Nickname defenders assert tribal sovereignty
March 22, 2012 at 10:57 am in Grand Forks Herald
Spirit Lake group suing NCAA argues against dismissalThe Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe’s attorney relies heavily on the contested 1969 “naming ceremony” that allegedly gave UND the right to use the Sioux name. Continue Reading
I seriously wish that SL prevails. At least any institution in the future would have no concerns over using such tribal names. Where is the ND Supreme Court decision?
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How could anyone state that The Spirit Lake Sioux are “an outside force” when it comes to the use of their name?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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FN, I like to read all your comments and have a lot of respect for you. But when you say “The Sioux are a third party. The name belongs to the state & the school.”
I have to disagree with you.
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Simple I see both sides of the argument and I really do not have an investment on either side of the issue. Do I think the name is hostile and abusive, no. Do I think this is a bunch of PC bull yes. Is the NCAA ignoring the facts to meet their own agenda, yes. Do some Native Americans object to the use of the name, most certainly. If you know anything about politics on the reservations, at least the ones I have been on, elections often have more to do with which family you belong to rather than how you stand on the issues. The NCAA is simply acting on its own prejudice assumptions about Native Americans feelings and what is harmful to them. They do not involve them in the negotiations, SL and SR should have been at the center of them. But in the end if the name goes away it will in no way affect me.
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@FN – I know that you hate to allow facts to interrupt your fanatical hatred of anyone, for any reason, trying to put a stop to the NCAA. But, here are, from what I have been able to find, the only national polls done on the subject regarding the use of Native American names/logos:
SI Poll article:
://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/magazine/08/17/indian.wars030402/index.html
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Indeed, a recent SI poll suggests that although Native American activists are virtually united in opposition to the use of Indian nicknames and mascots, the Native American population sees the issue far differently. Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no. As for pro sports, 83% of Native American respondents said teams should not stop using Indian nicknames, mascots, characters and symbols. Opinion is far more divided on reservations, yet a majority (67%) there said the usage by pro teams should not cease, while 32% said it should.
Then there is a paper from Annenberg Public Policy Center:
w.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/downloads/political_communication/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf
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The Annenberg paper states that “91% of the respondents are not bothered by ‘Washington Redskins’”. Read on!
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The SL Tribe is asserting their right to be heard! The SL Tribe is asserting that the only parties that need to be involved in this issue are SL, SR, UND & the State of ND> The SL Tribe is asserting that they do not nbeed an outside group (NCAA) to tell them how to feel and how to take care of themselves.
BTW – no one that I know of within CUR, has ever stated that they “speak for all people, inculding within their own Tribe”. You are confusing the members of CUR with Taken Alive, Hotrse Thunders, Ganje, Longie, Jeanotte, etc. Yes, there are pepole who do not like, and even hate, the Fighting Sioux name/logo. But, they are a minority within a minority, when does it stop? With one person being offended?
The NCAA’s Mootoin to Dismiss in scheduled for Fargo, April 19th and should be an interesting afternoon…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Maybe we will see each other there. I will be presenting my capstone and defending my thesis that week, but I have left the 19 open to try and attend.
Out of all the articles I like the one from Eunice the best. She laid out her case cogently and with class. She also stated very plainly that SR is entitled to their own politics, and that it was not her place to comment.
In effect what she was saying is what the anti nickname side has been saying all along: UND did not deliver on the deal made with the NCAA.
Was the deal smart? Fair? In the best interests of the people involved? I will leave that for the historians to figure out.
I have said many times I think the deal was doomed from the outset because anyone who can read a newspaper knew SR was against the name and had been since the 1980s. Since the deal plainly called for the acquiescence of SR, it was dead on arrival.
I do not know if I agree the tribes should have been at the table. I am not sure how I feel about it. I have to give it some more thought.
There are good arguments on both sides. The tribes have a say because it is Native American groups that approached the NCAA in the first place. The NCAA did not come up with the idea to ban Native American imagery on their own. It was brought to them over the course of many years by various Native groups. It was not a “wake up one morning and decide Native mascots are bad” type of deal. It was instigated by Native American activist groups outside of the NCAA.
That said, UND is a state school. It is tax supported. That is why people who have never attended and have no relationship with the school are part of this conversation. Their tax dollars buy them a seat at the table. In the end it must be the people of ND who decide: do we keep the name and ditch the NCAA or keep the NCAA and ditch the name.
Remember, we already sued the NCAA once, and not even Uncle Al is suggesting we go down that road again.
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“are they all just PC goof balls?” the answer to your question is yes.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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FN – this is where you and I are going to disagree. If any group of people have the right to sue the NCAA over this issue it is the Native American People. Their rights under the constitution and law should be sacrosanct over the use of their name and their imagery.
I don’t believe they are saying that UND ‘has’ to use their name, in fact quite the opposite. I believe they are saying that UND, the Native Americans and the State of North Dakota in unison should be the only people able to decide if the school uses the name or not..
The Natives Americans in the United States are a very proud people, and they should be quite honestly. The white man tried everything back in the day to be rid of them and their culture. Yet their continue to survive and make their way in this world. Using whatever opportunities they can to improve their lives through their own means. They deserve your respect and support.
It is up to them as a sovereign nation to settle their own internal strife over the use of their name, and again is their right and not our issue.. They have their counsel that they elect to positions to represent them. Just like we do, and for someone who pushes that point so often in their posts, I find what you have written more than disingenuous.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Flying, I can’t help but jump in one more time. Simple facts; more than 2/3rds of Native Americans support the names and imagery. For three years the State Board kept saying the issues is in the hands of the Sioux. The normal requirement for exemption from the NCAA policy is “A Namesake Tribe”. The opposition is less than 1/3rd of Native Americans but are very load and have been at it for more than 30 years.
So just what has happened here? This issue is not about if the name and logo are Hostile or Abusive and even the NCAA has said so in the Settlement/Agreement. This issue is not about protecting the Native Americans, because that is who they are fighting.
This issue is about the NCAA with egg on it’s face for knuckling under to at least 8 big Universities and there going to make an example of this little State. They have been aided by a State Board filled with racist and wimps and who are for sale. The State Board has been working since Ralph Engalstads passing to get rid of the name and logo. They have had the power all along to change the name but they also knew the citizens of North Dakota would not allow it so they went to work to blame the Sioux and the NCAA. Both the NCAA and the State Board have only worked with the opposition and turned a deaf ear to supporters in the Native Community.
Now if you believe your opinion is more valuable than any others and if you believe it is OK to use a Race of people as a pawn to get what you want, than there is nothing that can be said to change your mind.
I will admit there are honorable people who oppose the name, but they are not the load mouths that use lies and distortions to try and convince people to join them. They respect the majority’s voice even though they might not agree.
Spirit Lake has been on record since 1969 in support of the name and that is all an honest NCAA would have needed. But the key word is HONEST.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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They are.. But I won’t vote to harm UND either… If they can’t get their stuff together in their last ditch attempt.. I will vote to protect the school. To do otherwise would be to cut off your nose to spite your face.
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Mato:
Where are you getting your numbers (respectful question, not a jab)? I believe that 2/3 of SL are for the name. No argument there.
SL is not the Sioux Nation.
SR is against the name and has been on record as such since the 1980s. Every major Sioux group outside of North Dakota (which comprise 2/3 of the total according to the latest census data 1/3 of Sioux live in ND and 2/3 live outside the state, the majority being in South Dakota) are on record as being against the name.
I guess if you are saying SL speaks for the Sioux in this matter, you are correct, 2/3 are in favor of keeping the name. I would be very careful making that statement though. In the article in the Harald a few weeks back Eunice was very clear that she speaks for her tribe, not for all Sioux and she specifically stated SR disagrees with her.
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Classic politicians: “No, no. You don’t know what’s best for you, we do. You just can’t see it.”
They can’t campaign to help someone if they don’t keep them down.
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If the truth be told:
there is more than a little culpability that rests with AG Stenejhem and the SBHE.
Although the court filings by the NCAA are a bit confusing….they say the people that they want to make the decision have no authority to make the decision?
It appears they may have hired Stenejhem to write their brief…
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I have been saying that all along Always. Anyone who can read a newspaper knows that SR has been against the name since the 1980s. To cut a deal that requires their support was guaranteeing its failure.
The AG is either incompetent or the smartest person in the room. If you are for the name you have only yourselves to blame since you re-elected him after the deal.
If you believe in conspiracy theories, you may begin to wonder who was advising him to make a deal that was doomed to fail? My bet is UND and the SBHE.
They knew the name would eventually poison relations with the NCAA so they were maneuvering things to get rid of it.
Again, that is pure conspiracy theory but it makes for a good spy novel read.
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And you must cut Flying a break.
He is from an area that the Tohono Odham tribe has a large reservation.
I have worked in that area….the attitudes of the people off the reservation of the TO’s as they call them harkens back to about thirty years ago in North Dakota.
I worked there…I thought they were great…but My experience on the res in ND was positive also.
Flying is just regurgitating what he hears…and basing his opinion on his superficial observations of the Tohono O’odham people.
If he spent real time there he would respect them and their way of life also..I am sire of that.
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I appreciate your thoughts Always, but completely unnecessary. I came to my views on the problems facing Native Americans the old fashioned way: I earned them.
I am certainly not going to apologize for them. You should not either.
I am glad you had a good time on the TO. As we have discussed before, I find very little of redeeming value there. It is a cesspool of institutionalized hopelessness and violence.
I have mentioned before and I am completely serious: if the TO or Pine Ridge were third world countries, the UN would be demanding peace keepers be sent in to halt the genocide that is taking place there.
When I read your comments about what a wonderful time you had there I wonder if you have the heart of a missionary or were on a different reservation than me, because I can find no trace of the land you are describing.
As for spending a sufficient amount of quality time to form an opinion, I believe we went over this too. I spent more time there than you. I used to be on the TO once a shift and I lived on the San Carlos Apache reservation for a month. That is not counting all the time I have spent on White Mountain Apache reservation.
Like I said Always, I admire your missionary spirit. Unfortunately in my line of work that is frowned upon. We get to deal with reality and let everyone else make the excuses. I just plug the holes (gun shots, stabbings), deal with the effects of chronic alcoholism and diabetes, and birth babies who are born with three strikes against them before they ever take their first breath of air.
I want someone to make this nightmare stop. If getting rid of a cartoon helps that, then I am all for its removal. If I believed that keeping the cartoon would give these people a sense of purpose and help them crawl out of the hole they have got themselves in I would tattoo it on my chest.
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FN your true colors re: this issue are certainly shining through now!
It’s not that the petitioners–which include a large number of standing rock members in support–want to be the SOLE arbiter of a decision here, as you attest.
You are not listening to them. They are saying they were not included in any plan to make the decision! And that they have a belief–supported by evidence–that the NCAA was deferring a decision to them–while at the same time, not consulting them!
It’s hard to argue against that position from any objective viewpoint, in my view.
It’s exactly as I have said multiple times. Going forward to ban the name with all of the questions unsettled will NOT resolve the issue, it will fester and linger for decades, dragging the state, UND and others along with it.
I hope now it is clear that resolution of the major issues needs to occur first–THEN a decision can be made.
It should be clear now that band members need to part of any plan for the nickname discussions. To not do so is clearly creating rancor in the tribes as well, trouble that will NOT go away if the nickname is just dropped.
Back up, do this right. The decision in the end might still be to drop the name. Or it might be to keep it. If the bands are on board throughout that decision process–including an understanding of their position by numbers, not just what individuals think–then an honorable decision can be made.
Going forward with current plans which are clearly based only on an NCAA-prescribed mandate and ATHLETIC–not racial harm–dishonor UND, the NCAA, SBOHE, the state, AND the tribes and their members.
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If the NCAA had bothered to read the “study” that they site as the impetus of their policy they would have come to the same conclusion that you just arrive at…
They did not …because the pinheads at the NCAA are just like the the Berkeley trained President Kelley of UND.
They pretend to care about Native Americans but it is only a sham to maintain control over the ” victims” of the oppressors.
That disingenuous and phony behavior works with the ignorant sycophants…it just doesn’t make the grade in good old North Dakota.
You have to respect that.
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Tim,
I have heard your argument before, and it has some merit, but from a practical point of view what does it mean?
The State of North Dakota made a deal with the NCAA. It did not keep that deal so we now have to either retire the name or face sanctions.
Should SR and SL been involved in the deal? There are arguments for both sides. My take: it certainly would not have hurt.
But we are talking “if only” here. The fact remains the state made the deal — contrary to what everyone says, UND belongs to the state, it is they who have the final say over what the name will be or not be.
Are you proposing filing another law suit against the NCAA and asking for a new deal? Not even Uncle Al is calling for that.
I see your point, but the fact remains it is too late for “if only.” I honestly do not see where you can go from here.
It would take another law suit, and I do not think anyone has the stomach for that.
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I wish someone had listened to you before the deal was struck. Like I said, I agree in principle with what you are saying. Convening some type of commission to study the issue and make recommendations to either the SBHE or the legislature – whomever the Supreme Court decides controls the name.
That is what should have happened. We could still do it, but during the time we are studying the issue the NCAA sanctions remain in place.
This should have happened then, but it did not. No amount of wishful thinking can change that.
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Don and Always (and anyone else who would like to chime in): I want your opinion on this:
I was talking with some friends tonight about this whole blame game with the NCAA.
It is undeniable that if the NCAA did not come out with their anti nickname policy, we would not be having this discussion. But it is wrong to place all the blame on the NCAA for several reasons.
1. The NCAA did not come up with this on their own. They came up with this policy at the behest of Native American activist groups who lobbied for it. If these Native groups had not lobbied the NCAA they would never have promulgated the policy. Why is no one blaming those groups?
2. Blaming outside parties is simply a way to avoid looking in the mirror. SR was against the name long before the NCAA made a peep. The political trend away from Native names and imagery has been gaining momentum since American Indian Movement in the 1970s. The NCAA was actually late to the game.
The NCAA is a convenient scapegoat, but I am not convinced that is intellectually honest.
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Flying,
1. You are right that small groups did lobby the NCAA against any names or imagery, but the NCAA has turned their heads away from almost all legitimate complaints, what makes this issue different for them?
2. Al Carlson listened to the Sioux of N. D. and the citizens also before sponsoring the law and he lives in N. D.
3. AIM has gotten people killed and do not have the support of most Native Americans but they do intimidate.
4. Sports Illustrated survey of 2001 found 80% of Native Americans over all and 67% of those living on reservations support names and imagery.
5. Any way you want to say it, the members of S.R. have asked for their voice but have been denied by their leaders.
6. I could go on and on but I won’t because nothing well change your mind I’ll stop here.
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Mayo: one quick question? Who speaks for the Sioux tribe in ND? SD? NE?
Who is charged with deciding this issue? The Sioux athlete in yesterday’s article said this issue is dividing her family & causing pain. She chooses to blame the NCAA.
If Indian Country is so divided, who speaks for them? Only nickname supporters?
Don posted that same study regarding all the people on the res who are for Native names & mascots. If that is so how come every major Indian organization is against them?
Do not respond with how tribal elections are corrupt & co-opted by only a few families. That is insulting. Even if it is 100% true that is their business. They are sovereign, remember? Or does that sovereignty only exist as long as they agree with you?
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Flying, Spirit Lake is 90 miles from UND. Members travel to Grand Forks all the time for shopping, entertainment, medical and even sports. They will feel the repercussions of how ever it turns out, more than Santee Neb, South Dakota S.R., South Dakota Cheyenne River or any others. Just as Saginaw Chippewa tribe of Michigan said when the other 10 tribes IN Michigan opposed Central Michigan Chippewa “Stay the hell out of our business” because they had the most to lose. As for the students they have thousands of other collages to spend their life at if they don’t like the surroundings. Native students who go to UND for education, find no trouble at UND and get their education and move on. They don’t make a career out of staying on campus at UND for life. Also UND is the north DAKOTA Fighting Sioux, not the north Lakota Fighting Sioux. The Sioux Nation is not made up of just tribal government, if that is all there was there would be NONE,. It is made up of tribal members and if the government chooses to silence them, they have taken themselves out of the argument.
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FN, It can clearly be argued that the use of the name/logo has been more of a positive than a negative. To argue otherwise is to engage in “radical chic” by maintaining that the name/logo has been a factor in preventing more pressing reservation issues from being solved. The 1969 SACRED ceremony likely happened because the tribal elders knew UND was working hard to honor their history by creating academic opportunities for Natives. The fact that the NCAA agreed in the lawsuit settlement to cease referring to the UND campus as hostile & abusive has something to do with the existence of a large # of Native academic programs that likely wouldn’t exist if UND hadn’t used the Sioux name for its athletic teams. NDSU, as the “Bison”, has done nowhere near the amount of work to create a welcoming academic environment for the Dakota people. Of course one could argue that NDSU is welcoming by definition because its nickname is not a ref. to Native Americans. But even though that makes some sense NDSU has not created near the # of opportunities that UND developed for the state’s tribal members. The NCAA was responding to AIM demands that Native names be discontinued but the cultural heat of the 1960s/70s was such that there was no interest in seeing objectively what UND was accomplishing for Native peoples under the leadership of President George Starcher & President Tom Clifford. Might that be the reason that Tom Clifford told me before he passed that the name would never change because he was present when the discussion between UND & the tribes happened & understood the depth of positive feeling that existed between them.
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Spearman. I agree with almost everything you say. UND has made & continues to make a concerted effort to attract & retain Native students. There is no argument there. UND continues to provide a list of services (a private residence so they can hang, tutors – I was one for a semester – computer resources, a full time dedicated staff person) that some Indian colleges don’t match.
I completely support this. Are you arguing these programs will be written out of the budget once we complete transitioning from the name?
As an aside, When I worked there the posters on the wall were for losing the name, not keeping it
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Of course they won’t be written out of the budget but they were never written into a budget at NDSU’s “Bisonland”. UND wrote them into the budget because of its identity with the “SIOUX”. It may be though that when UND is known as the “Flyers” or the “Roughnecks” there will be even more interest in writing into the budget programs that cater to those 2 industries instead of continuing to expand Native program budgets.
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I hear what you are saying Spearman, but I hope you are wrong. I addressed the “if we call UND something else, the Sioux will be erased from history” fallacy earlier.
I find that view repugnant because it says Indian culture is dependent upon the support and acquiescence of white supporters to survive. Do you understand what I am trying to say? If Native People have to rely on anglo cooperation to survive, they are already dead.
I think they will do just fine without the name. I despise the reservation system and everything it stands for. I think it is akin to genocide, cultural and physical.
That said, I do not despise Native people. Quite the opposite. That is why I have spent so much time working there.
I believe if we truly cared for Native people as a culture we would shut the reservations down. They are a cesspool of hopelessness. Every Native physician I have spoken to say the same thing: there is no reason for an American Indian not to succeed in college. There are tons of programs to make sure they get what they need. The caveat is they have to leave the rez.
Every single one of these MD said that. This was at different times and in different states, yet they all said the same thing: if you want to succeed you have to leave.
I want Native kids to succeed. I want to help them leave.
Rather than the end of their culture, I would argue it would enhance it. Ever been to the southwest? What happened when MX ceded the southwest to the US? Did the MX culture die?
Hardly, in fact the opposite is true. Not only did the Hispanic culture survive, it thrived. In terms of influence it is obvious that MX culture has influenced the US much more than US culture has influenced MX.
As the kids say: La Raza, (the race), we are taking the land back.
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FN, Don’t try to change the argument I am making. Speak to the points I make & not reiterate ones already digestsed.
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Spear: I did address your points. I agreed that UND has more Indian programs than any other university in the state. If we go back to the flickertails or become the Northern Lights or the Sun Dogs (my favorite) I doubt that there will be a new department at UND because of the name. I also doubt that the Indian Studies Program and the tutoring center will be unfunded (Although with Uncle Al in charge you never know. Funding IS a responsibility of the legislature under the constitution).
And again, I disagree the Sioux will cease to be a cultural factor because a little known University in a state the average American has trouble finding on the map changed their nickname.
I addressed your points. I just think they are wrong.
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Again FN you use a strawman argument. I didn’t say a new dept. would be formed because we choose a name like Roughnecks or Flyers. Those dept. already exist in the form of the Geology Dept. & Aviation. Since it is true that Native academic programs came into existence because of the identity of UND as the Sioux then logically they wouldn’t keep expanding or be seen as relevant as they would be if the name was kept. Your strawman emphasis is the attempt to suggest the discussion is about whether the Sioux would disappear as culture. That has never been my position.
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flyingnurse – When do you have time to work? If I posted as much online as you do I’d never get anything done.
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Vacation. I go back to work tomorrow then finish moving my stuff up next month. God I hope I don’t learn to regret my decision to move back.
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I am sure most No Dakn’s share your trepidation.
Just Kidding.
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I like this logic. I think we should apply it everywhere. Since I’m from Minnesota, and we use oil, we should just say it’s our oil and come take it from North Dakota.
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If the oil was in Minnesota…no one could get at it because your boy Frankenstein and his liberal limousine buddies (Barbara Boxer for instance) would not allow it.
They can fly around and ride in limousines……………..
You can walk.
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That’s why we’re taking the oil from ND. We just say we granted ND the right to explore for oil back in the 50s, so it’s actually ours.
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Maybe the Construction company that being arrested for fraud can get the oil…..when they get out of prison.
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Oh, now you’re just making stuff up. And trying to prevent us from having our oil. Shame on you. I should take you to court.
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MEN’S HOCKEY: UND’s new jerseys unveiled
http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/232795/
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I like the retro look. With or without the controversy I think they would make a good uniform.
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FN, glad to hear you like the Fighting Dakotas.
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@FN: “Don posted that same study regarding all the people on the res who are for Native names & mascots. If that is so how come every major Indian organization is against them?”
That’s very easy: the people who are on the councils are the Activists on their respective reservations, and as such, are among the Minority when it comes to name/logos. BTW: your continued description of the Fighting Sioux Logo is disrespectful and racist. It is a work of Art that has been admired by members of many tribes, you are the only person that I have ever heard take any negative view of it (other than “it was made by a Chippewa, not a Sioux”).
Elsewhere, you accused me of believing that I feel that “…all members of Spirit Lake & Standing Rock” are in favor of the Fighting Sioux name/logo: what is your reading comprehension level? For over 20 years, I have said, repeatedly, that Taken Alive, Jeanotte, Ganje, Horse is Thunder, Longie, et el, have represented themselves, falsely, as being the representatives of the majority. Which they are not! Yes, there is a loud group of Anti’s that want to reinvent history, and finally, the majority of members on bother Spirit Lake & Standing Rock have stood up and asked to be heard.
As for blaming the NCAA, you’re right: they should have asked for members of the Sioux Tribes, who represented the majority voice, to their conference table. That is what this is about: the right to be heard regarding how your race is treated. Again: where does this PC stuff end? When is a majority of the Minority not enough? Can you imagine someone that you have no knowledge of, telling you to make chnages in the way that you perceive yourself, without any input?
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