by INFORUM
Tea party pushes for change
October 16, 2010 at 7:00 pm in INFORUM
Supporters want to ‘vote the bums out’
BISMARCK With just weeks to go until Election Day, North Dakota tea party supporters rallied Saturday at the state Capitol to encourage residents to take back the country and “vote the bums out.” Continue Reading
the tea party is completely incoherent from a policy standpoint.
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t’s tm th tbggrs pt thr mny whr thr mth s. Lt’s strt wth thr kds: t’s tm thy pll thr kds t f pblc schl nd nrll thm n prvt Chrstn schl. nd py fll ttn, f crs. Thn, n stt cllg fr ths kds, nly prvt cllg, gn wth n schlrshps r fnncl d. ’ll b th frst n t kp th tx mny spnd spprtng ths whnrs.
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Another one of the canned, lame, arguments – ‘If these things are so bad (public education, social security, etc.) why don’t you just not use them.’ Nobody ever gives the option of not being forced to pay for these things through taxation. How about this for an argumant Mac – ‘If public education is so great, why don’t we make paying for it an option. Why aren’t all parents given vouchers to use at private schools. Then we would see how great public education is.’ Why would someone be taxed (ie. forced to pay for it) then, if they don’t have the money to pay for someone elses education and additionally, their own childrens education, they are some sort of hypocryte. How about making all of these ‘wonderful’ public programs voluntary (funding as well as participation) and see how many people choose them over other options?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Tommy, I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re saying, but I stand by my ‘put your money where your mouth is’ statement. If enough tea baggers stop using public resources, taxes would naturally go down (or at least the zillion dollar deficit might)
Regarding vouchers to attend private schools–love it. Who’s paying for it?
This all reminds me of the 80 year old guy screaming ‘keep the government OUT of my healthcare!” while he fills out his medicare paperwork.
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And perhaps they should keep the tax money they spend on your kids as well.
By the way Mac, way to elevate the debate with that lowbrow disgusting pejorative you use at the outset of your ridiculous comment.
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Correct and I hope they decline Social Security and Medicare. Oh and by the way, if you live in Grand Forks as Terry Bjerke does, we should calculate the federal cost for our dike and then I’m sure the GF tea baggers will want to pay for their portion. Everybody thinks federal spending that goes for “others” is a waste but when it is spending that helps them it is richly deserved.
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I’d opt out of SS. I’d love to, Sandy, but when it is brought up it is always shot down by Democrats. Perhaps, when I am of age, I’ll accept the money that I have put into it, with interest, and then I will cease accepting payments from SS.
I’d say I’ll be lucky if I can get even that.
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THE TEA PARTY’S AFFECT ON ME: i’ve voted republican sence reagan. i voted for mccain. because of the tea party, i’ll be voting for pomeroy. they are extreme nut cases and i want no part of them. well, you might say, the dems in congress today are nut cases too. someone told me years ago, i vote for the lesser of two evils. back thirty years ago , i didn’t understand what he meant but i’m understanding today. it’s sad it’s that way but it’s reality.
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Simple.. Scott Hennen
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Does being a “true Republican” mean that you vote Republican, even when you don’t have the same views as the Republican-endorsed candidate?
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The big question for the tea party is exactly HOW do you plan to carry out your generalities? Unless and until you give me specifics, you won’t get my vote. All I hear now is vague promises of glittering generalities.
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Good talking points fisherperson, there are many serious alternatives being proposed to the Obama agenda, and they never see the light of day because Nancy Pelosi smacks them with her gavel. Not only that, but most republicans are too spineless to stand for anything.
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Can I assume that no Tea Party supporter will accept any government money? No ag payment, no medicare because we don’t want government health care, and lets stop plowing snow off the highways in the winter because we want smaller government.
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Again, with the whole lame ‘don’t accept anything from the government then.’ Please give people the option of opting out of these programs (ie. not being taxed to fund them) and then see who wants to participate in them. At that point, the only people who would want to participate are those who pay nothing into the system. Not really sure where there has been a tea party rally that said anything about not funding higways and highway maintenance. Must have been at that racist tea party rally that apparently nobody has any footage of. What a shame, would make great video fodder for Fast Eddie Schultz….
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The gov’t doesnt so those things efficiently anyways Mr. Harper!
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Even a blind man can see what we have in Congress now is NOT working. We MUST try someone new. If they don’t work we replace them also. We just can’t vote the lesser of two evils as this has never worked. Doesn’t matter if they don’t have an answer right now on how to fix things as long as they have enough sense to know to cut the stupid spending and to spend only for things that NEED financing. Be able to vote NO and to stand up to these idiots on all of the earmarks that are put into the bills. Also only get raises when voted on by the People.
We need drastic changes NOW!
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BBJack, what’s interesting is your statement sounds exactly like what was said about healthcare a couple years ago. “This may not be perfect, but it’s better than what we have now. ” How ironic that turns out to be exactly what the tea party espouses: we don’t really know the answer, but let’s just throw everything out the window and figure it out as we go. Yeah, I want these nut-cases running our country.
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t sms fttng tht Rck Brg ws t th tbggr rlly. H sms qlly t f tch wth FCTS. H md sttmnts tht shw hs cmpgn s nt p t spd n th sss–Knd f lk grp prtstng hgh txs whn txs r th lwst thy hv bn n 50 yrs. m srprsd th Rpblcn prty ws s hrd p fr cnddt tht thy hd t rn n tht ds nt vn ndrstnd smpl sss. t s ls clr tht Brg s qt wll t d, bng th slmlrd f Gldmrk, nd tht th thr hd f th tbggrs s Stv Schl wnr f Schls Sprtng Gds wh s wlthy nd ppss hvng t gv hs wrkrs dcnt bnfts nd py. Srprs, srprs.
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tbggr rlly…ncly sttd cl!
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Ya, really funny. You must be riot at the middle school lunch table. What next, fart jokes you hillarious comedian!
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http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/210904?RS_show_page=0
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From looking at the misspelled sign, I now know it was an official Tea Party Rally.
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My fvrt ll tm tbggr sgn “N pbc ptn.”
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What I see here is a bunch of people who are happy with the status quo. Career politicians getting rich while the country gets downgraded with every passing year. Congress was never meant to be a lifelong job because if it is you get what we have now. You could find 535 better people on the street than what is running the country. Oh and nice slur mac, really highlights your intelligence.
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I could have sworn the TP began quite some time before Obama was elected.
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Bringing back the dysfunction that existed with the Bush administration is NOT the answer folks. We need to get off the treadmill, where we elect one party and then we vote them out and vote in the other party and the cycle repeats itself. God help you if you think that either “Democrats” or “Republicans” are the answer. Folks, there is no clean end of the turd.
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“What do we want? We aren’t really sure..When do we want it? NOW!!!” could be their slogan.
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What programs do you see as useless?
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Department of Education, Department of Energy, subsidising of businesses, public funded studies of the mating habits of honey bees, the correct amount of sleep people between the age of 25-35 need, etc. (I know the last two are just made up things, what I mean to indicate is the government spends millions upon millions of dollars for ‘studies’ that people either already know through common sense or just don’t care about, so do not Google them and give me some sort of ‘gotcha’ that they do not exist. However, if you do find they are actual studies, that would be pretty funny….)
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Okay, Dept of Education and Energy, National Science foundation and all basic research by federal government is abolished. You now have reduced the federal budget by 3.6% and the debt by o.6%. Your federal income tax just dropped by less than 1%. Now, what are you going to do about the other 96.4% of the federal budget and the other 99.4% of the federal debt?
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One thing I would like to see is our Military out of some of these countries we’re in. It’s like throwing pearls to swine. Also, I think we should limit welfare. Of course we need to have a safety net for people that fall on hard times and a permanent one for the disabled (and I mean LEGITIMATELY disabled) but stealing from the working class to give to the lazy is just wrong. I think the bailouts and TARP were huge mistakes. ESL programs should be stopped. My family immigrated here and had to learn the language, first. Why should we spend our money to do this? Stop illegal immigration and deport all illegals. Charge the Mexican government for every single criminal inmate, here illegally, in our country’s jails. Gee, strangely enough, California’s insanely high deficit is exactly equal to the money they pump in to illegal immigrants. Stop all programs like LSS and make a rule that if you come here from another country and commit even one crime – you’re out. Are you bored yet? I am. Any more questions…I’ll be around later.
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So what you’re saying in the first part is you aren’t really for throwing out the programs entirely, but rather cracking down on waste and fraud so they run as they were designed?
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Barb, EXACTLY. I would have to do some research because I have a feeling there are some that should be cut out entirely but for the most part, yes, you are right on.
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Good point Fisherman, but you forgot when calculating the numbers to take into account the loss in growth this country would experience if we quit doing research. All the numbers get worse then.
When republicans want to say that government spending has gotten so high under Obama they have to divide it by GDP. The spending isn’t really going up, the GDP is going down. So lets cut the spending to assist the GDP and see the numbers get worse and worse. Soon we won’t be whining about just the manufacturing jobs going over seas, soon whole companies will go. And we can finally become the third world country they apparently want us to be.
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Seriously? Your relatives had to learn English first? I highly doubt it. Why is it then that so many of the older generations (my great grandparents) still speak their native languages? It’s rare for first generation immigrants to fully assimilate in their lifetime but their offspring will. This has been shown time and time again. For someone complaining about cutting spending you sure are willing to spend A LOT of taxpayer money to deport 12-15 million illegal aliens, almost all of which are here simply to work.
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Ah, yes Christy, what a great loss to this nation it would be if we didn’t study all of the inane things that government studies.
Perhaps it could actually restore science to its rightful place and scour the money grubbing scientists that invent problems that the government are most likely to fund.
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John, yes. Back then they had very sensible and sustainable immigration policies. You had to be able to speak English, you had to have a sponsor (someone that would vouch for you and be responsible if you broke the law.) You had to have a health certificate. You had to have a certain amount of money in the bank to show that you could support yourself in an emergency. You had to have a job secured. You had to sign a document that acknowledged that you would NEVER EVER try to get United States “welfare” because you would NOT be given it. If you were convicted of any crime (I’m not talking about a speeding ticket) you would be immediately deported and billed for the costs. All common sense and all should be back into law immediately. My family thrived because they valued the privilege of becoming Americans. They adopted the wonderful culture and traditions of America. Oh, and they had to WAIT THEIR TURN.
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Your “you had to speak English to immigrate” is complete B.S. I’d like to see a source for the rest of your false information because it isn’t true. You are trying to tell me the Irish immigrants had money in the bank AND spoke English? LOL. Do you realize the average education/poverty level of most of the immigrants that entered during the first half of last century? You must be reading right off a T.P. website or something because your statements are delusional.
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Mammabear3 said:
“My family thrived because they valued the privilege of becoming Americans. They adopted the wonderful culture and traditions of America. ”
I just had to point out this because it is a prime example of what is going on in the country right now and directly relates to Beck’s “Take our Country Back” and “Restore the Honor” dribble which everyone doesn’t want to talk about when I ask. You really think Mexican’s don’t value our country and wouldn’t jump at a chance for citizenship? Wow. Your ancestors didn’t adopt America’s culture, they brought their culture here and helped to create the culture we have today just as the influx of Mexicans are now effecting our current cultures. I know you are angry because it isn’t all European white Christian holidays and stuff but this is America after all.
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Jamie, that is garbage, if they were serious about citizenship, and they really wanted to become Americans, they would learn the language that is spoken here. Some do, and I tip my cap to them. The ones who come here because they admire and respect what we have done here I welcome with outstretched arms.
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But Mamabear, many people I know who identify as Tea Party members are trying to say they want programs like welfare and Social Security scrapped. FIXED, I can get on board with, but they made it clear they want hands OFF. I’m what many would call a bleeding heart liberal, but even I want our programs fixed so they work because I feel there is too much waste and fraud going on.
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Britain made cuts of 20% to 40% across the board. This week they announced they will be eliminating 200 government agencies. Their NHS is in shambles yet they pay 67% in taxes. We need to do much of the same here. Stop out of control spending and start making the cuts in government waste.
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Absolutely Barb. I can accept SS and Medicare if it were run with any amount of competence, and also if it were not designed to be the only solution for so many people. Of course, the second part is really not the governments fault, it is our own.
P.S. Here is a great example of government waste that has everyone so upset.
“72,000 stimulus payments went to dead people ”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39566021/ns/business-economy_at_a_crossroads/
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Mammabear3. Thank you for saying that. I couldn’t agree more (especially the part about laws being applied equally to all, not just white straight folks). IMO, if any party could clearly articulate a viable plan for making any one of those things happen, they’d sweep the elections.
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OK, to be clear I agree with the comment MB3 made at 11:04 a.m.
Referring to any human being as ‘the world’s garbage’ is hate speech. Your opinion is no longer worth the time spent reading it. People like you are what is truly wrong with America. Be thankful we cannot vote YOU out.
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“Laws to be applied equally to all.”
Does that mean you are in favor of gay marriage and against racial profiling, or should the laws only be applied “equally” to members of groups you agree with?
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Good comment Steve B. On the other side of the world people are tried in court for some of the things I have seen posted here. Hate speech is a farce.
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And the issue there is no feasible way for a blue collar worker to get in to the country atm. It’s truly a sign of the double speak going on in the Tea Party and their true motives. Deporting 12-15 million illegals would 1. kill our farming economy and 2. cost billions. If the Tea Party (who is “fiscally conservative”) really were trying to keep our economy going and take care of things in a financially responsible way to keep $$ in America’s pocket they would be advocating immigration reform with amnesty towards all illegal immigrants in the country withoug any criminal history.
Oh btw, it’s already happening:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/27/new-immigration-policy-halt-illegal-immigrant-deportations/
AAAAAMMMMMNEEEESSSSTY
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How about simply deporting the troublemakers Jamie? That would be enough for me for starters. Of course it isn’t feasible to round up every one of them and deport them. That is obvious.
The farm economy is a sham anyways. Enough with the cheap food policy and pay people what they ought to be paid.
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I love the Russia sign in the picture. The Russian economy has been capitalist based since the revolution of 1991. Sure, maybe some of them what their socialism back but the person who made the sign is showing his lack of world understanding.
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Bsh dmn crtd 1/23rd f th jbs tht Clntn dmn dd- ftr pssng thr mssv, nfndd tx cts. Cts t th wlthy ddn’t crt jbs thn nd thy wn’t nw. thnk th tbggrs, ncldng Brg, shld mbrc th Dpt f dctn–t s nvr t lt fr thm t ctch p wth th rst f s n bk lrnn’!
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Phrases like, “sticking to the wording of the Constitution” make me laugh so hard. Their biggest complaints are all with things that are unquestionably constitutional, and to find them not to be requires you to disregard the actual words of the constitution in favor of your own interpretations of them.
Not to mention that if, in their wildest dreams, they succeeded and entirely took over both houses of congress and got the federal government out of all the areas of regulation and taxation that they think it shouldn’t be in what do they think will happen? The states would step up and implement their own regulations in the areas the feds had vacated and would pick up the revenue streams so recently vacated by the federal tax codes.
Nothing material would change, but rather than one national policy you’d have 50 state-specific policies and interstate commerce would suddenly become complicated rather than the simplest thing imaginable. You’d end up with a country that looks remarkably like the US did under the articles of confederation, and if you know anything at all about history you know that particular mistake lasted for less than a decade and nearly destroyed the country before it even got going.
So yes, all you tea party “patriots”, let’s keep calling for a return to a system that nearly destroyed the country once. Good plan.
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I think that would be a very desirable situation. The residents/voters have much greater control over their local and state political situation than they do over the national situation. They can create the kind of state political/taxation/spending environment they desire. If someone feels uncomfortable in that environment (too conservative, too liberal, taxes too high, government programs too minimal, etc) they can try and find a state that fits their tastes and not have to vacate the greatest country in the world. I know it might be kind of old fashioned, but this is just the type of setup the original framers envisioned when they created the country. Very limited federal government/control, much stronger state governments.
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“I know it might be kind of old fashioned, but this is just the type of setup the original framers envisioned when they created the country.”
Yes, it was, when they created the articles of confederation. Which failed to create a viable country and were discarded less than a decade after they were written in favor of our modern constitution.
I don’t think you understand what you’re proposing. It would create a “country” that is far more like the European union than what anyone would recognize as the United States. It would be fifty essentially sovereign nations bound together by a thin layer of overarching, but powerless, agreement that only works as long as every single state agrees that it does.
If you want a confederation of states like that you do not want the United States. If you want the US you want a federalist system, which is exactly what exists now.
Take a history course, take an intro to constitutional law course, THEN start making claims that a confederation is the way to go and maybe you’ll be able to back that up with cogent points. As it stands you’re trying to claim that a terrible idea is a good choice because you don’t like the way things work at the moment.
Come on. Just… come on. Educate yourself first, then we’ll talk.
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Your smug, condescending attitude and continual reference to the Articles of Confederation may impress you and your fellow nerds in your ‘Book of the Month’ club or may make you think it impresses the ladies on the on-line dating web sites you frequent, but they don’t really do much for me. I know your liberal arts degree might look kind of impressive framed on your wall, but if you would take a look at the Constitution, it DOES LIMIT FEDERAL POWER and leave most of the power to the states. The Tenth Amendment states ‘The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.’ You can go off on your constant need to put that liberal arts degree to use by constant references to the Articles of Confederation, but, again, keep it to your inner circle that is actually impressed with this blather.
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I’ll be a big enough person to ignore the fact that you’re assuming whole handfuls of incorrect things about me and trying to use them to insult me, but I won’t be big enough to let you sit back and laugh to yourself about how you scored a real telling blow against that big bad guy advocating *GASP* education.
As even a first year law student will tell you (and you should trust me on that, I’ve been one) the tenth amendment is all but meaningless. Essentially it means whatever the federal government says it means. It places no limits on federal power, it reserves no specific rights to the states, and every attempt (in court) to claim that it does have lost. Badly. All it means is that if the federal government doesn’t have the power to do it the states can, and if the federal government does have the power to do it the states can do it only so long as the federal government lets them.
The ONLY things delegated explicitly to the states are their specific police power, the ability to regulate for the general good of their people, and the ability to structure themselves.
But no, go ahead and disregard everything I say because it’s obvious that my Physics degree makes me feel the need to show off how liberal artsy I am (?) and my ongoing legal studies don’t give me ANY sort of additional insight into the constitution.
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Steve B. as much as I liked one of your previous comments it is so unfortunate to see you miss the mark so wildly here. While interstate commerce is certainly a valid reason for some federal intervention, it is grossly over-applied today. If the health care bill hadn’t mandated the purchase of products from the marketplace, I highly doubt that these 10th amendment issues would not have come up. However, it did, and now you sit here and talk about the constitution, without any regard for the 10th amendment.
At what point does interstate commerce cease to intrude into the minutia of our personal lives?
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Steve B said: On October 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM
“So yes, all you tea party “patriotsâ€, let’s keep calling for a return to a system that nearly destroyed the country once. Good plan.”
Nice straw-man… tis the season.
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And there’s no one to blame for the introduction of it into the political discourse but the members of the tea party themselves. I’m not saying someone wouldn’t have decided to apply it to them on their own, but they cut that hypothetical person off at the pass by having a “teabag the president” day where members were encouraged to send teabags to the president as a form of protest.
I doubt they got the double entendre involved, but that’s really too bad, because everyone else did. So you can’t really blame anyone but the movement itself for that unpleasant eponym.
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Sndwn, hw s “tbggr” hrld nslt? Th T Bggrs slf-dntfd thmslvs s “T Bggrs.” Jst bcs th rdclsnss f yr wn dntty ws rvld ds nt gv y th frdm frm th cnsqncs f dntfyng yrslvs wth slng trm fr tstcl lckng.
[Where are the vowels?]Hot debate. What do you think?
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Whn y pply stpd lbl t yrslf thr’s n n t blm bt yrslf whn thr ppl ltch nt tht s wy t mk fn f y. Y dd t t yrslf.
’m nt syng nythng bt nythng thr thn “tbggr”. trm cnd, s pplcbl t mmbrs f th t prty, by th t prty tslf. Pck stpd nm fr yrslf nd gt nsltd, vn kndrgrtnr ndrstnds tht.
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Who coined the term as applicable to the tea party movement? No tea party member self identifies as a teabagger. The teabagger term actually comes from (surprise surprise) John Stewart.
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Wrong. The Tea Party coined their own term. They weren’t smart enough to realize it had a double meaning. There are pics of Tea Party rallies calling themselves Tea Baggers btw. Same thing happened when an Oregon or Washington Tea Party coined a 4chan term that was a complete joke.
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Find me a link for a sign that a tea party member has identified him/herself as a teabagger. I could not find one.
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Additionally, if some less intellectual member of the tea party movement did identify themselves that way, it would not represent the whole of the movement. Perhaps the those who disagree with you should start by calling you a libtard or a Cleveland Steamer. That would lead to some fruitful debate. The disrespect engendered in the term is clear.
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Here’s their oopsie 4chan slogan theft which got pulled once someone with a brain realized what was going on.
http://thenextweb.com/us/2010/07/26/oregon-political-movement-adopts-a-4chan-slogan/
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rofl. Maybe they shouldn’t use terms they find offensive.
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1983/33820503.png
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Name me a noun or noun phrase that doesn’t elicit snickers from the likes of Bevis Cooper.
One of the things tea partiers are sick of is the elite media turning the English language into one big sex joke.
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But now with the rational explanations out of the way: Of course you can blame them! Who said you have to be rational or logical or intelligent in your invective and spreading of blame in all directions but toward yourselves? The tea party crowd hasn’t made any attempts to remain within the bounds of sanity thus far, so why should any of us expect them to start now?
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“I’m not a witch. I’m you.”
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Having a “teabag the president” day would not be the same thing as self identifying as “teabaggers” Steve B. More liberal smoke and mirrors. Keep trying to deflect attention from the progressive’s failures.
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When did I identify myself as a liberal or try to deflect attention from any failures? I’m pointing out that objecting to the use of a name to label the people who created it is a stupid complaint and succeeds in nothing but making you look bad.
Look, I have (on this page even) engaged in plenty of substantive discussion about the tea party crowd and their stances, but trying to imply that that’s what this is is just… silly. I was pointing out that complaining about the use of a name you create for yourself is dumb. End of story.
And it IS. YOU’RE the one who is trying to deflect from that and drag it back to things that we aren’t even talking about in this particular thread.
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Stevie, seriously, you know it is wrong to call someone a pejorative, and that is what it is. If you are defending it, it only shows your lack of character.
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Ths s th bst. T Prtrs’ md t th slgn thy md p. Yr wn ppl cnd th trm T Bggrs!!
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Hs N N rlzd th glrng msspllng n th Rss sgn? Lv t t th mrn T Bggrs t msspll “thr [sc].”
(nd ys, ’m sr thr r mny Rssns wh wnt sclsm… Bt thy dn’t crrntly hv t).
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On the point of the signs: The second guy with one in the photo is making an interesting point… It’s our DUTY to resist the enforcement of the Arizona immigration law, the Defense of Marriage Act, and the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell policy.
Somehow I doubt he’d agree with a single thing I just said, though. I bet he’d even use the phrase “activist judges” in trying to explain the things he thinks it’s our “duty” to resist.
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I find hilarious that all these “small government” tea partiers are the same folk who would choose to use the government to deny gays the right to marry or deny individuals their right to choose whether or not to carry a fetus to term. There once was a time when even Jerry Falwell thought it best to keep religious beliefs out of government… It’s a shame he and those like him did not hold fast to those beliefs…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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It’s also hilarious when self-identified tea party members say outrageous things about “the ground zero mosque” and how we shouldn’t let it be built.
Talk about the law applying (and rights existing) only when you want them to…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Tommy, are you kidding me? Saying “In my opinion, I think guys named Tommy should not be allowed to vote” is exactly the same thing as saying “I think your right to vote should be taken away.” HOW are these two statements different?
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Your point here missed me! Not sure what your point is…. In either case, you are allowed to say either of the two statements, and you have not once violated my rights in any manner. Once we are not allowed to disagree publicly, we have taken a huge step backwards. Just by saying I shouldn’t be allowed to vote is no big deal. Standing in front of a polling place with a baton in your hand, making threatening remarks should be a violation of a persons rights, but, I guess even that goes nowadays, so how can simply saying I shouldn’t have the right to vote any big deal?
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I get it. As long as I don’t actually TAKE that right away from you, I can build a political platform around SAYING you should not have that right. Okay. Thanks for clarifying.
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Exactly! Allowing political discourse is one of the foundations of the country. If someone wants to say that women should not have the right to vote, they can say that without having actually denied women of anything. If they do something to actually prevent them from voting, then there is a problem. Following me here?
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I hate to admit it, but yes. Are you happy now?
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I think I just made a friend!
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Despite the huge infusion of federal cash and the near tripling of overall per pupil funding since 1965, national academic performance has not improved. Math and reading scores have stagnated, graduation rates have flatlined, and researchers have shown numerous billion-dollar federal programs to be failures.
Keep throwing money away or improve the system?
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The tea party “plan” amounts to cutting off one’s leg to show a sore toe that it won’t be tolerated.
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Wow, nice to see you got to recycle that little ditty justasec.
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It’s always worth recycling a good metaphor! Thanks for noticing!
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Darn, I was busy working my way thru college and missed Woodstock, now I have been busy working to make ends meet and I missed the tea party movement. The last time I voted democrat was for Walter Mondale and and if I remember right I was the only person in the USA who voted for him,,,,,,,
I like the opinions of those who argue to reduce the size of government, if I were King, I would eliminate the US Department of Education, I would leave it to the states to decide what they wanted to spend on education.
I would eliminate the US Department of Agriculture,I hear that they cant even tell you how many people they employ. Could that be true?
Not all government entities should be eliminated, few should argue tho, we could use a bit of improvement how these programs are managed.
I would cut all Federal pay by 50%, that happened across this country in nearly all major private work forces. Why should Federal and State employees receive more than 3 times the pay and benefits as their private sector employees?
I cant comment on gays and lesians and marriage, my marriage failed after 30 years so I question why shouldnt gays and lesbians be forced to go thru that experience? Let them get married…… blah blah blah
The blame game of posts above are the most entertaining to read. I do side with the arguments of the tea partyers that it is time to fix this mess in the management of the our government.
GO SIOUX
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Hmmm the private sector pay must suck or I missed out on one heck of a pay raise when I was in the Army after 5 years of service I was barley making over $20K a year, because if they get paid 3x more I probably should have stayed. On the other hand congress could use a pay cut when they wont raise minimum wage but will approve themselves a pay raise in the same session its disheartening
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I was reading through the comments to this article, and trying to figure out what the difference is between the two sides in this argument. It seems to me that there are two broad opposing viewpoints. One group of people does not trust the government, and the other does not trust the common man.
Those who do not trust the common man, believe that they and the government know what is best and that the common man cannot be trusted to run their own affairs. They cannot feed themselves, run a company, hire and fire people, educate people and so on. The government must regulate the lives of the people, and rightfully owns the property of all the citizens to use and distribute as they see fit.
Those who do not trust the government believe that they and their fellow man does not need the government to micromanage their lives. They can feed themselves, run a business, educate people and so on. They expect that the government will take the bare minimum of their belongings to run the government and use for “the common good”. They see government action as an intrusion into their lives.
It is more than a difference in opinion. It is a dogmatism that comes from a fundamental difference in ideals. It is understandable that those who do not trust the common man would belittle and besmirch the tea party movement because the tea part movement represents those who do not trust the government. Additionally, it is a powerful movement and cognitive dissonance theory suggests that it would be uncomfortable for those who disagree with the movement to accept that it is powerful, mainstream and legitimate. Hence the irrational hatred, name calling and mocking of those in the movement.
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Perfect analysis Justin.
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You guys keep saying this but the facts show otherwise. You see the gov’t as an intrusion only when it effects your $$. Otherwise you are clamoring for gov’t changes to “restore the honor”. What exactly does “restore the honor” mean? It means we shouldn’t afford Muslims the right to build a mosque, we should spend all this money you want to “save” by cutting taxes on deporting 12-15 million illegal immigrants here to work. It means making sure the gov’t makes it illegal for gays to have marriage rights. etc. etc. You are joking noone here. Well the tea baggers are eating it up I guess.
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The Tea Party Constitution
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1893/theteapartiesconstituti.jpg
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Wrong. The tea party coined themselves “Tea Baggers”. Once again get your facts straight and quit crying because your party isn’t smart enough to figure out slang before they try and use it as their campaign slogan.
http://theweek.com/article/index/202620/the-evolution-of-the-word-tea-bagger
Who doesn’t trust the common man btw? Is the common man the +250k earner crying because he’s in the top 5th percantile of the salary of the country? I doubt it. You try to make these points about anti government and how we want all these gov’t intrusions to tell us how to act yet you can’t even practice tolerance and support (mostly unconstitutional) measures favoring anti-mosque building, anti-immigration, anti-gay marriage etc. You’d be more factually correct if you just admit this and state that you are against gov’t…..that takes money out of your pocked for the common man struggling to make ends meet.
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Yes John, the man who makes $250K is the common man. All of us who are not in the ruling class are the common man. As I stated before, this is dogmatic and is based on fundamental ideals. At the core , what some oppose is less government intrusion into everyday life. Some people want the government to hold our hands and make sure we make good decisions and “level the playing field” by tilting it the way they want it, while others just want to live their lives and keep the fruits of their labor to do with as they see fit. Do I really own that land, or will it be seized when I fail to pay the taxes (rent)? Ownership of property is an illusion today, and many people are tired of it. We do not belong to the government, and so neither does our time. Free men have the right to keep what they produce. Slaves do not.
Additionally, you have a very hard time stomaching that the tea party is made up of common men fighting for the common man. Just as I stated in the original post. Too bad for you, it is true.
You may notice that I did not address any of the straw man arguments you threw into the post. That is not what the tea party is about. The opposition does not get to define the movement.
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Yet you’ve defined your movement with the anti-immigration proposals, anti-mosque marches, etc. You can’t ignore these things and say they don’t exist when they are the forefront of most Tea Party rallies, signs, etc. To say otherwise is blatantly ignorant. To say you want small gov’t when you support the gov’t's intervention on these issues, support continued defense spending, etc. is hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. What measures am I missing here that are such a huge Tea Party issue? What point in history are we “Restoring the Honor” back to? Who are we “taking our country” back from?
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This is not my movement and what some people find important others may not be as attached to. I do not know what those slogans are supposed to mean. You really want to focus on fringe issues. The core of the issue is smaller government and less government intrusion. Arguing for less government while still supporting defense spending is not hypocritical. It is pretty easy to figure out that the national defense is required by the constitution, and it really does not intrude into the lives of the common man all that much. I have never seen tanks rolling through my town, but I do have regulation after regulation and form after form and a ridiculously complicated tax code to wade through.
The issues that pro big-government people keep spouting are that tea party supporters oppose gay marriage, oppose illegal immigration (except you spin it to make it seem as though tea party supporters are xenophobic), and that they want lower taxes. So what? I would argue that the government has no place in marriage what-so-ever. That includes man and wife. Taxes are for one purpose only, and that is to raise revenue. The government has no business trying to control our behavior through the tax code, whether it is encouraging marriage, or penalizing smoking. The current tax structure gives the government far too much power. People who are here illegally should not be. We do not have to deport them. They will self deport once we start enforcing the law. Arizona has proven that. Lower taxes… Well we are not slaves, and should not have to give our lives to service the desires of other people. People really can take care of themselves. Personal responsibility. Embrace it.
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2 words put a huge kink in your first paragraph’s argument – Patriot Act
As per your 2nd, AZ’s illegal immigration was dropping well before the AZ bill was proposed. Way to try and pat your own back though.
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I am bush now? Good God. I am not in charge of anything here. I did not approve of the patriot act. Like I said before you assume too much.
I am correct about AZ. No need to even belabor the point.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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Have you ever BEEN to Arizona? Trust me, there are as many illegals felon Mexicans there as there are “regular folks.”
It’s not illegal immigration anymore at this point. It’s felons committing acts of terrorism against our nation.
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Swing…….and a miss.
LOL. I feel guilty because I kind of baited you by not bringing up crime stats previously waiting for a response like “OMG the Mexicans are coming here to kill us all!” I must say it didn’t take very long either.
Your point might make sense if crime rates weren’t going down:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/29/arizona.immigration.crime/index.html
“According to FBI statistics, violent crimes reported in Arizona dropped by nearly 1,500 reported incidents between 2005 and 2008. Reported property crimes also fell, from about 287,000 reported incidents to 279,000 in the same period. These decreases are accentuated by the fact that Arizona’s population grew by 600,000 between 2005 and 2008.”
“According to the nonpartisan Immigration Policy Institute, proponents of the bill “overlook two salient points: Crime rates have already been falling in Arizona for years despite the presence of unauthorized immigrants, and a century’s worth of research has demonstrated that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born.”
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250k is top 5% of earners in the country. lol @ them being a common person.
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They are subject to the same government regulations you are and more.
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oops entered reply wrong.
So they are subject to more regulations eh? Following that logic they in fact aren’t the common folk then if they are subject to MORE regulation amirite? Nice try. How about answering the questions of substance I asked?
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I disagree with the premise on which you are asking your questions. They assume too much.
The fact that they are subject to more regulation simply highlights that they are doing more. the more you do, the more the government intrudes.
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They assume too much? Rofl. I mean really, it shouldn’t be that difficult. If I can’t ask in a Tea Party thread what The Tea Party’s most prominent slogans mean without getting the sidestep then who should I ask?
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Yes Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are the common man because they arent in power.
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No, it is not. It is common sense. We all have the same needs. Freedom from oppression is one of those needs. We can all succeed. Some people would rather throw stones at the successful than actually get out there and make it for themselves. Why would anyone have to pay a higher tax rate than anyone else? It is not about equality, that is for certain.
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Oh I see. You are either incredibly stupid or a troll. I am done with you.
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Where does all this ‘tea party against the mosque’ business come from? First of all, the tea party is a loose collection of individuals mainly concerned with government spending and intervention into people’s lives. Even if you can sight me a few instances of people within the movement who are anti-ground zero mosque, it is far from a major element of the movement anymore than the fact a few Democrats have come out against the mosque an indication the ALL DEMOCRATS are against the mosque. With any large group, you are going to find varying opinions, I don’t see where anti-mosque has really been something to draw people to the tea party movement. It just isn’t there.
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Like I said – loose collection of individuals that have elements that are anti-mosque. I can give you links to where union memebers picketed bank executives homes but I don’t think I can say that Democrats or unions want all banks shut down. I can pull down a couple of Youtube videos that show certain Democrat congresspeople basically saying the Constitution doesn’t matter. However, I don’t think I can generalize that Democrats are anti-Constitution. The genesis of the movement was lower tax, less government involvement in business and individuals lives. Your two links basically show, the exception proves the rule, as there are no links showing that a central rallying point of the tea parties is an anti-mosque movement.
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For the Nth time, there is not ‘THE leader of the Tea Party movement’. This guy is just a person who (may have) organized or attended a rally. Anti-mosque does not really get people too fired up. If you want to play the link gotcha game, here goes:
Democratic Congressman ‘I don’t care about the constitution.’ DEMOCRATES HATE THE CONSTITUTION!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgh-q4t0kzM
Democratic Contressman ‘The Federal Government can do most anything in this country’ DEMOCRATS WANT TO ENSLAVE ALL OF US!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQeglQ26nw0&feature=related
And another one – UNIONS HATE BOY SCOUTS!
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2009/11/18/pennsylvania-union-leader-criticized-threatening-legal-action-boy-scouts/
The difference between your and my links – all of my links are of ELECTED LEADERS who, by their election, have had their beliefs endorsed by their backers. The link you have is to a self proclaimed leader who was never elected to anything. My point is this – you can find quotes and ‘beliefs’ everywhere on the internet that paint a certain group the way you want them painted. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE TEA PARTY’S RALLYING POINT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO. PLEASE NO MORE LINKS. TELL ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT IS A FOUNDING POINT OF THE MOVEMENT. (Hint: Gonna be hard to do, as ground zero mosque issue came long after creation of the Tea Party movement.)
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The leader of the Tea Party?
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If that is the leader of the tea party can we say that Louis Farrakhan is the leader of progressive thought?
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Red Herring. I don’t care what the democrats or others did. If you want to discuss those things perhaps get a thread started about them. You asked for sources of info about the TEA PARTY in a TEA PARTY THREAD and I linked two. I’m not going to list the other 400,000 hits on Google for you.
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Point is, if a group is large enough, you can find something on the internet that a member of the group has said or done that is not good/right. Tarring the whole group is just the thing that the left has been doing since the inception of the Tea Party movement. My point is SO WHAT – you found a controversial statement by someone associated with the Tea Party movement. My point is, the movement is centered around government spending and intrustion. I understand Google is a fun way to dig up dirt on those you oppose, but, if you’ve noticed, not a single person in this whole thread has gone against the core of the Tea Party. They pick at the fringe, trying to paint the core as the fringe. Been tried from inception, but, if you pay any attention to the political environment, only increased the Tea Parties reach.
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Again, to say that Tea Partiers aren’t concerned or voicing their opinions against these things is ignoring your own base. I brought up mosques in this thread but did I bring up gay marriage? Did I bring up immigration? Nope. Mamabear was educating us about the concerns of the Tea Party. I just responded. Maybe you and her need to iron out exactly what the Tea Party agenda is.
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Against government intrusion?
http://www.salon.com/news/tea_parties/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/10/19/miller
“One of the more disturbing election incidents took place in Alaska on Sunday night, when private “guards” working for GOP Senate nominee Joe Miller forcibly detained and handcuffed a journalist as he tried to ask the candidate questions which he did not want to answer. ”
It is against DOD Directive 1344.1 which states:
“Political Activities by Members of the Armed Forces on Active Duty” — provides: “A member on AD [active duty] shall not: . . .[p]articipate in partisan political management, campaigns, or conventions.”
but
“The legality is the least of the concerns here. That Directive exists because it’s dangerous and un-democratic to have active-duty soldiers taking an active role in partisan campaigns; having them handcuff journalists on behalf of candidates is so far over that line that it’s hard to believe it happened.
“The real issue, though, is Joe Miller: the fact that he did this and then emphatically defended it reveals the deep authoritarianism of many of these “small-government, pro-Constitution” right-wing candidates. Any American of minimal decency should be repelled by this incident.”
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I had the greatest idea! The “Apathetic Coffee Drinkers” movement! The ACD will hold regular meetings and political rallies in towns around the country and march on Washington. The meetings will be planned but only one or two people will show up. They will then lose their membership because they showed they care too much. Our motto will be, “No mountain too…I can’t remember the rest. Who cares.” We will only start voting when the rest of the US realizes “changing a country” isn’t a magical fix and takes time. Not 4 years. Not 8. Small steps lead to big changes eventually!
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Tea Party schmea party. O’Donnel, Bachman, Palin…such pretty girls.
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Do I detect a note of jealosy Alice?
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What is so wrong with the Tea Party Movement? What is wrong with fiscal responsibility, limited government, and common sense. To me the Tea Party is simple, they are fed up with Republicans and Democrats alike. It is the Republican party is trying to grab on to their coattails because of the popularity among a large number of Americans.
Secondly, what is wrong with profiling. I am a white American in my mid 30′s and if I was cruising through a largely populated African American community at 2:00 in the morning, I surely would be pulled over for questioning. No different than an African American cruising through a largely white community at 2:00 in the morning. Just trying to make a connection.
There is a lot of hate in these postings and there is no question that our country is divided. The current administration ran a campaign on bringing us together and on that note it has been a complete disaster. I am fearfull that the Country, our Economy, and our way of life is at stake. I’m not sure that there is anything left we can do to bring us back to prosperity.
Good Luck and God Speed.
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Well said Jeff. The Tea Party is that simple and it drive the people that hate it crazy. However, with big time change and fiscal disipline we will be back to prosperity.
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tea party is simply a bunch of haters and to me that’s not simple, it’s evil
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are you nuts there’s nothing wrong with racial profiling: i’m white and you better not racial profile me in a black community or any community in the UNITED STATES!!!! this is what i hate about the tea party: there’s so many haters in this group ( in other words, racists). i’ve voted republican sence reagan and for this very reason i’m voting for pomeroy. matter of fact, i wasn’t fired up to vote at all but because of my opposition to the tea party i am.
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FYI, I have never been to a tea party event nor have I ever said that I am in alignment with the Tea Party. Because of my comments I guess you have given me a profile. I suppose in your mind that is ok because we are both white. “Judge not, lest ye not be judged”.
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Are those serious profiling thoughts? Wow! And people wonder who these Tea Partiers with racist agendas are. Jeff would be pulling over random minorities if he was a cop because “they don’t belong there”.
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jamie, they are showing their true colors and it’s not pretty. i’ve voted republican all my life but any republican that even REMOTELY aligns itself with the tea party, will not get my vote. GO POMEROY!!!
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We should also not profile people who wear stockings over their face, they are not all robbers.
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The hot dog stand in NY is kind of funny, though. Unfortunately, I turned out to be allergic to lobster.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/20/naacp-tea-parties-nationalism-racists-bigots_n_769443.html
This is a surprise…
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this is no surprise only an affirmation.
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alice, even drudge had this on his site. but you know what they ( tea party) said last time, NAACP is racist. well, what i say to that is ( if it’s so) , two wrongs don’t make a right. the tea party isn’t going to legitimize their racism by saying someone else is racist – in my eyes.
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We are being screwed by our elected representatives. The two party system is broken. It does not serve the public, it serves themselves. Anyone elected first term is infected and corrupted by the entrenched status quo and their new ideas and moral compass goes out the window. There should be term limits. No more career politicians. Then you will see change for the better.
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It is easy to see that liberals want and need division. That is how they mantain their power.
The Tea Party is simple and straight forward, and is a huge factor in this election cycle. So the left can only start with name calling and finger pointing.
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OMG, I just heard violins in the background and saw a mental image of the Statue of Liberty against a starry, night sky with red white and blue fireworks exploding all around!
Whatever do you mean by disgusting alternative?
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Cute 2 Cents-you’re a republican! You sound like a liberal. Admit it, be proud. Go Earl? What? More spending, more programs, more Washington, less rights…
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haha–actually Alice, I am quite grateful that I have never seen you puke a little in your mouth….whew….not a good mental picture.
oh and I love the Christian use of the tern “aholes” now that was classy….and curiously remains unremoved as has the one extremely crass reference to t and you know what by someone on the stripper page—(but mammabear your innocuous comment got the boot? And wait a minute now that I think about it more was that the one about baptism???? sigh…the double standard is showing again guys)….
Whenever a deep though pops into your head, feel free to post it.
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I have no idea why my reply to Alice ended up here. Well no I take that back I do….
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