Duluth City Council takes stand against corporate ‘personhood’
December 29, 2011 at 6:00 pm in Duluth News Tribune
Duluth made history last week when it became the first city in the state to pass a resolution in support of a constitutional amendment that would essentially overturn a U.S. Supreme Court decision, namely Citizens United vs. the Federal Election Commission.
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Maybe we need to have two Duluth city councils, one to waste time and money on non-relevant items, and one to actually focus on issues within the city of Duluth?
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Typical DFL move Sam…bring up something that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue being discussed to make up for your lack of intelligent arguments. Bravo.
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“I left because we weren’t conducting city business any more in my eyes,” Fosle said. “Do we really think the U.S. Supreme Court is going to dig through our minutes to see what the Duluth City Council thinks it should do?”
The DCC is a joke. I cannot wait until the market rebounds and I can sell my house and move.
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THANK YOU COUNCILOR FOSLE FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING AND WALKING AWAY FROM THIS NONSENSE!
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A couple of notable points, Mike:
-Fosle walking out of the meeting didn’t prevent a vote on this resolution.
-The Wisconsin budget repair bill was actual legislation, not a meaningless resolution.
-To target a particular type of business structure (corporations) and ignore the various other mass-contributors to politics (unions, PACs) is not only discriminatory, it is a dangerous precedent to be setting–even on a local level.
-For a city council to be passing resolutions related to Supreme Court rulings is a waste of time. They might as well have been arguing about who their favorite Backstreet Boy is: Their opinion on the topic doesn’t matter AT ALL.
-For the councilors to ignore the billions of union dollars involved in American politics is a disgrace to the City of Duluth and its council. Hypocrisy at the highest level.
-If this is the garbage our council is wasting its time on, perhaps we should look into recall elections. Of all the things I can think of, this might be the most pointless. Perhaps the council will propose a resolution next week declaring itself the most purposeless governing body in the State of Minnesota. Again, it’d be a waste of time, but they’d at least be spot-on in their self-analysis.
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Be careful. With this city council the Duluth housing market may not rebound. There are a lot of fed up hard workers who looking for transfers. All that will be left are people who vote for folks like Sharla and Anderson. Throw in the lost casino revenue and you better not have a nice house in Duluth. Anyone who works and has any success will be singled out for ridicule and higher property taxes.
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No, Duluth did not make history – it proved once again that i’s elected officials are morons.
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Let’s celebrate a Karl Marx day. Maybe we could use the art money to replace Leif Erickson with a bronze of the great man.
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A couple things. Why are unions allowed to fill up the coffers of politicians without any disclosure and they are directly using their members money? Second, why is the city counsel wasting their time so Anderson can pad his political resume right before he runs for Democratic Congressional nomination?? This is the biggest joke and waste of time and the fact that they dont see through this shows their complete incompetence.
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You mean kind of like what Hussein has been doing since he got elected? Talk about lies and misinformation. Conservatives are pikers compared to the Democrats and in particular Hussein himself. BTW: Hows that Hope and Change working for you?
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Yune, I am neither a Conservative nor a Republican. I am fiercely unaffiliated and will vote for the best person for the office. As for misinformation, I do not deliberately disseminate any but being human I am entitled to an occasional error…OK?
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Please folks, stop using the moniker “democratic” when identifying democrats; they are anything but democratic. As we see by this City Council resolution they are fascist. Try democrat, or democratik, if you need to include the ick in democrat.
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Great PR for the folks we pay to attract business to the city.
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Bret I have to disagree with your “this is grassroots, local democracy at its best” statement.
What this is, is bought and paid for union special interest political payback, with union members earnings, of which many union members do not support nor want their money wages spent on politics and their big union boss compensation packages.
Hardly grassroots Bret.
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Bret: Regardless of what you and I feel about the U.S. Sup. Ct’s decision, how can you with a straight face claim that this is “Grassroots democracy at its best”? Seriously? How can this “vote” benefit the City of Duluth in any way? You need to get your utopian view of the world head out of the clouds and come back to planet Earth.
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“Head out of the clouds”?, I suggest his head is elsewhere.
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This vote was just union owned puppets dancing to their union masters wishes by showing disdain for campaign money flowing from the opposition (corporations) for the purpose of opposing union money supported candidates. Pure puppet politics, that’s all. Duluth is such a joke.
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So apparently the city council is OK with organized labor wielding a heavy hand in the political realm, but management is restricted from having their say. Interesting double standard. Forgive me for my following diatribe, as I must dispel the utter ignorance that is being tossed about as fact by the AreaVoices rubes on the left:
-As far as corporations making campaign contributions for the purpose of “promoting cheap off-shore labor” and “the decimation of the middle class”: Can you provide some actual proof of this magical unspoken sinister conspiracy that you speak of? I’d like to read up on it, because this would be the most sensational piece of political literature since Wikileaks went viral.
-Be careful with your assertion that the outsourcing of jobs is a bad thing, Rose: The economy of the United States was founded on jobs that were outsourced from European countries throughout the 1800s up until WWII. Shouldn’t we afford the same nation-building opportunities to other developing countries? The U.S. workforce currently includes 5.5 million workers who work for foreign companies; to argue against outsourcing means rejecting the benefits of these jobs, lest ye be considered a hypocrite.
-It seems to be yet another glaring hypocrisy that most of those on the left are all for open borders, diversity and helping the poor while at the same time denigrating companies that open factories and businesses in foreign lands–helping millions of people out of poverty in countries around the world. Apparently, liberals believe that we ought only help Americans–even though the “poor” in America have access to programs, universities, tech schools and dozens of other options to better their lot in life. Can the same be said for those who live in southeast Asia? Or Africa? What is wrong with helping Asians and Africans who are living in deplorable conditions–poverty the likes of which cannot be found anywhere in the United States? Wow, who’s the racist faction now?
-Simply put, it is time to expect more out of Americans. A 40-hour per week union assembly line position should not be a career, let alone provide for an upper-middle class lifestyle–it should be a safety net, or a stepping stone to something better. To expect middle class wages for unskilled labor is not doing right by either the worker or the employer. Worse, economic mobility–the single most liberating aspect of capitalism–is severely curtailed by organized labor, making promotions next-to-impossible and basing all raises not on work ethic, merit or character, but on the uninspiring measures of seniority, longevity and inane economic indicators. The calculated risk-taking, extra effort, genuine creativity and increased productivity that leads to raises or bonuses, career advancement and increased responsibility? Yeah, about those things……..these virtues are frowned upon in labor union circles; that is, you are encouraged, nay, IMPLORED to do only what is laid out in your collective bargaining agreement. The private sector not only embraces these ideals, but embodies them as well.
-The middle class is disappearing because they are settling for something much lower than their true potential, and because the liberal left no longer accepts that failure is a part of life that teaches valuable lessons; worse yet, this “settling” is now accompanied by a toxic sense of entitlement that is rotting away at the foundation of America: Our youth. (See also: Wall Street, Occupy) Since 1980, the salaries of the “1%” have risen 400%. Not surprisingly, the GDP of the United States has risen by about the same percentage, which begs the question: Why is the 99% is lagging behind?
-Until we start rewarding the entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great and allowing people–and businesses–to fail, regroup and try again, we will continue to sink further into the abyss that is the graveyard of the world’s great dynasties.
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Boy, it’s a good thing Democrats don’t have obscenely rich financial backers, both individual and corporate, and that they don’t spend obscene amounts of money on lobbyists and PACs. If that ever happened, people might think you’re a hypocrite.
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Let’s have some fun with facts!
BP: Employs about 80,000 people; most working in production/refining are members of labor unions. Average salary: $52,000 according to SimplyHired.com.
Exxon: Employs about 84,000 people; most working in production/refining are members of labor unions. Average salary: $60,000.
Koch Inudstries: Employs about 70,000 people; most working in paper/wood related industries are unionized (Many of these jobs are located in Wisconsin). Average salary: $46,000, though there are too many subsidiaries to search them all.
It certainly doesn’t seem like these three corporations are “crushing” wages and benefits. Heck, they aren’t even open shops or merit shops. Your union jobs have “slightly” better wages and benefits as you state. Unfortunately they’re also five times as likely to be job positions at a company that goes through bankruptcy proceedings. Unions are bad for business–like a parasite that eventually kills its host. Mark my words: The next wave of bankruptcies will be municipalities, shortly followed by counties and then states; that is, public sector unions like AFSCME and the AFL-CIO are pushing government bodies across the nation past the brink of fiscal solvency.
The organized labor response? Screw you. Pay up. (See also: retirees, City of Duluth)
You’re bringing an intellectual squirt gun to the OK Corral, RoseT–proven by your propensity for namecalling and lack of class. Let’s deal with facts and logic instead of empty rhetoric and personal biases.
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I don’t pretend to be anything or anybody. I apologize that you’ve had to Google a large number of the words I’ve used; I put in a lot of hard work when I was a student in grade school.
Anyhow, let’s have a little fun and break down your post sentence by sentence:
“Being a union employee is better than not being a union employee.”
This is a 100% matter of opinion. Definitely not a fact. And if you’ve been burned by a labor union (like many people and businesses I know) or have been charged outrageous dues for little-to-no benefits (like I have), you’d know that most intelligent people prefer to carry their own water rather have someone else fight their battles. Furthermore, unions may artificially bump the pay scale up a little, but they also put a cap on what you can make. That’s a big negative……well, for anyone with any dreams, aspirations or work ethic, that is.
“I think everyone should have paid holidays, vacation, sick leave, have safe working conditions, no discrimination, and a fair wage.”
You think people should be paid not to work? And you expect those whose money is on the line to pay their employees not to work? The “benefits” you listed are just that–benefits. Privileges. Not entitlements. Not rights. As for safe working conditions: OSHA exists. Discrimination? What a joke. People are discriminated against every day in the workplace based on education, experience and personal achievements. Of course, labor unions don’t take these personal attributes into account when making personnel decisions: It’s all based on seniority–and in many cases concerning corruption, cronyism and nepotism. If you’re talking about racial discrimination, lest we forget that it was Democrats that were pro-slavery, pro-Jim Crow and pro-segregation…..not the free market-favoring Republicans like Abe Lincoln. Fair wages? Negotiate your own wages based on your own record and quit whining. If you have any real marketable skills, someone will want to employ you.
“We can thank the unions for that–not BP or the Koch brothers.”
Actually, it is BP, ExxonMobil and Koch Industries that offer paid vacations, sick leave, health insurance, 401k, etc. These benefits are not provided by the labor unions, and are provided to union and non-union workers alike. Oddly enough, these same benefits exist even in industries that have never been unionized, so to state that labor unions are responsible for every fringe benefit offered by employers is overstating your case at best. Interestingly enough, the unsustainable nature of pension programs touted by organized labor is what has become a millstone around the necks of government bodies across the nation.
“Btw, perhaps all those big automakers should have had a bit more intellect on the executive level and built some cars that people actually wanted and could afford.”
I actually agree with you here, but the reasons surely differ. Demand for American vehicles began lagging when the quality of craftsmanship (read: union labor) dropped off in the late 1970s and allowed foreign competitors to gain market share. As far as affordability is concerned: Without the overhead of the bloated wage, pension and benefit packages that exist in Detroit, the foreign competition was able to put out a higher quality product at a lower price. Blame the unions for the second part of this equation as well.
So once again, you’ve proven your ideology to be devoid of any real substance. Keep typing, though……eventually you may realize that your position is indefensible.
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Next the council will be endorsing political candidates, Democrats of course.
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Why not? Lefties love the meaningless gesture.
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What a bunch of monkeys fornicating footballs the council has become. Makes a person almost miss Greg Gilbert. And to think, it’ll only get worse thanks to those 18 mouth-breathers who put Julsrud in office.
As others have said, the whole anti-corporate donations have ZERO qualms about where union money goes. And that’s money that’s stolen from workers. How much extra could those “hard working members!” have in their pockets if dues weren’t siphoned off for this crap?
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You can have contempt for a minority position, but you still have to live with it. Or didn’t you really understand what living in a mufti-cultural society really meant?
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Been out of Duluth for 6 years and have never regretted the move. It’s a wanna be big city that shows how pathetic it really is by every stupid decision from the new unlicensed superintendent to the goofy resolutions they pass. Wake up and try to recruit business, grow business and save business. Tourism can’t carry all the water.
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As to the Supreme Court itself, it has been one of the slowest and doing less work than any court in recent history (the past 50 years or so). Talk about another Washington institution (like Congress) that isn’t getting any work done.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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This city has lost its marbles.
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This beautiful city has suffered through decades of decline due to its inability to attract and retain quality jobs. The perception of an unfriendly business climate run by a dysfunctional City Council is a main contributor to its lack of growth. The City Council’s priority focus should be reversing the unfriendly business image and this meaningless, symbolic resolution does just the opposite. It’s terrible PR which reinforces Duluth’s long-touted reputation as a city with a horrible business climate.
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Merv – I actually prefer the thumbs down. I tire of reading the garbage you call an intelligent thought. This way, I don’t even have to look at it.
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LOL!!!! Union members….hard working??? Thanks for the laugh, magnumpi!!!!
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magnumpi,
Duluth registered voters are overwhelmingly DFL so winning elections isn’t a matter of mobilizing the base. It’s a heavy union town similar to other basket case cities like Detroit & Gary, IN. The public unions have had no natural adversary; they give politicians political support and get good contracts back. It’s uniquely dysfunctional and has virtually bankrupted Duluth with a $200 million health care liability
22 percent of the Duluth population is living below the poverty line and single mothers with children under five in Duluth have a poverty rate of around 80 percent. This group is another DFL constituency and consumes most of the welfare and healthcare benfits you derisvely cite.
This fourm provides a voice for conservatives in this City. With elections for the most part unwinnable the media provides an opportunity to convert some wayward DFL souls.
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Unions most certainly DO NOT help the average working person. Organized labor is essentially a pyramid scheme–if you get in early, you’re safe. Your pension is virtually guaranteed, no matter how obscenely structured or corruptly negotiated. Those below you don’t matter–as long as you get yours.
With regards to the seniority-based work rules: Heaven forbid you’re the last guy hired before an economic downturn and the subsequent layoffs–it doesn’t matter how hard you worked, low man on the totem pole gets the walking papers. All that matters is how long you’ve been there. There’s no “shared sacrifice” in a union environment Take for example the workers at non-union, Minnesota-based Marvin Windows: These employees, in order to avoid layoffs, cut all work weeks to 36 hours instead of giving the ax to 10% of its workforce.
Think that’d have happened in a union shop? Not a chance.
Contrast this scenario with the current debacle in Detroit: The vast majority of the 100,000+ manufacturing jobs lost in the Detroit area were directly attributable to the GM/Chrysler bankruptcy/bailouts, and the reorganization at Ford. These jobs vanished; there was no outsourcing.
Simply stated: “Billionaires” did not “ship the jobs to Asia” from Detroit. This irrational claim is patently false on every possible level. To attempt to pass off this statement as truth ignores the glaring lack of facts surrounding your convoluted, ill-conceived assertion.
What is interesting is that the non-union foreign automakers did not have the occurance of mass-layoffs at their American plants. Interesting. Did you ever stop and wonder why GM and Chrysler had to file for bankruptcy and the foreign automakers did not? I’d be willing to bet it has something to do with the outrageous wages and benefits extorted from GM and Chrysler over the years by the UAW and its corrupt leadership; the “Job Bank” is example 1A of the degenerative practices of labor unions. (Google “UAW corruption” for a good read)
The ultra-wealthy do not oppress the average American; entitlement-era group-think–such as labor union ideology–most certainly does. I’m certain there is some corruption between corporations and politicians; this corruption PALES in comparison to the outright payoffs, bribes and hush money paid by organized labor to the very politicians who vote upon their labor contracts and government agencies–such as the NLRB–after their political and economic enemies. I’ll side with the private sector every day of the week……at least there are some good guys on that side of the fence.
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You can call it propaganda all you’d like–it doesn’t change the fact that everything I posted is firmly rooted in the truth.
As for “oppressing working people”: I do more in any given day to ensure Americans remain employed and/or get hired than you could ever imagine. I’d be able to do more for some companies, but when a workplace is unionized, I don’t even bother. You can’t help a business succeed when their workers aren’t interested in increasing productivity, quality or effort.
I don’t need “the rich” to thank me. I thank them every day for allowing me to work with their business entities to ensure the success of their companies and subsequently reinvest in their employees, facilities and families. You should thank the rich as well–they pay the majority of the taxes, take on risk to create jobs and employ more people than any labor union ever will. (An FYI: Unions have never created a blue collar job. Ever)
So go pound sand, Mr. Selleck. I’m part of the solution, not the problem.
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Racer – I suppose you consider yourself a “competent debater”?
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Racer:
Go ahead and disprove something–ANYTHING–I’ve stated.
Lukewarm regards,
WW
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Here we go then WW:
“What is interesting is that the non-union foreign automakers did not have the occurance of mass-layoffs at their American plants. Interesting. Did you ever stop and wonder why GM and Chrysler had to file for bankruptcy and the foreign automakers did not? I’d be willing to bet it has something to do with the outrageous wages and benefits extorted from GM and Chrysler over the years by the UAW and its corrupt leadership”
- If this point had any validity; that GM and Chrysler’s problems are due to the unionization of their work forces, then why is Ford doing so well. I think one thing in their favor is their big presence in the European market. While Chrysler and GM were making their money here selling trucks and SUV’s Ford was making small, stylish and efficient models in Europe.
“Demand for American vehicles began lagging when the quality of craftsmanship (read: union labor) dropped off in the late 1970s and allowed foreign competitors to gain market share.”
- A nonsensical point. The cars were made by union labor before this quality drop off that you speak of. Was union labor better before the 70′s? I don’t get it.
That’s all I have time for WW. These are complicated issues. I don’t think you can just say unions or large corporations are bad. Yes the union can be something for a poor employee to hide behind, but look at corporations like McDonald’s who have designed their business model around low skilled, non-union, part time (with no benefits) employees. In other words crappy job creators. There are good and bad on both sides. You said something about cronyism and nepotism in an earlier post referring to unions. Ok fair enough, but you act like those things don’t exist in your beloved fair market. Do you believe large corporations are immune to those ills? The republican party?
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I’ve got other work to do, so I’ll make this quick:
*Ford elimimnated 38,000 employees in 2006, and has laid off more workers since.
*Ford forced the UAW to accept concessions far earlier than GM or Chrysler–notably, a wage freeze instituted in 2005.
*In the last 12 years, Ford rolled out the Expedition and Excursion….hardly small, stylish and efficient.
*Ford Europe, while a top seller, is not terribly profitable in comparison.
*Ford mortgaged its assets in 2006 to secure a $25 billion line of credit.
*In comparison, the sale of Land Rover and Jaguar brought in $2.3 billion–or about 18% of the company’s losses in 2006.
*Pretty sure GM is still making cars in America. The 100,000 jobs lost in Detroit were a total. Do your homework.
*The UAW unionized AMF, Schwinn and Murray. All three were forced to close their doors and move due to labor costs.
*The UAW also forced auto parts maker Delphi into bankruptcy in 2005 after failing to agree to concessions that would have kept the company solvent.
*The Bailout of GM/Chrysler should be more correctly termed the UAW Bailout, as they did not lose a penny in the bankruptcy proceedings despite being unsecured creditors.
*Even worse, the UAW (along with the federal government) ended up owning significant portions of GM and Chrysler. Corruption at its finest.
*The UAW pension fund accepted misused TARP funds in order to make it whole.
*Non-union pensioners (secretaries, engineers, technicians, etc.) from Delphi have seen their benefits slashed by up to 70% by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.
*The UAW (and several other union pension funds) were completely bailed out, and thus not subject to the PBGC reorganization.
*You can blame engineering or management all you want: The Pinto, Vega and K-Car are living examples of crappy workmanship.
*If labor gets a political voice via their money, management should get the same opportunity.
*There’s a difference between being anti-union and being for a person’s right to decide if they want to join a union.
*A corporation is a group of people acting in their best interests as well.
*George Soros has a laundry list of over 100 organizations that he funds to carry out the liberal progressive marching orders handed down from the convicted insider trading billionaire himself.
*The rest of your tin-foil Koch/Heritage/John Birch rant is rooted firmly in your biases against conservative ideals. Go ahead and rant. The difference between conservatives and liberals is that, like your cute lil’ quote, conservative principles don’t change.
Fastone: Just another liberal that refuses to acknowledge the facts.
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My point about Ford in Europe is that they were directly competing against other companies in a market without subsidized gas like we have. Because of the lack of subsidies, Europe has always paid more for their gas and thus has pressure to make efficient cars. Ford benefited from this direct competition by being more prepared to sell cars to an American public that finally had to think about efficiency.
Your many points about companies closing say the same thing. We only have a few choices here. Unions try to keep wages at a level like in the past when workers could raise a family at a middle class level. We are now competing against companies who’s workers make less. We can either protect or workers with trade policies like others do or we can pay our auto workers like fry cooks at McDonalds. Another option would be increase the technology and skill of our work force through education to no longer have to compete directly with these developing countries who otherwise will pass us by. What is your solution? You blame unions, but then what? Without protection for workers it seems to me fry cook wages are the result. I am sure you can name some non-union companies with good wages, but you think if you were honest you could easily name more where this wasn’t the case. Wallmart has cleaned up its act some, but this only came after much bad press and many lives and businesses damaged. Even so, would you want the average job from our nations largest employer? Why not its a non -union shop?
With or without unions, regulated or unregulated business, large government or small none of it matters if we continue to watch as others catch and then pass us by. Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, China, India, Brasil, Russia…. I am no expert, but these countries are rising fast. How many engineers are produced in India every year? Remember when made in Japan meant a similar thing to made in China now? Remember when Korean cars were at the lowest end of quality? Every year these countries raise the level of the quality of their products. What are we doing? Look at Germany, what kind of products do they sell? High end. While we sit around and bicker over whether or not to dig up and sell some of our copper?
Our only chance to compete long term and not lose our standard of living is EDUCATION! Stay a step ahead. Paying now for the best possible education would produce delayed gratification. Americans don’t like to wait, but if we don’t think and act with the long view in mind I’m afraid it will be checkmate.
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Hey LoserLoser, you should be fired from your job tonight for wasting so much time on this crappy blog. I wouldn’t have even said anything myself if your comments weren’t so profoundly off base.
LL: “If labor gets a political voice via their money, management should get the same opportunity.”
They do. They’re called corporations. And they contribute upwards of 10 times the amount of money that organized labor contributes.
As for the rest of your arguments, you express that all of these businesses are laying off union workers because of their decent wages and benefits. And there is some truth to that. But you’re off base because you don’t acknowledge that the reason unionized companies in the U.S. can’t remain competitive is because 3rd world workers are paid pennies compared to us. By your logic, the only way America can remain competitive is essentially if we compete with slaves. And the only way to do that is by making products that are cheaper than what slaves are able to produce. How can you support such a ridiculous concept? Wouldn’t it be better to stop doing business with these 3rd world countries, instead of driving down our standard of living to “compete” with 3rd world slave wages (which, by the way, are also managed by U.S. corporations)?
I genuinely think that you want to help this country, LL, I really do. However, whatever you have been taught that makes you think that a global, non-unionized free-market will “help the average working person”, I’m afraid that it does just the opposite. And it’s this Friedman-eque ideology, not unions or politicians, that has gotten our country into this downward slump since the 1980s.
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Ford is not unique in that manner. GM Europe has been making the same types of cars under the labels of Opel and Vauxhall for decades.
Other than that, you’re correct in many regards, and I’m not sure that you realize why. WalMart isn’t supposed to be a provider of middle class, entry-level jobs. For the love of God, it’s RETAIL. No job skills required. Fry cooks at McD’s? No job skills required. Assembly line workers? Maybe a few job skills required, but not enough to command upwards of $25 an hour.
You want a solution to raise wages? Eliminate the minimum wage. Those who were complacent working in a dead-end, low wage job will look elsewhere. They’ll go back to school. They’ll look into starting their own business. They’ll move to where there are more opportunities. You state that there are all of these companies that pay crappy wages…..please, name them. I want to know these companies you speak of that are paying minimum wage for retail workers, or paying poverty-level wages for skilled labor. Enlighten me, please.
Of course, you then malign WalMart for supposedly low wages; it should be pointed out that their average wage is 65% above minimum wage. Just because they’re a large corporation doesn’t mean they should pay more for retail labor than their competitors, does it?
If Walmart could pay $3.50 an hour, they would. And the masses of people working there would go elsewhere. And you know what? Walmart would end up paying more in order to keep employees. No one forces people to work at Walmart. And as for an “average” job: I’d take it. Walmart is known for promoting from within; the majority of their store managers started as associates or stockboys/girls. They have an excellent management training program, and opportunity for advancement is abundant.
What you are correct about is education. That said, we need to stop telling today’s youth two things:
“You’ll make a good living as long as you have a college degree.”
“If you do what you love to do, you’ll never work a day in your life.”
We push too many kids into four-year colleges and tell them to study what interests them. First of all, not ever kid is cut out for college; I’d argue that a third of college students have no business being there in the first place. Secondly, so many college grads end up in completely unrelated fields that it becomes not only pointless, but a waste of money when you consider the tens of thousands of dollars in debt today’s grads must manage. But most disturbing is the large number of grads who end up with a useless degree. An undergrad in art history, English, psychology, etc. won’t do a bit of good unless you’re planning on grad school. You really love art? Sorry, not everyone gets to be graphic designer when they grow up. If you want to major in a low-paying field that has little-to-no demand, be my guest. Just don’t start crying to me about student debt and being broke, because you made that decision yourself.
Look at what the foreign exchange students are majoring in, and you’ll get a pretty good idea why we’re being caught in the world economic arena: Math and science-related fields.
Trade schools–and even apprenticeships–need to be emphasized for those who choose not to go the route of the four-year college. Entrepreneurship should not only be emphasized, it should be mandatory high school coursework and a highly-encouraged career path for our best and brightest.
This isn’t a matter of government-funding for post-secondary education, it is a matter of developing a workforce of well-trained, cutting edge workers instead of the drum-circle, do-nothing entitlement-minded ideologues that our colleges and universities are currently churning out.
**It should also be noted that none of the countries you listed has union membership comprising more than 25% of their workforce, and several (Brazil and Singapore, most notably) have imposed quotas on the number of foreign workers who can be employed by a company. That seems a little racist, no?
Finally, any intelligent economist will tell you that it is cheaper to produce your own raw materials than it is to buy them elsewhere. You can cry for Mother Earth all you want; the fact of the matter is that in order to remain competitive we need to utilize the resources that we have readily on hand. If that means digging a hole, fire up the backhoe and dig.
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And of course, fascist LoserLoser advocates for eliminating the minimum wage. Then we can all work in shiny new sweatshops for pennies a day, right here in the good ole’ USA. You do understand that this is what you are advocating for, right?
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Pray tell, Merv: Which US Fortune 500 companies currently pay minimum wage? Please enlighten us, O Snarky One, as to which employers in Duluth currently pay their employees as little as federally-mandated. If you’re trying to argue that an entire economy rests on the shoulders of a $7/hour minimum wage requirement, you’re clearly not thinking straight. If no minimum wage meant sweatshop pay, then why isn’t every factory worker making minimum wage? Why don’t receptionists make $7.25 an hour? All the minimum wage does is placate the few who depend on it for survival. Take away their security blankie of a wage, and they’d go elsewhere…..leaving the employer to find someone who will settle for the wage they’re offering or requiring the employer to offer a higher wage.
News flash, Merv: The minimum wage law does nothing for families. Seven out of ten minimum wage workers lives in a household with a higher wage earner–typically a spouse or parent. Only 2.8% of workers over the age of 30 are making the minimum wage. And then you have basic economic laws: The more it costs to employ a worker, the fewer workers that will be hired
Keep it classy, Merv. Namecalling? Your intellect–or lack thereof–is really shining through. Tough to take someone serious when they make a clown of themselves.
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A better question would be, which Fortune 500 companies DON’T rely on minimum wage workers? Your suggestion that only a small caste of stragglers relies on minimum wage is a ridiculous understatement. If you start counting on all the people who rely on $8/hr, $9/hr, $10.25/hr… it makes up a HUGE chunk of the population. Waiters, bartenders, auto shop workers, retail clerks, taxi drivers, cooks, cleaners, personal care workers, I could go on and on… This is a vast chunk of the workforce that nearly every Fortune 500 company relies on in some way!
By reducing or eliminating the minimum wage, you would see a massive shift of people working for 4, 3, even less than 2 dollars an hour. Dishwashers, hotel housekeepers, and so on. A new poverty class would be born. Look at Mexico. Look at Indonesia. Look at every other country with weak labor laws. That’s what companies do. They pay as little as they can get away with. The fact that you can’t wrap your head around this concept truly shows the small world you choose to live in, because you don’t even acknowledge that the average American is struggling. You don’t acknowledge that over half the world lives in slave-like conditions, as a result of U.S. corporations. You laugh at it. It’s a joke to you. An ideology-driven game. And it earns you the nickname LoserLoser, which I fully stand by, because only a loser would support fascism.
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Also, you didn’t reply to any of my points. Instead you brushed them aside and attacked my tone instead. Someone writing in such a dignified tone such as yourself should have responded to my arguments with counterarguments. For LL, however, it’s no matter… Just attack the messenger, and keep believing the lie. If somebody brings up a contradictory point, ignore them. If you see a poor person, insult and disregard them. That’s the fascist way.
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I’ll make this simple: You once again assert that companies will pay as little as they “can get away with”. If the minimum wage is what is keeping service-industry workers from making three bucks an hour, why isn’t every service-industry worker making the minimum wage? If American companies want to pay their workers as little as possible, why does over 97% of the over-30 population make more than minimum wage? Answer the question, Merv. Stop with your baseless theories on “what we would see”. None of it is based in fact–it is all speculation. Add in the fact that half of the professions you just listed also earn tips that are often unclaimed–therefore skirting tax liability–and it can be easily stated that these workers are making far more than the minimum wage.
Furthermore, I didn’t address your points because you HAVEN’T MADE ANY. You claim that union workers are losing their jobs because of “slave labor” overseas; since foreign automakers–who manufacture a product that is amongst the highest in overhead–aren’t laying off American workers, your assertion is baseless.
What you fail to recognize is the millions of jobs that have been saved via the outsourcing of menial jobs. Do I like seeing Americans unemployed? Of course not. However, if not for the outsourcing measures taken by companies both foreign and domestic, far more American jobs would be lost through the failure of the very businesses themselves. Your economic ideology is one of isolationism, price and wage controls, and anti-competitive bureaucratic mularkey. If YOU think that would help the United States in the long term, you clearly need to re-evaluate your knowledge of economics. I tell you what, Merv: Go ahead and keep tossing the “fascist” label around. I’m not the one who is trying to control the private employment agreements and the business practices of an entire economy…..you are.
Since I’m still in the Christmas spirit, I’ll give you another chance: What “points” would you like to make regarding the minimum wage? Please be specific, and be sure to use facts instead of broad platitudes and empty rhetoric.
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Also, from simplyhired.com: Annual Average Wages
Bartender: $41,000
Waitress: $37,000
Mechanic: $38,000
Retail Clerk: $16,000
Taxi Driver: $31,000
Cook: $26,000
Cleaner: Too varied to list
PCAs: $29,000
No where near minimum wage. Might the entry level be near minimum wage? Possibly. But probably not.
Fail. Epic fail.
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You are so selective on how you see the world. $8.20/hr is more than minimum wage. $7.75/hr is more than minimum wage. That is most likely why 97% of people over 30 make more than minimum wage. Minimum wage plus a dollar raise is nothing more than minimum wage with a slap on the behind. Also, that is a very selective statistic. Most people who work in low-paying fields are under 30 year of age. If you consider how many people our age are content with their low wages, it paints a bleak picture for our future.
However, even still… If most people are earning more than $7.25 anyway, like you said, why would you LOWER the minimum wage even more? Wouldn’t it seem like it’s too low as it is? How could someone earning $4 an hour afford rent? That would essentially pull the drain plug on our country’s potential, because you would be inviting all sorts of immigrant and sweatshop operations to dilute the overall economy.
You also say that, “However, if not for the outsourcing measures taken by companies both foreign and domestic, far more American jobs would be lost through the failure of the very businesses themselves.” How? How could a business fail if there isn’t foreign slave-labor competition? That sounds like either a lie or a misunderstanding on your part.
In any case, I’m done arguing with you. You are the problem, not me. You won’t be happy until half of this country is working for $3 an hour. And you think that it will somehow help people too. The rich/poor gap is wider than it has even been in history!! It is painfully obvious to any freethinking individual!! And while the rich/poor divide continues to get wider and wider, you still advocate for cutting workers rights, cutting their wages, cutting labor protections. What’s wrong? Are the masses not poor enough for you yet? It’s people like you who are holding this country back, with your excuses for greed and your attacks on the impoverished. Not me.
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Also, I KNEW you were going to post a list with people’s salaries!! I was thinking about it earlier today, in fact. Haha!! However, I doubt that SimplyHired.com is very credible compared to, say, the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics. But even better yet, just look outside for once, with your eyes. Go to any random dive bar in the Twin Ports, and ask their bartenders if they earn a decent living. Ask a hotel cleaning staff person if they can afford property and buy stock. As the taxi drivers how many hours they work each week. Your daftness to all of this makes me enlightened, though, because I have realized that there’s no more reason for me to frequent these blogs if people online are as overtly bankrupt of reason as yourself.
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To Racer X~ Thank you for kind words but was posting so many falsehoods that drove me up the wall then the hubris proclamations that is right…that was too much and besides, common knowledge and common sense is what defeated his position and so think giving me too much credit .
Curious if don’t mind…what’s with screen name Racer X? Fastone is because used to race and held some track records at Road America and when are wheel to wheel novice they had you put “X” on every side of car so is why ask. Don’t have to answer, was just curious and clearly not a biggie.
“America is not a country with an Army to defend it, it’s an Army with a country to support it” …me
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Good quote.
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Tips cap towards Merv…thanks. I also agree with your post earlier about the thumbs up and down. Is childish way to run a forum. Have also noticed if a post totally trashes a neocons position here instead of rebuttal, all of a sudden in a few hour time frame there is obscene number of thumbs down to collapse the post. I’m talking about 10 times as many thumbs down sometimes as any other post in the thread which tells me there are more neocon screen names here then keyboards.
“You can observe a lot just by watching. ”
Yogi Berra
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Listen to this City council, the rest of the world dosent care for your meaningless referendum, why dont you focus on what your getting paid to do and that run the city, fix a few pot holes, bring business to the city, you know stuff like that, stuff you were elected to do
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There sure must be, bac. That would explain the large number of liberals. And liberalism, as we all know, is a mental disorder.
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“Liberalism is a mental disorder.” STRAIGHT from the ultra-right wing shock-jock radio host Michael Savage. A man whose show is so clearly filled with hateful racism and propagandist lies that he has been banned from the UK… And you buy into it! If you honestly believe what that man preaches, I would have hated to see how you would have ended up had you been raised in the Weimar Republic before WWII. And, also, it’s not because Michael Savage is too “cutting-edge” and alternative that most media outlets ignore him. It’s because he represents the fascist fringe of the conservative base in America. And, if anything, you have a mental disorder for believing him and quoting him.
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Merv….settle down there, boss. You’re getting all huffy and puffy. Unlike you, I can see the forest for the trees. I’m able to take in multiple points of view and seperate the wheat from the chaff.
And there are several books out there proclaiming liberalism to be a mental disorder. A prominent psychiatrist, Dr. Lyle Rossiter noted that liberalism preys on weakness and feeling of inferiority by:
•creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization;
•satisfying infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation;
•augmenting primitive feelings of envy;
•rejecting the sovereignty of the individual, subordinating him to the will of the government.
Thanks Merv, but I’ll take a board-certified expert shrink’s opinion instead of yours.
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Since stated prefer professionals opinions…Here’s article from Pyschology Today claiming that conservatism is mild form of insanity.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/genius-and-madness/200809/is-political-conservatism-mild-form-insanity
It brings up interesting theory which is political conservatives have a need to hate something and be against something.
It actually does explain a lot. What see from conservative driven Republican party and the tea-nuts is are against something and hate Obama, liberals, democrats…blindly. The Republican party has become in fact not a party that stands for something but a party that stands against things.
You personally have displayed in this thread, a blind prejudice devoid of facts against the UAW and against anyone you feel is a liberal. Like your claiming liberalism is mental disease and embracing that concept and defending despite the fact that we’re not talking about an exact science. Pyschology is just theory.
It explains a lot for me because any neoconservative have debated, does not debate with reason and facts but with a blind prejudice void of facts. It has baffled me for years how anyone could cling to and defend adamantly a position or policy that is so utterly proven false and contrary even to that persons own best interest. Such as defending wealthy and corporate tax cuts that beyond any dispute do NOT create jobs. Yet despite the overwhelming mountain of evidence proving that as a falsehood, people still believed it and whole Republican party was willing to sink the ship to defend it.
It explains why some of the recent Republican tea-backed candidates come off as loonies. It explains why despite Republican policies that have put us in worst financial shape in a matter of few years ever been since great depression, that so many want to support the same policies to do it again.
The definition of insanity of course being repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting different results….which is really what the Republican party has been selling, that they’re going to do the same things that put us in this mess but this time it will fix the mess.
Again the article’s theory is that hate seems to be driving force in conservatism. I know not all conservatives are haters, but I do know all haters are conservative.
“Criticism is prejudice made plausible.”
H. L. Mencken
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This will be the most brief of any of my statements: You have not offered a single fact in any of your arguments.
Chew on that, slappy.
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slappy?
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I wonder if RoseT would sign a petition to stop the influx of union money into the political arena……
Methinks not.
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Wow. It is posts like yours that make me believe that there’s a future in selling tin-foil hats.
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Wow, characterizing people who support the middle class as being mentally ill and needing tin hats. You are fond of Google, I know. Please Google US Chamber and foreign money. You will see India, Bangalore, Dubai, Switzerland, etc, etc.
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No, I’m characterizing people as mentally ill if they think that there’s a massive conspiracy by global corporations to funnel money through the CofC for the express benefit of Republicans. And for what it is worth, the US CofC collects less than $100k in dues each year from foreign corporations, and clearly stated that the money wasn’t used for political purposes.
It should also be noted that Democrats raised over $1 million from the corporate PACs of foreign companies–over twice the amount raised by Republicans from those same entities. The AFL-CIO and Sierra Club also have foreign subsidiaries; based on your logic these groups are spending foreign money for campaign ads as well.
So let’s not pretend that this is solely a Republican issue. Once again: For a liberal argument, facts are poisonous.
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Go back and read the thread. I said I would sign a petition that excluded foreign money from US political campaigns. I really don’t understand your support for foreign money buying our political representation. You obviously cannot disprove the COC using foreign money. It is all a shell game. The corporations spend millions of dollars to manipulate the political and financial regulations in this country through lobbyists, PACs, and now even more with the Citizen United ruling. The question is why are you so afraid of individual Americans contributing to any cause? I don’t like the NRA, so I don’t contribute. I can contribute to the church offering. I can contribute to my office mate’s birthday present. If I don’t like the union, I am free to leave or be a “fair share” member. What do you care? Workers as individuals have no power to stand up for their rights against corporations who have millions in resources to manipulate their lives.
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Do you even know what the Citizens United case involved?
FYI: Foreign money is still banned from political campaigns contributions.
Citizens United struck down the ban on political advertising by corporations, unions and other entities immediately prior to an election. It also struck down the limitations on spending with regards to political advertising. Both are protected under the First Amendment as free speech.
Citizens United had nothing to do with foreign money, campaign contributions or money laundering.
Unions are made up of people. Corporations are made up of people. The NRA, ACLU and NARAL are all made up of people. Their right to free speech should not be curtailed. Ever.
I miss the good ‘ol days when true liberalism was synonymous with statements like, “I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
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