Spirit Lake tribe’s warning: Expect ‘far more severe’ consequences if nickname retirement work continues
October 13, 2011 at 4:53 am in Grand Forks Herald
In a statement released by the Committee for Understanding and Respect, which has been authorized by the Spirit Lake Tribal Council to speak for the tribe on the nickname issue, the committee warned UND, the state board, the NCAA and the Big Sky Conference to stop acting “against our honorable name as given to UND by our ancestors.” Continue Reading
When are people going to finally realize that the “hostile and abusive” forces are actually led by the NCAA and President Kelley? The NCAA and Kelley are ignoring the very same people they claim to be “protecting” against this so-called offensive name. Kelley is clueless and needs to resign, Shaft knows better but can’t decide which side to take, the NCAA is hypocricy at it’s finest and the people of North Dakota have had it with the whole bunch.
Fight On Fighting Sioux!!
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“you and your people”??
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Yes, you and your people. You know, nickname supporters. Wait, let me clarify that even farther: “nickname supports that want the nickname no matter what despite the harm it could cause UND.”
I had to clarify because I really like the nickname of Fighting Sioux. However, I understand this is a pointless battle that will only end up harming UND even farther. I would much rather see UND succeed at athletics than to keep a fricken nickname…
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I disagree that it is a “pointless battle”. Just because some people claim that it’s offensive, doesn’t mean that it really is offensive. Whatever happened to standing up for what you believe? Here’s something to think about…
Why is Spirit Lake fighting so hard to help UND keep the name if it’s offensive to the Sioux? The Spirit Lake Tribe is a Sioux Tribe. Why isn’t the NCAA interested in their feelings? I thought that’s what this was all about in the first place.
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Alright. Stand up for what you believe in, just as long as you shell out the $millions (and I’m not kidding, it would take millions) personally to fight the NCAA. I want none of that coming out of my tax dollars that I pay into the system. You are right, a majority of ND does like the nickname, but a majority of ND doesn’t want to pay for a fight that there is a good chance of losing against the NCAA. Most people agree it is better for UND if they were to just give in to the NCAA’s requirements and continue being the great D1 University they are turning out to be.
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BEJ: you need to catch up.
So which is it?
Is the name to be retired because it is “hostile and abusive?”
Or, is it to be retired because of some real or imagined “damage” to the University?
It would be a totally different scenario if the people of North Dakota and the University believed in the policy of the NCAA; that the manner in which the State and the University portray the Sioux Nation and the Native American imagery IS “hostile an abusive.”
If that were the consensus, that UND was doing harm to Native Americans; I would be the first to fight for the removal of the symbols.
The problem is, I don’t believe that is the case, and neither do most of the people that want to rid the school of the Sioux Imagery (Al Olson, Spectator, etc.).
These people are only interested in appeasing the NCAA. Not really an “honorable” position.
The question is NOT: Will the sanctions will hurt UND financially?
The question IS: Does the NCAA policy reflect how the people of North Dakota and the University really feel about how they have treated the Sioux Nation at the University of North Dakota?
I can respect those that fight because they believe the imagery is damaging to Native Americans.
Those that don’t believe the imagery is harmful, and want to change it anyway (to appease the NCAA)…they have no honor.
They deserve only contempt.
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well said. It’s about time people open their eyes and see what’s really going on. The issue isn’t the name here. UND should keep the Fighting Sioux and be done with it. It’s a good name and people like it. People would still call them the Sioux anyway. NCAA needs to be put back in it’s place, it’s way too powerful, they’re over stepping the line. And that’s the truth.
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Leah,
I agree that the NCAA is a bunch of thugs. My question: do you honestly believe we, as a state, have the power to do anything other than make a symbolic jesture of defiance?
The NCAA did not become what they are by accident. We made them what they are today. We, as a country, have no one to blame but ourselves.
They are too big, and too powerful, but as a quick google search will show, schools with big name programs and endowments in the BILLIONS of dollars have fought them and lost.
If we want to be Division 1 it is their way or the highway. There is no alternative. Sad but true.
For the record, I love UND hockey, I even sat next to Zach Parise in math, but if it would result in UND getting back on track, I would vote to close the athletic program down tomorrow. In the long run it might be the best thing that ever happened.
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Obviously there is an alternative path….i.e. Florida State Seminoles, Utah Utes, Illinois Illini, San Diego State Aztecs, Central Michigan Chippewa (successfully appealed the term “hostile and abusive” with consent of the tribe), Alaska Nanooks…to the best of my knowledge not one of these schools has to change their name. While I am not opposed to the name changing–this idea that the NCAA is fair about the issue is ridiculous–they are only about money and that is all.
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I have to give Spirit Lake a lot of credit on this. First of all, they as a people did the most basic AMERICAN thing they could regarding this issue. They let their people vote. The vote was quite clear that a large majority of their people see a great honor in their name and the school they gave that name too. Since the NCAA has decided political correctness and voice of the few supercede the voice of the masses, it is only those who gave this great university this honorable name who have any chance of saving it. I’ll admit I’m not a big fan of the NCAA. They are so full of it in my opinion. They make millions off athletes and get huge salaries while only allowing the athletes who make them their money enough to go to school on (scholarships); they say nicknames are demeaning and derogatory but if the university buys off a tribe to get them to say it’s ok then suddenly the demeaning and derogatory disappear; and they use their monopoly on college sports to make STATE GOVERNMENTS bow to their demands. So, it’s great to see that a majority of one tribe sees their name as the honor it was meant to be. Afterall, if nicknames really are demeaning and derogatory then what the 7734 are we doing allowing names such as Patriots, Roughriders, Fighting Irish, Minutemen, and the list goes on. Just because you’re not caucasian doesn’t mean honoring a university with your nickname is demeaning and derogatory!
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Sorry but they are simply to late. The time for Spirit Lake to take an aggressive stance on this was BEFORE the settlement with the NCAA was finished. They should have demanded a seat at the negotiation, which was more like a declaration from the NCAA, and spoken loud and clear then. i do not like this be it is simply to late to save the name.
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My thoughts exactly…..Good effort….But where was it when it was needed the most?
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Isnt there a law school at und? .. The FSU Seminols had to get permission from the Oklahoma Seminols as well as the Florida Band of Seminols. Ten minutes of web research will inform you that there are at least 7 federally recognized seperate nations of the ‘Sioux’. ..And more in the US..(not a complete history lession here) ..and to keep it simple we wont include our canadian Sioux frens to the north,(altho international court would). And they reside in Minnesota..Nebraska..South Dakota..and Montana. Wiki says there are 150,000+ of em. and spirit lake has 6677 enrolled. ..thats .045 % aprox. See..the NCAA is just being nice when it says at least get Standing Rock convinced of the ‘honor’ of being a mascot for UND. …It knows that there really…legally ..are many more Natives to convince. Black Cloud sounds pretty extreme to call for resignations over there and threaten severe consequences.. huh? wow Them NCAA educators know whats going on there in Grand Forks and the ND Govt. I mean the Governor was there at the meeting for h*lls sake! ..They may have been flabergasted at least or a lil taken back at the pleading permission for racism..they’ve seen it before but ND is the last holdout? I’m sure their wagging their heads dismayed .. as are alot of ppl…
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james, actually it’s 4.5%, not 0.045%.
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That’s funny, what’s to not like about that post? It’s a correction.
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People probably can’t do math
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maybe Black Cloud should actually put his cards on the table and outline the supposed consequences of retiring the name. Otherwise, it is probably safe to assume that any such consequences are pretty inconsequential.
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As a lifelong resident of Grand Forks, naturally I am a big fan of the Fighting Sioux…however, enough is enough. Just drop the name and lets move on. Would you rather not go to hockey and football games because no one will be allowed to play us? Lets just bow out gracefully instead of lose this inevitable fight.
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In other words “give up”. When the UND hockey team is down 1-0, do you just expect them to quit as well?
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Sometimes swallowing your pride is best. This is one instance.
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Most times it’s best to fight for what you believe in.
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But when it will cost people millions when people don’t want to spend millions on it, then it isn’t. By all means, if you want the nickname you can shell out the millions privately. I’m done with beating this dead horse.
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Lemme get this straight… They are threatening to sue UND if UND does not keep the nickname? How would that go through in court? I’m thinking something like this:
Frank Black Cloud: “UND won’t keep it’s name to honor us, despite the imminent threat to its’ athletic department.”
Judge: “Get over it.”
I’m sure all the legal jargon will make it sounds fancier, but I think this would paraphrase the case quite well.
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Also, why wasn’t anything done like, oh I don’t know, 4 years ago???
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Try like 10 years ago!
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I can’t see where the University needs Spirit Lake’s permission to make the change. Regardless of the NCAA actions, UND could change their athletic team’s name any time they want.
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SirVaeza:
Well actually…it is the law.
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Which is a law that is more than likely unconstitutional because it removes the power of the University/SBoHE to choose it’s nickname, which is written directly into the ND Constitution.
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This recent statement made by the Spirit Lake Committee for Understanding Respect should be printed in the Herald in it’s entirety for all to read. Has this statement been sent to all involved? If not, it should be.
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Having been the recipient of numerous threats in the course of my lifetime, i have one question: who actually believes the Spirit Lake Nation has the ability to do anything except talk? What power do they hold over UND, the State Board, the Big Sky Conference or the NCAA?
This was the most ludicris statement I have ever read. A word of advice: they really need to quit smoking/drinking at least eight hours before sitting down at the keyboard. These bozos are embarrassing.
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As a nickname supporter I’m asking myself what threat they could they throw out that would change the decision? Boycott UND???
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I initially just read the story. I just finished reading the whole communication. I threw up in my mouth a little. This statement read like the unibomber’s manifesto…rambling, incoherent,and devoid of reality. I stand by what I said earlier: embarrassing.
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Yes, I would agree, they are embarrassing as well as their desperate attempt to make money off the issue on their website. Their threats are comical and probably written by Fool Bear, who likes to make threats against anyone who disgrees with him. Who could forget the classic, “bombing” threat he made to the Standing Rock Tribal Council. Sad, sad this group is.
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I’ve said this before, this committee for understanding, unfortunately is becoming cartoonish. It’s really quite sad that they don’t seem to understand where to shout to. Again, if they were saying this to the NCAA they would at least be partially right, but they are not and appears they have comprehension difficulty, I’m sorry to say. Also, at this point in time they have they have already exhausted their time limit on this issue they should have been this demonstrative say about 30 years ago.
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Well you just blew a whole lot of steam for absolutely nothing…
Both individually and as a conference, members cannot undo the sanctions imposed by the NCAA.
NCAA ≠ Big Sky
Big Sky = Part of NCAA
The only good that can come from approaching the Big Sky is to MAYBE (this is a HUGE maybe) convince them to keep UND in the conference if it retains the name. The NCAA as a whole does not have the jurisdiction of booting UND from the conference, since the NCAA does not own the Big Sky. However, they can impose sanctions upon the Big Sky just as it did to UND, because it is a voluntary affiliate of the NCAA. In essence, it wants to be in the NCAA’s clubhouse, and the NCAA can set whatever rules it wants upon members that want in.
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It’s their club. They can do as they please. If you do not like it, don’t join it. It’s not a Government program that everyone is entitled to. It’s an organization that was put together in an attempt to make college athletics more popular and more profitable. It worked. Now everyone wants in on it because being a part of the NCAA has proven to be highly beneficial to participating schools. If you do not think the pros outweigh the cons, then suggest to Kelly that UND go NAIA… I, personally, would think UND would be a dominant force in NAIA, yet a laughingstock because it came down to that…
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NCAA is made of members.
UND is a member.
If they don’t like how the NCAA treats them, then they can leave.
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This statement from the Spirit Lake Tribe is huge. They consider the “Fighting Sioux” name and the use of the Native American in the logo to be a “gift.” Any reasonable person can see they consider the continued attack on UND’s use of the logo and nickname to be offensive.
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Actually, Always- the Big Sky is made up of member institutions which belong as members of the NCAA- but the conference itself just like the WCHA or any conference for that matter is it’s own entity. So no the Big Sky is not the NCAA. Each individual institution that belongs- but how many Big Sky institutions were on the NCAA committee that formulated the policy on Native American nicknames? Answer me that Always–I bet you don’t know. I’m waiting. I’m betting you won’t answer the question Lakes or I mean Always but you’ll respond without actually answering it.
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Well, actually, the Big Sky does affiliate itself as part of the NCAA. It is for this reason that member schools are part of the NCAA as well. If they did not have that affiliation, they would not be allowed to receive autobids for the NCAA tourny’s.
However, they do not have any power to juristic NCAA sanctions… But if the NCAA recommends they add additional sanctions, they can if they so choose.
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As a side note, I gave Goran a thumbs down because The Professor < Fry.
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Tom Miller tweet moments ago
tommillergf Herald needs a policy that you can’t comment on nickname stories online til you pass a test on understanding of the issue. 80 percent cutoff
I guess that means your out Always.
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Spirit Lake’s words are twisted while Standing Rock is not included in the discussion. If a meeting is necessary, it is will the SR Council.
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While we consider the behavior of 330k Kelley, Doug Fullocrap, and Grand Shafter…let us remember the words of a real leader:
“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”
Martin Luther King Jr.,
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Right now- where these people are standing, is exactly that “comfort & convenience” it’s easy at this moment to get your dander all about it. That sure seems easy to me. It would have taken great measure to go about this 5 years ago when challenge and controversy would have been at it’s strongest.
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Or option C) They probably realize the athletic and financial benefits to being a part of the NCAA and realize that a nickname is not worth trading those in.
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This is not related to the Trail of Tears at all. Do NOT compare the two. I have ancestors that had to march on that trail all the way from Virginia to Missouri and I find offense to you even thinking you can compare the two. The Cherokee had no choice but to march on the trail. They didn’t have the choice to just leave the Governments presence if they wanted to. There weren’t any petty sanctions if they chose to stay behind.
As a side note, why should the NCAA listen to someone that can’t even use the English language properly when they were born and raised in an English-speaking country?
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BEJ says:
“I have ancestors that had to march on that trail all the way from Virginia to Missouri”
and they were the lucky ones, the rest had to go all the way to Oklahoma.
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Yes because Oklahoma is only 5 miles away from where they had to go… I’m sure that 5 miles really were the key distance to survival on that trail… Give me a break.
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Always: you grow tiresome my friend. Usually I like to see you get all stirred up because it gives me something to do when I should be working. Today you need to double up your meds, you are out of control.
For argument sake lets say you are correct and the NCAA is putting pressure on the members conferences not to schedule UND. What are you going to do about it? What is your legal recourse?
As we said before, the NCAA is a private club; membership is voluntary. They can coerce their members to do or not do whatever they want to.
You keep bringing up all these tangential issues: who is and who isn’t racist; who is or who isn’t of an alternate lifestyle; who is or who isn’t paying enough attention to your side, but you have yet to tell me how you plan on changing the world and making it a better place for nickname fans. I’m not talking about blogging, what are you going to do that actually results in a change?
Nothing. Because you can’t. They hold all the cards and fair or not that is reality. When all is said and done they have won. Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. It never ends well.
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I don’t think that setting rules to your own club that can abolish hostile and abusive is despicable. i think a majority of people would agree…
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I have a headache from this whole mess, I really do. The Committee needs to understand a couple things here:
1: The NCAA and Big Sky conference didn’t sit down and talk with you because you’re not a member school. Yes, you provided the nickname and logo to use, but you’re still not a member school, nor do you represent one. Hence, why it would be inappropriate for them or the Big Sky to sit down to talk with you. The issue concerns UND getting its ducks in a row. Now if UND and/or the State Board didn’t try to work with you, you’d have a case. However, they did. Therefore, you have no case.
2: It doesn’t matter what ceremony, law, ordinance, edict from heaven, etc. transpired to grant the use of the name and logo from your tribe/band: it’s an all-or-none game with the NCAA. Either UND gets permission from ALL namesake tribes, or it agrees to drop the name. You gave us the go-ahead – thank you. Standing Rock didn’t, therefore it doesn’t matter how many other bands/tribes approved it: if even ONE did not approve it, then it’s a dead issue and the name gets changed. It seems you’re not understanding this.
3: Since it is an all-or-none game, your wrath SHOULD be directed at the tribes/bands that DIDN’T give UND their approval for the use of the nickname/logo. Blaming UND and the SBHE for “not working with you” is like blaming the bullet for not hitting the target – it has no basis in reality. Unfortunately, you’ve picked UND and the SBHE as your scapegoat, and seem to have a vew of “don’t bother me with the facts of the case, I’m going after the easy target.”
4: Telling us there will be “consequences far more severe than anything the NCAA could do” kinda sounds like a threat. Those are frowned upon in this day and age. If you take UND and the Board to court, (presumably the law will have already been repealed) not only would it take you at least several months if not a couple years to get the matter settled), the Judge would most likely look at you as if you’re from Mars and tell you to get lost.
5: You did give us the name in ’69, as well as reaffirmed that in ’00 and ’09. For that you have our thanks. However, the nature of a gift is that it is given to someone with no expectation of return. Sure, it hurts your feelings if the receiver doesn’t use it or exchanges it, but it wasn’t yours anymore: that’s why it’s called a “gift” instead of a “loan.” You claim to value diversity, yet slam your cultural and religious beliefs in our faces as if they’re the only game in town. Isn’t that rather intolerant?
Okay, I’m done for now.
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Wow. You just out-did yourself. I will pay you five internet dollars if you can go 24 hours without insulting someone/some group that doesn’t agree with you.
NOW we’re done, jack.
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So that means that UND and/or the SBoHE can call the FBI on the Legislature because they removed its right to chose its own nickname (which is written in the ND Constitution) right?
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Zach says:
“So that means that UND and/or the SBoHE can call the FBI on the Legislature ”
Couldn’t tell you,
but you might want to look at the reference in this document reference the Supreme Court.
“The United States Supreme Court recognizes the Pipe Ceremony in modern terms as a binding contract and a religious act. When the Pipe is shared and used in our ceremonies, its use holds a highly coveted respect by all who are present. It is our word; it is binding. At the 1969 Ceremony at UND, President Starcher was made an honorary Chief, and the Sioux conferred the use of their name and likeness into perpetuity.”
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Always: The US Supreme Court has also ruled on more than one occassion that the NCAA is a private club who can require what it likes from its members (within the limits of the law of course). Member schools who have sued the NCAA – including USC and other big name, multi-billion dollar endowed schools – have all lost.
The pipe ceremony may mean UND can use the name, the catch is only if it wants to. You see, it does not want to because the NCAA does not want it to. The NCAA trumps pipes. Plain and simple.
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Taken Alive (nickname opponent) WINS and Fool Bear (nickname supporter) LOSES bid to get on the SR Tribal Council – hmmm guess SR gets to speak – and they still say NO to nickname! Wonder what new threat Fool Bear will come up with now.
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A link to what grandforkian is referring –
http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/218284/
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Why doesn’t Spirit Lake go after those tribes that feel offended by the name? Such as, oh, let’s say, Standing Rock? Why aren’t other tribes sending letters to various people/groups threatening them? Spirit Lake must be the only tribe that represents the Sioux Nation.
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I should clarify a little – I agree that Spirit Lake absolutely has every right to be pissed about what is happening. But they aren’t the only Sioux tribe. Why should they be the only one whose voice is heard?
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What the hell does this have to do with anything even remotely close to the topic at hand? Is someone trying to kidnap, sexually abuse, or kill another person? I am now convinced that you throw things at the wall hoping that something sticks.
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Question?????? Isn’t this university suppose to be about “higher education” ? since when has hockey become “higher education”? I think that I would attend the UND for an education, not because of the hockey program… When did sports become the main reason to attend a college? My point? We are being held hostage by a bunch of people that consider sports more important than the reason people attend college… The Sioux nation considers this an honor… who are the sport (NCAA) nitwits to determine this pc stuff anyways? If the Sioux consider it an honor so be it! Leave it and let’s put the sports program where it belongs… a good competition between schools, not a politcal agenda.
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I am proud of and love the Fighting Sioux nickname, but there always has been some American Indians that have been offended by actions of others related to name that have caused huge controversies. Like a GF Herald article explained about 4 years ago… back in the 90′s native americans were offended when a fraternity float was doing the “tomahawk chop” (because it was popular with the Atlanta Braves at that time) or another school with a cowboy mascot lassoed an Indian. There were a few more instances that I can’t remember, but the point is these caused a huge controversy and UND can not be held responsible for what other people or other schools do. The NCAA’s decision was probably made from the negative instances of the past and the few that adamantly complained. If the name changes UND and the NCAA will not have to put themselves in these situations. That is something that has been learned over the years of having the Fighting Sioux nickname.
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If Spirit Lake had put this effort into getting the Standing Rock to agree years ago, none of this would be an issue.
They had their chance and they missed it. Move on.
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The NCAA educators are doing just fine, thank-you…in abiding by and following their own anti-discrimination/racism policies. ..The Precedential of this issue is progressing right along nicely, thank-you. If the laws wern’t moving foward in enforcement ..then more of the Sioux tribes would have to be more involved . ..See ..thankfully we dont have to come to the same low sink of debauchery (AL Carlson and his croonies) and just let the laws do what they do.
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Captain: The Standing Rock crowd has held two separate elections since the NCAA’s ruling. In both cases the Tribe elected anti-nickname council members. If they wanted the nickname, they would have voted for the pro-nickname candidate.
Standing Rock may have held a sacred ceremony in the late 1960s. What is clear is that since the 1980s the Standing Rock tribe has been against the use of the name. Their actions are consistent with that belief.
The Spirit Lake guys are all about how a sacred ceremony is binding upon future generations of the tribe. I wonder if they would feel the same if they were against the name. Under our form of government, one generation cannot force another generation to accept its verdicts. The law allows for change. In the US and in the Tribe.
The people of Standing Rock chose to reject the views of their elders. It is their right. If you look at Native American history you can find quite a few examples of a younger generation of chiefs nullifying the edicts of past elders. Their culture is no more stagnant than anyone else’s.
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Anti-Trust:
Competition law, or antitrust law, has three main elements:
prohibiting agreements or practices that restrict free trading and competition between business. This includes in particular the repression of free trade caused by cartels.
banning abusive behavior by a firm dominating a market, or anti-competitive practices that tend to lead to such a dominant position. Practices controlled in this way may include predatory pricing, tying, price gouging, refusal to deal, and many others.
supervising the mergers and acquisitions of large corporations, including some joint ventures. Transactions that are considered to threaten the competitive process can be prohibited altogether, or approved subject to “remedies” such as an obligation to divest part of the merged business or to offer licenses or access to facilities to enable other businesses to continue competing.
Where is the Department of Justice on this? Current Lawsuits against the NCAA:
1. Ed O’Bannon
2. Big 12
3. Bill Russell
4. Former And Current NCAA Football Players
These 4, out of a long list, all involve “anti-trust”. The NCAA has typically settled and paid-off the litigants, in the millions to 100′s of millions of $$$’s.
I also find it ironic how the Fighting Sioux debate has turned: for decades, the Taken Alive – Horse is Thunder – Jeanotte – Ganje – & their ilk, attacked UND. Now, they are looking to “protect” UND from NCAA sanctions?!?!?! If it all wasn’t so sad, I would laugh.
Again, I do hope that that SL does win control over the logo, as there will be market that will outlast any of the posters, on either side of the issue, forever.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Don:
The NCAA has been sued under anti-trust statutes. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court. The NCAA won. The NCAA is not a public entity. It is private. As such, it can set its own rules. As long as it accepts no government dollars (which it does not), it can do what it pleases.
The NCAA is a legal monopoly (a phrase that still sticks in my craw) like the NFL, NBA, NHL, etc.
As has been repeated ad nauseum, neither the state of North Dakota or the Spirit Lake Tribe have any recourse other than leaving the NCAA for another collegiate sport group.
All of the blustering on this board is just the dying gasp of a losing argument. UND can keep the nickname and stay in the NCAA. That is an option. If it does it will be marginalized and a non entity within a decade. Trust me, Zack Parise or Jonathan Towes would not have chosen UND if there was no chance of going to a championship game, and if we are marginalized our last trip to the frozen four will be our last trip.
UND could also drop collegiate sports all together, turn the Ralph into a bingo hall or rent it to the Parks Board, and still survive: but not in a form we would recognize. As much as I hate this fact, athletics account for millions of dollars a year into the school budget. No one wants to lose that.
They (athletics) also account for millions of dollars a year in revenue for local businesses. They (local businesses) will fight its loss tooth and nail. Why do you think 80% of North Dakota likes the nickname, but the 20% in GF and the surrounding area want to see it gone.
You can decry the lack of honor all you want, but trust me, people will vote with their wallet 99% of the time. “Its the economy stupid.”
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“As has been repeated ad nauseum, neither the state of North Dakota or the Spirit Lake Tribe have any recourse other than leaving the NCAA for another collegiate sport group.”
Should have read this closer before hitting send. The NCAA could care less about the State of North Dakota or the Spirit Lake Tribe. They are not member schools.
If the State of North Dakota wants to make a stand, it can use the power of the purse to force UND to go one way or the other. The Spirit Lake tribe has no power under any scenario… completely impotent. Viagra anyone?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The difference is that member schools sign up to be in the NCAA. They agree to contracts put out by the NCAA.
Competing businesses typically do not sign any contracts with competitors laying out who is in charge of the collective group. That is what this law is for. It is for monitoring what you have stated above. The NCAA doesn’t apply because if member schools disagree, they can just pay the contract termination fee and back out. Businesses can’t do that. There is no “out” for a business if a competitor price-targets them.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but UND was in the NCAA long before the NCAA threatened sanctions if UND didn’t change the Sioux name that the NCAA did not find offensive when UND first joined. It’s a name, not an abusive or hostile act. I don’t like a lot of people’s names, but that doesn’t give me the right to fire or reduce pay to my employees if they don’t change their names.
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Joe,
UND is not an employee. It is a member of a private club. Club rules change.
Think of it this way: 4 years ago the American people decided to change administrations, and since elections have consequences, a lot of how business in the United States is done changed. It does not matter if you thought the old way was fine; new administration = new way of doing business.
The same thing happened at the NCAA. New management, new Board of Governors, new rules.
Things change. We can always leave. We are not victims.
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You are correct. It wouldn’t give you the right to fire them. However, the NCAA does not have the same rights as an employer, nor does an employer have the same rights as the NCAA. If you fired a person for their name, it would be discriminatory. The NCAA can do what they want because different rules apply to clubs than to places of employment. Also, UND cannot be treated like your “employee” because it is not a person. Again, there are differences in the rights of each.
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Yikes! Call out the cavalry. I’m glad the Air Base is between us and Spirit Lake! Really, I sincerely appreciate their efforts but they come far too late in the game. They ought to be working with Standing Rock for a total approval of use of the name and we all know that’s not going to happen. Let’s not resort to threats either. It isn’t needed and won’t help relations. Legislature and Governor. Get off your asses and reverse your mistake.
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The harm to the state is not from keeping the nickname or not keeping the nickname. The harm to the state is letting this issue remain unresolved for so many years. The lack of political leaders, with cojones, who could have and should have stepped forward years ago to resolve the issue within a reasonable amount of time is woeful. The issue is divisive and invidious, pitting white folks against white folks, white folks against native Americans, and native Americans against native Americans. We’ve got bigger fish to fry, so let’s put this issue to bed and move on.
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A nickname is not a civil right Always. Nice try but non applicable. A nickname is a marketing tool. A form of protected (if trademarked) identification. It is not a right.
Points for trying though
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Something messed up: A nickname is not a civil right. Your argument is non applicable. …
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Then if there truly is a contract between the Sioux and UND, then UND should honor it and drop out of the NCAA. It is not the NCAA’s problem that UND signed a contract with the SIoux… This is what the situation you bring up is like:
Kid 1 agrees to go to Kid 2′s house next Friday night.
Next Thursday night comes around and Kid 1 forgets to do his chores.
His mother proceeds to ground him to the house for the weekend for failing to do his chores.
Then Kid 1 proceeds to argue, “But moooommmm, I told him I would come over Friday night.”
What do you think the mother would say?
I’m pretty sure she would say, “Not my problem…” or something along those lines.
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There is no contract. It was a ceremony that granted permission (by ONE of many tribes) to use the name. You can whine that it was a contract, you can whine that it was “in perpetuity,” you can whine that you’re not getting your way. It was not a contract, a gift can be returned or permission rescinded, the logo and name are going away. Stop being an ignoramus and put on your big boy pants and STOP WHINING, because you are anything but alwayscorrect.
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A legally binding contract? Because I’m pretty sure that’s all that matters.
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A Notre Dame sporting event has nothing to do with celebrating Irish heritage.
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The first sentence describes an event that is unlikely to occur in the future, if the name is retained.
However, if it does then Notre Dame would be celebrating the ethnic roots of its founders and has had a consistent message of celebrating that Irish heritage since the founding of the institution, including being a welcoming place for students of Irish ethnicity. So, for your scenario to make sense, you must be contending that the Sioux nation founded UND and that the university has been consistent in celebrating actual Sioux heritage since its founding, including being a welcoming place for students of Sioux ethnicity. I guess that I missed the part about the Sioux nation being instrumental in the founding of UND. Maybe you should tell Standing Rock about that part of UND’s history. They would surely come around if they only knew that part.
Earlier you commented that you are not a lawyer. You have a tremendous grasp of the obvious.
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I didn’t realize the Sioux were the founders of UND. Well that changes things. Thanks.
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Spirit Lake says their position is thus:
“The United States Supreme Court recognizes the Pipe Ceremony in modern terms as a binding contract and a religious act. When the Pipe is shared and used in our ceremonies, its use holds a highly coveted respect by all who are present. It is our word; it is binding. At the 1969 Ceremony at UND, President Starcher was made an honorary Chief, and the Sioux conferred the use of their name and likeness into perpetuity. Not even we can rescind this gift. Definitely not UND, nor the NCAA, and most certainly not an ill-conceptualized agreement between the two of you.”
So, the way I see it, and you can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to say that a contract (recognized by the Supreme Court) was entered into between the Sioux and UND. That this contract obligates the UND to use the name and likeness of the Sioux at the University in PERPETUITY.
So, it would seem, that even if the University wanted to use a different mascot, they would first have to void the contract with the Sioux. Otherwise, the Sioux would have redress in court.
Now UND wants to keep the name, (and there is no reason not to) except for sanctions and punitive action by the NCAA.
This punitive action falls into the category aforementioned as a violation of “Civil Rights.”
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A. Keyes says:
“There is no contract.”
Well…the Spirit Lake Sioux and the Supreme Court would disagree….but…
I am sure you are right.
Yeh.
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Of course I’m right, because you’re not. A gift, you called it, then a contract. So, which is it? A contract isn’t a gift; a gift is not a contract. I received the gift of a crockpot. That doesn’t obligate me to use it. You keep saying the SC says it’s a contract. Bring out the law. How does it apply in this case? How does it apply when the ceremony only involved one tribe? That’s like saying the U.S. Congress has passed a bill because three representatives from Texas said that’s they way they want it. You’re pathetic, and yet you keep embarassing yourself.
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Don’t blame me for your ignorance….learn to read.
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And yet you can’t answer simple questions. That proves who is ignorant.
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alwayscorrect: you are likely the most thick-headed poster ever. I’m going to try penetrate your numbskull regarding the Fighting Irish. If you don’t get it, I promise not to respond to your future idiocy. Picture Ireland, 1870, the Native Americans occupy Ireland, completely change the Irish people’s lives, turn them from hunting irish to “Fighting Irish” because the Native Americans are attacking them. Then, the Native Americans move them to reservations. Don’t you get it, the fighting Irish is cute. It’s bar fighting, for crying out loud. The Fighting Sioux weren’t fighting until your righteous ancestors attacked them. My God, you need to find a fight you can win. I vowed to not respond to your stupidity for a week. It’s been 6 days, but I can’t stand it any more, Murphy. Take a break!
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And don’t forget the ‘killing Bison’ part. Or in this case should be say sheep….of ‘Dublin State University’? You know, the real origin of the nickname.
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