Details emerge on upcoming candidate forums
July 15, 2011 at 11:14 am in Hudson Star-Observer
With barely three weeks until the 10th Senate District election, details are being worked out on four proposed forums or debates that will allow voters to compare and contrast incumbent Senator Sheila Harsdorf, a Republican, with her Democratic challenger, Ellsworth teacher Shelly Moore.
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Actually, I think the schedule has more to do with Shelly’s speaking engagements with the NEA ….seems like her appearance at the Chicago meeting took precedence over the Hudson Booster parade….didn’t look good so they want to make sure that doesn’t happen again.
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NEA ?? National Extortion Association
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I’m looking forward to the debates!
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Questions I hope are asked of Shelly Moore:
why did she buy Education MN mailing lists to use to solicit donations and volunteers?
Why were Minneapolis NetRoots Nation conference-goers bused into the 10th district?
Why doesn’t she return the money contributed from people who live outside the district?
http://mediatrackers.org/2011/07/moore-relies-on-minnesota-and-non-district-donors-supporters/
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Alec: let me help you find answers to your questions:
1. school choice removing “62 million from the district” for MPS school choice: from Politifact: “The Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the state’s neutral authority on budget matters, declared in a November 2010 memo that other than Milwaukee Public Schools — which loses state aid for each MPS student who transfers to a choice school — “all school districts’ aid payments and property tax levies are not affected by the choice program.” Where’s your evidence to the contrary, especially the 62 million figure?
2. What is the source of your claim the GOP hired criminals to come into WI? Here is the Ds job posting from Democrat Gain website:
Wisconsin District Field Manager
Organization: Democracy for America
Date Posted: 6/13/2011
Listing Expires: 7/13/2011
Date Needed: 6/20/2011
City: La Crosse, Eau Claire, Milwaukee
Location: Wisconsin
3. Farm subsidies are a federal program open to ALL farmers. Trim-bell Valley Farm, the Harsdorf family farm, has not received any federal payments since 2005. (source: search for EWG farm subsidy database). You are dumb enough to think this is $ that went right into Sheila’s pocket because you have NO idea what requirements are necessary to apply for the $, and what is required once federal $ is accepted. And obviously you have NO idea the negative impact 80-year-old federal dairy price-setting policy has on a dairy business.
Demanding Sheila return this $ is like demanding a former welfare recipient return food stamp $. And now we have individuals getting federal “grant” money to put a family wind turbine on their property to help provide electricity for that ONE family. Will you demand sometime in the future those people return federal $?
Outside conservative groups must be putting $ into the state to counteract the $ coming from the intentionally mis-named “We Are WI”. The robo-call had NOTHING to do with Harsdorf, and the full story is available at the Milw. Journal website.
4. Politifacts gave Moore a “pants on fire” rating claiming Harsdorf “wants to eliminate Medicare as we know it”. (and where is the Ds medicare plan? Obama is in violation of the law that states he MUST provide a repair plan when the medicare trustees indicate an upcoming financial problem.)
Why wouldn’t Harsdorf reverse her position if she felt it wasn’t certain legislation wasn’t good for her district?
Now, ask some good questions.
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alec, clean off the bifocals…I’m known as “gs”, not greg/grego. I don’t really care what you call me, but at least you can accurately spew your bitterness to the right person.
Ryan proposed a plan, some people like it and some don’t. Then there is Obama twisting the truth, as he does so well, causing more people to not like it.
But, where is the Democrat plan? Ryan had the courage to bring up the discussion and present a proposal; Obama/Pelosi/Reed’s plan is…..what? There is none…just hot air about Ryan pushing grandma off the cliff.
I don’t know what you want me to “look up”, if you have specifics, link to the article. I’ll read it, and I’m willing to change my opinion.
Tell me, why is an 82/83 yr old woman sticking her nose in WI Senate district 10 business? You can’t vote without proper WI photo ID, so that means you are either a volunteer Moore got off the Ed MN mailing list, or you are lying about who you are. Or maybe,….could it be….danimal????? Maybe danimal on a coherent rant day?????
Don’t you need to keep an eye on Dayton?
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g s,
Not danimal…more likely a hired gun. Not to brag, but I’m feeling positively clairvoyant.
(from an earlier post:
Here’s my prediction: In the next month, we’ll start seeing a bunch of new members showing up posting against ‘FitzWalkerHarsdorf’ (although I’m still not exactly sure what the fetish is with that name). Further prediction: Postings by these new members will be short, devoid of local flavor, and will appear to originate from the same talking (attacking?) points.
If my prejudice is incorrect, I’ll be happy to be proven wrong. But if the posts are uninspired, acerbic, and contain the apparently mandatory references to ‘FitzWalkerHarsdorf’…then I’ll assume that MooreWeinerSpitzer is getting more than $$$ from out of town.)
All alec’s missing is the ‘FitzWalkerHarsdorf’ line….
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I was contacted by a robo-survey earlier in the week, and while perusing the MediaTracker website found the backstory on the survey taker….paid for by the AFL-CIO.
http://mediatrackers.org/2011/07/big-labor-runs-deceptive-phone-survey/
MediaTrackers.org also has a story on other school districts that have saved $ due to collective bargaining:
Menomonee Falls: 2.3+ million
Tomorrow River: 400,000
Palmyra-Eagle: 1.15 million
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Tell the whole story why! Because MPS rushed to settle contracts with their teachers union BEFORE the budget repair bill was made law. They shortsightedly bound themselves to paying insurance and pension costs they could have avoided had they waited to settle. We all saw what was happening back in Feb and March and they fell right into WEAC’s trap. Shame on the school board for not doing their job to protect taxpayers.
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william rogers The purpose of a school is to educate students. Your union views school as a jobs program for you teachers. Get a grip on your self pitty!
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I talked with a school board member today. Because they waited until the collective bargaining law was published, they were able to retain all the teachers they had given layoff notices to. (They did cut 2 positions they had planned to cut all along and not restaff.)
The board also saved in excess of 1 million dollars due to pension and health insurance contributions, but that includes health insurance with a $200 deductible.
I’ve never had health insurance with less than 2000 dollars deductible, and I paid a heck of a lot more/month for it.
I also asked if teacher pay/benefits were so low they had problems attracting job candidates. He laughed…said they get 200-300 applications/elem ed opening.
He also said federal and state mandates were the biggest hurdles to actually educating the kids.
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alec,
Thanks for joining up 20 minutes ago…looks like you’ll be a prolific poster.
If you are really in Coon Rapids, MN, did you get hit with the storm that went through in the last hour or so?
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One thing for sure is the pizza is more popular than your posts. You should be ashamed crying about teachers not being paid enough in these economic times. Many people work 12 months, have comparible education and do not make as much a you, a teacher. Now add in your benefits and it is not even close. You teachers in Wisconsin look like a group of babies!
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We pay one of the highest, if not the highest, rate per student for public education. Yet we remain in the lower half of nations when it comes to student performance on standardized tests. At the level we pay , our students should be at the top.
Don’t tell me you can’t measure student performance. Obviously, other countries do it just fine and their studens outperform ours. Don’t let the facts get in the way Will.
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Wow, what sort of fairyland do you live in WR? In the real world, people are taking pay cuts, benefits cuts and in many cases job cuts. But how dare anyone ask a teacher to make any sort of sacrifice. Hey, Obama’s your guy and he keeps talking to us about shared sacrifice….looks like it’s your turn.
You guys are all about class warfare. Go through town and all you see are teachers with Moore signs….We want Moore!!! is what they are saying. Moore from you and Moore from eveyone else, regardless of your family’s current financial state. It is shameful….they don’t care that other people are suffering, they still want Moore. Wait until August 9th.
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from Politifact:
…The CBO figures paint a more specific, and stark, contrast. In 2007 (the most recent year listed), the top 1 percent of earners paid 19 percent of their income in federal individual income taxes, and for people earning less, the rate went steadily down, to a rate of minus 6.8 percent for people in the lowest 20 percent of taxpayers. (Because of the Earned Income Tax Credit, many working class families pay no net taxes and, indeed, collect refunds from the government to help them make ends meet.)
The CBO chart covers only the federal individual income tax, which is the one Geithner was discussing. But even if you fold in other federal taxes (corporate, estate, Social Security and Medicare), average rates remain higher for the richest group than for everyone else. The non-partisan Urban-Brookings center folded in the other forms of federal taxes for 2011, and found that the top 1 percent will pay 27.6 percent, and that rates steadily decline for the less-wealthy until they reach zero (a little less, actually) for the lowest one-fifth of earners.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jul/12/timothy-geithner/geithner-says-top-1-percent-have-tax-rate-low-20s/
alec, I must say you are a fiesty, clear-thinking 82 year old MN resident. You lived through the depression, what is your greatest memory of that time?
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alec, you sound a lot like danimal…..did danimal go through the courts to get a name change or are you illegally blogging by a fictitious name?!?!
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Look up the facts there Willy. The MIlwaukee contract was ratified in November, and took into account none of the cost saving measures introduced by the budget repair bill. The teachers now refuse to reopen the contract and they would rather see 200 fellow teachers lose their jobs than to pay an increase in their pension or healthcare costs. Could save the district up to $41 million!! Gosh, I thought that they cared about the kids and education! Apparently, they only care about themselves.
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I didn’t think it was okay for the company I worked for to close the doors with 5 HOURS notice.
My parents taught me:
Life isn’t fair, get over it, get over yourself. When you get knocked down, pull yourself back up.
RE property of equal value is taxed equally…why do you point the finger at “the rich”. You make it sound like they don’t pay taxes….and that’s a lie. More expensive house=more property tax.
The “rich” spend more discretionary income= more sales tax income.
You’re a big whiner who thinks you are “owed” money from other people. Get over it, if you feel so abused, quit and find another job. I can’t even afford a pizza.
Gratitude is an attitude, teachers need to start being thankful they have a job.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“gratitude is an attitude” is self-explanatory if you stop to count your blessings: (“I have a job”) rather than spending your time being a victim (“I lost 6% of my paycheck”)
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Just because gratitude isn’t part of your attitude doesn’t mean it isn’t part of anyone else’s….
15 posts in the 4 hours since becoming a member…guess you meant to hit the ground running…hope you’re paid by the post.
Do you plan to stick around after the recall election is over?
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If you are who your profile says you are, you are the first person I’ve met who has lived through the depression and is now a bitter, ungrateful person, unable to find a blessing in daily life. You have my sympathy.
I was driving for a local trucking company and when I called for backhaul info the dispatcher told me the owner just told the office staff he was closing the business. I took the equipment back to the terminal, and cleaned out his truck.
That was in 2005, the economy didn’t really pay a part from what I could tell based on load volume. The cost of maintaining aging equipment was probably the biggest reason, new EPA standards and new FMCSA regs were possibly contributing standards.
Because of a disability, I’ve not been able to get another driving job so I returned to a more physically demanding self-employed business. And no, while expenses have gone up, my profit margin has remained fairly constant. I would like to expand, but given Obama caused business uncertainties, I won’t.
Your statement “You can thank both Bush’s for that, by the way. They drove all of us into the dirt.” is meaningless without defining, “dirt”, and links to articles explaining how “they drove us”. I’m not impressed with hot air; provide supporting documents and maybe I’ll change my opinion.
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g s
I’m sorry to hear about your losing your job that way. It sucks.
I once lost a job with no notice. A job located 1,500 miles from my home. Thanks to my union I got money to go home, for the two weeks I was owed plus two weeks severance, The union also forced the employer to allow us into the building to remove our personal property.
I’m sorry that you didn’t have a union to help you out.
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Actually William, the company would not have been in business if it was unionized.
The owner and office staff treated everyone like respected family members; but there was no way to hold a meeting to explain things when 30+ drivers are scattered over the eastern US, some outbound and some inbound.
We all got paid, we all got back to the terminal. The only drivers inconvenienced were the drivers the owner graciously allowed to take his truck to their house. (Because of federal road tax, the owner paid out of his pocket so the driver could have that convince.)
After a union experience with another trucking company, I will never again work where there is a union.
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Caroline, could the reason that 14% of teachers leave the profession each year – 46% of teachers leave within the first five years be the result of a Union who doesn’t reward the good hard working teachers, but instead rewards the lazy, do as little as possible teachers?
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William,
Thanks for joining 6 days ago…and thanks for delivering the pizza. (FYI, our family feeds 6 on a large pizza–but I’m not a teacher.)
Is Pepin your hometown?
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UB
Thanks for the good wishes.
I am not a teacher but I played one on TV.
Not a native of Pepin but have lived here since ’95.
The teacher/pizza joke is an old one they used to tell about actors.
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William,
I hope you don’t feel “stalked.” There’ve been an exceptional number of new members since the recall primary posting on what I consider to be the upcoming tantrum election in senate district 10. Nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to minimize the paid ‘hit-and-run’ pieces from out of state.
You don’t have to live here all your life to be welcome, but I think you have more credibility if you aren’t an election drive-by.
Personally, it doesn’t look like I’ll agree with you much on politics…but I like your thoughtfulness and style. Please stick around.
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I have had to pay more for benefits every year for the last 5 years. Raises have been very low or zero during that period. I have had a net take home pay loss every year.
Welcome to the real world. 10% of the population is unemployed and has been for 2 years. Unemployment is expected to remain high for the next 5 years.
Quit whining and look elsewhere if you don’t like your compensation package. You may like your job a LOT more when you see what is happening and why tax payers can’t afford to provide you with above market benefit and compensation.
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How is that greed? If you want CEO benefits, work harder and get a CEO job. The average job has had increased benefit costs and lower pay because the economy is bad. You can’t expect someone else to pay your bills, or support you. Want more? Then do more, work harder. You aren’t entitled to a good education, a nice house, or food.
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Not if it’s coming from taxes from MY money. You want more money, start your own business, name yourself CEO and pay yourself CEO money. And don’t forget to pay high taxes to suport deadbeats that think they are entitled to a good life because you are working 24/7.
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If your theory is that Walker=Republican=Ryan=Harsdorf, then:
Soros=Obama=Pelosi=Moore=alec
Steve Wynn called Obama’s policies socialism, so therefore all Dems are socialists (using your logic)
Should I respect you as an individual with opinions; or, should I just ridicule you as a Soros/Moore fool, unable to think for yourself?
I prefer to respect you as an individual.
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Anytime you want to test that theory, Greg.
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It should be amusing to watch Shelly in the debates. Good thing she gets the questions before hand….gives her a chance to have someone tutor her on the issues.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Shiela does talk calls from constituents that are reasonable and rational. Would you want to talk to raving lunatics?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Popeye12:
Why don’t you use your health insurance instead of your wife’s teacher health insurance?
Let me guess, hers is much better than what you could get. Right?
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Popeye’s wife’s benefits come from MY taxes, so it is MY business. If you think they should have better benefits, then pony up some taxes.
No one is stopping you from giving more for the kids. Don’t you care?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Your wife is teaching in the wrong district. That number came from a negotiating committee board member.
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Greg, how often do you public information request the school and/or call them at all hours for information.
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I was getting some business supplies and happened to see the school board member. This is why the founders wanted government as close to the people as possible: so you could talk face-to-face with elected reps.
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The “founders.” Did you get that word from the Kochs?
Jeez, tea partiers are…?
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which “infamous “made-up” statistics” are you referring to, and what reality are you speaking of: the Ds lies or the truth?
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I apologize if something was posted twice, fingers are sticky with humidity.
Caroline, I’m self-employed. I’m not working right now because of the weather, but about 9pm I’ll be outside again working for at least 3 hours. And the alarm clock gets set for first light, so I still end up with at least 9 hours/day in this heat.
I enjoy learning, and end up on blog sites trying to run down the rest of the story, and hopefully the truth, behind some of the posts and claims. I’m tired of being lied to by ALL politicians, and unfortunately there are too many people perpetuating the lies.
I’d offer you a job, but I won’t hire anyone until Obama is out of office.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Have the summer off do you?
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That was for Caroline—I appreciate your tough hours there gs. Self-employment is tough, especially if your work is weather dependent. These teachers and their 3 month summer vacations….they don’t understand or appreciate how the rest of the world works.
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So exactly when does this cushy 3 month summer vacation start for the teachers? So far my husband has worked 2 different jobs since school ended, and will work 1 more before school starts in September. He will continue working 1 of those jobs during the school year as well. All of this in addition to my full-time, private sector income. So please, enlighten me…what does my husband (and many others like him) need to do to “understand or appreciate how the rest of the world works”?
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Excellent point, Kari! Not to mention the classes teachers have to take at their own expense and on their own time to keep their teaching license up-to-date.
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If you have a feeling you know why I’m not a teacher, why don’t you tell me? cheap words.
Did you not know you needed a license to teach when you applied for a teaching job?
I knew I had to have a federal license (CDL) to be a truck driver; and hazmat, tankers, doubles/triples are extra endorsements that come with extra requirements and costs. And yes, truck drivers are required to have yearly safety training and medical exams (1 or 2 year).
If you don’t like the pay, benefits, license requirements, CE requirements….then don’t do the job. Other occupations have the same problems/costs.
I doubt any teacher quits because a taxpayer bad-mouths teachers. I didn’t quit truck driving the first time I got the one-finger salute….but since it was my first day of driving out in traffic at the truck driving school the instructor damn near fell out of his seat laughing……I hadn’t done anything wrong, the guy just couldn’t get out of the gas station….
grow up, life isn’t fair
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As a matter of fact, I’m working two part-time jobs, not that it’s any of your business.
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I read your linked article, and there are a lot of stats; but as I was reading I started wondering why the author would include some things, and later on exclude those things.
Then I read the comments, and found other people also had problems with the conflicting stats.
I have agreed before, (danimal,) and I’ll agree again: capital gains should be taxed…and then you’ll hear Buffet squealing like a stuck pig. Why is it some of the wealthy say, “the rich should pay more”, but they can voluntarily donate to the US Treasury, and don’t?
Tax loopholes are a result of federal politicians being too cozy in their jobs, to much backroom dealings…both parties are guilty.
Now, how do you reconcile your linked article with this:
We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in fiscal policy, both in cases of fiscal stimuli and in that of fiscal adjustments in OECD countries from 1970 to 2007. Fiscal stimuli based upon tax cuts are more likely to increase growth than those based upon spending increases. As for fiscal adjustments, those based upon spending cuts and no tax increases are more likely to reduce deficits and debt over GDP ratios than those based upon tax increases. In addition, adjustments on the spending side rather than on the tax side are less likely to create recessions. We confirm these results with simple regression analysis.
Published: Large Changes in Fiscal Policy: Taxes versus Spending, Alberto Alesina, Silvia Ardagna, in Tax Policy and the Economy, Volume 24 (2010), The University of Chicago Press
http://www.nber.org/papers/w15438
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obviously alec, your eyesight is poor…now you refer to me as, “greg S.”, so I doubt you could even see a Walker sign. And since you live in the cities, how could you see me driving there?
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Tax payers are evil? We work hard for our money and are tired of giving it to free loaders and leeches. Why don’t YOU pay more? YOU want more services/benefits, not me.
We should all quit working and go on welfare and complain that the rich people aren’t supporting us enough. Then when everyone is on welfare and no one is working, where will the taxes/benefits come from?
I wonder what you would complain about if you were in the “rich” demographic?
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Go get another job Caroline and stop complaining about not making enough. Surely you could do something better with your time/summer off if you are so strapped for cash.
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There is a lot of pain and anger in so many postings that is palpable when reading them. The truth is there are two Americas right now and the split is not political, it’s financial.
As long as the people at the top of the pyramid continue to put distance between themselves and the middle class, as long as the “rich get richer” by holding the middle class down there will continue to be a growing resentment. The problem, as I see it, is that so much middle class anger is misdirected within the middle towards those who have a little more. With all due respect, you should not ask why does somene else have something I don’t…you should ask why don’t I have health insurance.
Henry Ford, an icon of capitalism, had it right. While taking a tour of the factory another industrialist asked Ford why he paid his workers 25% more than the prevailing factory wage. Ford answered that he wanted his workers to be able to afford to buy his cars.
The middle class got squeezed in the Bush Administration so eventually the middle class stopped buying so much stuff. Companies were selling less stuff so they downsized their workforce causing the middle class to buy even less stuff…and so it goes.
Under Eisenhauer the top tax rate was 90% and America grew. People made stuff and people bought stuff.
Under Nixon the top tax rate was 60% and the economy grew and under Clinton when the top tax rate was a whopping 39% when the US budget was in surplus and the overall economy was good.
If the assertion that tax cuts spurred job growth were true the Bush tax cuts would have spurred an explosion
of employment. Unfortunately, the opposite was the case and we lost both jobs and the Clinton budget surplus. The fact is that Since Obama came to the Presidency this trend has reversed and we are slowly reversing the trend and creating jobs. This in spite of the public employee sector hemorraging jobs.
We need to work together to try to make everyone’s life better. A vital, growing middle class is the best way to make the rich richer. So don’t complain because a teacher pays a little less for healthcare and if you think we need to go to a year round school calendar this can be discussed (you might be interested to know first however what it costs to cool school buildings in the summer).
Why can’t we work together to raise the bar for everyone instead of lowering it.
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Because you want the rich to raise your bar, instead of you working harder to get more money to raise your bar. Why do you think the rich have an obligation to make your life easier?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I never really considered Christ to be a leader, or follower, of any one political party. Seems both the Pharisees and Sadducees were equally displeased with his example and teachings, which explains the overwhelming support for his death from the Jewish ruling classes.
During his ministry:
Wealthy?…No
Homeless?…Yes
Enrolled in unemployment?…No
On Medicare?…No
Social Security?…No
Covered by a pension plan?…No
Employer?…No
Employee?…No
Teacher?…Yes
Union member?…No
CEO?…No
Political leader?…No
King?…Yes (spiritually) and No (naturally)
Healer?…Yes
Encouraged love and unity?…Yes
Chased those who bought and sold from the temple?…Yes
Warned the rich?…Yes
Refused anointment with precious oil in favor of money for the poor?…No
Said his kingdom was not of this earth?…Yes
It bothers me when Christ is used to justify political positions…but if you personally are following his example and teachings, then you can’t go wrong.
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I agree that Christ’s teachings are a good template for living your life.
You lose me when you seem to argue that because Christ didn’t have social security, medicare, or a pension that somehow because I believe people should have these things that I am hypocritical. I don’t believe Christ had a cel Phone. modern medicine or even a computer but I don’t believe he would frown on them either.
I believe we were put on this earth to love and care for each other and if you don’t agree with that I’m sorry for you.
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I think you misunderstood me. I don’t believe you are hypocritical, and didn’t intend to imply it.
I only meant to illustrate that the presence or absence of those things–like the cel phone, medicine, and computer you discussed–are immaterial to whether we can or do love and care for each other.
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I don’t think life is unfair. But people who think rich should pay more sure seem to think life is unfair, or why would they complain? I pay plenty in taxes and give to charities. I also volunteer my time. I don’t care if you do or don’t and who gives and who doesn’t. What I don’t understand is why people think the rich should pay for their children’s education and why they deserve a nice home and food. Welfare is usually generational and so is hard work. Too many people complaining when they can control their own destiny, but they look to others instead of relying on themselves.
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If it’s all about helping your fellow man, why do you want to stick it to the rich? YOU want everyone to help you, but don’t want to help anyone else? If you feel sorry for teachers, you can give them money. Why aren’t you giving more? You preach it all the time.
You lefties always feel sorry for yourself and think you deserve a handout instead of working harder.
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Who, specifically, is asking for a handout, Matt?
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Matt,
General Electric made over 100 bilion dollars last year and paid no taxes. Why am I a socialist because I think that’s wrong. I don’t see you complaining about the fact that Exxon Mobile pays a lower tax rate than you or I while making a profit of $75,000.00 per MINUTE.
My guess would be that we all agree that we should all pay our fair share so let’s stop the name calling and imply that anyone who believes in a better world is angling for something for themselves.
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Well said, William! Thank you!
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William, you have to look at the accounting to see WHY GE paid no taxes.
GE: files a 24,000 page (if printed out) tax form, the largest IRS filer
:has two divisions, GE Capitol and “everything else”; everything else would have been taxed at 22% if it was a standalone company
:”It’s GE Capital that keeps the overall tax bill so low. Over the last two years, GE Capital has displayed an uncanny ability to lose lots of money in the U.S. (posting a $6.5 billion loss in 2009), and make lots of money overseas (a $4.3 billion gain). Not only do the U.S. losses balance out the overseas gains, but GE can defer taxes on that overseas income indefinitely.”
:”But it’s the tax benefit of overseas operations that is the biggest reason why multinationals end up with lower tax rates than the rest of us. It only makes sense that multinationals “put costs in high-tax countries and profits in low-tax countries,” says Scott Hodge, president of the Tax Foundation. Those low-tax countries are almost anywhere but the U.S. “When you add in state taxes, the U.S. has the highest tax burden among industrialized countries,” says Hodge. In contrast, China’s rate is just 25%; Ireland’s is 12.5%.”
info and quoted comments from: http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html
You’ve also fallen into the “profit” trap, instead of looking at the meaningful metric: profit margin.
The link is to an article summarizing a May, 2011Yahoo finance table of profit margins by industry. Oil ranks #114 out of 225 identified sectors, making 6.2 CENTS /dollar of sales. Beverages: brewers=16.5 cents/dollar of sales, soft drinks=14.3cents/dollar of sales; #7 is Internet Information Providers =23.8 cents/dollar sales.
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/05/oil-profit-margin-ranks-114-out-215.html
Politicians on BOTH sides want people to be business ignorant; making it easier to pass off misleading information, creating confusion and class envy. When schools are busy teaching politically correct social issues, the population remains downright dumb on other issues.
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Anyone that expects more in services than they pay in taxes. For example if someone pays less than $10,000 in taxes (per child), has one or more children going to school and wants more money thrown into education. If you expect more than you are paying in, you are getting a handout.
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Matt – I think you’re missing the big picture. Even people who don’t have children pay taxes and therefore contribute to public education. Don’t you think that our society would fall apart if we didn’t have compulsory K-12 education? Look at other countries who don’t require their youth to be educated – educating young people is for the greater good of society, not just to improve the individual.
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Should someone without children have to pay for someone else’s children’s education? I have children, but think it isn’t fair to someone that doesn’t have children to pay for their educatiomn. Paying for their education is MY responsibility. Giving someone a house, food, car is better for society too. Does that mean it should be done? People that use services are the ones that should pay for it, not everyone.
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And if you want to look at the big picture, look at world hunger. Instead of spending $10,000+ per child and building these unnecessary mausoleums for schools, why not cut spending to reasonable levels and send the money to starving countries? What benefits society more?
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Seriously, Matt? If you can’t see the benefit to providing an education to the masses then there’s no point in continuing this discussion with you. Countries that don’t provide compulsory education are called third world countries.
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Matt,
I see your point.
From now on when someone reports a their house is on fire the head of the fire dept. should check the property tax rolls and determine if the owner pays sufficient tax to warrant the cost of putting out the fire. If the estimated cost of extinguishing the fire exceeds the property tax total (for say 3 years) the fire marshall contacts the owner for a visa/MC # to pay the difference. If the owner has no credit card the owner sahll contact their home owners carrier to authorize the expense. Once the proper documentation has been received the fire dept. may begin putting out the fire.
This simple proceedure will save you hundreds in property taxes. Of course it will cost you thousands in home owners insurance but that’s a small price to pay for a more efficient and accountable government. Right?
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It’s obvious that the tax collection structure needs to be revised.
With a budget of $3.7 trillion per year, the federal government is burning through $117,000,000 per SECOND. Maybe we can work on the spending side too.
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Agreed!
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Ok this whole ‘rich need to pay their fair share’ stuff has got to stop. There are plenty of reports out there stating that the rich DO pay PLENTY of taxes. But this is what really bothers me:
Most rich people (especially in this state) become that way because they worked hard for it. Most people work 40 hours a week. Well I”m not even considered rich, but to get ahead I’m working 60. So, I give up some time with the family, time going out for fun, time mowing the lawn, time communicating with friends, tv, etc. I also choose not to go on expensive vacations, buy expensive cars, or eat out. I’m not asking for a pity party. BUT why, because I put in so much extra work, you think you have the right to take MORE money from my pocket? You want to be rich? You can be. It requires a lifestyle change, not a government handout! the problem is, there are plenty of you out there that we could give more money to and you would still be poor, because you would make very unwise choices with it.
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John,
I admire your work ethic.
If you want to talk about a change to the tax system to make it more balanced that is worth discussion.
As long as we have a progressive tax system the more you make…the more you pay
Here’s something we probably agree on. Everyone should pay something…even if it’s one dollar in a very bad year. More people would feel like they are invested in the country and take a more active role in government.
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Will, you said:
“Everyone should pay something…even if it’s one dollar in a very bad year. More people would feel like they are invested in the country and take a more active role in government.”
very well stated, and I totally agree.
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How about a fixed tax system?
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also william, Exxon, including all taxes (ie real estate, state taxes, gas tax, payroll), paid about as much in taxes to the US as they made in the US.
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g s and John,
Thanks for the well considered and supported arguments. I’m going back to the sources and if it’s all true I will have to factor that info into my thinking.
It’s amazing how it’s easier to hear what someone is saying when they are not shouting at you.
(I’m not referring to either of you.)
Thanks again for the information!
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All the tea partiers have been conditioned by Fox and right-wing radio to believe “you cannot tax the job creators.”
What the above tea partiers NEVER, EVER can prove is that tax cuts create jobs!
The rich are taxed at the lowest rate since 1955. The wealth-disparity is wider now than at any point since 1929.
Tea partiers buy what they’ve been sold on Fox and radio and spew email sent talking points (written by those working for by billionaire libertarians in shadow groups).
So for those not those don’d only navigate in right-wing circles, remember this: The rich don’t pay their fair share and tax cuts do not result in even modest job creation…provable by researching presidents since Ronnie held office.
The tea party has a coordinated, deliberate network in place to dominate message boards with mistruths. Do a ten minute google search on what I’m saying and decide for yourself.
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1929, 1929…something happened in 1929…gee I wonder what that was?
I’ll give a hint…it rhymes with rate supression
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It was enjoyable to read the Will and John discussion, and then alec has to intrude with his cut-and-paste bs.
alec, just because you repeat a lie it does not become a truth. We’ve been over this before, and I’ll keep posting the summary of this study. Hint: if you don’t understand an acronym, google it.
———————-
Large Changes in Fiscal Policy: Taxes Versus Spending
Alberto F. Alesina and Silvia Ardagna
We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in fiscal policy, both in cases of fiscal stimuli and in that of fiscal adjustments in OECD countries from 1970 to 2007. Fiscal stimuli based upon tax cuts are more likely to increase growth than those based upon spending increases. As for fiscal adjustments, those based upon spending cuts and no tax increases are more likely to reduce deficits and debt over GDP ratios than those based upon tax increases. In addition, adjustments on the spending side rather than on the tax side are less likely to create recessions. We confirm these results with simple regression analysis.
… NBER Working Paper No. 15438 Issued in October 2009 NBER Program(s): POL
We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in …
This paper is available online for purchase. – http://www.nber.org/papers/w15438 – 24k – 2009-10-22
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I’ll use your flawed logic alec…
All the liberls have been conditioned by CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC and left-wing media to believe “the rich aren’t taxed enough & need to pay their fair share.”
What the above liberals NEVER, EVER can prove is what much income makes one to be considered RICH and how much % of taxation will ever be enough!
Blah, blah, blah…
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Oh goody! We get to watch politicians spew rhetoric, make promises and then forget everything they promised the voters after one of them gets elected.
C’mon people, start grasping the reality of American politics: Republicans and Democrats are simply two different piles of the same crap!
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