by Grand Forks Herald
January 21, 2012 at 11:00 am in Grand Forks Herald
I need to weigh in on the nickname issue. No, not that nickname issue. Continue Reading
Tags: cooperstown, COUGAR, draper, griggs county central school, Nickname, Ryan Bakken, updates, utah 54 Comments »
The last sentance is right on, Ryan!
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One of my favorite nicknames was the Amsterdam Fighting Merkins. but too many people found the word “fighting” offensive, so sadly, the name was razed.
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What about the Bison? A Bison’s head is huge because it can’t pass gas. Naming a team after a poor challenged animal. Tsk, tsk.
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Hey Lowrent! How’s it hanging in Crookston. I see Brewster doesn’t show up too often anymore on the CDTs. His feelings are too soft to come play on here.
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I have spent the last several years arguing that the Sioux nickname and logo have to go. When I read this story I could not believe it. Taking things to their idiot extreme demeans and damages those who have legitimate claims against a wrong.
Anything can have a double entendre. Just ask any 13 year old boy.
This case is ridiculous because it cheapens the entire nickname/logo discussion.
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Chargers? That name offends those people that are having a tough time getting out of credit card debt. Every time they hear “Let’s Go Chargers!”, it’s going to remind them of their financial situation. The board should really look into changing the name again.
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lets just do a nation wide ban on nicknames and team colors all together, then the PC crew can’t complain about anything. better yet, lets ban anything that can hurt anyone. that means no farmer grown food, no cars, no electricity, and so-forth and so-on.But we know thats not going to happen. So its high time that the PC crew just got told to piss off.
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You are trying to throw the baby out with the bath water. Anything taken to the ridiculous extreme demeans the argument.
Take sexual harassment – a real problem with no place in our society. Unfortunately, everytime someone claims harassment when there was none (claim made for personal gain) the experience of those who were offered a choice between the casting couch & unemployment is denigrated.
You don’t get rid of harassment protections because a few abuse them. Same thing here.
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So the nickname and logo are harassment? Yeesh… I think political correctness taken to the ridiculous extreme demeans the argument. And this argument about the nickname and logo are one of these instances.. so does that make me right? Lets be open here, there’s nothing tangible or measurable about the “hostility” that the NCAA is implying…its all about feelings. And because of this lack of anything based on reality, I am against the dismissal of the nickname and logo.
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Nice piece Mr. B. My all time favorite. Butte High School, Home of the Pirates…… The Butte Pirates.
Im not making that up. Google it if you don’t believe me.
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fn you know on something outlandish like i said above is in jest, but the PC Bull**** has just gone too far. they are pushing the human race to be a neutered shell of itself just so they can have some power. better yet, this man said it best:
George Carlin on political correctness and censorship
“Political correctness is America’s newest form of intolerance, and it’s especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people’s language with strict codes and rigid rules. I’m not sure that’s the way to fight discrimination. I’m not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.” —George Carlin
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fn you know on something outlandish like i said above is in jest, but the PC Bull has just gone too far. they are pushing the human race to be a neutered shell of itself just so they can have some power. better yet, this man said it best:
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Could not agree more scoot. You chose one of my favorite quotes. I often get flamed for saying Sharia Law be it Muslim or Christian is still Sharia. George is where I got the idea.
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So…I guess you feel strongly about it both ways?
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Go away Always. Trying to have a reasoned conversation. Your saying things for effect has lost its appeal. Go back to the other threads
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Well, which is it?
You are all for political correctness in the case of the Sioux…yet you claim to be a fan of Carlson’s quote.
That quote belittles and derides PC…in case you didn’t notice.
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Life is not either or Always. It is shades of gray. Is not using the “N” word politically correct or is it simply the right thing to do? Can it be both? Does it have to be one or the other?
If getting rid of an offensive cartoon is politically correct, then that is a nice byproduct; it is not the main motivation. Since I know we have been through this before, will you go home now? Your mother is calling you …
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i guess this all boils down to if anyone is not happy then nobody can be happy
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I once worked for a boss Scoot who honestly believed that offending anyone was inappropriate. Needless to say they were not very effective.
Intentionally abusing someone simply because of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sexual orientation or any of the other dirty dozen is wrong and should be treated as such. Disagreeing with someone over a political stance is perfectly acceptable as long as the argument is carried out with decorum and stays within bounds.
People will always be offended. It is impossible not to be. As a conservative, Bible believing Christian Jerry Falwell offended me to no end. That does not mean I tried to pass a law prohibiting him from expressing his point of view, it just means I made sure and gave my money to people who opposed him.
Political correctness run amok is when people cannot decide for themselves what is a legitimate human/civil right and what is a political belief or difference of opinion. Like I said above: racism in any form is wrong and needs to be dealt with as such. People who wear their sheets rather than sleep on them agree with me wholeheartedly … we just have different definitions of what constitutes racism.
My family has a very long military tradition. It chaps my hide to know that my son put his life on the line so someone can wear a sheet and and spout hate, but this is America and that is how things work. You do not try to shut them down, you simply drown them out and beat them at the ballot box.
As an aside: I have a very hard time with hate laws. If you bash in my skull because I am gay, or African American, or have blue eyes, how is that different than bashing in my skull because I am at the wrong place at the wrong time. The behavior is illegal in either case. I am very ambivalent about these special riders.
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well my thoughts on PC art alot like Carlin’s. The idea of political correctness is control. If they can control your language thoughts and actions they have all the power. And that is what PC is, a form of mind control. the world ever since 1900 on has become softer and softer. Language and grammar has changed and altered the way people have thought.
And if you compare this generation to one that existed 40 or 50 years ago, you would notice that the current generation is a castrated, no backbone having shell compared to the one in the past. The softening of language has caused alot of this. Carlin showed this best when he started with the words “shell shock” which sounds pretty harsh and went thru its many transformations to its current form: “post traumatic stress disorder” that now has more of a velvet touch.
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What you are referring to is ” Postmodernism.” Basically a school of thought that says language does more than describe reality, it frames it. There is no reality without language. It’s major tenet is that there is no objective reality; everything is subjective. George is a big fan of postmodernism. The stuff made my eyes bleed when we studied it.
As a Bible thumper I disagree with much of it, but there is no denying its influence. If you find yourself in a fit of self loathing but are too weak to kill yourself, read Fucquot; he is the father of post modernist thought. To say he is Painful is a gross understatement. Just seeing his name gives me hives.
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Sorry that is the incorrect spelling for Misseur Foucault.
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Those poor guys on chain gangs in AZ have to endure being mocked by a football team…Oh the humanity……Actually that sounds damn fun and I’d like to see that…….
You know the history of how Yuma got its name? Well back in the old west there was an acting sherrif called Big Bob in this little town they hadn’t figured a name for. One day Bad Bart came to town and Big Bob told him to hit the road because he wouldn’t make it out alive if he tried to rob anyone. So Bad Bart challenged Big Bob to a showdown. The code of the west being what it was Big Bob had to accept, and since Bad Bart made the challenge he insisted they did it old school starting back to back and count off five paces. They started off and at the third pace Bad Bart turned around and started walking towards Big Bob. When Big Bob heard “Five” he turned around to Bad Bart’s gun barrel a couple feet away and said. “You mo…….” before getting shot. The town decided to honor Big Bob by using Big Bob’s last words as the town’s name…..The end…..
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I have no clue about the veracity of your statements, but having flown out of Yuma more than once, I love it. If you ever have a chance to visit there: don’t. The only legitimate reason to go to Yuma is: 1. stop for gas on the way to San Diego 2. you are a Marine and they made you go there.
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Good one TB. Two pioneers were measuring a certain part of their anatomy. That’s how Fargo and Moorhead got their names.
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Let’s come up with the name UND Ranger Rifles. They shoot down all expectations. Or the UND Prairie Fires. Or the UND size 12 upside your heads (S12UYH). Put that on their jerseys
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lets just honor the north dakota board of education for how they stood up to the ncaa and call them the UND Jellyfish. (for the boards lack of backbone)
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Has anyone ever wondered why North Dakota didn’t follow in Florida’s footsteps and paid for use of the Sioux name? from what i understand, Fla pays 5 to 10 million to the Seminole tribes to use their name. My guess is that the nickname controversy would never have happened. there shouldn’t be any problem coming up with the cash considering all the money being generated from the oil patch.
More than you and I have wondered the same thing. I am a cynical old fart who takes a very negative view of these entire proceedings. My opinion is they never reached a financial settlement with the tribes because they didn’t think they had to. “The name honors THEM, and there are plenty of special programs for THEM at UND, why should I have to spend any more of my hard earned cash on THEM than I already do?”
Proof of this attitude of us vs them can be seen in the earlier comment about how they get free tuition; an urban legend that won’t go away because it is useful in justifying our opinions & attitudes.
FL was simply being practical. In ND we believe the rules that the rest of the world lives by don’t affect us. It never ceases to amuse me how hurt people act when they find out they are wrong
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“Is not using the “N” word politically correct or is it simply the right thing to do? Can it be both? Does it have to be one or the other?”
Actually, you make my point for me, thank you
To not use the “N” word in certain context is appropriate. Unfortunately, the PC crowd demands that it not be used in classic works of literature….that is wrong.
I am sure there are times when using the Sioux name is not appropriate, however, the manner and intent of the use of the name at UND is neither hostile nor abusive.
Yet, you have the president of UND skulking around like a little Herman Goering of the PC police looking for offenders at their work cubicle.
In doing so he behaves in the same way as the overzealous PC N@z!’s that demand the “N” word be removed from classic literature i.e. Mark Twain.
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Always you never cease to amaze me. You have yet to make a valid point, but I admire your determination to one day fall upon one by accident.
No one I know of is arguing to remove the N word from Huck Finn. Yes some silly people tried, but they failed. Who put an end to them: English Professors. We all know how conservative that group is.
Some things are just plain wrong Always. There is such a thing as right and wrong. The part you do not like is what is considered right vs wrong changes over time as society grows.
In the 1940 calling an African American the N word or a host of other epithets was perfectly acceptable. Now it is not. In the 1940s and 1950s the nickname and cartoon were acceptable, now they are not.
This really is not that difficult to understand Always, even for an adult who lives in his mother’s basement.
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talk about “urban myths”
How about the myth that the Seminoles received some type of payment for the use of the name at the University.
People that believe that have no regard for the Seminole Tribe….similar to the feelings they have for the Sioux. They believe that they are for sale…pathetic.
hey always………. it has been a well known fact in the college sports world for years that the Seminoles sold out the rights to their name for big bucks. The old saying goes; MONEY TALKS, B.S. WALKS.
And Paul, I agree you are a cynical old old fart :p and it is true that the Native Americans have enjoyed alot of benefits like free tuition and various other programs for the use of the Sioux name. It has been a Win-Win situation on both sides, UND gets and does uphold the HONORABLE Sioux name and the Native Americans get their free or reduced cost education that definitely has helped thousands of UND graduates in their endeavors after college.
well known fact?
it is a myth….if not….prove it.
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Always’ comments about the Seminoles got me thinking so I started to do some research. A friend attends FSU so I decided to tap into his resources. FSU and the Florida Seminole tribe have a written agreement that governs the use of the imagery. This agreement came about after tribal leaders saw a local fraternity’s mascot “Chief Fullabull” parading around in Indian garb acting the fool. The leaders also had concerns over the cartoonish nature of Sammy Seminole, the school’s official mascot.
After meetings between the Seminole tribe and FSU, Chief Fullabull disappeared (interesting since it belonged to the fraternity not FSU, so read between the lines, the school’s admin ordered its removal and the fraternity complied) and Sammy Seminole was retired.
In their place the tribe worked with the school to come up with imagery they felt more appropriately reflected the tribe. They also kept control, via contract, with how and when that imagery may be used.
This is different from UND because the school worked with the tribes BEFORE the NCAA ever became involved. Because the school had a written agreement with the tribe, the NCAA allowed the name to be used.
As we have said many times, UND was not allowed to keep the name because they never bothered to get buy in from the people the nickname and logo supposedly represent. If the logo and nickname supporters had been proactive the situation might be different, but since they weren’t, the nickname and cartoon are gone.
What is instructive about the Seminole experience is that when the tribe said they didn’t like something, the school did not respond with “it was never our intention to be insulting so therefore the fact that you are insulted has no meaning;” they retired the insulting imagery and worked with the tribe to develop a replacement.
Remember all this happened before the NCAA decided it did not like Native American imagery. FSU did not sit around and complain how the world was out to get them and how PC had run amuck, they lead the way in how to make the change palatable for everyone.
As for the money issue, this Professor just laughed. He says there is no official wordage in the agreement dealing with money (the contract is with the University, so by definition the State of Florida), but the alumni association goes to great lengths and considerable expense to insure the tribes wishes are met. Remember, the tribe controls the imagery.
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And before Always pulls up wikipedia and bombards us with undocumented, un-cited babble, not all Seminoles feel “honored” that FSU uses their name. A minority of Florida Seminoles fight the name and imagery. This is a concern at FSU because they are allowed to use the name as long as the Seminoles agree. If there is a political shift among the tribe and the anti-nickname forces gain control: it is ND in FL time.
The Seminoles in OK are also split, but like in FL, the pro nickname faction is in control.
There is no such thing as a contract that lasts “in perpetuity.” We discussed this earlier when Always et. al, were going on and on about their sacred pipe ceremony.
What I found amusing about the discussion of tribal politics, is Always and his group are all for tribal sovereignty when it suits their purpose (the Seminoles), but if SR chooses to give their consent, then they are simply fascists who are disenfranchising their members.
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Further research. This just gets better and better.
“1947: The Florida Flambeau reports that “Seminoles” will be the athletic team name. Some of the other proposed names were the Crackers, Statesmen, Tarpons, Swamprats and Tally Whackers.”
Kind of makes Flickertails seem tame in comparison.
One final “fun fact:” FSU began using the name Seminoles in 1947. It was not until 1993 that the first member of the Seminole tribe graduated from FSU.
I do not know, but I hope UND has a better record with Sioux/Lakota/Dakota, etc.
Normally I enjoy reading your posts and I applaud your decorum. The thing, though, that just rubs me the wrong way and in a way kind of irks me when I see it is calling the logo a cartoon.
Bugs Bunny, RoadRunner, Speedy Gonzalez, and many more. Those. Those were cartoons. There were many many racial references or characters that are offensive and those are cartoons. The logo? If that is a cartoon I would hate to ask what you think the Cleveland Indian’s logo is? What about the Gophers? Huskies? All seem more like “cartoons” to me than the logo. In fact, I can’t think of any logo that isn’t a cartoon then. Unless you just have letters…..like we do now. Then its not a logo….they’re letters.
Like I said, this is the ONLY issue I have had with your posts, and wanted to voice my opinion on the subject.
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He nodded off in Art class.
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Stormy: Always & I discussed this a while back. I find very little difference between the Cleveland Indian’s or Chicago Blackhawks logos & UND’s. They are all cartoons.
Alway’s blew a gasket over my caricturization of the logo as a caricature. He thinks the logo is a portrait.
In both cases it is an exaggerated image done foe effect. The square jaw & steady eyes are designed to portray strength & power.
Not all cartoons are meant to appear comical. Some are very dark.
Our old logo is an exaggerated fictional representation designed to elicit a response. It is distinct, but in the end it is just a picture. When the new name is chosen it too will come with a picture of some type.
It’s marketing. It’s not real.
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“This is different from UND because the school worked with the tribes BEFORE the NCAA ever became involved. Because the school had a written agreement with the tribe, the NCAA allowed the name to be used.”
This is incorrect.
The sacred ceremony that was initiated by UND officials and the Tribe is a contract meeting the test of the Supreme Court.
The NCAA tried to impose their useless and racist policy on the Seminoles…FSU and the Seminoles told them to go pound sand.
Which is what UND should have done…but no one had the courage.
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Selective history Always. What is it the kids say when they are calling you out: BOLDERDASH.
There is a very nice section on FSU website about the nickname. I would encourage you to go & explore.
FSU won their Case against the NCAA because they were ready.
UND lost because it could not get SR to agree.
No more about the sacred pipe, we dealt with that. An earlier generation said yes, the present generation said no.
My guess is sometime in the next 10-15 years FSU will be going through the same thing we are when the anti-nickname forces gain political ascendency.
I will give UND one thing: our chants aren’t half as racist & stereotypical as FSU. They are embarrassing, & they proudly put video on thei website showing it. I know it is the deep south, but give me a break.
Swamp People Live!
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Think about how different things could have been if the nickname supporters had went to SL & SR & said, “the university appointed a committee to study the issue & they think we should retire the name. What do you think? How can we change things to better represent Native Americans in ND?”
That never happened. Instead everyone applauded Ralph’s generosity, treated his letter to Kupchella & the state board as the final word, then became angry & confused when people went right on calling for the marketing gimmick’s demise.
Imagine what a little forethought could have done?
Now: too little too late.
The most important part of the post is the part where the Seminole Chiefs complained about stupid white kids dressed up like Indians playing the fool & the school using a mascot that makes Indians look like bafoons, & the school got rid of both within a year. THEN after the offensive images were gone, they sat down together & came up with new ones.
There is a right way to do things, & a wrong way. They did it right & kept their name. We did it backwards and …
So, by your standard, the FSU name and logo are hostile and abusive.
Yet they retain the use of the name and logo because ….why?
Due to some arbitrary ruling by the NCAA? Because of some hastily thrown together “vote” by some people within a certain geographic region?
Do you know why none of this makes sense?
Because the entire issue is based on a false premise. That premise that somehow changing the name of a school mascot will have any effect on anything.
There has been absolutely no evidence of any benefit from this ignorant and racist policy that the NCAA has produced. The whole exercise has been merely an attempt by some liberal elites to pretend they care about Native Americans.
The NCAA paternalistic and condescending treatment of the Spirit Lake Sioux is the evidence of how they really feel about Native Americans.
Always, explaining the reality of the situation to you is a waste of time. You will have sour grapes regardless. You did not get your way and you are having a temper tantrum. There really is no more to say.
But just for you:
The NCAA makes it very clear that they think FSU use of Indian imagery is wrong. However, because FSU has an agreement with the named tribe, they get to keep their name.
UND does not have an agreement with the people it said it would get an agreement with so it does not get to keep its name.
I have said it before and I will say it again Always: The problem is not the NCAA. It is the people of ND. They did not keep their end of the bargain and are now looking for someone other than themselves to blame.
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The NCAA institutes a useless and racist policy…and it is the fault of the people of North Dakota?
Yes…that is very logical.
What was the benefit from this policy?
I am sure that wherever the names have been censored that there is no more bigotry, racism, crime, disease, pesitlence etc…..correct?
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“Because the entire issue is based on a false premise. That premise that somehow changing the name of a school mascot will have any effect on anything.”
I hate to do this to you Always, but it is too easy to pass up. I am forever riling on you about taking one sentence out of an entire response and trying to spin it into something that fits your distorted world view. But since you made it so easy …
If the nickname and marketing logo are of no consequence, why are you beating your chest and howling at the moon over their demise?
Like I have said every day for a week: stick to the I don’t like people telling me what to do argument. You get a lot of support for that. Stop with the “it shows honor because I say so” argument, you just look foolish.
And, as I said above: I found FSU practices very distasteful. Definitely will not cry when they are gone.
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“You get a lot of support for that. Stop with the “it shows honor because I say so” argument, you just look foolish.”
I didn’t say it…Mr. Arlo Lame did.
QUOTE: “I am a proud owner of a 200-year-old Lakota Strong Heart Holy Man’s headdress like the one worn by the man on the horse in front of the Ralph Engelstad Arena as well as Sitting Bull. I also have the title.
I do not speak for all Indians, only the true Fighting Sioux: the Teton Lakota Sioux, all of whom are not in the state of North Dakota, but we are all in the state of South Dakota, on the Pine Ridge, Rosebud, Cheyenne River and the South Dakota part of the Standing Rock Sioux reservations.
No one has even bothered to ask us how we feel about the Fighting Sioux nickname. We are the ones who fought Custer; we are the true Fighting Sioux, the Teton Lakota of South Dakota.
Ask us, and we would maybe be 100 percent in favor of the statue and the nickname.
Like all the other promises that were made and broken, we now are going to see another promise broken, this one made to a dead man, Ralph Engelstad.
Like I’ve said before, if we don’t fight to keep this name, we don’t deserve to have it. The NCAA needs to be Siouxed.”
Tundra is right. We covered him on the other thread. We went over sentence by sentence where his op ed piece in the local paper did not hold water. Last time I checked he was one man with one opinion. Did someone forget to tell all the other Indians they had a new spokesman?
One man with one opinion?
I am not the one that cries foul everytime someone displays an image or utters a sound that may offend someone somewhere…
I leave that to the Politically Correct crowd.
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You folks just can’t help yourselves can you….This has nothing to do with that messed up Sioux soup, but sure as hell every same old argument has found its way here…..Like a buch of piggies rolling in the mud….Over and over and over …….again…
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Are you sure it’s mud, TB?
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