, we need to trim the benefits (vacation & healthcare). In today’s world, I think the offer was very good, but it’s obvious that a couple of hundred bucks a month in new insurance costs is huge to any employee. The irresistible force against the immovable object.
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Alvin,
I can agree with the first half of Ron’s statement. There is always someone that will be making “above average” and someone making “below average”. That is how averages work. I don’t buy the argument some continue to make on here that the wages should be lower becuase similar jobs pay less. There is value in a stable, trained workforce. Plus, I’d much prefer that the wage gap within this country was narrowed through the salaries that people make rather than the government redistributing wealth. I do agree that these “lower wages elsewhere” will put a limit on how much “above average” the workers pay will get.
The union employees have received lots of training at ACSC over the years. Much of this training is specific to running a sugar factory. This is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the company to hire people off the street with the skills they need (they must train them) but it is also hard for the union members to take this valuable training and use it elsewhere. Many of those things specific to extracting sugar have little use to other industries.
However, the second half of Ron’s statement is where we differ. I almost laughed out loud when Ron mentioned the “extreme changes” being made. I don’t see anything “extreme” about the ACSC offer. It is a good offer. I understand Ron disagrees. I understand I will never change Ron’s mind. I won’t try.
As for your comment on healthcare. There is no “free to the worker” healthcare. It is a cost of doing business that allows for less money to be available for worker salaries (not necessarily on a 1 to 1 basis). A high-deductible plan with an HSA gives the employee a pool of money to manage their healthcare. This approach will drive down the total of what is spent on the workers healthcare. Basically, they will become more prudent in spending the money when they sense that it is really their money. This is a win-win for the company and employees as the total cost to the business will decrease. How that win-win is split is up to other details in the contract.
From my view, the company is sharing that “win” in increases in the wage. There isn’t a drop in total compensation. That is probably why we both agree the contract offer is very good (or at least good).
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Thanks, Mike. You could write a book on what I don’t know about this proposal. The HSA is confusing. The premiums are way less than the old dinosaur plans, but even with major health issues, they seem to ALWAYS save money. We switched our group of 15 to an HSA recently. It was difficult to get 15 employees to see it. Imagine trying to get 1,300 families to not be suspicious. I was under the impression that the company was simply proposing the staff pay a bigger part of a traditional family policy which makes some of ron’s math make sense.
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“I don’t buy the argument some continue to make on here that the wages should be lower becuase similar jobs pay less. There is value in a stable, trained workforce. ”
I agree to an extent, BUT…..where is it written that a union workforce is automatically more stable and trained? This is just my opinion, but I want to see and feel and experience whatever situation it is we’re discussing. Nobody *automatically* gets more than anyone else “just because”.
The reason I keep harping on the comparison thing, is because that’s how everything else is done. In organized labor situations though, it’s often tossed out the window before being considered. It’s like we’re all supposed to believe it’s irrelevant….
Hot debate. What do you think?
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No one said that they were huge, just above average for unskilled labor for this area.
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Higher than $11….yes. Jobs in the $20 range….no.
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One other note, I found the price of “wholesale refined beet sugar price, Midwest markets”. Google it and you can get it to, downloaded in a spreadsheet. The average over the last 10 years have been
2002 $0.25
2003 $0.27
2004 $0.24
2005 $0.26
2006 $0.26
2007 $0.26
2008 $0.30
2009 $0.36
2010 $0.50
2011 $0.56
2012 $0.51 – year to date
The data goes back to 1960. Between 1980 to 2002, the price ranged from $0.22 to $0.34. ACSC shouldn’t/can’t create a long-term union contract based on the prices in the last 3 years. It would be foolish to belive that, after 30 years of some price stability, the value of sugar is now 2x greater and will remain there.
If the union wants access to share in the income during these better years, they should look at profit sharing. Otherwise, they need to settle on something based on the long-term averages.
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Profit sharing is not possible since ACSC is a co-op.
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How does the management team get a bonus schedule based on returns to members? The union could easily use similar calculations for a profit sharing formula. But Mr. Hurt wouldn’t support that, would he. It is considered anti-union. Take control, Ms. Lund. Be a leader. You are certainly more capable than Mr. Hurt, Mr. Bertelli, Mr. Froemke, Mr. Riskey, Mr. Knapper, Mr. Nelson and Mr. Ripplinger.
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ACSC has publicly stated they offered to include profit sharing as part of the contract and the union turned them down. There is no reason you can’t have profit sharing as part of a Co-op. As oofda t. s. stated, use the same calculation as used for the management bonuses. Then all our trying to accomplish the same thing and they all get rewarded when they do accomplish it.
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Crystal states a lot of things publically.
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Where the hell is there anything about profit sharing? That sounds like a humane thing… need I say more?
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Mike, those number you posted about the sugar prices must be wrong! All we hear is how ACSC record profits were because of the union workers, not the price of sugar! Could it be that other factors contributed to the record profits?
Say it ain’t so Mike, say it ain’t so!
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Record profits were due to a record crop and record prices in 2010. The profits were also due to the employees ability to process this crop in record fashion. In early July of 2010, David Berg told us that the growers would have to plow under as many beets as the Mhd factory alone could process. We started the factory early. We broke slice and sugar production records day after day. We processed every single beet. Nothing was plowed under or hauled back to the field in the spring. The growers, management and the union employees used to be a team in which everyone was appreciated. Those relations have now been destroyed. All trust is gone.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I don’t believe Mr. Hurt’s desription of union opposition to the conytact is accurate. The union came out with no reccomendation on the contract before it went up before it’s 1st vote. Then in an “Informational” meeting just before the vote my understanding is that the contract was mis-represented, this understanding is based upon the postings of union members on these boards of inaccurate information such as Gayle Lund’s befief that the 401K plan was being discontinued. No wonder a bunch of pissed off people voted 96% against the contract. As for the 2nd vote, I have heard from several union members that they were accompanied by a union representative into the booth to make sure that they voted the right way. I also wonder why no vote talleys were ever released, only precentages. Unless the vote is conducted by an independent 3rd party I will have a hard time believing any results. Especially when the vote is conducted by people who have a vested interest in the results to fit their own agendas.
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There was an-ex union member who posted on these very boards that stated the second vote was conducted in the manner you posted.. really made me go hmmm.
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NO ONE TOLD US HOW TO VOTE AND NO ONE WATCHED WHAT WE VOTED
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Mr. Bradley, it is even worse than you describe. The union did have an initial proposal. You can read it here: http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/bctgm.proposal.pdf
This proposal is so over the top that it tells me the BCTGM was asking to get locked out. I think Mr. Hurt needs to win a fight to recover some value after the disaster negotiations in Keokuk, IA. He was convinced that these factories would not run without union help. Boy, was he w.ron.g
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No one said that they didn’t have a union. But they did get a contract that froze their wages for several years and new hires come in at a lower wage. Not to mention many other concessions. Bertelli lost face there and is trying to re-gain it here.
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The Ballots are tallied by a voting committee. Not paid elected officials. I can’t speak for the other factories because I was not there, but there was no coertion on how to vote in the Mhd. factory.
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“I can’t speak for the other factories because I was not there, but there was no coertion on how to vote”
I’ll take your word for it, but i do have a question. (Please be honest.)
Coercion in a voting situation can take many forms. It doesn’t necessarily HAVE TO mean someone is standing right next to you telling you which box to check or lever to pull. It can also mean conveniently leaving out important details or misrepresenting things before a person enters a booth to cast a vote.
Would you say that EVERYTHING you were told by your representation was accurate? Do you feel that anything was “held back” from you, or that anything was exaggerated? I haven’t heard too many quotes from reps since this all began that can’t be picked apart……
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In Crookston, the union members were lined up single file in front of the table to vote at. As they came to the table the ballots were face down and flipped right side up. They were told at the time to vote to vote NO. There were union members trembling and in tears because they had to vote openly in front of their peers……Would you call that cohersion?
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My bad, no spell check, coercion
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That was NEVER done at my location. EGF.
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My husband told me at EGF they were able to see each other’s ballots. It wasn’t private in other words.
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Mike your right “extreme changes is the wrong wording. American crystal is making multiple changes that the union does not agree with. It is my belief that if american crystal didn’t make changes in both health care and seniority at the same time the union may be resistant but more welcome to movement in american crystals favor. This is all optimistic speculation on my part.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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This will sound naive to many of you, but I seriously believe the ballots were properly counted. There seems to be some misunderstanding about the company’s offer, but it’s such an insult to honest people likely doing a very accurate job of counting. I truly believe that the employees are that strongly against the offer. In my town, virtually every blue collar worker who has had an opinion has taken the employee’s side and the business people seem to side with the company. That’s oversimplifying, but so is the stereotypical assumption that union leadership is dishonest. These days, we all seem quick to assume the opposition is not honest and we’re quick to suggest
it without evidence or concern about hurting people. It’s dysfunctional.
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“That’s oversimplifying, but so is the stereotypical assumption that union leadership is dishonest. ”
I haven’t seen or heard too many examples of “assumptions” about leadership being dishonest. I’ve asked several times over the last few months for represented employees to get the leadership on the phone and clarify/explain statements they’ve publicly made. I’ve even “called them out” directly via these boards when they’ve said things that aren’t accurate. Their “record” for replying at all, (let alone proving what they’ve said), is pretty unimpressive. Often times, it seems like statements are just thrown out there for consumption in the hopes that at least SOME of the people listening will just repeat what they’ve heard as fact….no questions asked.
If they don’t want “assumptions” about their accuracy/honesty to be made, what would be the BEST way to make it not happen?
When it’s your job to represent someone, being “dishonest” can also take several forms. It doesn’t have to mean lying to someone to their face. It can also mean leaving out details, exaggerating the details they do provide, etc.
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I understand how sharing/withholding details can be misleading and even dishonest. My comment was meant to be specific to the integrity of the election process. I trust it and believe the results are accurate. The Hurt editorial is an example of what you are talking about. Rather than Mr. Hurt using his time to explain and answer some of yours and others questions, his article is full of opinion and rhetoric and conclusions without much fact. I just don’t think it’s fair to indict the election process because of a few windbags. I’ve heard no evidence to think otherwise.
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As I read and re-read the same old arguments, it strikes me just how many half truths are being spread by both sides. It reminds me that we are a nation of sound bites and emotional reactions rather than reasoned thought.
Wages are determined by the market. The more scarce your skills are, the more you get paid. It really is that simple. There is no emotion involved. In the end it is supply and demand. When ACS started to advertise for replacement workers, general semi skilled labor was offered $15 an hour and welders and electricians were given $25. Are welders and electricians “better” people than general labor? Of course not. They simply possess a skill that is in higher demand so they are paid more.
Seniority is a two edged sword. Someone above mentioned the value of a stable, trained, workforce. They are absolutely correct. New employees are expensive. That is why old timers get higher pay and more vacation. Companies want good people to stay. If they were not valuable no one would ever receive a raise for number of years with the company. Everyone would just get starting wage plus whatever cost of living increases that come along.
That said, simply breathing (doing enough to not get fired) is no reason to reward someone with more than their base wages. My problems with most unions is their lack of sophistication when it comes to evaluations and rewards. If two people are equally qualified on paper, the one with the higher seniority gets the post. This breeds mediocracy. There has to be a competitive system every step of the way. I have been a nurse for over 25 years, I can do most aspects of my job in my sleep. That is part of the problem on the average day: where is my “fire” to learn and stay on top? Why should I get the job ahead of a red hot out to make a name for themselves?
Finally: unless you have profit sharing, the argument that the company is doing well therefore the workers deserve to be rewarded is spurious. That is completely against how the market works. Your skills did not become any rarer (hard to replace) just because the company made a profit.
This example will make people angry (including me at times) but it is theologically sound. Walmart greeters. They earn minimum wage for what by all accounts is a fairly mundane job. I lay awake in bed at night worrying that some day that will be me: working when I should be retired just to pay for my medicine to stay alive.
Walmart has been successful darn near forever. Does greeter now deserve $12 or $15 an hour simply because the company is successful? Did their job become more difficult?
I value work, any and all work. Just ask my kids how I treat them when they are out of work (If you are working and trying hard, I am always there with an extra $50 or $100 to tide you over. If you are not working or not in school, you will be hard pressed to receive permission to take the change from my car).
I value work, but that does not mean I think we all deserve to be paid the same.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/79708686@N04/show/
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There have been a number of comments regarding the perceived lack of skill, lack of community ties and poor character of replacement workers. I have no idea what the quality of the replacement workers maybe. Regardless of the quality the replacement workers have managed to operate the production facilities to some degree. Whether that is 10% efficiency, 50% efficiency or 100% efficiency I don’t know. Since ACSC has made it clear that its offer won’t change, I suspect that ACSC is satisfied.
If there is a lack of skilled replacements, it is my opinion that it has little to do with the “skills” needed to operate the plant and more to do with the fact that many potential employees don’t want to take the jobs because the jobs may not be permanent; if the lockout ends Union employees would return. If the Union is so confident that their members can’t be replaced I suggest decertification. If the Union is correct, and they can’t be replaced, ACSC will be back with new contract proposals. However, I suspect that the Union and ACSC both know that if permanent jobs were made available ACSC would fill those positions immediately.
This lockout could continue for a long time if the voting members of the Union are a relatively small group of individuals who don’t care if they go back to work or not; again, it would be interesting to know how many of the 1300 employees are actually voting. As it stands now, ACSC seems to be content with slowly replacing Union employees with Union members who are willing to go back to work and others who are willing to take the chance the jobs will be permanent. Even if only a couple quality replacements are found per day it won’t be long before all of the non-local workers and unqualified workers are gone.
It is odd to me that some of the “pro” Union posts on this site continually assert that the replacement workers are a collection of unqualified odd balls incapable of functioning in any job let alone working in the ACSC facilities. Since the facilities are operating, even if not at 100% efficiency, the argument seems to support the idea that the jobs really don’t require the high level of skill asserted by the Union.
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Any job for which you can be trained in a matter of weeks is no skilled to semi skilled. This is most certainly not a dig on the worker, just a statement of fact.
As I said before: I support work & reject not working. My point is, if you want to earn $100,000 a year, make the effort to prepare yourself for a job that pays that.
DO NOT (Jeff) bemoan & feel sorry for yourself for earning $40,000 – $60,000 a year plus benefits at a job that required no specialized preparation. Those are amazing wages for what in reality is a very limited skill set.
Gayle said she was going to school to learn how to drive truck. That is a specialized skill & she will be paid accordingly.
This is not right vs wrong; just economics 101
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Gayle, the increase in cost of health care has been outpacing the increase in the cost of living for several years. So even though you only received a 2% cost of living raise, your total compensation has gone up even more than that. There are 2 reasons that Crystal cannot continue with their current health care package. One is that as their portion of healthcare costs increases it costs them more and more. The second is, that with the passage of Obamacare, Crystal will be fined millions of dollars for having a healthcare plan that is too good. While they may be able to afford the current healthcare plan now, with record high sugar prices, when the price of sugar drops, and it will like any other farm commodity, they will no longer be able to afford the healthcare plan, which will result in a loss of profitability and may may result is layoffs or even having to close their doors, which is something no one wants.
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“Scott thinks pretty highly of himself and his Philly Lawyer gig. We all know without a Union ACS jobs would be paying a lot less. If the Union is busted the employees of ACS will find out what it’s like to not have any say in safety or compensation. But of course that’s just selfish to even hope for such things-right Scotty.”
Was this directed at me? If so, ummm…..what?
And this often-repeated sentiment is STILL one of my favorites:
“We offered to work under the old contract until a new one could be settled.”
I cannot for the life of me figure out WHAT you think is so “special” about that. Time and again people have said they knew the lock-out was planned well ahead of time. In order for a lock-out to occur, it’s because the sides were NOT in agreement…no? And what would MAKE the sides “not be in agreement” so to speak? Would it be because the company was going to ask for some concessions? So if we draw a straight(er) line in order to get to the bottom of things here, the union KNEW some concessions were going to be asked for during negotiations. Don’t kid yourselves. The union KNEW it.
So when the company made the offer(s), and the union voted “no”, how or why is it EVEN WORTH MENTIONING that they “offered to work under the old contract until things were settled”?
I proposed an “outside of the union bubble” scenario before, and here it comes again:
Imagine I went into my employer’s office at review time, and he told me that there were some changes being made, (i.e. my compensation package was shrinking somehow). What if if I had the cajones to tell him, “You know what, I’m willing to work under the deal we had previously until we have this whole thing settled.”
It’s hilarious that anyone thinks “offering” to work under the old contract is somehow exceptional here. You apparently don’t realize how arrogant it actually sounds. Especially when you consider that your “offer” to work under the old contract until things “get settled” comes after getting a FINAL OFFER….which you replied to….with “nope”.
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Below is the link to the BCTGM contract proposal. Can someone show me where the union asks for profit sharing? I would be very impressed if this language exists in union print. Please help me find it here or anywhere. http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/bctgm.proposal.pdf
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So what do you think the union’s stance will be at the new talks? I see the union rep standing up, pounding his shoe on the table and shouting ” we will bury you”. Bahahaha!
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