by INFORUM
Red River Diversion: Will the sun set on Oxbow? ity united in opposition tocurrent plan
January 19, 2011 at 6:00 pm in INFORUM
HICKSON, N.D. Whether Oxbow residents stand their ground and fight the current diversion plan or demand buyouts for the entire city, Mayor Jim Nyhof said they need to do it together. Continue Reading
This diversion is a waste, people need to get away from the river and let it flow where it is. Money would be better spent widening and increasing the banks of where the river is now along with the use of impoundments. Also i refuse to help sandbag or help anybody along the river with their flood issues…come on people you know theres a chance of flooding every year….get away from the river. Should be laws and regulations on how close people can build to it. Another thing that irks me is the farmers in the area…. you contribute to this flooding issue with your drainage ditches, pipes and farming practices.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I could not agree more. I havnt lived in Fargo all that long but have seen the river flood every year I have been here. Why in the world would you build a house or live by the river? There is no reason anyone should live near the river. Tell me how many major floods in the last hundred years have there been?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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According to Hydrological Data from NOAA there have been 16 in the last 100 years. This is using the 30 foot mark to identify a major flood.
In addition, it shows that we have had 4 of our top 7 record crests within the last 10 years.
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Keep in mind as well that a 30′ flood may technically be considered “major” but it doesn’t impact Oxbow and only has a minor impact on FM as a whole.
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Why do you suppose it is that we have flooded more in the last ten years? You suppose it has anything to do with people building in the flood plains where the water used to go? Farmers building drain tile?
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No. People haven’t built in the known 100 year flood plains for decades. And drain tile is still frozen during the flooding.
The reason is the weather. Anybody bothering to look at the historical records can easily see this.
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Surface ditching helps to remove the last bit of water from a field so that it dries somewhat evenly. It doesn’t matter how steep your ditching is when there’s a foot of water on it.
Tile drainage helps to remove subsoil water from a field. This actually increases the amount amount of water that a field can hold during a rain event. So when there is rain fall, more water is absorbed by the soil rather than being surface runoff, or in most cases, ponding in the field. Of course the dynamics of tile drainage is affected by the topsoil being frozen in the winter. I’m not sure how much water frozen soil can absorb.
In either case farmers weren’t hitting the fields while the Red was flooding. I doubt you could find a dry field anywhere in the valley while people were throwing sandbags.
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All the fields around here that have been supper groomed are part of the problem as the are designed to get the melting snow/water off as fast as possible and the rivers can’t flow fast enough to take it away and it starts to flood overland. All so the last few years there’s been a lot of rain then snow and quick thaws with frozen ground. No place for the water to go. Any one who doesn’t think these leveled and pot hole filling has had no impact on the flooding we are having has their head in a hole. This has only become a problem in about the last 10 or 12 years.
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well as for the farmers. There is a law that prevents farmers from draining the wet lands. If you drain the wet lands there are two gentlemen wearing guns who show up at your place and inform you that you have drained wetlands. You have a very short period of time to cover up any drain you may have made. Have you ever thought that just maybe the ground is just plain saturated with moisture? As for the people that moved next to the river, well they want to make laws for anything and everything, maybe someone should just make it illegal to move next to a flood plain. I believe the state could make millions. Look at the poor folks by devils lake, land they once farmed is now under water. Their great grandparents should have known better since we all knew that water was coming and it was going to flood. And people down stream from devils lake, can you imagine the revenue the state could make out of all of this?
So all in all, we are all in this together, no one really knew that the rain was going to come, in fact I hear devils lake was nearly dry just a few years back.
If you choose not to help anyone with sand bagging, remember what comes around goes around. Now let me make it clear, I live on a hill many miles from any body of water and if I ever have to sand bag, Fargo will no longer be in a town but a deep water, since I live on the divide. I can run the garden hose on the east side and it will go to fargo and the west side it will go to james river. But that does not mean I would never help out someone that is less fortunate.
I wish the best of Karma luck on you.
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They don’t catch many of them.
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all these tax dodgers created their own slice of heaven by building outside of Fargo city limits and now we are supposed to buy you out so you can do the same selfish Lifestyle elsewhere.Shame on you
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Yep!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Well buzz we pay taxes that are about the same as in Fargo maybe even more. we enjoy nice big yards and don’t have a house closer than 100 feet so we don’t have to listen the any ones music but our own.
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It’s funny that these people probably never consider whether their subdivision they call a town should have ever been built in the first place. Why would anyone put a 500k house next to a river that floods? Maybe their unsustainable lifestyle should be replaced? If not, aren’t there a lot of golf course communities around? They’re all the same anyway. You can’t convince me that Oxbow is somehow unique. It just floods more.
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Oxbow was there long before most of the houses that got buyouts in/near Fargo were built.
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Do you have proof of that? I lost my data on the age of houses that got buyouts in Fargo and can’t recreate it because those homes are off the tax rolls. I recall it was 1984. Only 2 or 3 were in the 80s. Don’t know the age of most homes in Oxbow.
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I built in the area in 1987 and at that time Oxbow had been there for many years
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I haven’t agreed with many of your comments, but I almost agree with this one. I lived in Florida for a few years knowing that I needed insurance in case of hurricanes. So, in Fargo I carry flood insurance. Realistically, the past few years have been way worse than the norm for flooding. We carry insurance “in case” of an incident. We carry insurance for our cars, our health, our lives, etc “just in case”. We all take a risk of our vehicle being smashed to pieces every time we go out to drive. These people know the risks. If they are unprepared, they are the ones who will suffer the consequences of losing their home. Yeah, we taxpayers are paying for a diversion and what not, but we are choosing to live here, so it comes with the territory.
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Piranha – the farmers were here long before you and will be here when you’re long gone. Farming isn’t the problem.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Yes, but the farming practices have become irresponsibe! Farmers are systematically removing wetlands and digging drainage ditches to shed water more quickly in the spring just so they can get out in their fields a little earlier.
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Those ditches are under 1′ of water in the spring. How are they adding to the speed of the water getting to the river. Plus the culvert size regulates the speed of the water flow and have they been increased in size…No
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Actually, there is something fishy going on with the culverts… my guess is someone has their hands in the county’s pockets. Drive out north of West Fargo on CR 17 this spring either before or after the road is cut off from flooding. I guarantee you the west side (where all the houses & development are) will have water up to the road yet the east side (farmer’s fields) will be completely dry. In 2009 they had started working the field before we could even drive to our house! We had a culvert right in our yard and it was the water coming through there from the east side of the road that surrounded our house and cut us off… not the river in our backyard.
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The water/river is on that west side though and the water from the the east side of 17 drains west to the Sheyenne. The road is a big dam, and they just made it higher which will block more water to the west…That is the County, not the farmers
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I’ve seen what cpeteoo is alluding to, and it cements the theory that the water is getting to the rivers way too fast.
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I guess I dont understand if they were in the fields and the water was coming from their side to yours….planting cotton?
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And the Indians were here before the farmers were. Don’t know what my point is…
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I for one don’t feel sorry for Oxbow residents. If you remember when the diversion was changed the mayor (or spokesperson) of Oxbow was quoted in the paper as saying that his community was in unaminous support of the county sales tax and would have thought different if they knew the diversion was gonna be changed. So here is the problem, they were willing to pay for someone else to lose theirs but now that the tide has turned they want our sympathy. I think NOT. They should have been skeptical of the county sales tax and shouldn’t have foolishy believed Vanyo and King Denny. I for one think those two knew before the vote what was going to happen and kept that information from the public so they could get this ridiculous tax passed. I don’t trust those two lying politicians.
As for Oxbow, you have no sympathy, you were all too willing to sell someone else down the river by the comments on how your citizenry voted (I know not all may have voted this way, but the mayor made it seem so), now you are crying foul.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
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Same with WF. The county vote that Fargo passed will be one of the worst used form of legislation that that county has done. Would be good to get some representation on the county commission that actually lives or cares about the county outside of Fargo.
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the representation would be based on population and i hate to break it to you but Fargo is the population. All the other towns combined don’t come close to Fargo, doesn’t mean I like it but it is a fact and if we don’t like it, well i guess we should move then.
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The county is broken up into districts though, but is voted on by the whole population of the county.
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They can all sit around holding hands, singing “Kumbaya”, and say we are all in this together.
I guarantee when the first homeowner gets offered a buyout they’ll gobble it up like Rosie O’Donnell and a Big Mac.
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Oxbow is a nice peaceful community.They are people who enjoy the small town atmosphere.It doesn’t appeal to everyone to live in a larger community.I live in a small town and my taxes are really not less than I would pay in Fargo.Small communities have their own expenses and less people to spread them around.
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Riddle me this……Ok i get the small town thing but the flooding river every year thing? To me if I am building or buying a house and I would never think….”Oh the red river floods every couple to every year….oh the towns have to gather volunteers to fill sandbags…oh those sandbags protect peoples houses next to the river so they dont flood….oh ok YEP I AM GOING TO BUILD/BUY my house next to the river…….”
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Flooding has only become an annual problem in the last decade or so… we bought a CENTENNIAL farm north of West Fargo the summer before the West Fargo diversion was completed. The house was less than a 100 yards from the Sheyenne but had never “flooded”. That first spring, we were fine until they opened the West Fargo diversion for the first time, all of a sudden overnight we became an island. The river never did breach its banks by us but we were surrounded by overland flooding from the east EVERY YEAR. In 2009 our house was an island and we had to pump water from our basement for three months. We learned our lesson the hard way and finally got out last year. Its such a relief not to have to worry about the water this spring!
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One thing about flood mitigation….it will always cause more problems than it solves unless you have a place for the water to go.
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Bryan That water should not go where the ground is higher than ground that the proposed diversion is meant to protect.
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Don: I totally agree. Note that I am against a diversion of any kind.
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Sounds like that diversion worked really well for you. Not!
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Its not that I dont care what happens to them, I just dont understand why they would build big house next to a flooding river a river that floods every year? I would like someone from Oxbow to answer that one? Dont worry I’ll wait!
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They have done a pretty good job of handling the river, its the diversion that would flood them out when the water backs up on them
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Ok……If you gave these facts to a grade schooler…The Red River floods every year whether its is a major or minor flood it floods. People have to sandbag houses every year to protect themselves from the flood. Some house are being bought out because of this. YES OR NO do you buy a house or build a house on the red river??????
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I don’t live in Oxbow, but am familiar with the area, and I would say they have only had to sandbag 3-4 times in the past 25 years. The diversion would bury them though. That is the issue now, not the yearly minor-major natural flooding.
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The issue is that Oxbow voted for a tax that would have buried other areas upstream and didn’t think twice about them, now we are supposed to care about them when they didn’t care about what happened to others as long as they were safe. Short sighted and narrowly NIMBY minded in my opinion.
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People in Oxbow have not been sandbagging every year. They have sandbagged the last two years and a couple times more over the previous 13 years, and not for decades prior to that. At least not that I’m aware of. No different than most of FM. People living there can correct me if I’m off on that. And none of them were built in the 100 year flood plain that was current at the time they were built. The known flood plain has changed and this has affected the entire region, not just these people.
Some people just don’t seem to get that most of FM is at risk of flooding, not just the homes by the river. In fact, my Moorhead home which is near (but not on) the river is on higher ground than most of Fargo.
100 year floods are not a big deal. If they only happen every 100 years. Obviously our understanding of what constitutes a 100 year flood and where safe building areas are has changed quite a bit over the past 14 years and that’s what the real problem is.
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Liberty said “The issue is that Oxbow voted for a tax that would have buried other areas upstream and didn’t think twice about them, now we are supposed to care about them when they didn’t care about what happened to others as long as they were safe. Short sighted and narrowly NIMBY minded in my opinion.”
I under stood that that tax vote was independent of any thing the corp was or did suggest as far as a diversion and remember folks saying Fargo was putting the cart before the horse/Jumping the gun with that flood tax. Most who voted for it thought it was for fargo to use fighting their flood by putting in place Flood walls and dikes like east of south university near 52nd ave south.
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Every year people have to shovel their walks, clean their gutters, replace some shingles, mow their lawns, etc. If you live in the country you may have to plow your own road. It all depends on what you’re willing to put up with for living where you do. Hurricanes and tropical storms hit the coasts EVERY year. There is no such thing as a safe haven. If your response to that has to do with expecting tax money to help defend your home, then why should tax money go to plow roads, build schools, employ firefighters, police, paramedics?
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Ever think Fargo should just shore up and block the red and see where it goes? I suspect it would make it’s own diversion to the west. Bring the dikes up to 46+ across the city! The diversion is still a decade away if ever it comes.
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Seems everybody who is going to feel the pain of the diversion (WF, Oxbox, down stream towns, etc.) gets no benefit from it. The only city that appears to not have to experience any pain, Fargo, is the only one that benefits. BOY, I DIDN’T SEE THAT ONE COMING! FARGO SCREWING THEIR NEIGHBORS OVER FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT. THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.
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Oxbow-Hickson, Hickson-Oxbow. What about the Bakke Edition across the street? The smarter people who did not build right on the river but are still being flooded. We are forgotten about because we don’t have the money Oxbow does or a Mayor. Are we going to be offered a but-out? Do we have a say in the diversion or a dyke?
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What good is a dyke going to do?
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I think you mean ‘dike’. If you did mean ‘dyke’, you’re going to need more than one.
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No we don’t and Oxbow does not have a say as well. so much for being a city with a Mayor.
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Has anyone heard any explanation WHY the city of Fargo cannot protect itself with permanent diking vs. the temporary diking which has successfully protected the city up until this point. If not, what are we suppose to conclude from this? A few Fargo property owners cannot accept the changes that Grand Forks had to make and have adequate clout with persons in leadership roles who are in a position to stop any effort to make the temporary dikes into permanent dikes? Outside the Fargo city limits, the small communities have to protect themselves with levees which were built years ago because of the continual flood threat. They have survived….so what is the problem in Fargo other than the “not in my backyard†attitude? A few communities in other parts of the country are protected with levees year around, New Orleans comes to mind, but there are others also. A levee works for them, why can’t it work for Fargo?
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Because Fargo wants it on the ND side so that when Devils Lake starts spilling over they will have some protection.
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When Devils Lake lets go that diversion won’t help any one living in the area. When asked the corp of engineers said at a flood meeting about 1 1/2 years ago that they had NOT looked in to that and that was the end of that conversation. They ( the corp) did not want to talk about that..
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It will rush though VC, Lisbon, and then to Kindred where it meets the open valley and spread out. It won’t even get to the diversion since it will be going overland across Kindred, Horace, Davenport and working it’s way north west of the proposed diversion.
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you sir are correct
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When that water meets the open valley just east of Kindred and escapes it’s banks, it’s less than 4 miles and 12 feet down hill till there’s water in the Wild Rice.
I’m not sure how fast it will release out of Devils Lake, but if it does it on it’s own I would bet it will be more than a trickle.
Just because the CORPS hasn’t looked into it, doesn’t mean it won’t be a problem.
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It’s not like all of the water in Devil’s Lake is going to get to the Red River Valley all at the same time.
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Maybe not, but the thought of all that DL water coming here is still something that everyone needs to consider.
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I’m actually writing a research paper on that very topic at the moment. The interesting thing is, for Devils Lake and Stump Lake to rise another four feet, the stage at which it will begin to seep into the Sheyenne River, it would require an amount of water equivelant to about 25% of what is already in Devils Lake due to the extremely large surface area it would create.
However, if you have any sources that back up what you are saying about the geological nature of the coulee that connects Stump Lake to the Sheyenee River, I woudly greatly appreciate a link. It would help me a great deal in my project. Information on the geology of the Devils Lake and Red River basin is actually somewhat difficult to come by as fascinating as it is to research.
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Bryan
I am a met up at NWS Grand Forks and on an earlier post you mentioned about precip being below normal over the past 11 years. That is not true….using data from cooperative observers and Fargo Hector field and Grand Forks shows that most of the past 11 years have been above normal in precip.
Using Fargo Hector field….the NCDC 1971-2000 normals which are the latest available…shows a normal average yearly precip for Fargo of 21.19 inches.
Annual precip
1997….25.84
1998….31.75
1999….20.25
2002….24.81
2003….18.42
2004….25.99
2005….30.44
2006….17.15
2007….26.23
2008….30.82
2009….24.89
2010….29.48
So only 3 of the past 14 years has seen below average precip in Fargo.
For Devils Lake…the cooperative observer is KDLR and using data from the High Plains Climate Center shows that the NDCC normal yearly precip for Devils Lake is 18.93 inches.
1998….16.21
1999….18.51
2000….23.91
2001….19.54
2002….17.16
2003….18.31
2004….21.05
2005….21.13
2006….13.10
2007….19.92
2008….24.57
It must also be pointed out that KDLR precip data is a bit more suspect and data for most of 2009 and 2010 was not avialable.
So without a doubt above average precip and snowfall does contribute to the flood issues over the past 15 years.
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I believe you’ll find even more telling numbers if you just look at the spring ground saturation and winter precipitation.
It isn’t rocket science, and there certainly aren’t any easy answers like “plugging the fields”. People seem to forget the 1897 flood was prior to all the development and drainage that is such a popular scapegoat.
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Oh for Pete’s sake, you certainly aren’t trying to compare any of these current floods with floods of a hundred years ago are you? The river doesn’t even run in the same place, let alone the infrastructure that’s in place now versus then.
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Yes, I am. It shows that the main contributer to the high river levels is the weather. Which some people are trying to dispute.
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Because it is incorrect. Over 400,000 acres of wetlands have been drained in the Red River and Devils Lakes basins. Even though these wetlands were drained years ago, they have a continual annual impact on the levels of our rivers. Look at it this way. If you had three bowls and were adding one cup of water to these bowls per day, you would likely never have to worry about any of those bowls overflowing. However, if you were to fill each of those bowls with water and then immediately drain them into a fourth bowl, it would overflow within a couple of days.
The fact is, the North Dakota Water Commission predicted that there would be severe flood problems in the Red River Valley and the Devils Lake basin as far back as 1979 if we continued to let these wetlands drain unabated. Their prediction has come true.
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I’m not saying draining wetlands has no impact on river levels. However the precipitation and timing of that precipitation is the root cause of our major problems the past 14 years. And the river got just as high BEFORE the wetlands were drained.
I just don’t understand why somebody wouldn’t acknowledge that. The evidence couldn’t be much clearer.
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Well, the Fargo precipitation levels aren’t really relevant to what’s happening in Devils Lake. But by my math, the numbers you posted are within a half inch of the average in Devils Lake (which is apparently the best data we have).
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THe problem with temporary levees is that they shut down a good portion of an important corridor of the Fargo-Moorhead area. Furthermore, I’m not a fan of levees to start with. All the water that the levee holds back has to go somewhere.
We need to build reservoirs to hold this water until the river can handle it. That’s the only solution I can think of that will work without screwing anyone over.
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What important corridor would be shut down by a permanent levee? Other parts of the city have had to change, roads, routes going to the interstate highway etc. Over in Moorhead, they recently shut down the off and on ramps to Hiway 52. There are no plans of opening them back up. I guess citizens of Fargo have to weigh what is more important, provide permanent flood protection to the city, or keep building temporary levees every year so they can keep a couple of roads open. As for the amount of water displaced by creating a levee which would protect Fargo, I doubt if it would have any impact at all. A permanent levee isn’t going to displace any more water than a temporary levee and if you have ever looked at an aerial photo of the valley during a major flood, you would see that the amount of space that the city of Fargo occupies is actually quite small in comparison to the tens of thousands of acres that are under water.
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The 2nd St corridor between 4th St S and 7th Ave N would have to be permanently closed in order to accomodate a permanent dike. In this area, 2nd St not only happens to be a vital commercial corridor, but it also happens to be the main access point for the Fargo Police Department, City Hall, the Fargo Civic, and the Fargo Library.
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Elevate the road, bridge over the RR tracks. Why is there a tunnel right next to the river anyway?
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Huh…It’s funny all the people that have an opinion when they neither know the facts nor LIVE in the affected area. I live in the affected area and can say that the corp or engineers has teamed up with the leaders of fargo and shut everyone out of any mitigation attempts. Remember the western alignment of the diversion west of west fargo to save that power substation?? After a 45 minute powerpoint presentation showing all the positives of “saving” the power station, the corp “czar” Aaron snyder shot it down without breaking a sweat. That is just one example of how unwilling the corp and fargo is of modifying or CONSIDERING modifying the diversion plan. Anyone brought up the idea or how this is going to affect the kindred school district?? No?? Really?? Wow….displacing all the people in the path of this proposed diversion would be a significant loss to the kindred school system. Oh…And isn’t it a little coincidental that the proposed area the diversion will be built on the south side of fargo is 200 FEET SOUTH of the fargo school district line?? Hmmmm Interesting fargo….
And everyone complaining that the Oxbow/Hickson/Bakke people were “tax dodgers” by building south of town is a bunch of crap. It’s simple. We don’t want to live in your big urban area with exhorbent taxes and excess EVERYTHING!! Everyone lives out there to get away from the big city mentality of not knowing your neighbors and being confined to your little 1/64 acre lot that you pay $2,500+ a year in taxes to fargo so that your street is lit, your batteries get changed in the clock going into your subdivision and you have police patrol regularily. I’m not saying those aren’t ‘nice things’ to have, but the people of the affected area obviously found it more important to live in a quiet, tight knit community than to make sure there side walk is plowed after 1/2″ of snow have fallen.
No one from the affected area is looking for a handout. We just want to be treated FAIRLY!!! Fargo’s flood protection is affecting the livelyhood of a lot of people that otherwise wouldn’t have been affected as severly! So all I ask is that you read the information and look deeper into what’s going on before you make wild accusations. Anyway, I’m done….Gotta go shopping for a raft!!
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But according to the words from your own mayor you were all too willing to let others be flooded by your vote in support of the county sales tax because you thought it would benefit you and to heck with how it affected others. Your residents had little or no sympathy for others but now expect us to have some for you. Don’t you think the residents you didn’t care if they were going to be flooded wanted to be treated fairly as well in the beginning.
No you people blindly followed the arrogance of King Denny and Vanyo and thought you were going to be saved and now you cry, what a bunch of whining hypocrits.
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First of all he isn’t my mayor. But he has been a great representative of the affected area of this diversion. Yes, a lot of ‘individuals’ voted for the sales tax hike for flood protection. But, to my knowledge was there a flood “plan” in place when we went to the polling stations?? No. It was a sales tax hike for “flood protection” that’s it. Was there any analysis done of how the whapeton diversion has affecting everyone since they put it in? Hmmm in the words of the corp “we didn’t have the analytical technology at that time”. Convenient huh? All I’m saying is everyone wants to be treated FAIRLY…Nothing more. We are just trying to make the powers that be have some consideration for others beyond the Fargo city limits for which this diversion is directly designed for. And we want your elected officials to be more transparent with us on there decisions also! It seems like they have an ulterior motive on what there plans are and aren’t going to let the affected parties know about it until it’s too late for mitigation. We just want to be in the loop of planning is all and not caught with our pants down.
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The downstream communities were looking for those same things from the metro flood study group as the projected crests downstream kept getting higher and higher each time an update was given.
Best of luck to you on that.
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I see a problem here..
“And everyone complaining that the Oxbow/Hickson/Bakke people were “tax dodgers†by building south of town is a bunch of crap. It’s simple. We don’t want to live in your big urban area with exhorbent taxes and excess EVERYTHING!!”
1. Oxbow/Hickson/Bakke people were “tax dodgersâ€
2. We don’t want to live in your big urban area with exhorbent taxes and excess EVERYTHING!!”
1. Tax Dodgers
2. Taxes
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Hey Maverick, don’t be upset that we were SMART enough to buy out there and got 3 times the house and 3 times the property than you did. It’s O.K. dude people make mistakes. Enjoy your small house with the neighbor that you can touch out the window.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I’m not upset.. I just pointed out the jc is a liar is all. He stated that they weren’t tax dodgers but they moved out there to avoid the taxes. That would be a tax dodger if i ever saw one.
If oxbow wants to be saved from the floods let them come up with their own tax initiatives to save their property.. Don’t tax me or use my tax dollars to buy out your houses when i build my place on property that is good to 43+ feet.
I don’t care what the history of the flooding in oxbow ‘has’ been. Anyone with half a brain knows what an oxbow in a rivers purpose is… Guess the people out there thought they were above nature is all.
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If oxbow wants to be saved, let them come up with their own tax initiative?? REALLY?? We all know this is just to protect Fargo, so FARGO should be paying for this. But no we’re going to ask everyone to pay for it.
I live in West Fargo and have to pay for our diversion. I have to shop in Fargo because it is still the cheapest, so I get to pay for Fargo’s diversion. And yes still get to sandbag for them too when they flood. But then the kicker is I work in Kindred and if this diversion goes through and wipes out Oxbow now my job is in jeopardy too. Enough is enough Fargo. You want your own protection pay for it yourself and don’t have it affect anyone else.
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Liar? Really?….Huh, thought this was a civil blog. Well, I won’t lower myself to your level of understanding with that statement. You make it sound as if we were forced to live where we live because we didn’t want to shell out big property taxes. Wrong. As stated by ‘jfgiddy’, we realized you could get WAY more for your money by moving from the warm cozy confines of Fargo if you were willing to put up with a few less conveniences. Why didn’t you move out to Hickson/Oxbow/bakke maverick?? Walmart is to far away? You may have to actually work to clear your driveway of snow? MAT doesn’t make any stops out there? Gravel roads and you don’t mix? Makes me wonder. If Oxbow/Hickson/Bakke is so ‘inevitable’ to a major flooding event then we should buy-out Fargo/Moorhead too. One reason: They are down hill from us…..But, Hey….Those communities upstream don’t matter that much anyway…I mean they have only been holding the rural population together for 120+ years….They can just ‘take one for the team’ right?!?!….Less wasted ink the next time they print a ND map right!??!
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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*Applause* That’s great maverick! Have you gone to a flood meeting? I’m glad you pay your taxes like I do….I’d hate to have to label you as a “tax dodger”…OOPS!…I guess you’ve already thrown that word around a little bit. I have no clue huh? Ok….I’m just inconsiderate to the feelings of fargo and there diversion. Crap….Your right…I guess I should have looked at that $150,000 750 sq. foot house in the rough part of fargo with $20,000 in specials and $2,000 in taxes every year, a little harder. I’m glad your house and business are taken care of maverick with the diversion…That’s ALL that is important to ME!
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@jc
never said i lived in Fargo. I mearly called you out as a lair because you said you didn’t move out there to be a tax dodger, but in almost every response since that point, you have proven my point. You are not living in Fargo because of the taxes.
With that being said, you shouldn’t be looking to Fargo to fix your problem. Your not part of their tax base, sales taxes yes but that is all.
Your kind of like those people who build next to the interstate and then complain about the noise.
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“Everyone lives out there to get away from the big city mentality of not knowing your neighbors and being confined to your little 1/64 acre lot that you pay $2,500+ a year in taxes to fargo so that your street is lit, your batteries get changed in the clock going into your subdivision and you have police patrol regularily. I’m not saying those aren’t ‘nice things’ to have, but the people of the affected area obviously found it more important to live in a quiet, tight knit community than to make sure there side walk is plowed after 1/2″ of snow have fallen.” I don’t think this is “tax dodging” as you put it maverick…I think it’s smart home ownership with a side of incovenience of having to drive 12 miles for a gallon of milk. Something everyone in the affected area deals with and doesn’t complain about….until of course someone pushes there diversion on us and has us “take one for the team” without our voices being heard. My house was built in 1949 and has NEVER been flooded…but with the diversion, it’s going to store up to 7 feet of EXTRA water on top of us. Disheartening to say the least….
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Your house hasn’t flooded due to the efforts of college, high school and other community people who took time out to come out and sandbag. Make sure you include that in your explanation when you say your place hasn’t flooded ok.
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You are correct in that the community came together for us in 2009 when we had issues with some water…but I think a quick fact to point out is: Our area ISN’T in the flood plain.
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Are you some kind of new troll or what what part of 10 to 17 FEET higher then Fargo is it that you don’t understand? Oxbow has had to sand bag a few times but not Hickson or Bakke because of the red flooding. Homes north of us and Oxbow along the Red have had flooding problems, all so homes along the wild rice river just west of highway 81 those places are all much lower than most of Oxbow and all of Bakke and Hickson along with point south and west. You need to get Informed.
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It’s NOT about TAX’S fool it’s about living where one want’s to. Try getting that through that overly thick skull of yours. We can do things out here that can’t be done in Fartgo or Morehead. Most of us that live in the country would say living in the above crap holes would be more like being in Hell.
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Why get rid of anitpete? He/she has every right to be on this comment blog as you do.
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With all due respect the mayor of Oxbow side stepped the issue of the Oxbow voters voting for their protection at the demise of others on the radio – with that kind of non response it makes me less likely to have sympathy for Oxbow and their residents.
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Oxbow Oxbow Oxbow, again what about the Bakke Edition. They have had no pull or say in anything.
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You want to know the one thing I don’t get? How anyone living anywhere in Fargo can be dumb enough to call Oxbow residents “dumb” for living on the river, when the whole city of Fargo is on the river. If the dikes broke at those levels, the whole flippin’ city would be under. No one area is “dumber” than the other because we’re ALL stupid for living here. I say let it flood. Let it happen like what happened to Grand Forks. Wipe it all out and start over. You can’t control mother nature, and if Fargo is in its path, Fargo needs to go or do some MAJOR rebuilding. Civic Center needs to go. Oak Grove needs to go. Rose Creek, Timberline, all those areas are always under water..they need to go. This area is LOW. The whole area…not just the homes next to the river. Those home are saving Fargo by allowing their beautiful yards to be dug up for dikes. I love this city. I grew up here, but it has to change. Wipe it out and start clean.
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Anyone who has lived around here scene before Fargo’s south city limit line was 13th ave south know that a lot of the land south of Fargo to just beyond the slough that’s called Rose creek now was subjected to Flooding and some was wet most of the year. the same goes for land south of main ave along the west side of I29 down past west acres then southwest of there to the sheyenne river. Makes me wonder what the regulations were for the developers were who built on all that low land??
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I looked for months for a piece of land that was close to town and out of the flood zone to build our home on. When I found this property and was told it was out of the flood zone and close to town we bought it. that was in 1987 and over the years we have never had to really worry about the river. Now for those uninformed people that say we are tax dodgers, the taxes I pay living here near Oxbow are just as high as if I was in Fargo, they may even be higher. I live here because I didn’t want to put up with all the crap that goes on in town. There is no one running around cutting tires, shooting out car windows or in general vandalizing our property like in Fargo. Everyone knows their kids are safe in our little subdivision because we all know who our neighbors are. I can walk out my door and ride off on my snowmobile, atv or other toys, try that living in Fargo And if the cops catch you you won’t be very happy. Now back to the diversion, it will back flood water on to land that is 10 to 17 feet higher than Most of the city of Fargo.And most of Fargo is lower than 900 ft above sea level . My property is 917 ft above sea level so you can see why we who live south of Fargo are to mad and upset over what’s going on after we made sure to build our homes high enough to avoid
flooding. So before you people living in Fargo start shooting of your mouths maybe you should be a little bit better informed.
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Wow. I am seeing a lot of thinly veiled jealousy of those who live in the nicer areas outside of town e.g. Oxbow as well as Rose Creek, Timberline, etc… You wannabes should learn how to hide your “green eyed monsters” better.
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@maverick, I guess I’ve exhausted all efforts to remove you from your ignorance with this issue. And you obviously don’t see it from the affected areas side at all. So instead of watching you attempt to defend yourself on this issue, that frankly you really aren’t educated on, I will let you have your opinion and stop trying to voice mine to you….It’s just not sinking in. I’ll let you borrow my shovel when we are filling sandbags at the dome…..
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He is a business owner and pays more in tax’s than most earn, knows it all, and doesn’t know he is thought of as a …………….. and can’t get it through that thick skull of his. He can’t or won’t see the big picture.
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The Diversion is and always has been ONLY about Fargo. They couldn’t give a rat’s backside about anyone else in the county. Flood out the small communities downstream? No problem. Destroy a small community upstream (Oxbow/Hickson/Baakke)? Why not? Screw over Kindred/Davenport and the rural community by 1) eliminating a large portion of the school district’s tax base (Oxbow/Hickson/Baakke), 2) backing up the Sheyenne and Wild Rice rivers even more and making communities that are 10-15 miles away from the Red have to deal with major flooding, 3) Making us pay to get screwed just so Fargo can be dry. Hey thats a good idea, lets do that. I’ll gladly put in as much time as I can to help my neighbors and the people in these areas, but rest assured I’ll never throw another sandbag for the City of Fargo again.
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And all of this just to save a few Fargo streets and some homes which are too close to the river anyway? This is what Bryan seems to think. If the leadership in Fargo think that somehow they are going to devise and implement a scheme which will somehow make the entire city of Fargo entirely oblivious to any flood threat, I think they are not only wasting their time and ours, but also wasting a lot of hard earned tax payers money. Baddoctorfrost has a good point. Fargo needs to get serious about addressing flooding issues WITHIN Fargo city limits and quit planning on solving their problems by creating problems for others, whether they are upstream, downstream, in West Fargo or wherever. Now that this tax increase has been passed, we will all pay for whatever Fargo residents decide….even if that means that our property outside of Fargo is under water.
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If we don’t provide a place for the water to go, we will never solve this problem. Unfortunately, all of the places where the water used to go are now occupied by homes.
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Unfortunately, all of the places where the water used to go are now occupied by homes.
No truer words have ever been spoken.. Very good comment Bryan and a big thumbs up to you.
Unfortunately the people that bought those homes are the ones that need protection and it’s costing others elsewhere that were smart enough to build out of the flood plain that will be flooded if that damn diversion gets built.
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Last fall, I was in the southern part of the Twin Cities while the Minnesota River was overflowing its banks. Amazingly, no one’s home was ever in jeopardy. Why? Because no one had a home within a mile of the riverbank.
That’s what the whole problem is in Fargo. All of the land by the river needs to be bought up and turned into areas where the water is allowed to flow freely. Every time someone builds a dike, someone else gets screwed.
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Someone HAS to build a levee somewhere. The land in the valley is flat and without a levee, the entire basin for at least five miles either side of the river will be flooded. The city of Fargo creates a bottleneck in the river, every single flood. The difference between a temporary levee and a permanent one is the same. So turning a temporary levee into something permanent is going to have absolutely no impact on anyone who hasn’t already been impacted. The only difference is, the permanent levee is within Fargo city limits and within the JURISDICTION of Fargo….not on the private property of those who moved out of Fargo because they were tired of Fargo taxes, Fargo rules, noise, lack of privacy, noisy trains etc. etc.
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Every time you build a levee, you create a need for a levee somewhere else. That water has to go somewhere.
The first thing Fargo needs to do is curb its extraterritorial growth and concentrate on improving existing infrastructure.
Plus, I think that it needs to be abundantly clear that the most important thing Fargo (and Moorhead) had done in the flood control battle is reclaiming some of the adjacent land next to the river to provide area for the river to expand when it floods.
I can support permanent levees that are built a good half mile away from the river. I cannot support permanent levees build right on the river banks because these levees will only make future floods worse by forcing the water that would have breached those areas into other areas.
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I’ve addressed the Minnesota river example before. It’s not apples to apples because they just barely topped their “major” flood stage, while we were almost 11 feet above our “major” flood stage.
I do agree with curbing growth until they have adequate protection in place.
But as for the rest, keep in mind that in 2009 just north of town here the river spread out to over 7 miles wide. Ripping out everything a mile wide through the city, which would basically destroy both downtowns, isn’t realistic.
It’s fine to have alternate ideas, but you need to be realistic about them. Permanent levees would basically be no different than what we have done during 1997 and 2009. The waffle plan is another plan that sounds good on the surface, but proponents have yet to put together a plan that would actually work.
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The ground in the Tolna Coulee (where Devils Lake will spill into) is pure silt, blown in there during the Dust Bowl. Once the water starts flowing through it, it will open up quickly and there will be a rush of water exiting the lake. What everyone is also not taking into consideration is Lake Ashtabula, if Devils Lake goes, it won’t take long and Baldhill Dam will go as well. Then you have all THAT water added to the problem. If Baldhill suffers catastrophic failure, Valley City will be under water in 10 minutes. Then Kathryn. Then Fort Ransom. Then Lisbon. And within a few days, all that water spills out into the Red River Valley and will head for Kindred, Davenport, Walcott, etc. Welcome back Lake Agassiz…
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Actually, just by knowing the name of the coulee that connects Devils Lake to the Sheyenne River, I have been able to pull up a wealth of information.
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Just thought I’d like to point out some facts that I have found researching the Tolna Coulee and the Devils Lake Basin.
1) The Tolna Coulee will not wash out if Stump Lake overflows. The North Dakota Geological Survey has debunked this myth a long time ago. The soil composition of the Tolna Coulee is many times more course than that of the Red River Valley, and history shows us that it was not wiped out any of the other three times that Devils Lake overflowed.
2) Precipitation in the Devils Lake Basin and the Red River Valley has been below average for the past 11 years. This means that the rise of Devils Lake must be attributed to other factors. Does anyone suppose that over 189,000 acres of drained wetlands in the Devils Lake Basin alone might have somethign to do with it? Did anyone know that over three times that number of acres of wetlands have been drained in the Red River Valley? Can you imagine the impact THAT has had?
3) If Stump Lake overflows into Stump Lake, the North Dakota Geological Survey has estimated that the maximum amount of water that would be flowing into the Sheyenne river is approximately 500 cubic feet per second with a more likely flow of about 20% of that.
4) In 1976, the North Dakota State Watershed Commission predicted catastrophic flooding in the Devils Lake basin if unabated drainage of wetlands was allowed to continue.
The more I read about the flooding problems in the Red River Valley, the more convinced I become that the solution to the problem is very simple. Plug the farmers’ drains and allow as much water to evaporate from the fields as possible.
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funny u all blame the farmer….what happens when it rains in town…where does that water go??? storm sewer..go along 45th street and look to the east side of that road..the city of fargo last year add culverts and replace culvert and they let the water run to the north to a large pump..when the water get so high the pump kick in…so when there is flooding the (city) force the water on someone else…there are many more pumps like this in the city…
400,000 acres??? where did u get this figure at?
now in devils lake the are pumping the water out of the lake…sure at a controled level…..but someone else is getting that water, not natually…did u know way back when they changed the waterway and changed drain to get water back into devils lake because it was going dry..now they get all this water and are cry about saving the city??
go down buy fleet farm and see all that snow that is plyed up??? were is all that water going to do this spring?? that not natural is it?? who doing that??
so when u want to complain about farmers draining wet lands…look that what the city does…..and city people do….
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Those large piles of snow around town will melt a lot slower than the snow out in the fields. They won’t have a big impact on flooding. Fast melting snow else were will. It’s just to bad we can’t pile up all the snow, it’s ok to dream stupid dreams.
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where did u get that figure of 400,000 acres??
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