January 18, 2011 at 6:00 pm in INFORUM
45 percent of students show no significant improvement in key areas by end of second year Continue Reading
Tags: college, Higher Education 52 Comments »
I learned as much, if not more in my 8 month internship as I did in my 4 years of school. I feel that the requirement from my teachers to get an A or B in the class was much lower then the standards that my current employ has for me. If I want to get a raise today, according to my teachers in school I would have needed a 120-140% on all the tests and homework I did. Students today don’t seem to understand what is really required of them when they get to the real world and then complain when teachers make the test to hard or assigns a few hours of homework. So, the teacher in fear of getting a bad review, makes things easy and lets students slide by with less then needed knowledge to really do a good job at the next level.
Rather then preparing the student for the next level like school is supposed to do, it just gives them the idea that they don’t need to work that hard to prepare themselves to succeed in the workplace because no one has every really required it of them. Then they complain when they can’t find a job or get laid off because the work isn’t of high quality or is not getting done.
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By now everyone should realize that school doesn’t really prepare anyone for the real world. High school doesn’t, college doesn’t, post-graduate programs don’t, etc. They only teach people to follow directions.
The people that truly change the world and are the most successful rarely do so because of anything they’ve learned in school. Most of the richest and most successful people in the US are either college drop-outs or didn’t go to college at all.
â€œIt is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.â€
Hot debate. What do you think? 15 18
Most of the people down at the poverty level didn’t go to college at all either. The game changers typically aren’t doing it because of their college education, but pointing out outliers as your example doesn’t make for a strong argument. It’s like picking people who won the lottery as your model, not something you should rely on.
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Higher education is not and was never designed to “prepare anyone for the real world.” At least not in the way of teaching on-the-job skills and how to get rich, as you seem to insinuate here.
It IS designed to instill curiosity about the world and about knowledge, and Einstein—despite the pithy-yet-out-of-context quote you offer—was well aware of that.
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Exactly. Ignoring the fact that way too many people who are not qualified to go to university do (higher education should be based on academic merit, not financial standing), higher education is aimed at providing an environment to become educated in the fundamentals necessary for a given intellectual pursuit. Unfortunately, far too many new students must walk through remedial classes that should have been covered in their secondary education. Unfortunately, the rigors of higher education have been watered down at most non-world class schools due to financial troubles and accusations of bias.
Of course, I am biased as a scientist and an engineer. We are driven to address our curiosity. We are provided with the avenues to learn the maths and physics necessary to carry out intellectual challenges that will be put before us in industry. Sadly even this is breaking down as requires are relaxed and things such as computers allow the truly gifted to create applications for the ungifted to “plug in” a problem and arrive at an answer that they have no real ability to understand.
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I don’t completely agree. Whether or not college prepares you for your career depends largely on your major. A theater or university studies degree will do far less for your career than an engineering or pharmacy degree. Many other degrees are all about indoctrination into a certain way of thinking, and the lib arts credits are a complete waste of time. IMO of course.
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Sorry Justin, but I gotta disagree. My Liberal Arts degree prepared me for my chosen career as a designer much more than an engineering or pharmacy degree could have… : ) That said, there was much I needed to learn from college that I would not have learned on the job. Am I getting rich? Nope, but I’m doing what I want.
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yeah, but there are trade schools for your chosen field. It would have been cheaper and less time consuming than a 4 year liberal arts degree.
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if you look at the fortune 500, only a tiny handful don’t have real degrees from real schools.
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Is working at a fortune 500 company better than not working at a fortune 500 company?
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“Most of the richest and most successful people in the US are either college drop-outs or didnâ€™t go to college at all.”
I was talking about the 500 richest people. This idiot’s statement is completely false.
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???? I didn’t make a statement, but asked a question.
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“According to recent statistics from the United States Small Business Administration:
Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
Employ just over half of all private sector employees.
Pay 44 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
Have generated 64 percent of net new jobs over the past 15 years.
Create more than half of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).
Hire 40 percent of high tech workers (such as scientists, engineers, and computer programmers).
Are 52 percent home-based and 2 percent franchises.
Made up 97.3 percent of all identified exporters and produced 30.2 percent of the known export value in FY 2007.
Produce 13 times more patents per employee than large patenting firms; these patents are twice as likely as large firm patents to be among the one percent most cited.
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As an employer, a college diploma doesn’t necessarily mean you are an expert in your field. What it means is that you know enough to get started in your field, but most importantly that you started something and saw yourself to the end of it. It means I can expect a certain level of responsibility from the employee. Many times those who do not have a college diploma were involved in bad decisions in their early life, they have an upbringing that failed to instill the value of education (in my family is was “obvious” you would be going to college after high school), or somehow along the way they never got the message that a college diploma opens many more opportunities than a forklift license.
That’s just the way it is. I have friends who skipped college and now 10 years later are going back because the piece of paper is worth it in the long run.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 17 2
It does show a commitment to stick it out. The article is missing information as to what programs these people are in. The people who did the best were in the traditional majors.
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Drew, what percentage of your employees are college grads?
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The education racket won’t like this news.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 10 22
Apparently no one is shocked by this report. They system is set up to fail right from the start. In 4 years of undergrad I had maybe 5 profs that really taught me anything. A majority of college profs have NO real-world experience outside of academia, so should we expect students to really learn anything useful to their careers upon graduation? Vocational schools are on to something though. Relevant, practical training from day 1 often from real-world trained teachers. Universities could learn plenty from the vocational school business.
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It really depends what the field of study is. Liberal arts and family-type majors which are prevalent at schools like NDSU could realize a great deal of benefit from more applicable study. This is especially so for the family-type majors and select liberal arts programs which really don’t seem to have an intellectual basis in the first place (why are they even part of the university? Answer: they’re super cheap to run and help offset the costs of programs like engineering which cost far more).
The hard sciences, however, realize little from vocational education. This is expected to be learned on the job (i.e. entry level positions). The university is tasked with providing you with the fundamental understanding of the problems you will be face with on the job. This means math, physics, etc. It also means you are expected to be able to critically analyze a result that a vocationally-educated person would accept based on anecdotal evidence but is entirely incorrect. Sadly, this is becoming a much rarer practice. It is amazing how many students reach grad school and beyond without being able to critically analyze the work of others. That’s how bridges collapse and milk separators turn into bombs (a fun lab I gave to materials science undergraduates… An industrial milk separator – basically an 18″ diameter centrifuge with 1″ thick steel walls spinning at a few thousand RPM – exploded due to a cleaning agent which cause stress corrosion cracking. Steel shrapnel killed a few workers as a result. The plant engineer should have known better, but left it to the experienced technicians who did not possess the technical background to know better… The students were given some of the shrapnel and a brief background and access to pertinent analytical tools and expected to determine the cause of failure and how to correct for it in the future. Cool story bro, I know).
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College doesn’t “prepare you for the real world” but it should give you the necessary knowledge in your chosen field to be able to be competative in getting into the entry levels in your chosen field. You only get out of it what you put into it.
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Higher education is not referring to the classic sense: english, science, history.
It is referring to sex, drugs, jobs, and responsibility.
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This just shows that higher education is not for everyone and that it is a waste of time and money to give everyone a college degree. All it does for those that are not dedicated or capable is to put them or their families in debt.
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big surprise, no one learns anything in business departments. The classes I learned the most in in college were all in the math department.
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Haha, not surprising mgraalum that you discount the business department! I’ll offer to give you a few economics lessons if you’d like.
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i have a masters in economics, thanks anyways. Econ is in arts and sciences at UND so you don’t have to waste time and effort on worthless management and marketing classes.
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Here’s a great article on the economic effects of public policy.
The State Against Blacks
By JASON L. RILEY
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All that need to done to fix this is a couple tuition raises.
ABC Evening News reviewed the same study last night, and had shown a pie graph of how students use their time. Most of their time was spent socializing and working. It’s obvious that socializing too much is just being irresponsible; however, having to work while attending college is truly an injustice. In my view students should be learning and that’s it.
American students are primarily responsible for their poor performance, but universities and colleges also bear some responsibility. It starts with the way higher education has been set up.
Universities and colleges have been turned into businesses and are primarily concerned with revenue and growth. In the never ending quest to increase revenue and growth, administrators have decided to relax admission standards because they know the more students they have the more they can collect in tuition and fees. It is no longer important if students are ready for college because, if they are not ready, they can always pay for remedial courses offered by the university or college. Once students are in college, it is important to keep them there. Just imagine how much revenue would be lost if they kicked out the lowest performers? In order to keep students around, faculty are told by administrators to keep the GPA’s high. Everyone is given an A, or, at least, a B. If students receive anything less they complain and if they do not receive a better grade they consider spending their financial aid some where else. This, in turn, motivates administrators to get rid of those professors who actually have standards and do not believe in grade inflation.
Even though administrators have destroyed much of higher education with the business model, professors are also to blame. Instead of bringing their knowledge and expertise to the classroom, they choose to shirk their teaching duties by hiring adjuncts with grant money. For students, this means getting a third rate education. For professors, it means having more time to gain status through publication. Never mind the fact that most research published today is trivial and isn’t worth the paper it is printed on.
In addition to not having their priorities straight, professors have undermined critical thinking by allowing political correctness and epistemological relativism rule the classroom. Students are no longer given real feedback when they ramble, are incoherent, and make statements which are simply false. Instead, professors nod their heads, agree, simply move on, or change the subject. I suspect they do this because they don’t want to hurt students feelings, or they simply believe everyone’s point of view is correct! Either way, it’s a god damn shame because these students deserve better and they should at least be told when they look and sound like idiots.
Anyway, I have wrote enough. Again, my overall point is that students are primarily responsible for their academic failures, but administrators and faculty also have to bear some responsibility because they have allowed higher education to be run like a business. If we want to fix higher education and raise academic standards, we need to focus less on generating revenue and more on making learning our top priority.
or go back to the days when states properly funded their universities.
“In 2008, North Dakota spent 57% more per capita than the national average; yet, the proportion of adults with a bachelor’s degree in North Dakota was below the national average.”
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Michael, I both agree and disagree with you. What I disagree with is your statement that students should not be working while attending school. If part of our higher education is to teach young people to be good citizen,s is it beneficial to encourage them to go into tens of thousands of dollars in debt? Not everyones parents can afford to send them to college. It is getting more and more difficult to afford the ever increasing tuition. I spoke to my uncle while i attended college and he told me he could get a good part time job @ $2 and hour while paying $6 per credit to attend his college. Now days if a student can get a $10 an hour job they pay upwards of $200 per credit. Most students have to work in order to go to college.
What I agree with you on is that professors/instructors have to take a responsibility to educate thier students. I have never understood why attendance was so important to them. If a student is smart enough to pass the class without attending it, except for test days, that is the teachers problem not the students. it sometimes seems as though an important reason they have students is to feed their egos and reinforce to themselves that they are smarter than everyone else.
I have a four year degree, don’t use it and make at least 50% more than any of my other classmates in a job that doesn’t even require a college degree.
I also have four year degree, computer science & Business Admin, both practical. After graduation, I found many job were paying $12-14/hr, totally unacceptable. There are thousands of jobs that pay that and more requiring no education.
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No education, but I’ll bet they require plenty of experience, e.g. welders, painters, electricians, etc. It’s not as if they have absolutely no training.
You forgot Construction Workers, Oil Drilling Tech, Auto Body Tech, Carpenters, Maintenance Tech, Floor Covering Installers, etc. I have friends who work in every one of these fields. No training or diploma is required to begin a career in anyone of these, just a good work ethic.
No training involved, perhaps, but you don’t start out at the top of the payscale either. The same goes for any job, regardless of education or training.
e.g. “Looking for someone with experienced carpentry skills. Must be able to do framing and quality trim work. This is a great opportunity with a growing company. Year-Round Work! Experience is a must as no training will be provided. Must have most of your own tools. Day hours with pay starting between $15-$19/hr.”
And compare to this entry level listing in Memphis, TN:
HIRING ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS
Now hiring for Entry Level Carpenters and laborers in the Memphis area.
At Tradesmen International, Inc. we offer;
* Competitive wages
* Steady work
* Medical and Dental Benefits
* Life Insurance
* Short Term Disability
* 401K Retirement Plan
* Safety Incentives
MUST HAVE 1 YEAR CONSTRUCTION OR CONSTRUCTION RELATED EXPERIENCE. Must have a “CAN DO” attitude. Willingness to work hard and learn quick. Must have a “SAFETY FIRST” attitude.
Base Pay: $8.00 – $12.00 /Hour
And compare to this search for Student (High School)(a person with hardly any experience at all) Carpenter jobs on Jobs.com:
70+ listings for carpentry and masonry specialists from one employer…
The Army National Guard.
It is not a good idea to go into unreasonable debt just to get a degree. Apart from paying taxes, students shouldn’t have to pay a dime for college. Most of the world does it this way and they have been successful. We should do the same. Now, will students have all the luxuries they have now? No, but they will receive an education that gives them the knowledge and basic skills to be productive citizens.
Starting in K-12, kids no longer have to take their own notes. The notes are now called “study guides” and are given to the students. I was shocked when I first discovered that this had happened in our public schools over the past ten years. No longer do our kids learn cursive to take those said notes. I recently learned this is now the case in college too. If you are note taking, you aren’t organizing your thoughts on the subject and adding your own thoughts on the sides of those notes. This is a great loss. It just goes to show you, you can’t leave education in the well intentioned road to hell government. Education should be privatized completely.
But the conditions for successful education can and should be set up by the people. The free use of the internet is a prime example of that. With the internet, school is essentially redundant, and terribly expensive.
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why would anyone need to learn cursive?
I agree that notetaking hasn’t been effectively taught or trained in decades, my notes in college were borderline useless.
“With the internet, school is essentially redundant” Lord help us…
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The internet is an amazing tool for information. Some better than others, but it is quite easy articles like this.
Journal of Economic Perspectivesâ€”Volume 19, Number 4â€”Fall 2005â€”Pages 207â€“224
Eugenics and Economics in the Progressive Era
I agree with Alice. Knowing how to find, process, and understand information is just as useful as having access to information.
And this is something you learn in college? I don’t think so!
“While the educational interests of the students might be served by exposing them to different views of ideological issues, professors are able to confine the ideological spectrum to those views consonant with their own, not only in selecting reading material for their own classes but still more so in deciding whom to hire as fellow faculty members, leading to situations in which it is not uncommon for the ratio of Democrats to Republicans to be dozens to one in some departments, even though supporters of the two parties are relatively evenly divided in the country at large… Students who go through college without ever having confronted a vision of the world very different from that of a narrow band of views among their professors have little opportunity to develop their own ability to analyze conflicting arguments— as they will have to do after leaving the cloistered world of the campus.” — Thomas Sowell
“He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that… Nor is it enough that he should hear the arguments of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. That is not the way to do justice to the arguments, or bring them into real contact with his own mind. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them; who defend them in earnest, and do their very utmost for them. He must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form…” — John Stuart Mill, ‘On Liberty’
Amen to that!
Homeschooling is growing by 7% every year in this country. Most of the homeschooler parents I know are well educated, lots of them teachers, and its not because they are well educated that they should be allowed to homeschool. These “well educated” parents have the confidence to homeschool, because they know what bunk a so called formal education is all about. People who aren’t very formally educated have a sense of awe about educators and the educated, just like people do with the clergy, but both are bull, and it takes becoming one to really know that. You can homeschool your children just as well, better even because it doesn’t hinder you, without any formal corporate college education.
Amen to that.
Peace to everyone!!!!!!!!!!
Why go deep into debt so you cannot find a job after you get out? Besides, college doesn’t teach any useful skills. The skills that will be needed in the near future are being taught by the military. I would suggest the kids go into the military to learn how to handle weapons and kill people. AND the military will guarantee them a job where the colleges won’t.
“My son in the marines will KILL your honor roll student.”
You should see a psychiatrist…
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College trains students to go to work for mega-corporations and Marines are trained to protect profits of the same.
Higher education as currently expressed in our country is nothing more than a license to apply for better jobs. What a waste 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars.
Kids, if you’re gonna go to school, pick a non-research school, where the teachers have to teach well to keep their jobs.
A formal education in America amounts to a brain-washing. What comes out are intellectual and philisophical zombies that believe in and will stand up for nothing of any substance.
My education was nothing of the sort. I needed to attend college for my profession.
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