In Oregon, a familiar debate over Indian nicknames
March 14, 2012 at 11:31 am in Grand Forks Herald
The emotional issue before a state education board last week was the use of an American Indian name and logo for a school’s athletic teams. Some, including American Indians, fervently support the tradition. Others, including American Indians, just as passionately oppose it. No, not here. This was in Oregon, where Scapoose High School athletes are known as the Indians and their logo is a fiercely determined American Indian in full headdress. That image may be banned, along with more than a dozen others in Oregon, within a few weeks. Continue Reading
How great is this???? Now we can import a similar debate over the exact same thing we’ve beaten to death many of thousands of times……Stay tuned…I think there’s probably something similar in Australia we can import to debate on….We just can’t get our fill of Sioux Soup…..
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Just proves that this issue is much broader than it appears at first glance.
And…anyone who has read the “studies” knows that these liberal pinheads cherry-pick the findings to fit their agenda.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Now, Now, Al Carlson aka “alwayscorrect”, it’s more like the right wing that seems to harbor ill will on peoples. Just look at the Presidential primary candidates and all that garbage they bring to the table. It’s Newt, Mitt, Ron Paul, Santorum, you all know the rest of the story. (Yawn)
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“Wisconsin, where Indian nicknames and logos were widespread, outlawed them in 2010 after years of protests and campaigns.”
I go all around WI all the time….The whole state has tribal names throughout…Just like WA and OK (And a few others but those are the ones I’m most familar with) I understand the difference between team logo and towns or other landmarks such as rivers, lakes, parks and such, But those too were most likely named in some sense of honor….Shouldn’t they too be considered wrong because maybe they took the land and just used the name? Same principle as the Sioux Soup issue right?
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If this is “Global Warming” I’m All In!
Sadly, the PC movement is reshaping our history (remember back about 10-15 years ago when teachers in Milwaukee were busted for teaching that at the time of the Pyramids, Africans could fly & Caucasions took that away from them?) and the world as we know it. No, not all of it is wrong, but there is too much of it. I do believe that it is has turned into reverse discrimination in many instances: when do the current generations get to stop paying for what transpired decades & centuries ago? When do people born with opportunities become responsible for what is here & now? Just asking!
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Your credibility on the logo issue disappears with talk like that. I’m all for keeping the logo/name but you’re for it for the wrong reasons.
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Very astute Spearman. I have said all along I am against the name & logo on moral grounds. Don exemplifies those grounds.
I don’t know how we got from my question about ‘how does forcibly removing a group of people from their land & then naming a town after them honor them,’ to some ill conceived notions on reverse discrimination & reparations; but I am very glad you saw through the smoke screen for what it is: thinly veiled racism.
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It disappears when it is no longer a factor. In the late 1800 & early 1900 prejudice against Irish & Eastern European immigrants was rampant. It was a fact of life & it’s history is well documented.
Today people would laugh you off the stage if you argued there was a systematic, institutionalized effort to deny Irish citizens their rights. Prejudice is a very real part of Irish history, but it is no longer a factor, so there are no efforts to address it. It is a non issue.
The same cannot be said for the other ethnic & racial groups under discussion. When it is no longer a factor, then we as a society can stop dealing with it.
Don: if you want true reverse discrimination, you would have to be Asian. Harvard & the other Ivy league schools as well as the UC system got in trouble for saying they have too many highly qualified Asian applicants & not enough white or other groups so it is starting to skew their admission numbers to the point they are turning away qualified Asian applicants to admit less qualified white ones.
When you stop letting in the best simply because they earned it in favor of fairness, you dilute the accomplishments of those who made it in. That is why quotas are wrong
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I have no problem with “best qualified” being accepted &/or hired. Reward scholrships based upon need & upon intelligence, just shut your eyes to color, that is what should be happening, but too many on the left see their life’s mission as to help guide minorities and the under-privilidged. Take a look what has transpired across the country: people, of all ethnicities have said that they are tired of the PC lawyers filling spots, making tests easier, etc. to allow the “correct” ethnic groups to get the training/job/etc.
Then there is your ilk, FN: “…I don’t care what the majority of Sioux Indians think, or want because I know better, I believe that the Longie/Taken Alive’s/Tribal Council leaders are telling the truth, and what does truth really have to do with this issue, as I know what’s good for them”!!! I’d love for you to sit down with John Chaske or Frank Black Cloud and learn what has really happened over the past 20+ years.
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Don: you really must stop making things up. Your fact check is atrocious.
The majority go the Sioux are not for the name. If they were we would not be having this conversation
We did a fun with numbers bit a while back that showed beyond a reasonable doubt that approximately 1/3 of the people who identified themselves as Sioux on the last census live in ND. Of that 1/3 only SL voted in favor. SR voted against -twice.
Of the 2/3 who identified themselves as Sioux & live outside of ND – every single tribal organization is against the name & mascot. Every single one. Your assertion that the majority is being held hostage by the minority is false.
Now if you want to argue that the majority of white people in ND support the name while the majority of Sioux nationwide oppose it, you would be 100% correct.
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I didn’t express myself very well because I was saying pretty much the same thing you said….All these landmarks, towns and cities that were named after the fact probably were indeed thought of as being some sort of honor to those they took these lands from. My point is that I find it a bit odd that there’s not a push to rename everything that the intruders gave native names to since there’s so much hardship over team names. I find this particularly in places like WI where you pretty much can’t turn around without seeing something named after some native tribe or leader or whatever…The whole state is stock full of native names…But somehow to have a team from any of those native named towns use a native sounding name is wrong…….That just seems like nonsense……..Damn….Here I am getting into this whole Sioux Soup through some back door approach
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Thank you for the clarification. You have a very valid point. I think Native nicknames are wrong & demeaning. That means UND, FSU, the Blackhawks, the Braves, the whole lot.
I believe the NCAA was wrong to allow IL & FL exceptions. It helped set up the situation we are in now. That said, the NCAA gave us the same deal it gave them, so saying they get to keep their name is not a valid excuse.
Why is there no uproar against towns & counties with Native names? Great question. I am not sure anyone ever studied it
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“That just seems like nonsense……..Damn….Here I am getting into this whole Sioux Soup through some back door approach”
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@tundra
What is your meaning of Sioux Soup in your comment?
Please explain.
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I refer to it as Sioux Soup because it’s this huge issues that’s been around for many years with opinion after simular opinion continuing to stir into this increasingly big pot….Like one big kettle of soup. A kettle of soup that’s been on the stove for so long that the ingrediants at the bottom have burnt into the kettle and have basically turned the whole soup into something enedible by now…..So many of us just want to see the soup taken off the burner once and for all…One way or other. I once had passionate feelings on one side of the issue, but I decided a long time ago the issue is done and all that’s going on now is just prolonging the inevitable. I know that wont sit well with those who feel that it’s still a good fight worth fighting, but it’s over, and to continue would seem to only damage the very teams they feel so passionate about…..To quote the Toa te Chin…”The person who knows enough is enough….will always have enough” Having really good UND teams….Is enough….
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Well said Tundra. Well said.
I get really tired of it also, and realize I am enabling the bad behavior by participating. Then I remind myself that as long as the other side takes the field, we have to as well.
Boards like this are the new media everyone is always talking about. They are a large reason the Big O got elected. This is what “grass-roots politicing” means in the 21 century. 20 years ago you had meetings in people’s houses and phone trees. Today you blog and text.
This is guerilla warfare. Uncle Al will not be held accountable by traditional means, but with enough subversion, even his own district will grow tired of his antics and boot him. As a case in point I refer you to the law maker who wrote SB 1070, the illegal imigration bill that had everyone up in arms. Once the bill passed he started believing his own press releases. He believes the constitution was wrong (14 Amendment) and set out to undermine it. Realizing the potential damage, his own side recalled and replaced him.
It is a lesson Uncle Al needs to learn. This issue goes way beyond the nickname. If you look at Uncle Al’s actions since taking power you see a pattern of partisanship that ND has never seen before. You also see someone who believes he is invincible.
I think it is time to prove him wrong.
Recall Uncle Al: It Does a Body Good
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Quite possibly, why the “Fighting Sioux” nickname just does not want to go away in North Dakota? To control other peoples or groups by North Dakota’s majority race, is not far off from their not too distant past…………If the shoe fits…..
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KU KLUX KLAN IN NORTH DAKOTA RECORDS
COLLECTION: OGL#598
DATES: 1916-1981
SIZE: .25 linear feet
INTRODUCTION
ACQUISITION: There have been several donations to the Ku Klux Klan in North Dakota Records:
Transferred from the North Dakota Pamphlet File in 1981: (Acc. #81-688 and #81-731)
Donation by Richard Beringer in 1995: (Acc.# 95-2015)
Donation by Jerry Newborg in 1998: (Acc.# 2005-2763)
ACCESS: Open for inspection under the rules and regulations of the Department of Special Collections.
HISTORICAL SKETCH
The first Imperial Wizard, Emperor of the Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was Nathan Bedford Forrest, a former Confederate general. Forrest, along with other Confederate Veterans, formed the Ku Klux Klan on December 15, 1865, at Pulaske, Tennessee, in order to prevent African-Americans from utilizing their rights as American citizens. In 1869, due to lack of control, Forrest disbanded the Klan but several other organizations continued on.
The release of D.W. Griffith’s 1915 film, The Birth of a Nation, ignited new interest in the organization. That same year, William J. Simmons and Samuel Green reformed the Ku Klux Klan in Stone Mountain, Georgia. By the beginning of the 1920s, Klan membership had grown to nearly 5 million members.
Interest soon spread to North Dakota, where Klan members staged rallies in Williston and Fargo. The largest Klan following in the state, however, was in the Grand Forks area. The Grand Forks Klan was known as the Ansax Club, whose members were anti-Catholics, Jews, and immigrants and strongly favored the public school system.
Unlike Klan membership in the south, the Ansax Club members consisted mainly of men from the business community. Officials within the organization included: 7 store owners, 3 lawyers, 3 bank officials, 1 doctor, 1 architect, and 1 clergyman. At their highest point of membership the Ansax Club had over 500 members.
Concerned about the growth of the Klan in North Dakota, the state legislature passed a law on January 10, 1923, banning all citizens over the age of 15 from wearing a mask or any other head covering in front of a public building, in order to conceal their identity. Thirteen days later, the Exalted Cyclops of the Ansax Club, Reverend Frederick Halsey Ambrose testified in front of state senators denouncing the new law.
Later that fall, Ambrose spoke in front of a large group of Klan members 21 miles east of Grand Forks. Ambrose spoke about his contempt for immigrants who he saw as pushing American citizens out of their homes. Ambrose also mentioned the need of its members to support the Klan and support the public school system, which he saw as the foundation and nurturing of American citizenship. He also stressed that each member should reach their goals by peace, not through violence.
Around the same time as the meeting, the Grand Forks Klan applied to the North Dakota Secretary of State office for incorporation as a fraternal society. Along with the application was a charter granted by the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, but due to insufficient funds the application did not go through and the Klan was never officially chartered.
In a 1924 school board election, two Klan supported candidates, Leslie Stinson and E.A. Arhart, won election over two candidates Ambrose deemed to be “unamericanized.” The Ansax club was at its most influential during this time but by the end of the 1920s membership began to decline. With the indictment of Indiana’s governor and mayor, both Klan supporters, officials began cracking down on Klan organizations throughout the Midwest. By the end of 1928, Klan activity had essentially ceased in Grand Forks.
Source: “The Ku Klux in Grand Forks, North Dakota” by William L. Harwood, South Dakota History. Fall 1971.
SCOPE AND CONTENT NOTE
The Ku Klux Klan in North Dakota Records consists of newspaper articles, Klan publications, and historical journal articles regarding Klan activity in North Dakota, primarily in Grand Forks during the 1920s. Also included is a photocopy of the application and charter for the Grand Forks Klan #1, for incorporation as a fraternal society. The charter was issued by The Imperial Wizard, Emperor of the Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan on June 4, 1922, and officially recognized the Grand Forks Klan to perform all acts under Klan law. The charter was accepted by the Grand Forks Klan, also known as the Ansax Club, on September 21, 1923, but was never officially chartered due to insufficient funds. Some of these records were originally part of the North Dakota Pamphlet File.
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“The Grand Forks Klan was known as the Ansax Club, whose members were anti-Catholics, Jews, and immigrants and strongly favored the public school system.”
I would venture a guess that many Native Americans could be accused of being “anti-immigrant”….and for good reason…look at what the “immigrants” did to them. It was called Manifest Destiny.
Your attempt to portray anyone who disagrees with you as a “racist” is laughable….but sadly, a typical liberal smear tactic…and ultimately…
pathetic.
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@ND House Majority Leader Al Carlson and “alwayscorrect”:
Take off your blinders and read the comments and look at what was/is happening at the University of North Dakota. Students experienced racism directed at them on and off campus. Nickname needs to be retired.
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“Those who might consider attending UND who are of color, should be aware of the fact that it is not safe. There is no place to report Hate crimes in the State of North Dakota as it is the only State in America with no Human Rights Commission. There are no real statistics.
In my four years attending UND I heard of rocks and bottles thrown at Black and Indian students. Cars speed up to hit you when you cross the street. People jeer, yell, and whoop out of passing car windows. Mary Ahmed and her eight year old son were attacked outside of an elementary school (Lewis and Clark) by a group of White sixth graders in Athletic Jackets and the Local Newspaper refused to report it. It is commonplace to hear of obscene racist threatening letters, there was a painting of a Black man being lynched by the Ku Klux Klan in a dormitory tunnel, and there have been assaults. Several in town businesses refuse to accept checks from Indians. Many Indians arrive at UND with their household in a horse trailer because U-Haul in Southern North Dakota has a blanket policy-they do not rent to Indians. I attended a child’s birthday party at the Grand Forks Happy Joes, and the manager went into the party room and removed the VCR from the TV set, back where we were and put it in front behind the counter. The attendees were all of color and most had graduate degrees. Blockbusters on Washington took a Hawaiian friend of mine away by the police in handcuffs in front of her children. The arrest form cited her as a disruptive number 4. Naturally when you looked at the 4 on the bottom of the paper it corresponded with Indian. Mayor Owens got that one dropped.
The worse thing I have encountered at UND is the ‘sneer’. As you pass local White people and they see you are of color, first they wrinkle their noses as if they smell something bad, then they add a smile. It comes off like an evil sneer. It is interesting, though sad to watch the local people in action. They are pretty pleasant to each other. Smile smile smile, sneer. You really feel like an outsider at UND.”
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@Rep. Al Carlson or aka “alwayscorrect”:
Al Carlson, you had your chance at persuading the NCAA, with you and the Governor’s North Dakota delegation that appeared before the NCAA in August 2011, to make North Dakota’s case for retaining the “Fighting Sioux” nickname and logo. Al, I’m sure you tried your best to make your points about how North Dakotans like the nickname and how you truly felt about the NCAA and its policies. In the end, your efforts did not prevail.
As was reported from that meeting, the NCAA stood firm in its commitment to the 2007 Settlement Agreement in which all parties agreed to its terms, that UND was to retire the nickname. Al, you need to cut your losses and move on, life is too short to sweat the small stuff.
I am an Independent, Conservative, and you are wrong, Al, with painting all people that differ from your viewpoints as left wing, liberals. You could quite possibly be wrong on the nickname issue and you need to learn to move on with helping UND maintain its status as a good scholarly, athletically inspired, institution of higher learning.
“Home of the brave”.
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Well said.
Recall Uncle Al: It Doesva Body Good
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[EDITOR'S NOTE: SEE ALSO UND UNDER FEDERAL INVESTIGATION FOR RACISM]
Lillian Elsinga ‘s Amanuensis, the Boeser Zwerg (Nasty Dwarf) Jerry Bulisco Who Is Three Feet Tall, Confiscates Alleged Booty
Elsinga’s African Empire
Lillian Elsinga has fired many African American Directors of the Era Bell Thompson Multicultural Center, one after another, charging that they have been embezzling funds. Each time she fires someone she confiscates their salary and never accounts for it. It’s amazing how this Master of Arts in German is able to discern immediately corruption in PhD’s especially when their skin color is not White. Then ROTC Corporal Bulisco takes over their jobs until another victim shows up. (Sounds a bit like Germany gobbling up the prime parts of central Europe and leaving the Italians Albania.) Of course, as always, UND’s students suffer while a couple of simple-minded petty tyrants afraid of intermixing ideas with individuals outside of North Dakota’s “good ole boy network” cling to the past.
Those who might consider attending UND who are of color, should be aware of the fact that it is not safe. There is no place to report Hate crimes in the State of North Dakota as it is the only State in America with no Human Rights Commission. There are no real statistics.
In my four years attending UND I heard of rocks and bottles thrown at Black and Indian students. Cars speed up to hit you when you cross the street. People jeer, yell, and whoop out of passing car windows. Mary Ahmed and her eight year old son were attacked outside of an elementary school (Lewis and Clark) by a group of White sixth graders in Athletic Jackets and the Local Newspaper refused to report it. It is commonplace to hear of obscene racist threatening letters, there was a painting of a Black man being lynched by the Ku Klux Klan in a dormitory tunnel, and there have been assaults. Several in town businesses refuse to accept checks from Indians. Many Indians arrive at UND with their household in a horse trailer because U-Haul in Southern North Dakota has a blanket policy-they do not rent to Indians. I attended a child’s birthday party at the Grand Forks Happy Joes, and the manager went into the party room and removed the VCR from the TV set, back where we were and put it in front behind the counter. The attendees were all of color and most had graduate degrees. Blockbusters on Washington took a Hawaiian friend of mine away by the police in handcuffs in front of her children. The arrest form cited her as a disruptive number 4. Naturally when you looked at the 4 on the bottom of the paper it corresponded with Indian. Mayor Owens got that one dropped.
The worse thing I have encountered at UND is the ‘sneer’. As you pass local White people and they see you are of color, first they wrinkle their noses as if they smell something bad, then they add a smile. It comes off like an evil sneer. It is interesting, though sad to watch the local people in action. They are pretty pleasant to each other. Smile smile smile, sneer. You really feel like an outsider at UND.
Lillian Elsinga’s response to these horrors is “there appears to be an increase in hate crimes on universities everywhere” and that she monitors Internet exchanges that deal with campus trends, and those exchanges indicate that many campuses have seen an increase in Hate crimes.
UND does not appear to address these issues, but accepts them as the Norm. Meanwhile, Elsinga continues to fire each multicultural director, one after another.
Here is how it appeared in the papers folks. . .
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STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND
The University of North Dakota’s administrators repeatedly demonstrate hostility to anyone they perceive as different then themselves. Not only do they deliberately isolate the black students, UND administrators label anyone the perceive as different then themselves as ‘crazy’ or ‘unsuitable’, lie about the individual and do everything they can to stop that person from doing their job. Ultimately, they destroy the person’s career and often their financial integrity.
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STUDENTS AND UNIVERSITY NEED TO DO MORE TO PROMOTE DIVERSITY, BLACK STUDENTS SAY
UNIVERSITY’S COMMITMENT TO DIVERSITY, TREATMENT OF NON-WHITES STILL QUESTIONABLE
Isolation can be a common feeling for students coming to a college in an unfamiliar place. It can be particularly difficult for black students who come to a university that is as white as the snow that covers UND’s campus for most of the school year.
UND has 96 students who identify themselves as black, according to enrollment analysis. The problem is, says Multicultural Student Services Director M.C. Diop, those 96 students do not know each other.
Editor’s note: UND administrators had difficulties with the ethnicity of the center’s numerous past directors. This led to BOMB THREATS. The University of North Dakota closed the Black Cultural Center leaving its Black student population with no UND sanctioned place to gather. UND has since reopened the Center under the name ‘Multicultural’, but it is still the ‘Black Student’ Center. I believe that the low attendance is due to a pervasive lack of University support. Black Cultural events are not posted on the UND web pages, flyers are often delivered late after events have already occurred and/or thrown out in the snow when delivered, and UND departments toss event flyers instead of posting them on bulletin boards.
References: Published on 02/16/98, AGWEEK And Grand Forks Herald
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“The University of North Dakota closed the Black Cultural Center leaving its Black student population with no UND sanctioned place to gather.”
What is a “sanctioned” place to gather?
Typical liberal racism…seperate everyone into groups of victims…then pretend like you care (like the NCAA) …and then hope nobody points out your hypocrisy…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I have missed you Always. You crack me up. Your white is right diatribes crack me up. I never drink soda when I read your posts because it hurts too much when I blow it out my nose laughing.
Keep up the good fight Always, God will reward you. I am sure of it.
I can’t wait for the Supreme Court decision. Since we already know what you are going to say, I have some responses already saved to a Word document.
Recall Uncle Al: It Does a Body Good
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uvikingslost…….You did notice at the top were it stated “Comments” right? I think you minifestos go a bit beyond “Commets”
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Attn: tundra……
Thank you for your comments. I attach some of the already written segments to add additional input from others to the topic talked about.
Thanks again, for your perspective.
UVikingsLost
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You might want to check your history book one more time.
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Why are these stories not confined to the sports page where people who really care will still read them and those of us who don’t give a hoot will get to read news..oh the horror of it–herald reporters actually having to report the actual news.
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Dear Abby is located on page 5. I think the topic at hand in that article was the “It’s all about me” syndrome.
Funny thing about your comment is that the contents of the article has NOTHING to do with sports.
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The article in question pertains to sports in that it would have never been written if the team at UND was not named Sioux. How is putting it in the sports section “all about me”-it will still be written and printed but would appear in a different section. You don’t need to have evolved much past a brainstem to handle turning pages–try it–the sense of pride you feel in your accomplishment may give your life a new meaning beyond that of caring what a team calls itself.
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GF is no different than 1000s of towns across the country. Remember Archie Bunker lives in Queens, NYC. If anything GF has history that is unique in civil rights. EG a GF native Judge Ronals Davies was appointed by Pres. Eisenhower to give the order to integrate Little Rock, Ark. schools in 1957. That is why the GF Federal Build. is named after him. Louis Armstrong was in GF for a concert that same night in 1957 when he gave a GFH reporter a story that went AP viral. In it he chastised Little Rock officials for their racist attitudes. He usually didn’t speak about issues but that night in GF after his concert he took the opportunity to make a diff. on the national scene right from GF. You can’t isolated individual experiences with racism as an accurate picture of what a city is like. That does make for good sociological insight.
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Above should read “doesn’t make for good sociological insight”.
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