Union seeks to resume negotiations with American Crystal
October 10, 2011 at 6:11 am in Grand Forks Herald
New union proposals to offer ‘substantial’ movement, labor spokesman saysThe union representing 1,300 locked out American Crystal Sugar Co. workers plans this week to contact the federal mediator assigned to the case to request a negotiating session with company management – an attempt to end a lockout that has stretched on for more than 70 days.
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Even if these two can come to an agreement, how do the union workers expect to go back to work after all of this? When you spend months saying rude things about people and shouting at people who go to their jobs every day, those people still remember. Its not like signing a contract erases those things.
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Actually I do not believe management is obligated to take any former workers back. Perhaps they will offer the more desirable workers a job. Why take back all the worders?
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workers?
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Please explain how long before the union rights end. What must transpire to end status as bargaining unit employees?
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I think don’t take any worker back that badmouthed amereican crystal, tell them to find another job. Only the ones that were of good nature, want to work get to return. Any worker not doing their job properly gets the boot. Right now if a worker is doing a poor job, all they have to do is get another to replace that worker.
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@ johnb,
I cannot find a way that can actually happen, but I would think that eventually all of the union employees would find other employment. The applicable laws that I have read seem to indicate no end specifically, but the ACS website shows an Iowa company that went on for almost a year.
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Justine thank you.
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Hey, that’s my line!
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you must be joking, rude comments indeed, what about the supposedly workers passing us on the picket line with there checks in the window and middle finger up at us, oh yes thats suppose to be ok, sorry that I mentioned thats didnt want to upset you’
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It’s a TOTAL misnomer for the union leadership (I use that word with extreme duress) to ‘negotiate’….they STILL don’t get it when ACS said ‘final offer’…there is NOTHING to negotiate folks!
Amazing the rank-and-file haven’t ditched these clowns yet.
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I think you are incorrect. ACS isn’t done negotiating. They are just done making contract offers. Hopefully this time the union will come with a complete counter offer, not a bunch of vague, let’s talk about drug testing and health care, as was reported after the Aug meeting. I believe that ACS is willing to negotiate and will give on some areas in their final offer. They just need the union to be more interested in negotiating then they are in spready negative propaganda against ACS.
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No I think ACS is willing to negotiate as long as the Union Leaders actually want to negotiate as well. But according the NLRB they weren’t negotiating. I mean they did even go back to the table once with a Federal Mediator.
But after this long, and the temporary employees proving they can make sugar, if I was in their shoes it would have to be some substantial concessions on the Union Leaders part.
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hello, could you tell me were you get those facts about the relief workers making sugar. I’m a locked out worker and we monitor the plants. As far as I can see, putting a loader into a ash pond, people getting hurt and not reporting them as hurt is not good business. I’ve seen a relief worker in Altru clinic and he could hardly walk. He was in a lot of pain. Most of the plants are not making good sugar as there are approximately 146 cars on the tracks (at the Drayton plant) loaded with remelt sugar.
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Ah,…yes their is. The $2,000 signing bonus is no longer needed since it was intrduced as a incentive for the July 30th contract signing. There’s no obviously BONUS for the shareholders to keep it in the ” final ” contract. There’s been too many others unforseen expenses, on the company, because of the work stoppage.
And really the only issue open for discussion or final resolution is the JOB SECURITY dispute. It should go to binding arbitration. Each sides agree to the arbitrator’s ruling. The company says the union workers job’s aren’t at stake. The union says they are. That’s why we all need to know which side has legitimate concerns here. Was the work rules issue a MISUNDERSTANDING or really a attempt to rid the union of power? ACS says one thing the union the others.
Wages and healthcare is something that could be re-opened? But after ACS has shown that the long term workers could, indeed, be replaced wages and healthcare might be lowered in any future contract package? Regardless the $2,000 bonus should be dropped.
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True.
rank and file should be tossed out. Only the best person for job should be able to move up. not just because someone was there longer than another. That is where u can improve performance, get the best reliable workers.
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As part of Crystal I would be protective of my own interests now. I’ve heard of too much sabotage and union people saying bad things about the company that would make me not want them to come back. I say open hiring to anyone, not just the union. Put an offer out to anyone that wants a job and see where that goes.
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I would not want any “bad attitude workers” back. The company does not belong to the former workers. It belongs to the farmer shareholders who need good workers who will not sabotage the company.
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Good luck to the members of the Union.. I hope your leadership is actually capable of coming to the table and negotiating in good faith.
If you are able to get your jobs back, you need to take a serious look at who is in your leadership positions. If you can get rid of them or change them out to someone who has a little more common sense I think that would be in your best interests.
From an outsider looking in, it is obvious that they didn’t have your best interests in mind when they suggested that you guys vote no on the contract. I seriously have not seen a bigger idiot than Mark Froemke.
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“I would hope that American Crystal Sugar and the union can sit down in an adult manner and discuss how we can end this lockout…” Using inflammatory statements such as this…”adult manner” is not how you start.
It amuses me how the union still thinks it has any leverage. Their statement implies they are doing ACS a favor by requesting a meeting then seeing how little they can actually propose to get management to move. After 70 days the union has zero leverage.
I am torn between wishing both sides actually compromise and end this thing, and hoping ACS sticks to its guns and offers no new deals. In case the union has forgotten, ACS is under no legal or ethical compulsion to offer the union anything. Since the beets are not rotting in the field, management has no real reason to even attend the meeting.
In this case, both sides drew lines in the sand. In the beginning, neither side was interested in reaching an agreement; now it just may be too late.
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I agree that as a company acsc should be skeptical of hiring back these employees that have spread so much hate and anger toward the company and the growers.
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If Crystal Sugar is operating at 100% capacity, why would they bother talking to the union? The union bluffed them, Crystal Sugar called them on it and there they stand… at the gate crying to be let back in.
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Because I do believe that ACS does care about the employees within their communities. I just don’t think they were going to allow themselves to be steamrolled by the Union Leaders. There is a difference.
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For PR, public relations. The union’s leader Risky is saying how workers have been left out in the cold while the shareholders are living the high life. PR
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I hope the two sides can come to an agreement and the union employees are able to go back to work. The company has filmed the picketers from day one. If the lock out ends some people may not be allowed back inside the factory. Others are on indefinite suspension right now because of various reason concerning the events before and after the lock out. Labor disputes are emotional and can bring out the worst in some people. This union doesn’t approve of bad behavior. They have asked their members from the first day to picket peacefully. Members have scolded other members on the line but some have behaved deplorably. Let’s just hope for a peaceful end to this. Let ACSC and the union work it out amongst themselves and not in the media. The media exploits both sides of this disagreement just to sensationalize the story.
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What would the employee do to cause this the company to do what you say here? “If the lock out ends some people may not be allowed back inside the factory. Others are on indefinite suspension right now because of various reason concerning the events before and after the lock out.”
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Well sexist or racial comments directed at ACS employees entering or leaving the company properties. If you’re not aware all picketing is, are, being recorded both audio and video. Do you think these union employees, c learly identifiable on recordings, can get away with screaming that someone is a slut or a monkey especially someone who was a co-worker or supervisor. Typically in any work stoppage there’s various union workers who are fired, after, for actions taken against others on the picket line.
Can you envision female workers, called sexist names, being forced to work with crude, union members who harrashed them for months as they entered the worksite? ACS would have to choose as to sexual harrashment lawsuits, by some femeal employees who were employed during the lockout, If they didn’t fire the offensive returning union workers.
Rest assured, there’s no free lunch and there’s no picket line amnesty. What happens in Vegas may stay in Vegas but what’s captured on tape of audio in Crookston or EGF and elsewhere, means some locked out workers will never be employees of ACS again. Actions have conseqences.
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As they should.
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There you go again Skatey! Always trying to stir up trouble, chuckle chuckle. But I agree with you and know that some dunderheads certainly aren’t coming back after their picket line behavior.
And to the comment below where the guy says “Those employees are locked out. They can say whatever they want when they aren’t at work…one would think that they would have a little thicker skin than that” That gives me yet another chuckle for the sheer gulibility of that statement. I’m for the locked out workers but not the obvious knuckleheads who embarrashed so many. The good Christain folk, kin the union, aren’t going to go for keeping the rable rousers on if it means their families suffer in trying to come back after this is all settled.
Skatey, did you see the ACS operatives have taken over the comments section over at the Crookston Daily Times? They even handed Brewster his lunch. He called them obscene names and hasn’t been heard of since. Quite the yucks in these bleak times.
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tj, I agree with you. Hopefully things get worked out sooner than later because of the effect it is having on our conmmunities and the majority of the workers represented by the union. With that being said, I hope members that have done things are not allowed back and are held accountable. This is an unfortunate deal but as it drags out it becomes more evident that ACS has tried to work with the union and the union has been the one unwilling to bend. I am going to be biased, but I do feel that the union has hurt the workers and the company by telling lies to anger everyone involved. As I have stated earlier, use the power of a union when the workers are truly being wronged, not in a situation like this!
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George: if you were the company and i was the union we would have come to an agreement along time ago. I like the truth from everybody, period. I don’t like name calling either from anyone. It gets in the way of doing business. Good luck to everybody. Let’s end this thing, become friends again, and get on with our lives.
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Well said George!!
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Paul,
How do you know this about the factories? Please don’t tell me your cousins mother’s best friends brother who is married to a mechanic who has been working at ACS either. The truth will come out at the end. I am confident in Mr. Berg and the B.O.D. we have elected. The NLRB ruling went along with what management has been saying all along which gives me little reason to believe there is alot of misleading coming from above.
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Livewire you and your union have lost the PR battle. Accept these facts, you have little sympathy in your local community and ACS is functioning without its former employees. I do not see the company begging any of you to come back to work. Reality you gave up a great job and ACS is not obligated to take everyone back??
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Livewire, give it up and get a life, and a job. You and your union have lost big time on this one.
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livewire, I never said the union was negotiating in bad faith, what I commented was that ACS made it known to the growers that they were cooperating with negotiations and the union was not interested. That is a fact, as proved by the NLRB. Here is the difference between me and you, my BOD is directly affected by this, if I am out of business, so are they. Your leadership, on the otherhand, is still getting paid, does that not bother you in the least? Your leadership shows up for a day and talks about political parties and gets you all pissed off. I didn’t read a whole lot in the Herald article discussed about YOUR situation here at ACS. I think I would really start to questions your leaderships motives……..
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Paul, Why is it that we call the locked out union workers as the “the employees” and the workers from Strom the “replacement workers” I think it is TIME we start calling the union workers as “the former employees” and the Strom workers “the employees”.
imo the current employees have it just a little harder than the former employees. What i mean by this is that the current employee have to fix the sabotage that the former employees did before the lockout. So if the factories are running not as smooth as the former employees had it going, its probably the cause of the former employees and not the current employees.
Do you know exactly what was said at the shop meetings? Do you know ACSC break even points and where their profits are? I doubt it…… so please don’t indicate that you think you know something that you don’t.
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Anon,
The replacement workers are just that.
Here’s a quote from the website of the Minnesota Office of the Revisor of Statutes on private sector labor relations:
“Once a strike or lockout is in progress, it is an unfair labor practice for an employer to willfully and knowingly use a professional strikebreaker to replace employees involved in a strike or lockout at a Minnesota business. Similarly, an employer cannot offer a person permanent employment for performing bargaining unit work during a lockout or strike.”
Here’s a quote from Strom Engineering’s website:
“Permanent Versus Temporary Replacements
In the United States, under federal labor law, an employer may only hire temporary replacements during a lockout – not permanent replacements. An employer may legally hire permanent replacements during a strike, unless it is an unfair labor practice (ULP) strike. If the company hires permanent replacement workers anyway, and unfair labor practice (ULP) charges are upheld, the company can be penalized and federal contracts can be cancelled.”
Your opinion that all the problems are caused by sabotage is just that, an opinion. It’s based on lies told by the company so if you choose to believe it go ahead.
Dave Berg held up the union handbook at a shop meeting and announced that this was the problem. He stated that the company had to get rid of the union. This was witnessed by the spouse of an employee who was attending the meeting. Again you believe whatever you choose, truth be damned.
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Paul I have spoken to several farmers, some that sided with the union before these shop talks with the CEO. Many believed that the company took to strong a hand with the union. But after a little time and some information you can find on the ACS website, their minds soon changed. A matter of fact they still feel for the union employee’s they just believe now that this hasn’t been about insurance, drug testing, money, or job security, this is about a powerful entity, (The Union) loosing power and more importantly MONEY. You have a union rep, in Mark Froemke that is a admitted Communist, who doesn’t believe in, and like to get rid of capitalism in the United States.
My opinion and what I have heard from many other people, this whole thing is about Mark Froemke sticking it to a big Corporation, and the Union trying to save what is left of their gravy train.
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Paul:
Your assertion that production is down, accidents are up, and maintenance has increased over past years is without a doubt true. We have discussed this before. The bean counters took all this into account before the decision to lock the workers out was made. ACS determined that even though profits would be less, the long term benefit of their actions was worth it. The decrease in production and the decreased profits are simply costs of doing business.
In the end, the beets are not rotting in the fields, and even though production is marginal, it is still enough to keep the lights on and the growers happy. If it were otherwise you would have seen management asking for a new round of negotiations.
There is no doubt ACS will take a hit, but because their pockets are much deeper than the average union worker, they will win any war of attrition, and make no mistake, that is what this is.
It is cold and completely cruel, but early last year ACS decided to starve the union out if they rejected management’s final offer. As far as I can tell it is working.
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wrong wrong wrong…..The union couldn’t keep their mouths shut about their evil plan to walk Nov 1st and hold all the cards in negotiations. Now they have received a taste of their own medicine and finding that even their national leadership will hang em out to dry just as fast.
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If the company thought that the union was going to strike, they would have been morons to lock them out. They could have hired permanent replacements instead of the very expensive temporary workers they have now. Technically, they can’t have a lock-out to break the union. They may have been worried about a slow down, but with the stellar management at ACS, why would that worry the company?
But the union never held all the cards in the negotiation, in my humble opinion.
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Winston Cooper??? Hello…You out there??? I am just waiting to hear what you have to say on this..I mean your spin on this? Oh I hope for one of U rah rah cheers of support!!! Sugar cookies for EVERYONE!!!
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AmericanBlue,
I was wondering the same thing, WHERE IS WINSTON COOPER???
Is ACSC caving like you predicted??
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His profile lists Falls Church Virginia as his home. He was posting hourly when the top union thug was here. Perhaps there is a connection?
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Why would “those workers” want to come back…they are telling EVERYONE how crappy it is to work at ACSC!! Why oh why would they ever want to come back?!?!
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On the line, streets, taverns, and at their new places of employment is where they mutter these things.
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Letters to the editor have been a steady stream of union folks bemoaning the fact that they have to work some holidays, miss school programs, ect. They should try farming.
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It is true that MN and ND farmers usually get to relax on Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter. It is also true that ACS employees usually get to relax on Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor Day. Plus they get paid 2.5 times their hourly rate when they work a holiday. Now the union is asking for 3 times their hourly rate. Oofda. http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/bctgm.proposal.pdf
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But but but.. we were told it wasn’t about money.. If you take a look at it.. Almost everything in their proposal equates down to dollars and cents.
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No one said that it wasn’t about money at all. Of course it is about ALL of the disputed items, but even the company acknowledges that the union is worried about job security.
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Or the vast majority of other jobs that are out there. Even places that are “family friendly” will still require you to work holidays, weekends and evenings.
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Obama really doesn’t want an economic recovery because he wants everyone to answer to the Federal Government. He’s trying to amplify the class warfare, social inequality statements that he is trying not to say. It’s not the river’s surface that will take you but the undercurrent. The union as well doesn’t want an agreement because they want the employee to answer to them. Every union and company in the country is watching this impasse so they must save face in order to reach an agreement. I hope both sides figure this out.
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It has nothing to do with being “thick skinned”. Saying and making derogatory statements is/should not be tolerated whether you are working or not! Employees that do not show respect for the company they work for at ant time need not be employed.
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Justine Jones,
KGB? Wouldn’t they work for Froemke, the communist/union leader?
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ACS should offer to take them all back at minimum wage, health insurance where workers have a $5000 deductible and pay 90% of the total bill after that, build PTO at the rate of 1 week per year and a no strike stipulation. And each worker has an automatic payroll deduction until all fire damage is paid off. And they can be terminated for talking about rats and monkeys.
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and before you try to make me seem like the bad guy, i have dealt with labor disputes on each side of the table. what is happening now is hurting all involved, caused by all involved, and must be delt with by all involved. its almost like what the civil war was like, friends,neighbors and family against each other.
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I don’t have to try to make you seem like a bad guy. You are doing an adequate job all by your lonesome. As long as you remain one of the unthinking union sheeple, you don’t have any chance at all of attaining enlightenment. Or a job.
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I should think you would be better served by taking up a collection for your family that isn’t eating because of you and your kind. It must cost you sleep at night knowing your kids are getting picked on at school and your soon to be ex-wife has been drawing up divorce papers the moment you walked out on your good paying job.
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no kids at home–we are near retirement age–money in the bank—no bills–no worries—and i’m a woman. You are wrong once again.
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Then why are you crying for the former union workers? What stake do you have in it? Or is it just to get some attention from anonymous strangers on a chat site that you don’t get from your husband? You just wanted to jump on me to feel that you belong because you identify with another broad? What is it?
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Isn’t attention what you want? I mean come one now, the name, the photo taken when you looked your best, hahahahaha! I’m sure many of us will be celebrating your birthday at the end of the month. Now take a joke and move on….
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Most jobs that are “family friendly” do not pay as well as the 24/7 jobs.,, just sayin.., you just deal with it because you like your job..,
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Tj… If farming is so great why aren’t you a farmer?!? Farmers work holidays. Their days are not 9-5. If crops are bad or the prices are low they are the ones taking all the risk. Rain snow drown out replant.. The list of worries go on. They pay their own labor landlords machinery operating expenses and if the crop isn’t there they have to borrow more… Tj you show up to work at a job you obviously hate and get paid no matter what. The ascs and the farmers who own it don’t need you and you negativity. For that matter neither does the union!!
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Dead, please do not talk down to me like a 5 year old. i am not in any union and have a decent paying job. I have been expressing things from my EXPERIENCES. not regurgitating propaganda that has been stuffed down my throat. and please tell me what business you own so i make sure i avoid it like the plague.
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@Scooter:
He just says that to rile up the troops. It is sad that anyone can give those things a thumbs up. Don’t take it personally. On this blog alone, I commented mostly about the legal fact that these employees can’t just be fired for a long, long time. Thumbs down. Totally factual. It really only matters if they are pro or anti union.
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Yo Marge…good points all! That “Brewster” dude you mention, is he a real person or a ‘plant’ by your local high school news rag to play the ‘village idiot’?….
He does a good job with that part!
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Slanderous (punishable by law!!).
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Hard to prove that what was said in the parking lot of a sugar beet plant would harm anyone’s reputation. So, then proving slander might be difficult too?
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Justine then work without hiding behind the coat tails of the union. You might think more of your boss/employer if you actually had to adhere to company conduct!! But oh ya you have seniority…
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You make a lot of assumptions:
1. That I am in a union–I am not.
2. That I have been in one long enough to have earned seniority–still have none.
3. I am not management–I am the ‘boss’
4. I do not adhere to my company’s code of conduct–wrote much of it, adhere to most of it too.
Can’t I just be someone who reasonably thinks that the clearly biased and anti union comments on this blog are wrong?
I will assume that you are not a nurse since most of them are in a union. What is your role in this dispute?
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Justine I may disagree with your posts but find myself giving you thumbs up.
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Likewise.
Great discussion from some people.
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You are assuming I’m making assumptions about you. Can’t I just be someone who reasonably thinks that the clearly biased and anti-corporate comments on this blog are wrong. Employees and their unions need to take some responsibility. We need companies to generate jobs.
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lol. Yep, and they are doing a piss-poor job of it too.
Corporations have failed to create jobs (and wealth for Americans) for decades while at the same time attempting to maximize profits for a few. At the same time, our government, claiming to be capitalistic provides bailouts rather than letting corporations fail (as they would if we were truly capitalists)
The funny thing here is that we are discussing ACSC which is as close to a socialist company as exists in America. They run outside of the rules of supply and demand by utilizing a government program which regulates the prices of a commodity.
Please spare me the discussion on hating corporations. Tell me when you have found a corporation running under the rules of capitalism, please.
I have read very few anti-corporation comments here, but rather disagreement regarding compensation.
(BTW: You did address the comment specifically to me)
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Because “the spouse of an employee” would never spread malicious tumors during a lockout!!!!
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That’s your best answer TJ. Or did you have to look it up in the union manual?
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Point being that it is a rumor….and yes rumors become like cancerous tumors and spread uncontrollably (metaphorically speaking)
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Well TJ we all have grandparents just like yours that may feel farming has softened but they will also tell you our workforce has too.
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Jeff, Stop your complaining, sign up for work at walmart. 78 bucks a month is nothing compared to the 160 u waste on union dues each month.
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What do you do for a living Jeff H? What do you contribute to the rest of the country?
You know nothing of what you speak of. If you are talking about this B.S. wall street protest as being your revolution good luck. Most of those people don’t even know what they are protesting.
If you would take the energy you use being jealous of other people, and feeling sorry for your pathetic self, and use it on a career, you may someday with some hard work, which you will have to work on too, have the things you see everyone else having.
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In my opinion, this labor situation is already resolved. Mr. Berg and team are the winners.
This is like election night and Duane Sand doesn’t want to concede until after the polls are closed.
Attention union: the polls are closed. It is time to concede. You can drag it out as long as you want but the outcome will be the same.
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Berg out?…I don’t think so. Just wishful thinking by ‘Scooter” and his union comrades and propaganda machine.
Whatever happened to ‘thinking for yourselves’?
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All the union cares about is getting their money. They don’t care about the unemployed workers.. they got their money so they can have their million dollar parties in denver, washington and giving their big wheels big paychecks that you worked for, they just fork in…
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Oofda:
Why should they quit now? According to many of these blogs and the still low unemployment rate, many people have found new jobs; why not just let the company suffer and continue to pay the high cost of temporary employees?
When this whole thing started, I had a friend who used to live in Crookston say that this could really hurt that city. She said that would be exactly what they deserve. That is the same thing that I see from nearly every person on this blog. I hope that truly every greedy person involved in this dispute gets exactly what they deserve. And if the farmers, union members, company or community suffer, well, then, that is probably exactly what they deserved.
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Justine,
I honestly feel that the people suffering the most are the union employees that still would like to work for ACS. I know of several that remain unemployed.
Except for some factory management putting in extra time, I don’t think that ACS is suffering much. And as time goes by, I suspect that the factory management have been able to turn over more responsibility to Strom. All 5 factories are making sugar. TransSystems trucks are rolling hard and that means slice is good. I am very skeptical that any beets have been dumped.
This was always a huge gamble for both sides and it is obvious to me that the union went all in and lost. I get no joy from that, it’s just the fact as I see it.
I don’t see it as greed. I see it as 2 sides that each thought they could envision the outcome of a contract dispute. ACS had the better vision.
Justine, do you think that the union has been well represented by their leadership?
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I honestly think that it wouldn’t matter if the union leadership had done a phenomenal job or not. I doubt that even the most accomplished pr firm could have swayed this lot. But are we really surprised that people, who you have said have fewer resources, are putting together a worse public image.
I am constantly surprised by how little we are concerned about anyone but ourselves. People here seem resigned to “the way things have always been” or “quit because you can’t win.”
Why bother to take that stinker of a contract if you might as well quit in the end anyway? And why bother to care enough to take it if so many people think that you deserve nothing more? Disappointing.
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The better vision or the better funded vision?
Sorry, what a joke that the top management has made more in the last 3 years than in the 10 preceding. And then they think that it would be fabulous to cut the pay and benefits of the little guy. Give me a break. And for the farmers who say that your benefits stink-get better ones by cutting Berg’s pay. How much would $800,000 buy do you think?
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How would you like to make an additional $160 mo. ? that’s what the union charges for dues.. ditch them, u could make almost 2000 more per year. That’s 2.5 mil per year gone to the union! You all could have still been working at the factories if they weren’t there, overall making more money.
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Elredton: Who told you that the union dues were $160 a month? The dues are $31. I just want you to know that.
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Flying Nurse
You might be interested to know that the beets are rotting in the piles. Rotten beets have been hauled out of Hillsboro, dumped in a field, and buried with pulp to hide them. Juicing is going on in other areas so Crystal will be dealing with odor complaints also.
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Right next to Jimmy Hoffa right Paul.
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Scole…Jimmy Hoffa, that’s really dam* funny!
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The piles are doing good, the earlier piled ones just have some poor quality ones on outside 2 ft due to the hot weather and wind. (outside foot common every year) beets goin in now are in perfect condition for long term storage.
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Who is Bagdad Bob? Has anyone heard of him?
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Baghdad was Saddam’s Minister of Information. He was the guy on TV doing press interviews saying the Coalition forces were no where near Baghdad, when they were actually down the street. Sounds a lot like Jeff H and his mess of misinformation he has been spewing for the past 70 day’s. Thanks for the comparison Jeff H. you are spot on.
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Are you going to say that the piles are in poor condition because of the replacement employee’s? Come on Jeff H, say it.
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**I honestly think that it wouldn’t matter if the union leadership had done a phenomenal job or not. I doubt that even the most accomplished pr firm could have swayed this lot. But are we really surprised that people, who you have said have fewer resources, are putting together a worse public image.**
Actually, the really surprising part is that you think it takes “resources” to project a positive public image. It doesn’t. The “leadership” has been outspoken since all of this began. They’ve positioned themselves on a soapbox, opened their mouths…and stuck their feet right in. They’ve applied *this* logic to their position, and applied *that* logic to their opponent’s position. If you can’t see that and recognize it for what it is, then I don’t know what to say.
The less-than-stellar public image you’ve noticed, has nothing to do with a lack of monetary resources. In other words, it isn’t “dollars” that are lacking, it’s “sense”.
I really can’t understand why you stick up for, (and make excuses for), the way they’ve handled this. If you’re truly concerned about the “little guy” being represented by these people, then is their job performance something you should be making excuses for? Is the union mindset you’ve bought into so overpowering that you feel an individual’s lackluster job performance requires making excuses for….rather than owning up to the reality of the situation and then dealing with it?
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I meant that some people are too pig-headed about this issue to change their minds regardless of what is said by the union, the company, or anyone else.
As far as making excuses for the union members, I am not. However, union members are not PR or marketing professionals, especially at the local level. As far as your assertion that public image doesn’t cost money, I think that there are businesses that maintain their image without money, but not without some sort of marketing plan. That generally takes some sort of human resource.
I am sure that each union member is dealing with the situation. Bit if they are getting new jobs, it would be silly for them to bargain by just taking the deal. Even if they are still unemployed, better to be looking now when it is a time of prosperity in the region then when the “final offer” makes their jobs obsolete in a few years anyway.
Why do you care? As far as I know you have never said what your stake in all of this is.
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**Why do you care? As far as I know you have never said what your stake in all of this is.**
My “stake” in all of this has been explained in plain English in other ACS labor threads. The jobs we’re discussing here DO NOT require more skill/education/experience than other similar positions in this region. Therefore, the employees SHOULD NOT be compensated at a higher rate. Doing so is completely artificial, and artificial automatically means unfair. Have you SEEN any of the signs being displayed by the workers? “Fair” and “Unfair” are the most often displayed themes.
Consider this: When they “bargain” for a compensation package, they’re doing so with a standard of living target in mind. Now around here, (just like EVERYWHERE ELSE), a standard of living is based upon what a person earns, as well as what the local/regional COSTS of things are. Those COSTS of goods/services are largely based upon labor costs. Everything that is made, every service that is provided incurs a labor cost. That labor cost is passed on to the customer. Am I buying truckloads of sugar from the plant? No….but the work I do, (and the work everyone ELSE does), is isn’t being compensated for by some imaginary, artificial, “collectively bargained-for” level.
My employer, (and other employers), pass labor costs on to the consumer. We consumers are then pretty much in the same boat. We do a job, get paid for it…and spend the paycheck.
Now explain why “certain folks” should be compensated at a higher level. Their standard of living is naturally going to be higher than that of someone else that’s EQUALLY skilled/educated/experienced. So not only are they getting paid more, but since EVERYONE ELSE isn’t getting this artificial wage, what those select few are SPENDING, (remember how the labor costs are passed on?), is basically LESS than it would be if EVERYONE were being paid at the same artificially-high level. They’re getting paid more, (thanks to their contract), but they don’t have to spend more, (because the labor cost of other employers isn’t being passed on to them).
Do you get it yet? Is it sinking in? Not only is the situation they desire UNFAIR, but when they don’t GET it…they carry around signs stating that’s it’s unfair that they’re not getting it.
I’ve got to ask….what’s YOUR stake in this?
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Are you directing that comment at me? I don’t want the “little people” working for minimum wage. I want them to get paid what they’d get paid elsewhere. It sounds completely logical to me. Perhaps you could explain why it isn’t logical.
**Do you really think the locked out workers would have had a half way decent contract in the past without a union**
It “almost” sounds like you get it. What I want to know, is WHY it’s assumed that they “deserve more” than what they’d be getting WITHOUT their “decent contract”. What they do isn’t any more extraordinary than anyone else. It CAN’T be . If it were, then that would be EVIDENT and there wouldn’t need to be any bargaining for an artificially-high compensation level….because the extraordinary conditions of their job, and the outstanding way they performed the job…would be obvious.
Oh, and I’m not upper-class….far from it. I’m a blue collar guy that’s just heard this nonsense too many times.
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LOL, upper class. Jeff I am as middle class as they come. I just know what my family and I need to survive. I just don’t sit around worrying about what I don’t have and appreciate what I do have. Was that slow enough for you?
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Scott, Thanks for putting that into words, you are exactly right. The union’s goal is for union members to have a better standard of living. In order for this to happen, other people must have a lessor standard of living. There is no way EVERYONE can have a higher standard of living, it is just economics. But the union people think they deserve it and are entitled to it. Is that fair?
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@Bob-I think you are absolutely correct in saying that the union’s goal is to have a better standard of living.
Actually, if we use ACS for an example, EVERYONE could have had a higher standard of living, but the coop decided that 3 people at the top deserved huge increases while proposing cuts for everyone else.
At what point, do we decide to spread the wealth to the people in our communities instead of one fast-talking guy at the top?
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Your comment here is actually very interesting for a few reasons. First, labor costs are one of MANY reasons that costs go up. Right now, transportation costs, with inflated gas prices, make almost every single cost go up. Scarcity also increases cost, like right now when wheat and cotton have been high to to droughts and floods worldwide. Labor has been less of a concern as we continue to find inexpensive manufacturing in other nations. Whole economics classes are taught on these topics I am sure.
Interestingly, though, the price of sugar is not dependent on any of these things as other things are because the sugar industry in the United States enjoys regulations that keep prices high regardless of the price of labor, energy costs, etc. I pay higher prices on each and every bag of sugar, candy bar, etc so that the local economy can do well, but not so that farmers and management alone can line their pockets. That money should go into the economy and help the entire valley. And before anyone talks about the zero cost of this program, think again. You pay taxes on every high prices sugar item you buy. In addition, when times get tough, farmers can pay their tax and debt in sugar which will be sold by your government at a loss.
Your view is that we should pay the minimum to everyone. My view is that people should earn a living wage. Your comments on economics show that you understand that higher pay equals higher costs, but higher salaries also create higher buying power. How people choose to spend their money and how they choose not to is based on opportunity cost-you can’t have everything. But if we pay people nothing they can have nothing. Then the whole community is affected.
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**Your view is that we should pay the minimum to everyone. **
Wrong. My view is that people should be paid WHAT THE JOB IS WORTH. How do we determine what the job is worth? We apply the same benchmarks we apply everywhere else. What we shouldn’t do, (because it makes no sense), is look around the area at the same positions, determine what THEY’RE getting paid….and then add 20/30/40%.
**My view is that people should earn a living wage**
How do you arrive at a “living wage”? Why does *this* person’s “living wage” not equal *that* person’s “living wage”?
**But if we pay people nothing they can have nothing. **
Once again, NOBODY has suggested that “we pay people nothing”. That’s nothing but rhetoric and exaggeration. If a plumber/line worker/electrician/welder/forklift operator/etc. working ELSEWHERE in this area goes to work every day and pays their bills with what they bring home….are we “paying them nothing”? Is THEIR labor “worth less”? You can say, “I never said that…”, but if you want union employees to BE PAID MORE, then that’s EXACTLY what you’re saying.
Explain how it ISN’T exactly what you’re saying.
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How do you determine what people are worth? Does that imply that some people are worthless? The problem that I have with your argument thus far is that is that you often start your basis on what people should be paid with the lowest possible standard. At one point someone argued that at least one job at ACSC was paid far less than the regional range. Everyone else’s salary’s go down and we blame the unions for saying that it shouldn’t be so.
I do not say that unions should be paid more than others, I merely state that just because everyone else’s salary is and has been decreasing since the 1970s does not mean that it should. It is a sign of a declining economy that our country’s leaders have been loath to even start to solve.
This area pays less than most other regions. Go figure that many people are leaving the region. How long do you think it will be until there are very few people in Grand Forks, Crookston, Drayton, Hillsboro, especially when you can go work in Fargo, Thief River Falls, Roseau, Warroad, and Greenbush for more. I am surprised some of those companies don’t run a bus every day since these workers at least show up to work.
Some of the reasons that jobs at some places pay more is that there is a demand for workers. I have reason to believe (one of them a letter regarding the high turn-over in Moorhead) and other sources that tell me that there is a high burnout rate of young people at ACS. Did you happen to notice that ACS is not decreasing pay, but rather benefits? I think that is because they could count on the people in this region jump on board the soapbox and proclaim that everyone should have the same (or at least not more than me).
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Your complaining about insurance has no merit. It’s cheap as compared to 95% of everyone nationwide. Most have to pay $500 or alot more a month for health insurance to get a 5000 or more deductible for family. Idk any that wouldn’t jump at the chance for the deal in the contract. It’s time you pay your fair share
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Actually the average worker pays $3,755 per year, or $313 per month, for a family insurance plan. So, nationally, it is nice to know that our insurance also lags behind the average.
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Mike,
As it has been reported, if the company had contacted the union employees directly, they would have involved in unfair negotiating tactics. The company is required to negotiate with the union negotiating team.
I’d think all those union dues for the last 5 years could be used for member education during negotiations.
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**How do you determine what people are worth? Does that imply that some people are worthless? **
Good grief Justine, I’ve mentioned this SEVERAL times. In any OTHER situation, how is it determined what the pay and benefits scale should be? It’s pretty simple: We consider the skill/education/experience required to do the job. THEN, we consider what the local/regional market is. It works surprisingly well. On the other hand, (and since you stick up for union labor’s position consistently), how are THEY arriving at a pay and benefits number? If the number(s) they come up with are HIGHER THAN EVERYONE ELSE’S NUMBERS, who do you think is the more likely party that has difficulty understanding the math?
Oh and the last part of your statement about “implying some people are worthless” is beyond ridiculous. Nobody has suggested that. I certainly haven’t. I just want YOU or ANYONE ELSE to explain, (no lengthy paragraphs of nonsense and/or dancing around the issue), why a certain set of benchmarks are applied to “other” peoples’ wage and benefit packages, but the “union folk” deserve something extra.
What they do and how they do it is NOT special or extraordinary. Post up any and all examples you want illustrating why you feel otherwise, and it will be EASY to refute them.
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I am just scrolling threw some of these comments. One I see is about holiday pay at 3 times. Thats funny he poked that out after I placed my last comment. I hate to inform you but this was a company change to the contract and not a union change. I can see there is still some major confusion between what was talked about between the company and the workers.
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I don’t care who came up with the idea, holiday pay at 2.5-3X base is NUTS. Do you realize the employees at Altru don’t even get 1.5X? The reason? Altru says it would cost too much. Flipping clerks at the local convienience store get 1.5X. I think i need to investigate slicing beets, obviously being a licensed professional is no longer profitable compared to semi skilled labor
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Give me a break. Nursing salaries have increased hugely in the past 10 years, probably due in part to the union representation that many nurses enjoy. Just because YOU don’t receive a benefit doesn’t mean that others shouldn’t have it. If it were left only to ALTRU, they would have continued to pay nurses almost minimum wage like they did in the 80s.
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Nursing wages have increased due to nursing shortages which in turn has made it easy to negotiate for the union hospitals. Benefits range from position to position; hospital to hospital. It’s where your happiest at. If you don’t like what one has to offer there are plenty more to work at.
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Yep, and if there were no unions you would have twice as many patients per nurse and you would have to negotiate salaries individually. But perhaps you are right about one thing, those unions also protect the crabby, burned out nurses that perpetuate the hospital here.
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Justine, I wish what you say was true, but it simply isn’t: at least not in our neck of the woods. There are no nursing unions in ND. The reason ND wages have risen is supply and demand. The reason they lag behind the rest of the country by $8 -$10 an hour is supply and demand, specifically the lack of competition hospitals in this state face.
Nurses have always been able to go to MNPLS and get $10 an hour more; many do. Those that want to stay here are forced to accept what ND pays.
ND has no nurse/patient ratios like California. Neither does MNPLS for that matter. The nurse/patient ratio is dependent upon where you work.
The biggest problem facing healthcare in ND is the lack of competition. There is ONE insurance company in this state; they pretty much decide how things are going to be.
Each “major” population center (tongue in cheek) has one or maybe two hospitals max; not enough to generate real competition. The CEO of the two hospitals in any given town serve on the same boards and attend the same charity functions. Of course there is collusion to keep their number one expense down.
With Safford in town, there is even less competition. For a several hundred mile radius they set the tone. Any nurse in his or her right mind would be very careful about getting on their bad list or you will have no choice but to go to MNPLS or Omaha to get a job, you will be black balled up here.
Your assertion that wages have gone up because of unions does not hold water. In California that is true. Here: not so much.
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I guess that I do not know what happens in CA.
But if there is no nurses union here, I wonder why the only hospital in my town keeps their cranky nurses.
I guess I might still be right that no one wants to move here.
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Look at Union Initial Contract Proposal #12:
http://www.acsccontracttalks.com/bctgm.proposal.pdf
Not much confusion here.
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Has anyone heard when the next session will be? I heard the union was going to ask, and the company agreed to meet if asked by the mediator, but that is it. No news since then.
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talk about an ambulance chaser.
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The next negotiation is on October 24. It is on thebuzz.areavoices.com
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**ACS did nothing to inform the workers on there insurance proposal. ACS threw there offer at the workers without explanation. Or did they asume everyone has a computer to read there web site?**
What was in the offer? What needed further explanation? To whom did ACS make the offer? What non-existent computer are you typing on right now? Did the offer, (that wasn’t explained to you), include a web address to visit for more information? Or are you saying that you were given a piece of paper to sign that simply said “insurance changes”? Did your union leadership offer up any explanations of the offer? Was the union leadership aware of the offer? Is it their job to convey offers submitted to them to the employees they represent? An “overwhelming majority” rejected the offer, or so we’ve been told. On what did they base their rejection, if the offer wasn’t explained to them? Is it wise to “overwhelmingly reject” an offer that’s not understood? When you were encouraged by leadership to “overwhelmingly reject” the offer, did the leadership bother to explain the possible consequences? When ACS made their “final offer” and CALLED IT their “final offer”, what did your leadership suggest that you do?
As far as the “planned lockout” goes, it certainly sounds like you’ve got their motives and long-range plan all figured out. I guess what’s confusing then, is why the situation is currently what it is….because it certainly seems as if the union wasn’t IN ANY WAY prepared for what has occurred thus far. It sure seems like they went into this thinking the deck was stacked in their favor. It sure seems that since the lockout, (that everyone says has been in the works for a year), the union has been grasping at straws. The failed complaints to the NLRB, the very public faux pas with the fliers in the grocery stores, saying that they’d like to meet with the growers directly, etc.
It seems ridiculous to say, (on one hand), that you’re aware this has been in the works for a year while, (on the other hand), the union was THIS unprepared for what would happen.
Further explanation is required please.
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I agree. Did the unions meet with its members? Companies/Corporations across the world are constantly assessing budgets asset/loss. At the end of their fiscal year they make their descisions as how to best meet the budget. Do the Unions meet with the corporations throughout this process as it members are directly affected by this? The members of the union should be asking these questions. It seems that the preverbiale ball was dropped somewhere along the line.
We can pout all we want about “his” wage and “her wage you’ll drive yourself crazy….just sayin.
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