Locla view: Vote to stop threats to marriage in Minnesota
March 20, 2012 at 7:00 pm in Duluth News Tribune
One of the objections to the proposed marriage amendment is: “We don’t need a marriage amendment because same-sex marriage is already illegal in Minnesota.” This shortsighted argument ignores that marriage has been under assault in the state Legislature and in our courts for several years.
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Perhaps if this group also was working hard on eliminating divorce from our culture, he would have more clout. As is, it is simply an off-shoot of hate against homosexuals. Divorce between heterosexual couples is a leading cause of poverty in America, a leading cause of behavioral issues in children in America, and does far more to destroy “marriage” than two men or two women wanting to pledge their lives to each other. And no, I’m not “gay”, or “lesbian”, and I don’t actually know anyone who is, I don’t think. But I see lots of broken marriages and cheaters in my community, and harmed children.
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You’re totally right. The gays should be as miserable as everybody else is.
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This is just goofy, at least the writer admits it is just about a ‘definition’. Millions of dollars wasted on a vocabulary argument. The truth seems to be that old boy Mitt is going to be the choice of the party elite and they know they can not get the faithful conservative R’s to turn out for him. What is needed around the country is gutter political strategy to rally the faithful to turn out on election day. Good luck with that.
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What are the anti-equality people so afraid of? Gay people do not want to harm, threaten, or do away with their straight marriages. Live and let live.
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Lee said~ “Marriage has been defined as man/woman in virtually all civilizations and cultures, with rare exceptions, since the beginning of time; has mankind changed in some way so that the definition should be altered for some reason”
Me~ Slavery existed since the beginning of time in all cultures also with rare if any exceptions ….mankind changed and progressed and realized that the oppression of others rights and enslavement was wrong. Hint~ It’s called progress and becoming more enlightened but since the beginning of time there has also always been the crabs in the bucket that were willing to even go to war to fight progress and defend things just because it had been that way as long as can remember. That they did it this way forever is never an argument that holds water against us evolving and being more enlightened or against any form of progress. It is also ironically, never been the position that has stood the test of time.
You as well as the author are also completely wrong on this point in context of this discussion. Marriage has NOT been since the beginning of time been solely a government sanctioned and created institution for the sole purpose of providing legal rights and legal benefits not available to those who are not married.
THAT is the issue, equality and equal rights. The trouble with those oppossed to gay marriage is they keep wanting to make it about sex and some twisted perceived Christian morality. You’re entitled in this country the luxury of the freedom and protection to believe whatever you want. If you think gay marriage is immoral, goes against your religious beliefs and lessens the “sanctity” of some man made government institution then would suggest you not then enter into a gay marriage. That would be you upholding your religious and personal beliefs. You have another moral obligation though as a Citizen of this country to defend others equals rights regardless and even if in spite of your own beliefs religious or otherwise.
Sigh…over and over the phrase is used by the anti-gay holier then thou crowd…that we must protect the “sanctity” of marriage. That is pure and unadulterated BS….and what nobody brings up to counter that BS is that we give those same legal benefits to those that DON’T get married and to some who even refuse to get married that we are refusing to gays who want to get married. Everyone overlooks…common law marriage…where we give those people the legal protection and rights if they’ve just shacked up long enough…and real unclear where there is any “sanctity of marriage” in that.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Your comments about slavery are very true, including the one about slavery being wrong. In fact, slavery is illegal in every nation on earth. Marriage, however, in virtually every nation on earth continues to be defined as between a man and a woman. Why? Because it is right and true. Whether it is according to the government, or the church, or by society as a whole, marriage has always been recognized as man/woman.
You say that if I think same sex marriage is wrong or immoral then don’t do it. I say that if you want the same benefits that are accorded to married (man/woman) people, then get married to someone of the opposite sex. You will then be entitled to the same benefits. Even though I was born in th USA and have lived here all of my life, I am not entitled to benefits that are reserved for Native Americans. I am not entitled to any special benefits of any group that I am not a part of. Redefining words does not change that.
The gay community keeps accusing the rest of us of forcing our morals and religious faith on others, yet why is this discussion even taking place? Because a minority group that represents a small fraction (about 3%) of the population wants the rest of us to cater to their desires, to recognize their lifestyle as being normal, and to equate it to something that it is not, to redefine the meaning of marriage to suit their agenda. Again, what about truth? From a biological, physiological, anatomical, and historical standpoint same sex relationships are wrong. But I still don’t care if that is what you want to do, just leave the rest of us out of it. As for common law marriages, at least they are man/woman relationships.
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Lee~”But I still don’t care if that is what you want to do, just leave the rest of us out of it. As for common law marriages, at least they are man/woman relationships.”
Well that didn’t take long to get to the truth, clearly your only issue is obviously the sex part that bothers you. Why oh why do you anti-gay folks think that what another couple does impacts your marriage? I can’t fathom the lack of self esteem or level of fragility for one to even think that makes sense.
Figured that common law marriages would out you. So it isn’t about the sanctity of marriage because you just essentially said above you don’t give two craps about that so we can toss that argument out. You have no problem in your statement giving those legal rights to people who aren’t married so that negates your whole argument about marriage since the beginning of time BS also. So all that’s left is that you just don’t like the thought of same sex couples. To each his own and you are clearly entitled to think whatever you want regardless of how narrow minded it is. That’s what makes this country great. But again, as a citizen of this great country it’s your obligation to also ensure that people’s equal rights are not negated nor denied because of a prejudice based solely on their religious beliefs, their race or their sex. Your narrow minded bigotry based solely on some twisted preconceived notions is preventing you from upholding that oath you took.
BTW..shouldn’t matter except probably does to you. Am straight hetro, can’t even say have gay friends..LOL. Been married but now single. I really don’t think it’s fair that you, as assume married, enjoy certain tax benefits that I am punished for now that technically single and kids grown and that I have to pay for your tax breaks. So have an easy solution for everyone that been overlooked. Have all the married hetro’s give up their legal and tax benefits to make everyone equal and it no longer becomes a government sanction rights issue and then it does become what all the anti-gays think it is to begin with and that is a religious issue.
Sidebar~ Hats off to the Repubs for doing nothing about creating jobs but knowing that their conservative base can easily be riled and worked up over trying to dictate conservative morals and that gay issue a hot button for real uptight narrow minded conservatives. Great strategy, whether win or lose on vote, Gay marriage is still illegal, but the sheeple been totally worked up over a non-issue and probably think the Repubs have their best interests at heart because apparently if gay couples get legal rights then that would destroy conservatives marriages~ cuz clearly they all say and think it would!
Reinstate the 18th Century~ Vote Republican!
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Coughcough…Another whole plank of your argument and rational dismissed and even though you’ve already exposed yourself and your real reason for being against this couldn’t help pointing out the falsehood that you’ve used as center of your argument.
Lee~:Marriage, however, in virtually every nation on earth continues to be defined as between a man and a woman. Why? Because it is right and true.”
Then perhaps you’d like to explain if is so right and true why since 2001 that 10 countries have made same sex marriages legal? All these countries are major advanced countries also. They would be~ Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, and Sweden. In addition to those 10 Australia recognises same-sex marriages only by one partner changing their sex after marriage. As of 2012 proposals exist to permit same sex marriages in an additional 10 countries.
So you can scratch off your virtually every country because right and true schtick as an argument.
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On the other hand, if you go around treating people as depraved, what sort of reaction do you expect?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Oh yes, I remeber the way all those black people assaulted democracy by giving them the same rights as white people.
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Hugh, please learn what “tolerance” means. It does NOT mean “agrees with”. It means “willing to grant rights.” I’m more than willing to grant you the right to say whatever you want. But if you are unwilling to let ME voice my views, then you are unwilling to grant me to the right to my speech. That is the definition of intolerance.
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Deviant? Majority? Dude, you need to provide some sort of source for that comment. If you took a poll at your church just say so. If the Pew Research Institute took a national poll that had the word ‘deviant’ in a question about social understandings, that is a bit different.
Until then, I suspect your comment to be as baseless as a lot of the other fundamentalists on this issue. You are scared that yet another ‘law’ in the Bible is proven less than fully applicable to society today. It was easy to explain away Leviticus and nonconsumption of seafood, but this is a totally different matter for some reason. That deterioration of your personal belief is all that is at stake here. Just have faith and smile.
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The people of every state allowed to vote on this issue have soundly rejected it, usually by margins approaching 2-1.
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When regarding equal rights the majority rule isn’t an argument for supressing them. The majority in the south didn’t want to end slavery. The majority of nation supported Jim Crow laws, the majority of nation supported bans against inter-racial marriage. The majority of nation supported school segregation, the oppression of Blacks rights to vote, the beatings of Blacks for demonstrating for their equal rights.
On and on I can go on equal rights that were oppressed and denied simply because the majority forced their will upon the rights of those in a minority. The power of the majority may be able to do that, but it doesn’t mean they are right and it isn’t a justification for denying equal rights.
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Apparently, porn addiction is a major problem inside evangelical/fundamentalist churches.
So, maybe what gay/lesbians do isn’t so bad– as long as it’s stays on the internet.
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Ulysses, I really don’t care what “the word” is, as long as it’s the same word used for all couples. Using another word literally would require Minnesota to enact 515 new laws. (How’s that for big government?) And in every single instance, variations would allow legislators to treat the others unequally. In fact, in every single instance of using a different word, that HAS allowed legislators to treat couples differently. Separate is not equal. It never has been, it never will be.
What is important here is that we are talking about a civil institution. Churches and religions are free, as they always have been, to decide for themselves what marriage is. As well, individuals are free to choose which religion best meets their needs. But we only have one government, and government should never discriminate against its citizens, and this amendment would constitutionally mandate discrimination against the citizens of Minnesota.
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Maybe society should read history starting say with the former Roman Empire.
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Yes, totally. The lack of checks & balances, or a stable process of succession from one executive to the next, led to catastrophic civil wars throughout much of the Imperial period– and weakened the Empire to the point of internal collapse & foreign invasion.
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You all talk about “hate”and “discrimination” and “civil rights” and “morality” and things that really have nothing to do with the issue. What about “truth”? Men and women are different, and their differences complement each other for many reasons that are necessary for the propagation and maintainance of humanity on this earth. Whether you believe in a creator God or evolution doesn’t really matter; males and females are different for a reason. Again, we don’t hate you and really don’t care what your relationship is. And this is not about discrimination– how can you discriminate against something that doesn’t even apply? Marriage in Minnesota, and throughout history worldwide, has always been defined as man/woman. As to civil rights, you are free too pursue any relationship you desire, so this defination of marriage in no way restricts your civil rights. And morality changes frequently. What does NOT change is truth, but you choose to ignore the truth and ask the rest of us to do the same for your own vastly minority purposes. No. If you want the benefits of marriage, get married to a person of the opposite sex, as has always been the case.
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Here is perfect example of stone age reasoning.
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So you believe that gender discrimination should be enshrined in the constitution. Hey you women! Get back home and take care of kids because if a woman goes out and is the breadwinner while the man stays at home to care for the kids, what’s to say a woman can’t go out and be the breadwinner while the woman stays at home to care for the kids?
There is nothing, not one thing, stopping anyone from voluntarily using gender roles -if they wish to-, not even if marriage equality is legalized. What you want is to make gender roles -government policy- and enshrine that into the constitution.
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In an episode of Law and Order a few years ago, a man was on trial for sexually abusing a young boy. His defence was that as a member of the North American Man/Boy Love Association (it really exists) he was entitled to have sexual relations with a consenting minor. The police psychologist was shocked at the very thought of this grossly immoral action! The kicker– the psychologist was gay. He didn’t even see how one perversion of the truth led to another and another until we end up with NAMBLA. Just like drugs, one leads to another and another until we have lost our sense of right and wrong entirely, and become a nation of total immorality and perversion. Where do we make it stop? Right here, right now. Engage in whatever relationship you want (it’s your soul) but realize that it is your choice and your consequences.
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This has nothing to do with NAMBLA. This is about the rights of adults to marry. In fact, it’s a disgusting stereotype that deflects from the argument. You might as well say “Catholic priests were charged with pedophilia, therefore all Catholics shouldn’t be allowed to marry,” because they’re both about as relevant.
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The Republican Party in this state and throughout many others are attempting to push thru their moral agenda as they claim to be fixing the state budget. I for one feel that it is not up to state representatives to define my or anyone elses moral choices. I might not want to be a part of all those choices but it is not up to me how people should live their lives. That is up to that person and not for others in the community to take it upon themselves to define the choices they make. As such I for one will vote against the amendment.
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I have heard that groups that support the gay agenda are taught to use phrases like “morals” and “civil rights” and “discrimination”. At all costs avoid truth. Again, one last time, it is not about morals, do whatever you want as long as you don’t interfer with the rights of others– WE DON’T CARE! But don’t try to equate your same sex relationship with marriage, it is NOT the same. Question– what do you call two people of the same sex living together without having sexual relations? Answer– friends. Does this equate to marriage? No. Then what does the gay community want to equate with marriage? Same sex relationships (deeply committed, of course) that include sexual relations. This is not, nor ever has been, defined as marriage, and it is biologically wrong. But I still don’t care what you choose to do, just don’t call it marriage and stop trying to impose YOUR moral agenda on the 97% who are not gay.
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Why do you believe you have a right to tell people how to live their lives? If they believe their relationship can be just as good as straight people’s, why do you believe you can amend the constitution to force them to be so?
I think you entirely misunderstand freedom. Just because I give someone the freedom to do something doesn’t mean I agree with it. I give people the freedom of religion to worship as they please. It doesn’t mean I practice it. I give people the freedom of speech to say what they please. It doesn’t mean I endorse everything they say. And if I give people the freedom to organize their life the way they want to, it doesn’t mean I endorse the way they do so. People should have the freedom to organize their life without the interference of the government, and particularly without their neighbors using the government against them, and absolutely unequivocally without using the constitution to do so! The size of the group is unimportant. Even Dick Cheney says, “Freedom means freedom for everybody.” There is no minimum size of a group before their freedom is to be allowed.
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Lee Tungren, excellent points put in a succinct and sensible way — good job. You’re correct in that the truth does not change, as to God, physiology and it’s intention. But, the pro gay crowd will never accept it, because it shines light on exactly how debauched and unnatural it is. And before anyone decides to flame me as ‘homophobic’, don’t bother. I’m not afraid of homosexuals, merely saddened. Myself and others will continue to pray for you and where your souls will end up in eternity.
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So, seeing as your rationale appears to be “homosexuality is unnatural and God says so,” would you care to comment on the homosexual tendencies of various other mammalian (and avian, if memory serves) species?
I’d contend that the behavior of animals is, by definition, amoral and natural.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Jamesem~ “Myself and others will continue to pray for you and where your souls will end up in eternity”
Tis’ odd how those that proclaim the loudest are devout Christians are quickest and harshest to judge and condemn others. Mmmm…who was it that said…Judge not least ye’ be judged…?
A good Pastor friend of mine is fond of saying…whenever you draw a line in the sand and proclaim God is on your side…is the time he most definitely is on the other side…
“I like your Christ. I don’t like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”..Ghandi
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“I like your Krishna. I don’t like your Hindus. Your Hindus are so unlike your Krishna”..h westby. Who really gives a rat’s aXX what a Hindu’s opinion of Christians was?
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I do!
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How ironic in your hateful twisted comment, you actually prove his point…SMH!! BTW he was also voted the most second influential person of the last century …so think more then a few people care/cared what he thought…
“Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding. “……Mahatma Gandhi
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Sure wish our damn state legislature would worry more about balancing the budget, getting the ‘deferred’ money to the school system more than what goes on in bedrooms. some of which aren’t even in the state!
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It should be this simple: Marriage is a spiritual bond between people. There is no need for the government to sanction, encourage, or discourage it. People in our country have become too quick to involve government in everything.
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While I agree with you that government has no business in this kind of personal decision, if you try to claim you are married for taxes, inheritance, child custody, etc. without a government issues marriage license you will have your claim denied. Marriage does not require a church ceremony, but it does require a state issued marriage license.
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Yes, it does. And it shouldn’t.
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Homosexual couples pay higher taxes. They can’t put their spouses on their health plans or 401Ks, and they receive no social security benefits if their spouse dies. They’re often unable to visit their spouse in the hospital when they’re sick, because “family-only” doesn’t legally apply to them.
Most people understand that this kind of discrimination is unjust. This is why marriage equality will win in the end.
The people who claim that they care so much about the word “marriage” are simply running out of excuses. They’re starting to realize that “Gays are gross” is no longer an acceptable argument. If they cared about the word marriage, they would be working to end that discrimination by giving Civil Unions the same benefits, while still using a different word.
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What really puzzles me about this whole thing is the idea that while the ‘holier than thou’ GOP is pursuing this marriage fight, they’re also waging a war on women’s rights.
Now, just which group is LEAST likely to need or want abortion, birth control pills?
But, gays/lesbians are also the least likely to procreate, thus denying the Church of ongoing ‘tithes’.
It all comes back to the moneytrail and the Catholic Church.
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I’m a bit shocked that the Minnesota Republican Party has the time to write this legislation, with the amount of affairs its members are having with each other.
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To Pete…was ROFLMAO…how true..it’s unbelieveable to me that who sponsored this bill while doing so was having an affair with young intern and then talking about protecting the sanctity of marriage. Should get hypocrite of the year award.
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We all need to stop and realize that gay and lesbian couples want to be married for the exact same reasons all of us may want to be married. They have chosen the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with. They want to celebrate this with their families and community. They are proud of their relationships and want to make the commitment of marriage and they accept all the responsibilities that go along with this. Many, many gay and lesbian couples have families. Nothing says ‘family’ like marriage, and to deny them the ability to marry is harmful to their family. Think of what marriage means to you and why you have chosen to marry the one you love. Gay and lesbian couples have the same exact reasons.
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