by Grand Forks Herald
February 11, 2012 at 7:40 pm in Grand Forks Herald
The only good resolution of the issue is to defeat the referral. That would deflate supporters of the nickname and derail the drive for a constitutional amendment. Continue Reading
Tags: 2012 elections, Editorials, Fighting Sioux nickname, Higher Education, Opinion, UND, updates 43 Comments »
In this case you are wrong.
I agree this issue has generated an excessive amount of passion on both sides, and that no matter the outcome, a large portion of the population is going to be left unhappy. Be that as it may, that is not an excuse to disregard the constitution.
ND state constitution is clear: the SBHE is in charge of the name. To have allowed the nickname bill to go unchallenged was a mistake that the SBHE must be held accountable for. To compound that mistake by allowing a vote on what is a patently unconstitutional piece of legislation is completely inappropriate.
In your editorial you act as if you are afraid of a constitutional amendment. You give the impression that if we do not let the proliteriate vote on this issue there is a chance their anger will be such that they will rise up and pass a constitutional amendment mandating the name. THAT IS THE PROLITERIATE’s perogative.
You do not “placate”people by offering them a vote on a piece of legislation that is unenforceable for fear they may pass another completely legal piece of legislation you find more objectionable.
I disagree with and strongly rebuke your attempts to shortcircuit the process and deny people’s rights. Even if the repeal of the repeal fails, that does not proclude the supporters of the nickname and logo from pressing ahead with their attempts to change the constitution. In fact, their lawyer has said that is what will happen, regardless of the outcome of this farce.
Mike, you are wrong, you know better, and I am disappointed in you. I expect better.
Hot debate. What do you think? 33 22
That’s prolitariat, not proliteriate. In fact this is not an issue limited to the concerns of prolitariat, defined as the lower classes made up of unskilled workers, but of a cross section of the electorate from rich to poor. Your comments say more about your pejorative views of the electorate than anything else.
Hot debate. What do you think? 12 18
“That’s prolitariat, not proliteriate.”
Don’t forget, FN took English Comp at UND.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 20 4
Did it ever cross your mind I consider myself part of the prolitariat (I can’t spell potato either – does that make me qualified to be a Republican Vice President)?
I am certainly poor enough. As for disdainful towards the lower class, I am thinking your colors are showing more than mine.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
I guess we have disregarded the US constitution by amending it to rid it of its racist components. Since race is an obsolete concept we need to make Sioux a part of the ND constitution to emphasize that ND is ahead of the curve when it comes to race.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 8 24
On another thread (what, we are up to 10 now) we were discussing how this IS a race issue. I am far from arguing to remove race from the equation. I am arguing it is racism that is behind the equation; racism fueled by cash.
This is definitely a race issue. Some believe the cartoon is racist and derogatory, and some do not. It is also about money (everyone agrees on that point). First it was Ralph’s money and now it is about the NCAA and their money.
Be that as it may, it has always been about race.
Hot debate. What do you think? 14 16
So you believe race is a legitimate concept?
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Spearman: Race is like gender; it is almost entirely socially constructed, yet it influences almost everything. It is so ingrained that its influences are almost unconscious. It is a big part of culture. There is no escaping it.
You are confused thinking that just because something is largely socially constructed it is not real, or powerful in its influence. We decide what race is. It is almost purely nurture not nature (99% of everyone’s DNA is the same so with the exception of certain diseases that break down along racial lines, race is nurture; not nature) , but that is not to say it is not a powerful influence on society and people’s actions.
With the exception of religion, can you give me one single subject that has influenced the development of the US more than race? Before you answer, think about it.
Lets start with the constitution almost never happened because of race (there were no white slaves in the colonies. White indentured servants, but no slaves)
The Civil War may have started over union but it ended on a racial note. Remember Abe Lincoln was just as racist as anyone else. He did not believe African Americans were equal to whites, he doubted the two races would ever be able to live side by side, and he wanted to ship them back to Africa. That said, he did view them as people and did not believe they should be bought or sold.
After the Civil War we did not know what to do with all of these armed African Americans. They scared the hades out of white america so they sent them out west to kill Native Americans. Read Sherman’s views on American Indians and follow that up with several good papers on the Indian School Movement and then look me in the eye and tell me the reservation system was not instituted as a form of genocide. You will not be able to support your argument. It is in the congressional record.
After the Civil War you have reconstruction, the KKK, and Jim Crow. That lasted until our parents lifetime.
Before Vietnam was race. The civil rights movement and protests began a decade before the Vietnam era protests and continued straight through. Think of the horror when Jimmy Hendricks did the National Anthem at Woodstock. We think it is the coolest thing since sliced bread. Our grandparents did not concur.
You can go down through the Watts riots and Rodney King and crack cocaine and gangs etc etc etc
Race is an unavoidable fact of human society. It may be socially constructed but that does not mean it is not real.
Like or Dislike: 9 7
Being wrong has never dissauded Mike Jacobs from expressing his opinion.
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In 50 yrs. when the PCers finally understand the concept of race is obsolete they will want to reverse the NCAA decision against native logos because they finally understand we are all one species without race being a legitimate way to talk about our differences. Our differences are only based on latitude as Columbus never understood while on his merry way looking for sources of slaves.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 15 26
In 50 years there will likely be no NCAA. There are already rumblings of the big time football schools leaving and forming their own organization, eliminating the NCAA as middleman and getting all the TV cash for themselves. Basketball would not be far behind, nor hockey. What would be left are the so-called non-revenue sports (swimming, tennis, lacrosse, soccer, and the like).
Hot debate. What do you think? 23 10
Fifty years is too long, I wish the NCAA would be dissolved tomorrow. They continue to exploit athletes while they compensate themselves with fat paychecks.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 29 7
I didn’t say it would take place in 50 years…maybe 10 or less.
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That’s been tried before. Ever hear of the College Football Association? Didn’t work so well because the schools couldn’t do the work on their own and realized they needed an oversight organization.
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flyingnurse: I had thought the SBHE should have challenged the Carlson law as soon as it passed, especially when the attorney general had expressed concern about its constitutionality
before it went to committee. If they would have imagined this, I’m sure they would have done so. I still think that’s an option of the SBHE, unless that process goes past June. If I’m the attorney general, I’ve already put my house in order and could issue a ruling in two weeks. Like most North Dakotans, Mike has always given a lot of weight to the power of the people’s vote. It’s noble, I guess. But in a case like this, if the SBHE’s is found to have “patently constitutional” authority, as you say, a vote of the people is a complete waste of time. Mike feels strongly about his opinion, but he can’t pick and choose which laws to follow. If the SBHE action could end this more quickly, legally, the voter’s rights remain intact.
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Exactly Alvin. As I tried to make clear: the SBHE has much to answer for. They abrogated their constitutional authority and for that they must be held accountable. Always Correct et. al., want to do away with them because they are against his political opinion. I want to clean house because they are not doing their job.
The institution is the right form of governance. The people occupying the spots need to be replaced by people who take their responsibilities seriously. Lets look at the last two years: Chapman, DSU (one fired, one assisted to resign, one dead), and the nickname debacle.
This is not a group deserving of a second chance. If the governor re-ups any of them, then the governor must be held accountable. Most are Hoven appointees and he wants to be President (POTUS). That is a little scary. I would have voted for him, now I am not too sure.
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I can’t jump on that bandwagon, but sticking to this specific subject, the SBHE chose to follow the law, against what you and I thought they should have done. They must have honestly felt that was the quickest and best option for UND. I’ve been on boards and more than once wished we could have judged with hindsight. No one could have written this complicated story ahead of time. Other than Sen. Carlson and the ND Legislature, I’m not pointing fingers. People think this is a nickname issue. To me, it’s legal, constitutional and now it’s survival. Why are the few remaining nuckleheads still talking about the tribes, Florida State or the Notre Dame Irish? Put yourself in the athletic director’s shoes for one day. Damage has already been done and we are in survival mode. You’d have to be mad not to comprehend the recent concerns recently spelled out for us by UND. Ignorance, by itself, does not explain people like alwayscorrect.
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that’s knucle. oops
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knuckle. I’m going for a walk.
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Another UND grad?
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Settlement Agreement and Mutual Release
Filed: October 26, 2007
State of North Dakota In District Court
County of Grand Forks Northeast Central Judicial District
State of North Dakota, by and
through the North Dakota
State Board of Higher Education,
and the University of North Dakota,
National Collegiate Athletic Association
No matter how many times the general public in the state North Dakota votes on the “Fighting Sioux” mascot and logo retention for the University of North Dakota, it will not make their votes matter in the situation at hand because this has more to do with Tribal, Sovereign affiliation than the laws of North Dakota.
The Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe voted YES to retain the “Fighting Sioux” nickname and logo for the University of North Dakota, and the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe voted NO to retain the “Fighting Sioux” nickname and logo for the University of North Dakota.
The October 26, 2007 SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT and MUTUAL RELEASE, filed in District Court, Northeast Central Judicial District, County of Grand Forks, in the State of North Dakota, is the legal document by which the Plaintiffs: State of North Dakota, by and through the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education, and the University of North Dakota; and the Defendant: National Collegiate Athletic Association; agreed to the terms of the SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT and MUTUAL RELEASE. This is the controlling, legal document for all parties under the state of North Dakota laws.
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Correct Viking. The only problem for the other side is that it is also expired. We have no agreement with the NCAA that will allow ND to keep the name. If the other side wants one, they have to start from scratch and I don’t think the NCAA is willing to waste a whole lot of time on us. They are over it, and us.
I believe the repeal of the repeal is a joke and makes a mockery of the constitution. I believe the battle will be over the Constitutional Amendment. Everyone needs to quit playing games and get on with the showdown. It is the only thing that will put this issue to rest.
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The NCAA is a “private public-sector” org. not a “private-sector private” org. The difference gives the public taxpayer more rights in NCAA operations.
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Whatever Spearman. Keep up the good fight.
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Let’s vote! The outcome will no t be desired by the chicken little camp. UND will keep the nickname and we will live with the sanctions. Enough said.
Let the SBHE plea their case to the Supreme Court of North Dakota, they won’t win. The vote already will be 4 -1 (guess which ones are alumni?).
We won’t be the first school to accept the restrictions. Alcorn State (Braves) continues to schedule their games without further hinderance from the NCAA and they didn’t even appeal being sanctioned. They play Division I (SWAC, FCS).
Let’s support the Spirit Lake Tribe (commonly refered to as “they” in these posts) with their efforts to have their vote recognized, repeal the repeal law, amend the constitution, and be awarded damages by the NCAA in their lawsuit.
Hot debate. What do you think? 15 15
I continue to be astounded that people would assert that Alcorn State is an appropriate role model for UND. They play in a very weak conference and were 2-8 in football and are currently 7-17 in men’s basketball. It probably could go without saying that they do not have, and likely never will have, a hockey team. Academically, they serve an important mission in their state and do it well, but unlike UND, they are not aspiring to be a top-tier university with a national and international reputation for academic excellence.
Like or Dislike: 14 5
The Supreme Court already rule in 2010 that the SBHE controls the name. That is established precedent. They are going to reverse themselves? I think not.
Remember your side’s lawyer said this law is unconstitutional, he supported the petition as a way to get the troops warmed up for the real show: the constitutional amendment. It is the only way you will get the cartoon and advertising gimmick to stay.
Good luck. I will be on the other side, but I always enjoy a good political tussle.
Like or Dislike: 7 6
The vast majority of NoDakians will vote to keep the Fighting Sioux alive. I would be willing to bet the family farm on that. Most do not understand the NCAA/UND settlement. For most voters the issue will be whether or not the Sioux logo/name is offensive. This issue will plague UND for years to come. We can only hope in the end UND comes out smelling like a rose, rather than a #2.
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I don’t hit these links, cause sometimes they have viruses…
no offense, if you have something to say…say it.
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“For most voters the issue will be whether or not the Sioux logo/name is offensive.”
Well, let us hope so…that is what it is about.
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And for some reason if ND residents don’t favor the Sioux name/logo, will you finally let this issue go?
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Second rate team in a first rate (for the time being) house. It may come out smelling, but it will not be like roses.
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I hope that someday we (MN) get a chance to play UND again in some sport someday somewhere somehow down the road. If not I will think about you guys when we are playing Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Nebraska….
*Last man out of the Betty, the Ralph, the Alerus, or the Hyslop…please shut the lights off and lock the doors.
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UND does not discriminate who their opponents are. Given the chance UND will knock off any one of those teams you suggest in advancing to or playing at the Frozen Four. BTW… Iowa is still DII, Indiana at this time has no plans for big ten hockey, and Illinois….????….????
I hope the Big Ten adds spectators to college hockey, but the big ten might be the Big six for a very long time. Who knows the breakup of the most successful division of college hockey the “WCHA” may have consequences for all current members….hopefully not.
” Given the chance UND will knock off any one of those teams you suggest in advancing to or playing at the Frozen Four.”
And if they manage to get there they will once again get beaten like they have been every year under Hakstol.
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You have hockey inbedded in your brain….do some research as well before you make your comments….you look foolish when you don’t.
Good luck with that nickname/logo issue. While UND is remaining stagnant and wasting time other schools are advancing to the next level.
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TJ, you were absolutely correct, I was ONLY referring to hockey. My point was, in post season play you cannot pick and choose who you play.
“While UND is remaining stagnant and wasting time other schools are advancing to the next level.” One, UND officials have lost control of the Sioux logo/name debacle…thanks to Al….. and two, what is the next level?
Gene, making it to the Frozen Four is an accomplishment in itself.
The People have clearly demonstrated that a vote of this magnitude is more than they can handle. Do what is right for the University, not the individual with an opinion.
Like or Dislike: 12 4
How I Sit: talkin’ trash, bein’ a fan, supportin’ the team. very helpful.
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