American Indian students at UND warn against delays in their Fighting Sioux nickname lawsuit
April 25, 2012 at 1:15 am in Grand Forks Herald
Eight American Indian students at UND who have sued the university, the state and top state officials over the Fighting Sioux nickname have urged the federal court to “move as expeditiously as possible to prevent further violations of (their) civil rights.” Continue Reading
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Always: I will give you one thing, you are consistent: seeing racism everywhere except in the mirror.
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Personally I don’t care what they do with the name but if they do make them change it then shouldn’t eveyone with an Indian name have to change, (Florida State, Alcorn, Central Michigan, Utah, Bradley, Arkansas State, Illinois, Louisiana-Monroe among others). What I don’t understand is why the indians care, they get subsidized from the government to go to school, the schools give them scholarships and housing just because they are indian, and the name is not offensive to most indians. The majority of them want it to stay, its just a few that are looking for the 5 minutes of fame. If they change the name then great, we will never have to deal with it again but what if UND decides to stop giving them scholarships and housing just because they are indian after the name change, will that also be considered racist.
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Geez Jon lets not let our racism show there much by repeating urban myths that have been debunked a million times.
A: Native students do not get their education subsidized anymore than any other student.
B: Schools do not give them scholarships and housing for being a Native.
C: The Native Studies program funds themselves.
D: The InMed Program pays rent to UND.
E: You have just proven their arguement for them with your racist rant. Congratulations.
Turn the hood around there Jon, the eyeholes are suppose to be in the front.
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I hate to give you credit, but that was funny.
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Actually Mr. Iverson, Jon is not completely wrong. Have you ever heard of a cultural diversity waiver? I have, and I bet a large percentage of Native Americans attending school in North Dakota receive it to some extent. Do you believe that as a Caucasian I am eligible for a cultural diversity tuition waiver? There’s one example.
The Native American programs are self funded? By who? I believe there is a lot of federal money coming into those programs. If you believe that is being self-funded, then I guess our government is self-funded as well because the money originates in the same place: your and my pockets. Here’s an example of self-funding:
Through the congressionally funded Native Americans Into Law (NAIL) Program, the University of North Dakota (UND) School of Law recruits promising American Indian students and trains them to be effective attorneys.
Similarly funded is the Indians into Medicine program which receives its funding from the Indian Health Services which is part of HHS. I would guess that all the Native American programs at UND receive federal subsidy in one form or another so to say they are self-supporting is BS.
Now, am I against any of this funding…absolutely not. I am a friend to and with many Native Americans and I really don’t see them as any different than me in most respects, with the exception being the only federal grants I would be eligible for are the normal Pell, FSEOG, TEACH, etc. type of grants. Native Americans are also eligible for these. I’m done.
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Oh’ SNAP!
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I should have been more clear on funding. They are self-funded as in the fact they raise their own funds and not from UND. So many people always cite the NA Studies as showing how UND honors Native Americans when it is not UND but grant dollars from other sources that really fund the department. All departments at UND are looking for grant dollars for their programs.
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I agree with that. Everyone is writing grant proposals. The Native American programs are no different than a research department writing a grant seeking federal funding.
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I know for a FACT that in the past ( can not say currently as I am no longer there) that Indian students applying for med school are treated differently than other applicants. The Medical School is required to admit a certain amount of Indian students to medical school. So if I had better scores, a better interview and so on ,than a Indian student, they got in before me, as the school had to fill their quota of Indians. Don’t believe me? Look into it. Ask those that make the decisions of who gets in. I know, as I used to be one of them.
Another thing, 30 yrs ago, my friend and I started at UND. We both applied for aid, her parents both had better jobs than mine, they lived in a really nice home, drove really nice cars. She got a free ride through school, I paid off loans for years. She is Indian. I don’t begrudge her the education she received, she deserved it, but is it fair to be punished because I am white?
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C’mon Alvin!
Native American Studies is a huge program at UND
I find that it is one of the most attended classes by the people who graduate with a degree in Liberal Arts and then cry about WalMart being the only job offer they get.
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Captain you are smoking funny stuff again. Native American studies is anything but a “huge” department at UND. As an undergrad I spent 90% of my time in the history department, right down the hall from Native American/Indian Studies. Go visit their offices, look at the number of faculty and staff they have, and then define “huge.”
History, Honors, and Native American Studies are all Liberal Arts. In the university setting, that means we are near the bottom of the food chain.
Some fun examples. My MS is in Aviation. Merrifield Hall has no AC. It is almost uninhabitable in the summer. There are urine stains beneath the urinals in the second floor bathroom that have been there since Eisenhower was President. The best part of Merrifield are the stairways. Straight out of Gone with the Wind. I love the place.
In comparison, Odegard, Ryan, and Clifford are new, air conditioned, have wireless internet access that works, and do not smell of ancient frat boys.
Aviation also has more faculty, staff, and declared students than Honors, History, and Native Studies combined; times two or three.
Native American Studies is an important department at UND, but it is anything but huge.
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I’m part native so I don’t hate natives, I just disagree with giving money away just because of your race, its wrong! I didn’t take any money I paid all of my tuition myself and I belive alot of these programs just hurt the people who use it, don’t get me wrong some use the money the correct way to better there life but most don’t. So for all of you who think I’m racist, guess again. Its time we treat everyone as an American. No labels-your either an American or your not. In my opinion the people who fight to keep the labels, Native American, African American, Mexican American etc. are the ones that are looking to keep receiving handouts. Everyone wants to say that white people bring us down but are white Americans really just American. Shouldn’t they have the right to call themselves Irish American, German American and so forth so they can receive programs just like everyone else, but they don’t, do they. I know there are alot of good people in this country that work hard and need the programs, its just sad how corrupt these programs are and so many of you don’t even see it.
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Maybe you should go back to school and learn to read, when did I ever say I did or did not support the logo.
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“warn”… what are their intentions if it does get delayed? Throw a temper tantrum?
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If you read the article, a better choice of words in the headline might have been advise, alert or caution. The term warn was only used by the headline writer. My goodness, why don’t you read the article before you submit a “smart” remark? Still, a large majority likes your comment. Priceless!
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Hugo: the SL crowd used that exact same wording before they filed their suit. I cracked up when I saw this group say the same thing. I guess it just depends which side of the fence you are on.
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Flying, please quit lying, SL supporters have never threatened anybody. It was Jesse Taken Alive who threatened the ND Legislators if they passed the law. It was Terry Morgan and Erich Longie who threatened the SL Tribal Council. The opposition has been threading every and anyone who dares to disagree for years now. This tactic has been used for years, “accuse your opponent of doing what you are in fact guilty of doing”.
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Mato: I quick trip through the Harold archives should help refresh your memory some. I think you missed a story or two.
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Is there a petition I can sign so I can never read about this again? The Horse is not only dead, I think the Coyotes ate the carcass.
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You don’t need a petition…JUST DON’T READ IT. Kind of like saying you don’t like what is on TV all the while you watch. Get a clue…turn it off!
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Thank you Jon and Mark and those who like their comments, for giving the NCAA the perfect evidence that supports their contention that the nickname is hostile and abusive and must be gone. Look what happens to Native Americans when they stand up against a racist stereotype nickname, more racist and stereotypical reactions from nickname supporters.
And don’t tell me the SL people are standing up for the nickname, we all know they are being used as puppets and for public relations to embarrass the NCAA.
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How is my response racist or stereo-typical? That is total Bull. I am just stating the facts and correcting the misconception that no benefits are derived from being Native American and attending college. That can’t be further from the truth, at least in North Dakota. Further, I never said what side of the nickname argument I come down on so how do you find me racist? It is so easy to throw the race card into things to confuse people. Stop taking the easy way out Grandforkian. As far as the NCAA being embarrassed, they don’t need any help…they are embarrassing themselves all the time. Go read some of the articles out there that are anti-NCAA (with nothing to do with the nicknames) and tell me they don’t need some changes. There is talk that many of the larger schools may pull out of the NCAA as it has lost its way and is not performing the duties it was established to perform. Educate thyself!
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Haha, thank you again for making my point. Who cares what the North Dakotans think about the NCAA, you all would be honoring and loving them if the nickname had been allowed to stay. Only because they disagree with you are you whining and crying about how unfair they are to poor old North Dakota. Ya, go head and drop out of the NCAA and don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
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If I said the sky was blue you’d tell me I made your point. Problem is, you really don’t have one. At least one that has any thought behind it. And can you read? I said some of the larger schools…is UND a larger school in your myopic point of view? Good grief.
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What is even sadder, is only 1:4 had any intention of returning to the rez. They all said they went to medical school to return and help their people, but determined that the hopelessness was simply to great. One surgeon, the single mother of a 12 year old girl, said when she graduated her residency she had every intention of working for Indian Health, AFTER her daughter was out of the house. She could not justify exposing her daughter to that environment. Sad.
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If you grew up in that environment, went to school and saw how the rest of the world lives would you want to go back? I knew several people who had left the reservation and stated they would never step foot back on it even though they still had immediate family living there.
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A week ago, there was a piece about the nickname backers defending their lawsuit. In six days, it generated 17 comments mostly picking on the attorneys and court. This story about the American Indian students fueled 24 comments in 12 hours. Almost every post is either judging or defending the Native American’s place in our schools and our system. I’m not sensitive enough to know if it’s evidence of racism, but it shows a level of intolerance. For sure, it’s bad form. Intolerance and bad manners is a nasty and hurtful combination. Seriously, as this continues to drag on, the NCAA seems to be the only voice of reason at the table.
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Alvin- very true. Nickname supporters like Mark and Jon and their likers, all believe that the NA students should just sit down and shut up because they are getting a “free” education, which is a lie they continue to use to justify their racism against these students. All students have to apply for financial aid FAFSA, and their aid is based on their income, nothing else. My kids all had to go through the same process to get financial aid, never on the FAFSA application were they asked what race they were and given any “extra” or special considerations for financial aid. If they wanted to apply for scholarships that their tribe offered they were free to do so or not apply. The point is Mark and Jon, no one is standing at the entrance of UND handing out any special favors to NA students, otherwise their drop out rate would not be so high.
Flying Nurse – sorry but you know nothing relevant about the Rez, the problem with the rez is the federal government needs to get out and take the Indian Health Service with it. We will keep our Rez, our lands and culture, because despite the problems a lot of reservations are succeeding.
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Grandforkian the knowitall. I’m sure you don’t know that I audit student finacial aid in my job. I don’t make these things up. Cultural diversity waiver are real and you don’t have to be native american to get one, but you can’t be white! What about the federal support of the programs? Self-funded? No. Grandforkian just yells racist whenever someone disagrees with him. I feel a little sorry for you actually.
Additionally, someone else on here was saying they spoke with doctors that went thru med school and wouldn’t go back to the reservation. Not everyone is like that. My oldest friend in this world was put thru school by the Indian Health Service and 25 years later he still works for the IHS; he was only obligated for 5 years. And you know what? He doesn’t think I’m racist. Nor does his family. Only Grandforkian believes I am because I use facts instead of bull like him.
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Right. I made your point…
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Mark:
None of the docs I was talking about were on IHS payback. They would not touch IHS or the Public Health Service with a ten foot pole. I agree, that is sad because the PHS has some truly outstanding people working for it; people who care deeply about the disparities in American healthcare.
One was on an ROTC scholarship and ended up doing two tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. The others were doing it the old fashioned way: $150, 000 worth of student loans.
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Grandforkian: I have said many times before that under the current condition, if the Rez was a third world country the UN would call it genocide and demand peacekeepers.
The largest Sioux reservation in the nation has a Fetal Alcohol Syndrome rate of 20% (those are the tribes numbers) when the rest of the nation is less than 1%. 80% unemployment, 80% alcoholism and drug abuse, and a high school drop out rate worse than anything New York City or South Central LA can muster.
I have openly advocated for doing away with the reservation system. A 5-10 year time line then all subsidies stop. Either a one time cash payout or deed tribal land without condition. In return the tribes will have to step up to the plate and make their own destiny.
This would not be easy. Who is going to open a hospital in an area with 80% unemployment? Remember the rates of diabetes and renal failure on the rez are tripple that what they are in the general population. Who is going to pay for the healthcare? Who is going to provide it?
The rez is a cesspool of hopelessness. It is worse than any inner city ghetto housing project. We closed most of those projects because they were public nuisances. I honestly believe that is the only hope Native culture has of surviving into the 22 century.
Just my opinion, but as a tax payer and a nurse, paying for other people’s destruction is not something I am in favor of. It is like buying a homeless drunk a 6 pack. I just made him happy for a few hours, and hastened his death all in one $5 purchase.
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FN – you are so ignorant of Native American reservation history, first I would encourage you to read the Indian Self-Determination Act. Next the myth that taxpayers are subsidizing the Rez is a lie, the US govt holds billions of dollars in a Native American funds and are obligated because of the numerous treaties to support NA tribes due to the THEFT of their lands and natural resources.
To say a Rez is a “cesspool” is so insulting to those who live there, yes they have problems but not ALL reservations are this way, in CA a tribe is actually building their own multi-million dollar medical center, which will be independent of the IHS. Pine Ridge is an anomaly and soon with the help of other tribes who are prospering, PR can be turned around too. Many if not all tribes with casinos are mandated to give money back to their communities, educate yourself on just how much tribes donate to their ommunities and many of that money goes to non-Natives, whites. How many city governments do you know are mandated to give money to the communities? When was the last time Grand Forks gave any money to the local charities around here?
Your broad statements about Rez life are just plain wrong, we are not all drunks being subsidized by the Feds as you would like everyone to believe.
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Thanks, grandforkian. I went to college during the Viet Nam war. I got some grants and matched them with loans and work study. I was involved in a couple of organizations and followed along in a couple of marches. No one confronted me or embarrassed me because of my views. Being white gives me a pass to openly share my opinion and to receive school aid without being judged. If someone can tell me how this double standard is not racist, keep it to yourself. I’ve heard enough.
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They had a choice of schools. I guess they made the wrong choice to attend UND.
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It is sort of reminiscent of people buying a house in the landing path of an airport and then demanding it be closed.
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Gene: I think None’s comment was tongue-in-cheek and you bit. So, “they” should or shouldn’t feel a part of the UND community? Careful, “they” read this stuff and have feelings just like “us”.
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Could be tongue in cheek. But similar comments spoken in all seriousness have been expressed over the years. Guess None will have to clarify his post.
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Wow! You corrected my grammar and missed my point, creating a rare conundrum. On a different subject, if a Native American UND student claims damage from the use of native
imagery in college sports, does the court care if they are Sioux or not? I think you’ve been exposed.
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I believe None’s point was they came to UND knowing what the nickname was, and then ex post facto wanted to change it. I can’t answer for the court, and seeing the case is still pending, wouldn’t try. I believe my airport analogy still stands.
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I believe None’s point was that “they” should have gone elsewhere to college. I believe you inadvertently validated None’s point. I believe your questioning their tribe affiliation, which is moot to many of us, leaves you a little exposed. I believe you are never wrong and would be a very difficult boss. I believe I am finished for the night.
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As I said, I’ll leave it to None to settle the interpretation.
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Vote “YES” on June 12 for honorable retirement of the Sioux imagery.
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And whom is the check for for the lawsuit being signed by…..?? It isn’t these students. Lawsuits are REAL EXPENSIVE.
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And whom is the check for the SL lawsuit being signed for ? Lawsuits are real expensive to us the North Dakota taxpayers.
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When this story first broke quite some time ago, it was stated that almost none of the students were members of the Sioux tribes. Is this true?
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Good question Gene. I would be interested in hearing the results.
Slightly tangential though. Native American imagery affects everyone regardless of tribe. FSU’s caucasian frat boy in Kabooki makeup riding around bareback after a touchdown is insulting to more than Seminoles.
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And yet the NCAA has no problem with it, even though the depiction is closer to a plains Indian.
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I do agree that the frat boy in Kabooki makeup is more racist (think blackface) & derogatory than anything we have come up with, but the Seminoles seem happy with the settlement – for now. When I was researching their settlement there were lots of stories about a very vocal minority who are against the name. According to those articles the number of supporters is decreasing & the number of detractors is increasing & becoming more politically active. My guess is in another 10 years you will see the UND saga part Deux: FSU style
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Yes, all Native Americans must learn their place…they must all be offended by the imagery.
The liberals need the votes, and victims equal votes for the libs.
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I know for a fact Sage isn’t a Sioux, he’s Navajo from New Mexico.
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I can’t recall seeing any information tying these kids to either membership in one of the state’s sioux bands or even a discussion of what supposed civil rights of theirs have been violated?
I posted a link to this awhile back, but in the article which surveyed indian thoughts on the various sports nickname issues around the country, the point was made that most band members believe that a minority of activists are behind the efforts to ban the names–and the majority were actually more tolerant of them than I am myself!
The issue of who these kids are, where they are from and what exact racism they have experienced with use of the nickname while at UND is key to support of their position.
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I would like to see the specifics as well, but in the end does it matter? Always most certainly is not an enrolled member of any tribe & everyone agrees he is a legend in his own mind on this subject ( sorry Always, it was a cheap shot but I had to take it).
As I said before: the average Caucasian is not interested enough or acute enough to deal with the differences between tribes. Not a lot of subtlety in their judgements.
I often think that the average ND nickname supporter would freak if they went to the Southwest & saw just how diverse Native culture is there. Part Mexican, part Indian, part American. It is truly a polyglot.
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If justice is supposed to be blind, so why can’t we be as Americans. Enough of this hyphenated bull crap.
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Low rent. You are a little confused. The lady with the scales is blindfolded to insure everyone gets treated equally regardless of their hyphenation. She is blind to protect the hyphens; not discourage them.
A Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Hindu, & a Native American spiritualist all want to build a place of worship in the same neighborhood. Everyone’s plans meet all the health, safety, & zoning regulations. The neighbors pitch a fit because they do not want a Mosque or Kiva in their neighborhood.
Lady Justice shoots them down quickly, forcefully, & with prejudice because the government is not allowed to pick & choose which religion it supports.
In these cases the courts support the right for everyone to sue everyone else over matters of civil rights. It does not support the white majority over the Native minority or vice versa. Everyone gets their chance.
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To piggy back on FN’s story of indian students, in my day as a student at UND I got to know a handful of indian kids.
I was in a position to counsel several of them. I only recall a few of them that stayed in school for long. One boy I still remember very vividly. A very intelligent kid, I really liked him but he had a MONSTROUS chip on his shoulder. Somewhere, somebody –or perhaps many people –had really messed him up and he had huge anger and social skill issues.
Upon leaving school I’ve had the pleasure of working with staff from several bands and working alongside band members. I have a lot to learn I believe–but I have learned a bit about their traditions, their decision making culture–and how they view the world.
They deal with issues like the nickname issue in a much different manner than many might think. The agreement that excluded bands completely between the NCAA/UND and the SBOHE is an excellent example.
Anyone that works with bands and understands their culture would have predicted the way that trio handled things was going to lead to a major clash eventually.
I haven’t agreed with FN’s constant labeling of nickname proponents as all being racist, but she has a point–although I think it isn’t as bad at Spirit lake as she implies–about the conditions and problems within reservations.
I have long felt that UND was ideally situated in many respects to serve as an educational resource for indian students from in state and out.
I think more could and should be done for indian kids in the dakota reservations and at UND to assist in their education. I think a key to improved conditions is sending more graduates and leaders back to those reservations. As FN implies, so few that do make it through an educational program do return–most leave.
Where I seem to disagree strongly with FN is over the nickname issue–and whether dropping it as she wants does anything but harm the ability to achieve improved understanding of indian issues or improve educational options for them.
I know for a fact some influential indians believe the nickname issue is a means to improvement in relations and the educational experience for them. I am certain I saw that myself back in my days at UND, and from what I hear from my own UND student today, the presence of the nickname controversy has made students extra conscious of the feelings and experience of indians on campus.
Does that mean the nickname is good if in fact it results in racist actions and behaviors? Absolutely not!
But for the umpteenth time, the issue of whether racist use is pervasive and a real problem has not been resolved!
Resolving the controversy with honor, the right way–one that includes those affected by it the most–is the only way that the nickname use can be ended without doing more harm to the plight of indians.
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Thank you for your kind words. But in the interest of full disclosure, I am a MALE nurse.
I graduated from nursing school in 1986, received my BA from UND in 2005, and will pick up my MS from UND next month (I just finished defending my thesis).
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Terry Finneman has an excellent piece on the US Attorney trying to address real problems on the Rez. One in three Native women a victim of sexual violence during her lifetime. A murder rate for women ten times the national average. I would say those are real problems affecting real people.
Unfortunately no one will even notice or comment on the article, but we average 200 responses for an article that in the end is a whole lot to do about nothing. I seriously doubt if the world will stop turning because we kept or got rid of the name. Yet, if you are one of the murdered women … the world did stop turning.
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FN, but it seems like every time we hyphenate we segregate. Every time certain groups amplify their heritage it creates a schism. I am not saying we shouldn’t be proud of where our ancestors come from but as Martin Luther King Jr. stated we should judge a person by the content of their character not the color of their skin and that street can afford traffic both ways.
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LowRent: I see where you are coming from. Labels do create schisms. They are borders. The part I think you are overlooking is they are nothing new. They are how we become a melting pot/stew.
In the 19th century the boogie man was “those damn Papists.” Meaning Catholics from Ireland. If you read the papers in the North before and even during the Civil War you see a phenomena being played out that is scarily eery of Sheriff Joe in PHX. You see letters to the editors decrying their filth, and their unwillingness to learn English, and their strange religious practices. The only people who got treated worse were the Jews from Eastern Europe. They were accused of never bathing, smearing pig grease (think about that one for a minute) all over themselves, being money changers in the Temple and kidnapping children.
Then it was the Irish. A little later it was the Italians and Germans. The Swedes and Norwegians skipped the racial stereotyping because they were smart enough to settle in someplace that was uninhabited.
Now, it is the MX. Same exact complaints.
Native American. Mexican American. African American. The key point is they are all American. The hyphen gets dropped as the group moves from the minority to the majority. By definition that means the complexion of the country changes, and if you are the one being replaced, you are not happy.
Back to the Irish. They could not get a city job when they first got here. Now they have a lockdown (speaking stereotypically) on the Fire Department and Police Department of New York and Boston.
Ever been to a Public Service funeral? Bag Pipes and men in skirts.
In the SouthWest Governor Brewer (old Leatherface) and Sheriff Joe and all of their Tea Party pals are on their way out. Why? They did not reproduce fast enough.
Keep in mind that AZ used to be Mexico so you can’t tell them to go home, they were here several millennia before Anglos were. Long story short is MX are the dominant racial group. Sure, some advocate for returning the homeland to MX, but the majority do not even speak Spanish. They are proud of their roots but they are 100% American.
Sure, America will change as MX gain more power, but the system is designed to work this way. WASPs in the 19 th Century equated Irish and Italians with the Devil and swore on a stack of Bibles that if they were ever allowed to come to power the world would stop. They did, it did not.
The same will happen with these other hyphenated groups. This is simply the circle of life in America. We want it to stay the same but the system was designed to insure it changed with the times. That was/is the genius of it.
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Gee Whiz, guys! This news piece is about some of our young students expressing concerns
about consequences in delaying judgement on a lawsuit. Why do you have to beat the heck out
of reservation life every time a Native American takes a stand. Step down, people, but first,
apologize…..I’m waiting.
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Nothin’! Not one apology. I give up. Thanks for , well, nothin’.
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Sorry Alvin. No apology from me about beating the drum regarding Rez life. it is a travesty. I am completely serious when I say if the Rez was a third world country the UN would be demanding peace keepers to stop the genocide.
You have to look at what is going on there and go: This is America?
Nope, sorry Alvin. You and I are not going to agree on this one (and that is unusual).
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Let me get this straight. You want the whole world to have an 80% unemployment rate, 80% alcoholism & drug abuse rate, a 20% fetal alcohol syndrome rate, 1/3 of all women to be victims of sexual violence, a murder rate for women that is 10 times the national average, a high school drop out rate three times the national average, & an infant mortality rate twice the national average.
To lighten things up a bit, in 2005 the Pine Ridge Reservation accounted for 2/3 of the reported gonorrhea cases in the entire state of SD.
You have consistently shown yourself willing to say anything to discredit nickname foes, but I did not realize you believe in plunging the entire world into another dark ages.
Please let me know when you run for office. Nothing personal but I won’t be voting for you.
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Always: as an aside your veneration of the Rez is amusing. Remember the Rez is a white man’s invention. As Grandforkian so aptly pointed out, they came about AFTER settlers took what they wanted, not before.
How did Native Americans feel about the reservation system? A quick biography of Sitting Bull – you know, the guy on the horse in front of the Ralph – should answer that question in short order.
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Flying nurse… I am nearly certain that wherever you call home may have also belonged to a native american tribe at some time… are you ready to hand over the deed to said property? If not, then let it go. We ALL own land that may have belonged to someone else and may have been taken by force… I don’t see a lot of freebies being given out by northern plains residents. Nor do I see many folks wanting to swap acres from GF to Belcourt.
As for the nickname discussion… here’s a point… what comes of it after the lefties win? Does the native american situation get better overnight? I think not…I think the bleeding hearts get to feel good for a few minutes and then more on to the next “feel good” issue that they’ve decided needs attention…nothing more, nothing less.
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Two separate issues Fmj: The nickname is wrong because it perpetuates a stereotype that is not anywhere close to the reality. It is racist and many, but by no means all Indians find it offensive. There are two sides to the argument but for me the preponderance of evidence suggests it should go. As a student and now alumni at UND, the distraction it has caused is more than enough reason to let it go, regardless of whether or not it honors or demeans Native Americans. It is hampering the work of the University, so it has to go.
As for the reservation system: they are a travesty but completely separate from the nickname issue. If the name stays, they will still be a cesspool of hopelessness. If the nickname goes, it will not affect Native life one iota.
Always and his side have argued that if the nickname goes no one will ever think of Native Americans again. That it is only the attention brought to the tribes by the use of the name that keep them in the public eye. I find that hyperbolic at best and downright wear your sheets instead of sleep on them at worst.
Two separate issues. The problems on the reservation are so deep, and so ingrained that it will take a lot more than changing one cartoon character and advertising gimmick for another to fix them.
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Perpetuates a stereotype?
Admittedly, there are some ignorant people out there (see NCAA). But to believe that the use of Native American imagery would make people believe that it portrays contemporary Native Americans is as likely as the leprechaun of the Fighting Irish making people believe in leprechauns…pretty silly.
As to your second contention, not changing anything on the rez. I could not agree more, it won’t change a thing. On the rez…. or off the rez.
I have said all along, and now it appears you agree…the NCAA accomplishes absolutely NOTHING with this ignorant and racist policy.
They implement it for their own selfish reasons, they have less regard for Native Americans…than you do.
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Nice try Always. You failed but I give you props for trying.
The nickname issue was never about the rez…the rez only entered into it when you needed their vote.
As I said above, the rez needs much more than a name change to make it anything other than a national disgrace.
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fyi ceromony 1969 Illegal…1978 native americans were finally given the right to practice there the religion..
Feathers …warbonnet on professor illegal.. no non-native can have or use eagle feathers…if und allow this it is a federal violation..
indian names can be change or handed on….up to und….
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What takes precedent, culture, color, or Constitution? You talk Treyvon Martin it seems to be color. If you refer to Native Americans is looks like culture and if you look at America it should be the Constitution.
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Outstanding question. I am serious. Truly first rate. Here is my take: legally it is the Constitution. That is the document that defines us as a country.
As for culture or race, it depends on where you are & what the situation is. No cut & dried answer.
Did you read about the tweets that started flying after an African American player on the Washington Cardnals scored the winning goal that knocked Boston out of the playoffs? Obviously race.
In prison (from what my patient’stell me) it is all about race. You may live in an interracial household, but once the bars shut you are white, black, brown, or a bottom.
In AZ a lot deals with La Raza, the race, but. In actuality it is about culture. Depending on the tribe, most of the American Indians have Spanish sir names & almost every MX family has at least one white dude grafted in by marriage. They talk race but it is really culture.
Race & cultures are also so intertwined, & intermixed that there is no such thing as pure MX, pure black, or pure white.
Mitt Romney’s grandfather is MX, most blacks have white offspring &/or relatives, & white’s are by & large mutts. I’m not even sure what I am. Dutch, German, probably some Eastern European thrown in for fun
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Actually Romney’s grandfather may have been born in Mexico, but was not Mexican in the sense we usually ascribe heritage. Mitt’s great grandfather fled the US along with many other mormons who openly practiced bigamy (and thus were persecuted in the US) for some decades. A law banning bigamy along with US Marshall’s arrests of mormons who practiced it drove Mitts Great Grandfather–his multiple wives and many children by them–and others out of the country. They did well there–starting from nothing and became wealthy by mexican standards of the time–but were chased back to the U.S. by Pancho Villa during the mexican revolution.
Lowrent you are accurate in your portrayal of culture being very important to native americans.
And FN I think you would find it interesting to ask band members what their view of governance via the constitution is.
Had the NCAA, UND, and the SBOHE considered band culture and involved them in discussions over the nickname and it’s fate–we would not be where we are today.
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I hear what you are saying Tim, but if you are born in MX & grew up there, you are MX. One of the news outlets did a story about his cousins who are still there. Most have dual citizenship but make no mistake, they are gueros (light skinned MX).
Culture is funny. My wife’s grandparents jumped the border in 1914 at the behest of Uncle Sam (AZ needed workers). She is 2 generation US & fluent. Her kids don’t speak Spanish (big mistake on her part), but consider themselves MX. Not in terms of citizenry, but culture.
If outside the country they tell everyone they are American, within the US they describe themselves as MX.
You figure it out. It is beyond me. For fun I used to only talk to Bordr Patrol in Spanish, but unfortunately most of them are more fluent than I am. Takes all the fun out of it
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“Her kids don’t speak Spanish (big mistake on her part)”
Knowing a second language is a good thing.
However, it used to be that people came to the US because they wanted to be United States citizens. Unfortunately, that is not the case anymore.
You can thank your liberal buddies for that mindset.
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Always: what does speaking English have to do with citizenship? Last time I checked we have no official language. What about all of the babushkas in ND who speak primarily Norwegian or Swedish.
Also if she is the second generation born in this country, they are the third. They don’t have to want to be citizens; they are.
Finally Always, if you live in the southwest & want a decent job, you had better bilingual. When 60% of your customers are Hispanic, you had better be able to speak the lingo.
I know more than a few brown skin Americans who were born & raised here, have professional degrees, & as a response to Governor Brewer & Sherrif Joe never talk to anyone in either government or business in English. One little sorority girl lost a $1 million house deal with a MD because she couldn’t habla. Bad Christmas for her
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In the interest of full disclosure, one of the pilots I work with refuses to spend his money in any establishment where the employees do not speak English. The closer you get to the border that means he brings his lunch because all of the fast food joints are staffed by ESL (English as a Second Language) workers.
I love this. The interplay between the doctor who would not use a realtor who did not speak Spanish and the pilot who will not go where people do not speak English is what America and more importantly capitalism is all about. It is a living civics lesson.
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Don’t agree–what about kids born to parents working or in the service overseas–who move back to the states for most of their growing years?
Mitt’s grandfather was born in MX but was back in the states before he was 6 years old, grew up and spent the rest of his life in the states.
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Then I would say he is US. The story I read had him spending more than his early childhood in MX.
More than that I want to see how it plays during the election. Everyone had a fit over the Big O having an African father & Muslim relatives. Maybe being MX will all the sudden become cool.
Remember George W & Rick Perry speaking Spanish on the campaign trail & Rush thinking it was great then having one of his classic Oxycodone withdrawal induced meltdown over Bill Richardson – who really is of serious MX descent – doing the same?
Fortunately for the GOP all but the most ardent Tea Party advocates & cretins know to take Rush with a big grain of salt
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