New sex ed funding ends decade of abstinence-only
October 1, 2010 at 12:19 am in Grand Forks Herald
Beginning this school year, a five-year, $375 million grant is being divided among 28 programs that have been proven to lower the pregnancy rate among participants, no matter their focus. Many programs distribute condoms, but about half also aim to boost teens’ academics, get them involved in extracurricular activities and even improve their parents’ job status. Continue Reading
I agree with the premise that you need to talk to your kids about sex, about everything.
But please keep the government out of it. I don’t want strangers talking to my kid and putting their beliefs about sex, about everything, on my kids.
No thank you, please.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
You speak for yourself–I want to see properly qualified heath education professionals educating our kids. Only that way will the deluge of misinformation and nonsense from peers, media, miscellaneous bible thumpers, etc., be properly countered. It’s not about “beliefs” — it should be about evidence!
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
I’m wondering if you would please share this “evidence” are you so admittedly placing your faith in about sexuality and why ALL public school children should learn your position. You say that peers, media, and “Bible Thumpers” bring all sorts of misinformation and nonsense, yet you bring nothing to the discussion beyond this ambiguous “evidence” that you speak of to support your own personal agenda. I’m sorry, but your comment comes off as rather pompous (not saying you are or that this was your intent…just that it appears this way) when you condemn other views yet do absolutely nothing to give a viable, thought-provoking alternative.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Then why don’t you take your kids down to the county health department for some education?
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Some people like to have power and control over other people’s kids. That is liberals, communists, socialists, and fascists.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Um, I can think of a couple of conservative’s living in our democracy who seek to not only stop my children from learning basic science, but getting appropriate information on their reproductive health.
Pretty controlling to ME, I not only want my children to learn ALL science, but to understand getting pregnant happens when you have sex… Not when God approves of what you do.
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
Republic… not democracy.
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
I have only heard of conservatives wanting alternative theories discussed along side of evolution. I have not heard of any seeking to not teach evolution at all. I’m not really sure how it is controlling this way, it seems to me they are encouraging free thought here, in proposing the two theories be taught side by side.
I remember when we were taught about safe sex in school, that abstinence was the only thing that works 100% of the time. I’m not sure how that is not reasonable.
Perhaps we should tell them that abstaining is not a choice. Maybe we should just tell them that we are predestined by biology to have no control over our nether-regions at all.
Is this what you suggest? Also, can you tell me any other method to prevent pregnancies that works 100% of the time?
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
First, there’s no such thing as “properly qualified education professionals.” If you were to get an education degree, you’d know what a joke it is. Any teacher worth their salt will admit to that.
Second, tax payers have a right to not pay for government ed.
Third, feel free to put your kid in compulsory factory modeled government schools and play Russian Roulet with your kids, please, join all the other idiot parents. http://www.freedomofeducation.net
Fourth, as an anti-thiest, I don’t want my kids prostelized at, at a government school, which is a regular accurance at government schools. There’s no separation of church and state. UND students are allowed to pass out christian rock concert flyers on the steps of high schools, muslim kids get prayer room chapels right in our public schools. And lots more like that.
So feel free, justwhatever, to play Russian Roulet with your kids in school.
But its not smart.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Lets get this straight — you want to home school your kids AND dictate what happens in public schools? If you want to home school your kids go ahead, but keep your nose out of the schools if you do please! BTW, if you are home schooling your kids, get some help teaching them to spell.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
This argument is seriously lacking. Just because someone chooses an alternative education for their own children (home-school, private, etc.) doesn’t mean that they should not have a voice, as tax payers, in matters related to public schools. Based on your argument then anyone who doesn’t have children in the public schools should not have a voice in the discussion, which is absurd.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
I’ll concede somewhat to your logic, but please note that my reaction was largely to the hyperbolic rant. I’ll happily listen to any constructive criticism–which YNTBE’s post was not!
Like or Dislike:
0 
2
On a public berm, people are free to proselytize to whomever they wish. See first amendment.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Agreed, Sioux. We cannot have appropriate public discourse unless we hear ALL sides of the arguments… even the utterly stupid ones.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
It isn’t about validity, it is about the first amendment.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
I think you are right, youneedtobeeducated.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Think for yourself, formian.
It might surprise you.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
I think, therefore, I am.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
To Justwheversec
Anybody whose been forced, and tortured to the 12 year sentence of industrial, factory modelded so called education, is not only an expert on school, just as much as any so called K-12 teacher, but also has an inherent right to have a say about what goes on in school. I was forced, due to my parents being brainwashed, and their ignorance, into going to K-12 government school, so I have a right to my 2 cents thrown in on what goes on in schools. And that despite that I and my wife, who was also forced to go to government schools, save tax payers big, big bucks by homeschooling our three children.
I’m implore everyone to read, “Dumbing Us Down” John Taylor Gatto.
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
Just how are you saving any taxpayers ANY money by homeskooling? Don’t you pay property tax? Or, if a renter, doesn’t your landlord?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
YNTBE, you have a perfect right to criticize, and to homeschool your kids. You also have the right to challenge schools that utilize bad educational practices, or sponsor illegal activities (e.g., you mentioned religious proselytization). Similarly, readers of your comments have the right to challenge you when you go beyond reasonable criticism into the realm of offensive and dogmatic assertions. Yes, there is plenty of room for improvement in schools (and everywhere else!), but there is also lots to be proud of — especially in this part of the country. If you want a reasonable debate, then how about starting by toning down the name calling and hyperbole?
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
To Bacon: The school gets around 12,000.00 in tax payer funding for every child that enrolls in school for the year. So, for my three children, because my wife and I homeschool them, the school is out $36,000.00 a year in tax payers money they would have gotten. Schools hate this too. But too bad, I’d rather save tax payers the money, and my kids from the institution called school, which has nothing to do with education, and more to do with social engineering. Something you’ll never hear about in the education department at UND.
To Justwhateversec: I would say to you, that schools are perfect. Perfect in that they do exactly what they were designed to do in the first place. Its called social engineering. Read about it in books by John Taylor Gatto who was a New York English teacher for thirty years, got a big award for it, then at the speech blew everybody away by telling everyone what schools really, what they really accomplish, and the history of schools, the how and whys of how they got that way. My 2 cents thank you very much.
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
youneed, what about my original question?
Do you or do you not support public schooling with your property tax dollar?
And, of that $12K you claim the system gets for every child, do you think that you are avoiding that somehow by homeschooling? Just where do you think that ‘taxpayer dollar’ is coming from? Are you getting some kind of rebate for homeschooling?
If so, I’d just love to know where it comes from.
I think someone really does need to be educated!
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Yes, I not only save tax payers $36,000.00 a year because they don’t have to foot the bill for my children, but I do pay in taxes like everyone else for those kids who do go to government schools. That’s a given. So what?
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
Sigh…you just don’t get it, do you?
Well, I’ll try, but I don’t suppose it will help.
youneed, those tax dollars you pay in are going to educate kids in the schools that you seem to hate so much. Whether you homeschool or not. The public schools get so much per kid, and the only effect you’re having is to cut back the allowance for three kids.
Meanwhile, that allowance is going to three other kids, kids who you might NOT like to be paying for? And from the gist of your posts, that could be just about any kids.
I hope that helps.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Why should he pay for 3 other kids whose parents are perfectly capable of paying for themselves?
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Because, that’s the way it is.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Haha, is that your real answer?!
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Whole lot of stupid comments that miss the real point here. Sadly, we are still funding abstinence programs when they have been shown to be ineffective. The worst part is that Pawlenty refused to accept a fully funded program from the feds that did not include AO, and instead bought into this half a**** program that requires a $375,000 state match. TP again demonstrates his contempt for good and effective government and the citizens of this state. Vote Dayton.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Um, Isn’t Pawlenty going for congress (or was it president, am from ND), thus clarifying why.. .as the Republican candidate, he needs to keep the hard stand on AO?
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
Sorry but you are wrong, check this out http://www.choosingthebest.org/research_results/index.html
there are many other articles showing it does have an influence and there is some evidence that it is more effective than other sex educations. But it seems the best is both. With the abstinance education up to around 14yrs. then adding in birth control education at that time.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
The stakes are pretty high for kids if they stay ignorant of the facts. They could become pregnant or end up with social diseases or even AIDs. There are alot of potential psycological scars associated with both. I don’t think kids, for the most part, get the facts at home either. Most parents squirm at the thought of having “the talk” with the kids. Once armed with the facts kids can make thier own choices and take thier own risks but at least they know the potential outcomes of thier actions. It’s part of becoming an adult. What could be better?
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
You are right John, but where was the rational for turning down over $850,000 for a broad sex education curricula that required no match for one that was not only less comprehensive, requires a $375,000 match from the state and includes questionable abstinence only classes as TP recently did?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Con Brio – I am not in agreement with turning down the money. As a matter of fact it should have been accepted. Tpaw used the issue for his own political ends not for the bettermen of MN kids.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
How well did Palin educate her daughter???? What about Vitter and Ensign???? Don’t forget Sen Wide Stance. Look at all those gay right wing preachers. Lets all take our kids to these ‘Moral Values’ Folks for some good education.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Jeff, I sort of see what you are saying, but let me play devil’d advocate here by using an entirely different issue. Let’s say your physician tells you that it is important to eat right, avoid tobacco products, exercise, etc. if you want to have a healthy body, but yet he doesn’t practice any of these things personally. Does that make his advice (or what he believes) invalid? My main point, just because someone has a difficult time living out their convictions doesn’t mean that what they believe is untrue or not the highest ideal. It just means that it’s difficult.
I’m guessing we all know celebrities who oppose abstinence programs whose lives have been negatively impacted by “safe sex.” However, to highlight them would do little to further the debate.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Thats right, Thomas Jefferson was profoundly anti slave, yet he owned slaves. The country held onto slavery for over 100 years AFTER he died… so its right for him to have owned those slaves……
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
Vertigo, what are you saying here? How exactly is slavery related to what living logic said?
I believe he said it is difficult to live out your convictions, I don’t think he said because it is difficult to live out your convictions your failures actually become the correct action.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
According to the article,
“Carrera’s methods are taught to 2,500 children in blighted neighborhoods in Washington, D.C.; New York; Flint, Mich.; and Toledo, Ohio. Thirty-five organizations around the country applied for the HHS grant to replicate Carrera’s model, which could reach an additional 3,500 kids if all the applications are approved… The five- to six-day-a-week, nearly year-round approach follows children from age 11 through high school graduation and costs $3,500 per student per year.”
So it would cost $21 million dollars to “reach” 6000 kids per year! Why don’t you just bribe them with one-tenth that amount?
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
In the places where they hand out condoms like candy the pregnancy rate is sky high. Abstinence works every time it is tried.
Like or Dislike:
3 
1
Zardoz, there is no evidence supporting your claim, abstinence only is an abject failure with a pregnancy rate as high or higher than the honest education method. Carrera’s methods actually work, bribery does not.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
The Carrera Program’s own website claims a 50% reduction in adolescent pregnancy. Assuming a sky-high pregnancy rate of 1 in 6 per year (167 per 1000), the Carrera Program costs $42,000 for each avoided pregnancy. What a great deal. They have a button you can click on the website to donate. If you and me can round up 42 generous folks to donate $1000 each, we can help one poor kid not get pregnant next year.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Good point Tim, but you have to look at the other side as well: what is the cost of adding that pregnancy, both in terms of the effect on the mothers life and the cost of raising that child?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Of course it is. You just aren’t going to convince people to stop having sex.
So your abstinence education is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
Just saying “no” prevents teenage pregnancy the way “Have a nice day” cures chronic depression.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
So based on this reasoning there can be no accountability or restraint for the way people express their sexuality.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Living Logic, if that is really what you surmised based on the comments, then the issue is your lack of reading comprehension, not that you disagree with a viewpoint.
Like or Dislike:
0 
4
My statement had never mentioned or suggested accountability or restraint. It simply points out that the solution of “just say no”, aka abstinence has little to no impact on the problem of “teenage pregnancy. Just as the solution of “have a nice day” has little to no impact on the problem of Chronic depression.
Everyone is accountable for their actions. Personal restraint is an individually determined idea. If someone wants to have sex with people they will. Abstinence shouldn’t be the only education given. All sexual options should be educated.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Because we cannot control ourselves, right bill? Biology makes decisions like that for us, we have no say.
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
I don’t understand why there is an argument about sex education FACTS. Why can’t the school’s teach the FACTS? Are we actually divided about the human body and it’s makeup? Really? What happens to the kids whose guardians will never have that uncomfortable discussion with them? I am all for this discussion taking place in the home but we know this does not always happen in our imperfect world and those children are probably the ones at a higher risk of the consequences. Why can’t sex education FACTS take place at school AND in the home? What is the harm in that? What are some parents afraid of?
Like or Dislike:
0 
2
cece — the problem is the high level of religiosity in the USA. The main religions in this country are obsessed about sex — which they see as dirty and sinful. Thus, sex education is, by definition, also dirty and sinful. Taken to extremes, this results in religious campaigns against not only sex education, but against things like vaccination for papilloma virus infections. I’d bet that when an AIDS vaccine is finally perfected, there will be religious leaders against it. After all, the disease of god’s punishment for the sin!
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
This statement is not only entirely inaccurate, but absolutely ignorant. It’s frustrating when individuals simply parrot the liberal left and never learn the facts. I consider myself a religious person and I’ve never viewed sexuality as bad, sinful and dirty when expressed as God intended. Take a look at Song of Solomon (AKA Song of Songs) in the Old Testament and you will see otherwise.
Like or Dislike:
3 
1
“Entirely inaccurate” and “absolutely ignorant?” Yeah right! If I’m parroting anything it’s the religious right — not the “liberal left” (unless of course, “focus on the family” and the “family research council” are what you are talking about? As for what “god intended” you have to cherry pick pretty selectively to form an opinion other than god is pretty up tight about sex!
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Whats even worse is that kids for the past 10 years have had ZERO sex education. My male cousin, who is 18, did not even know what a tampon was used for or how it was used. I remember when I had sex ed all the students learn EVERYTHING about sex and reproduction. This was in the 5th grade. Boys knew about tampons, pads, periods and girls know about morning wood and wet dreams. We all knew that if you had unprotected sex you would get STDs, that we saw slides of, and very well could get pregnant (even the first and only time!!). This idea that sex or the human body is dirty needs to leave our society. Its a human body…simple…nothing gross or dirty about it. When are we going to grow up and not fear simple natural facts?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
I can’t stand religion. I think religion is a bad idea. I don’t think humanity will truly evolve until humans get rid of all religious ideology. If I had to claim a religion, I’d say its freedom. My religion is freedom.
And I don’t consider it a free thing to have my children in school, preached at by strangers with ideas about sex, the world, and so on to my children. So I don’t. If parents really knew and cared about what happens in school to their children, if they were educated as to what school is really all about, they would never send them to school. Kids can find out anything they want to know about sex, and tampons, from the internet.
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
Wow, the internet is the future of education? Youneedotbeeducated really does need to be educated; go back to school and pay attention this time.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
“when expressed as God intended. ”
That isn’t for you to decide or even tell anybody about. I don’t even want you TELLING my kids there is a certain way to have sex that god wants for them. Ever. Keep that opinion to yourself. It has no place in any school EVER.
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
I never said that biblical or religious views should be taught in public schools. I strongly believe in separation of church and state. Thanks for taking my comments out of context as I was clearly addressing other comments about “how all religions view sex as sin” (which I was stating is entirely inaccurate). Someone once told me, “if that is really what you surmised based on the comments, then the issue is your lack of reading comprehension, not that you disagree with a viewpoint.”
So what gives your view more authority over others? Why should all other voices be silenced and yours upheld? Seriously, how is this not closed minded? I encourage you to not be afraid of the dialogue with those who have differing views. I’m not threatened that you have a differing view of sexuality than I do, I hope you feel the same.
On a side note, I think that it’s funny how the “progressives” are so hypocritical. They are incredibly closed minded, yet they hurl these same accusations to moderates and conservatives while boasting how open-minded they are! I don’t get it. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say you are open-minded and progressing, while telling others to be quiet.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
Why should voices be silenced? Who is silencing anybody?
I’m saying if you bring up god or religion, you better be in church or your livingroom, but you sure as heck better not be in a school. “How god intended.” Oh do tell. How did god intend for us to pleasure each other sexually. I can’t wait to hear this…
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
within the confines of marriage Einstein….go hang from the chandelier–but within the confines of marriage…Never fails to give me a laugh that atheists think that Christians have the sex lives of a nun–or that if they have 3 children that means they have only had sex three times. Ridiculous.
and p.s. haven’t you been able to process the fact that Christians will post views because they are driven by Christianity? Hindus will post with a Hindu perspective …and the God-less post views from an entirely self-centered point of view because that is all they know. So you saying (repetitively and tiringly) on every post for Christians to keep their Christian perspective out of their post is no different than us telling you to keep your self-centeredness out of all of your posts. Get it?
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
I feel sorry for your kids, you express a very bent and myopic point of view, and if thats the only thing they are going to learn, they are going to be more twisted than you are.
Let them fly You Need. Let your children be exposed to life and all ideas; teach them how to make meaningful decisions for their own best interest.
They cannot learn to care for themselves if you don’t teach them.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
Exactly who are you directing that towards, vertigo?
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
You Need To Be Educated.
Reading his posts, and his fundamental philosophy on how children should be educated…. like WOW! He is going to have some finely tuned… twisted children by the time he finishes with them.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
You may be surprised. Every person is an individual.
I couldn’t agree more with this statement of his, however: “I can’t stand religion. I think religion is a bad idea. I don’t think humanity will truly evolve until humans get rid of all religious ideology.”
Like or Dislike:
0 
2
I don’t deny that… but the Orwelian ’1948 esque’ conspiracy theory on our education system is a little mind blowing. Dunno if he came to this revelation before or after too much Acid.
I too considered home schooling, but not because I was afraid my independently thinking children were going to get brainwashed by a government conspiracy, but because I knew my children were above average, and I could guide them through their education faster than the schools would. Home Schoolers tend to graduate earlier with higher GPA’s.
What changed my mind is when I started checking options, something kept coming up clear. In public schools, my children were guided by people.. perhaps not the strongest in their areas of expertise, but people who were educated in “Teaching People”. The term for this is pedagogy. They were taught when to teach a child who’s development is right for learning the topic best… and how much of it they could teach.
In Homeschooling, they would just have me.
In the public school, they woulnd’t have just one, but as they grew older, many. In K-5 it was just 2. In 6-8, it became 6-8 trained teachers working as a team. Now that my son is in 9th (-12), it is becoming better than 20 teachers available for him to learn from… teachers trained in teaching what he can learn at that age. The larger the schools, the more kids recieve this resource.
Thats powerful. In Homeschooling, they would just have me.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
I can’t disagree with that, Vertigo. Very valid points.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
interesting comments Vertigo (well not really)
hey–did you ever learn the little ditty–i before e except after c ? good thing for someone to learn themselves prior to potentially teaching others how to spell ???
and didn’t you just have two daughters on some of your other crazy posts? you might want to start keeping all of your identities straight–maybe get out a sticky note or something to remind yourself of each of your different specs–you’re starting to mix up your stories.
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
Very true not Bastet. Judge Judy always says “If you tell the truth you don’t need a good memory”.
Like or Dislike:
3 
1
bill berditzman said: On October 6, 2010 at 9:24 AM
“You may be surprised. Every person is an individual.”
Except if they are gay person who seeks prayer and counsel, then they are to be ridiculed and shamed for leaving the LGBLT (sicop) orthodoxy.
Like or Dislike:
1 
2
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/abstinence-4215.htm
As noted on their page…About Abstinence “Facts”
“There are few disadvantages to abstinence.
People may find it difficult to abstain for long periods of time and may end their period of abstinence without being prepared to protect themselves against pregnancy or infection.”
That’s the only arguement they have against it…that people may not be prepared for having sex if they should find it too difficult to abstain. Does that mean that people should abandon the notion that they still need to be responsible for THEIR OWN BODY, even if their hormones “take over”. Is this the same logic that brought us the “PMS” excuse for murder?
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
Are you saying people should only have sex to reproduce?
Rieka, you aren’t going to convince people to abstain from sex. You just aren’t. Period. That is the unabashed truth, and it cannot be denied. Most people like to have sex and it is in our nature to like it.
You’re right. Not having sex is the only “for sure” way to not get pregnant or catch a disease. That is irrefutable. It just doesn’t convince people to not have unprotected sex.
Isn’t that your goal, to convince people to not have unprotected sex, so that they may avoid the pitfalls of unexpected pregnancy and communicable disease?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
My goal, Bill, would put an end to wanton, on demand, unprotected sex, where the people involved erase all logic for a few minutes of physical pleasure that may very well end in YEARS if not a lifetime of consequences to pay for.
I am not a fool. Telling you to stop having sex would be like believeing I could move a mountain. I would have better luck with the mountain and a shovel.
Can I ask that you take total responsibility for YOUR private actions, or is that too much to ask?
Put a hat on the little guy, or keep it in your pants if you are NOT sure of the safety of HIS travels.
Alternatively, ladies, if you aren’t sure the dude wants to be the father of your baby and provide for it, and you’ve not employing a birth control method correctly, don’t expect me to feel sorry for the train wreck that may happen. I didn’t spread YOUR legs.
Private choices = private responsiblity. I can’t take away your right to have sex, or to reproduce…but don’t expect me to like having to pay for YOUR private choice to have an unplanned pregnancy.
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
Rather lofty goals, there Rieka. I commend you though for finally acknowledging there IS a need for birth control… and it SHOULD be commended.
One must remember, taking a “Moral High Ground” isn’t done to make the world a better place, its to control other people. In your own post, you said your objective is … and I quote..
“would put an end to wanton, on demand, unprotected sex, where the people involved erase all logic for a few minutes of physical pleasure”
Yes, “end all wanton on demand unprotected sex”
Nope, not protect people from STD’s, not prevent pregnancies.. just control the behavior that leads to it. Until you stop trying to control people and instead work together with them for a common goal, you will be wasting your breath.
The reality is, an adolescent who has crossed the line to having sex isn’t going to stop. Documented fact. There are an abundance of teen pregnancies to prove it. We need to provide them with the tools they need to protect themselves, not judge and control them.
Abstinence Only is controlling behavior, and doesn’t work. Proven fact,
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
Vertigo, your first line is BS.
Grow up, take responsibility for YOUR actions and we will have have a much better world to live in. I suppose we can conclude that you would rather be the cheerleader for a cause that has increased the burdens on society for atheir own personal choice to try to have carnal knowledge of as many other individuals as possible. Yeah, sex. You have it, the rest of us may end up paying for it. If you are on my insurance plan, the rest of the premium payers pay for YOUR wife’s c-section, whether she needed one or not.
BTW, you are a liar, I didn’t just discover we need MORE birth control…I’ve supported that fact all a long, but you can’t seem to have grasped that fact since day one. Having more, doesn’t mean people use it, and that is a sad fact. As it stands right now, not having BC is a BS excuse, there are plenty of options NATIONWIDE to secure it.
A failure to plan is a plan for failure. Easy concept, try teaching it the kiddies and maybe they will give up on trying to make excuses for their bad behavior.
Don’t break your arm while you are trying to pat yourself on the back for trying to look like you are something your are not…a reasonable person to discuss the facts of life with. My guess is you don’t mind paying for other peoples crap…because you don’t really have to…your crap has always been covered by someone else.
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
Vertigo– re your comment: “….isn’t done to make the world a better place, its to control other people.”
I would argue that people who are too irresponsible to figure out how to use birth control in this day and age and then expect to have the rest of their lives financed by the taxpayers are trying to CONTROL us…..
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
“My goal, Bill, would put an end to wanton, on demand, unprotected sex, where the people involved erase all logic for a few minutes of physical pleasure”
Sex is FOR a few minutes of physical pleasure. And why not do it when you want to do it, AS you want to do it?
Nobody can decide how I have sex, or with whom or under what circumstances, sorry. That isn’t the government’s role in my life.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
“Nobody can decide how I have sex, or with whom or under what circumstances, sorry.” Actually, there are laws which govern sexual expression (minors, bestiality, can’t be done in public, etc.).
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
“Would you then try to tell me that because you NEED to have sex, you shall have it whenever and whereever and with whomever you please?”
Within reason, absolutely. And it’s my right to do so. Just as it’s not your right to say I can’t.
I’m not trying to take your money, or argue that anybody else should get to take your money, in order to fund anything, regarding this subject.
I’m not sure where that statement of yours even came from, to be honest.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Bill, never said it was the role of the government to enter your bedroom to tell you how to have sex and with whom or what.
Don’t use the government to reach into my pocket to pay for the mishaps your wanton use of your body causes, to you or someone else. I wasn’t driving your body…or are you trying to tell me that physical pleasure overrides commonsense and personal restraint? Would you then try to tell me that because you NEED to have sex, you shall have it whenever and whereever and with whomever you please?
that is laughable. The right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, doesn’t necessarily mean you should be able to spend other people’s dough to pony up the funds to pay for your own deeds.
We can’t afford to have more people like this guy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/27/desmond-hatchett-29-year_n_208393.html
This is an extreme example of a growing problem…
It’s a yours, mine, and ours kind of thing.
Can’t say that I pity any of the adults…but it is kind of sad for those kids, isn’t it? Their daddy can’t be much of an influence in their lives if he’s busying earning minimum wage and looking for the next available woman to take him in, literally.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
That is not a legitimate argument.
I never argued I should be able to have sex with a dog in front of a school.
Grow up.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
“Who said it had to be with someone else? Isn’t self gratification, or even mutual “outercourse†a valid way to acheive the same physical release?”
You go right ahead if you want to. That’s your right. Have fun.
But I’m not (and won’t be) obligated by the government to do that for any reason you listed.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
“Sex is FOR a few minutes of physical pleasure”, indeed. Who said it had to be with someone else? Isn’t self gratification, or even mutual “outercourse” a valid way to acheive the same physical release?
Everyone has options. It would be nice if they chose the best options available to reduce the risk of pregnancy or disease. One that is totally free, but takes a responsible person to employ is the act of keeping it zipped.
If you aren’t “covered”, is it really wise to forge ahead? In this age, I would think that picking up a piece of meat at the local lounge could come with life long consequences that you may not be able to get rid of with a simple medical treatment or procedure.
If government didn’t wipe the butts of millions of people by footing the bill for all those kids, perhaps women would have enough sense to NOT get pregnant and guys would have enough blood left in their larger head to remember that they have an obligation to pay for their fruit.
Face it, an unplanned pregnancy isn’t an accident…it’s playing the odds and losing.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
“If you aren’t “coveredâ€, is it really wise to forge ahead?”
That’s up to me to decide, not you or anybody else. You get no say.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Then perhaps you should get no PAY for making a poor decision…anything else is YOU spending MY money for your personal pleasure, right?
What gives you the right to expect I pay for the mishaps of your own creation?
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
“What gives you the right to expect I pay for the mishaps of your own creation?”
Where did I say I expect that?
I have 5 kids you’ve never paid a dime for, that I’ve never asked you to pay a dime for, so what in the heck are you talking about?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Bill, I have 6, all from the same father, birthed into a relationship that spans 3 years longer than the oldest child. Not a one that you or anyone else has to worry about having to directly foot the bill for, then or now.
I don’t champion for people to have the ability to walk away from their responsibilities so easily. I wouldn’t walk from mine, nor did anyone else in the family.
It’s obvious that you value your right to fornicate. Fine. I am pleased to know that you take parenting of your creations seriously. Awesome! I am sending a pat on the back.
Do you honestly believe that it is wise to allow people to believe that they have the freedom to do as they please, no matter what the consequences may be, just so they can have THEIR freedom guaranteed at the expense of a child’s minors right to be cared for until they reach a certain age, considered adulthood?
Is the act of sex more important than the LIFE of the creation of that union?
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
I’m not positive I understand where you’re going with this still, but I’m going to do my best to answer your questions. Forgive me if I misinterpreted your words.
“Do you honestly believe that it is wise to allow people to believe that they have the freedom to do as they please, no matter what the consequences may be, just so they can have THEIR freedom guaranteed at the expense of a child’s minors right to be cared for until they reach a certain age, considered adulthood?”
I didn’t quite understand this one. Did you mean “…at the expense of a minor child’s right…”
Yes.
But because of this:
The alternative being what? You want to legislate punishments for making retrospectively poor decisions and failing to rectify the situation that results from making bad decisions?
“Is the act of sex more important than the LIFE of the creation of that union?”
Of course not, but that isn’t a decision that is ever actually made, so it’s not really a fair question.
It’s tough to say “more important than…” when discussing cause and effect, and not two events on the same linear time scale. Do you know what I mean?
If I stopped to think of how I was going to pay for piano lessons, soccer camp and college savings every time I got ready to do the deed, it would kind of defeat the purpose. Or is that what you do? Sorry, I don’t have sex for procreation, although procreation has happened from having sex.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Bill–you can have sex with whatever dog you want to have sex with–as long as you pay for the puppies.
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
Lots of people abstain from sex Bill. You can’t is a blanket statement. Only one person would need to be found who has chosen to abstain from sex to prove your statement false.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Go to:
http://www.freedomofeducation.net
and then click on: unschooling rules
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Thats a great cite, You Need. I don’t have a problem with parents being active in, and participating in their childs education.
As I said, I considered homeschooling, and then chose Montessori for a while. I Highly reccomend it, they teach a child French from birth along with English.
I moved my children to public school for the exact reasons your cite said were bad things. When I talked to teachers, they said Montessori students didn’t have the focus and tended to be very disruptive in that social situation. The Cite talks about how Schools teach children how to conform, and fall into a certain “Groove”, but it disregards a certain truth.
Schools train you to fit into society, how to act when you get a job, how to handle conflicts, how to socialize in a group without dominating it, I could go on. These are very important lifes lessons children need to learn, the earlier the better!
These are also lessons often not learned by homeschoolers, and when they actually start living in the adult world, find themselves at a distinct disadvantage.
As I said, I don’t have a problem with Home Schooling, its a viable alternative, and it IS a basic right of a parent to do!
I just find you kind of scary. Anybody that subscribes so deeply into conspiracy theories is probably a very miopic person who will keep his children in a VERY narrow learning horizon and when they go out into the real world… its going to be difficult for them, I have no doubt.
Do you let them learn more… or less… than the Amish?
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
it’s SITE, not cite.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
No, In this case, I was referring to a CITATION, which implys it has more validity than just any webpage, its a good source.
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
OH, ok…
It’s a citation, not a great site.
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
I wonder what the pregnancy rate of Amish kids is?
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
Vertigo you must be getting dizzy and can’t see straight cause you need to meet some atheist or secular homeschoolers, and even some of the delusional religious self educators are pretty cool kids and parents. You scare me more.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
Whenever the argument gets this intense you can be sure that the issue points to something fundamental and personal at the core. And that something is: Are we the owners of our bodies and our lives, or are they a gift to us? However you answer the question, one thing is for sure: You carry the ultimate responsibility for your answer.
How the crowd thinks ultimately means nothing. Think hard and choose wisely for yourself, even if it means challenging everything you think you know.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Excellent post Tim.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Just an observation…and it hits below the belt.
I find it interesting, of the posters commenting, the overwhelming majority are self identified as male.
Could it be that they can’t stand that a woman might choose abstinence over any other method of birth control as the absolute 100% way to prevent pregnancy or disease?
Does it bother them to be told “No, NOT tonight, honey.”?
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
I’ve never been told that. My wife bought me a squirt bottle on our first anniversary to keep on my nightstand in case her advances were too much to keep up with.
There’s no misogyny here.
You can’t get people to all buy into your abstinence dreams, Rieka. Nor can you expect that everybody will buy into it, male OR female. There are some concepts you can’t PUSH onto people and make them live their lives by.
-I realize that’s bad English, but I’m in a rush at the moment.-
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Abstinence, like wether or not to have an abortion, is a personal choice, not something you can force other people to do… or not to do. When you call them evil sluts because they didn’t abstain.. to make YOU happy, to judge them for not living up to YOUR lofty unnatainable standard….. you only insult them.
To tell them they have to “Live With The Consequences” of their “Immoral Behaviour” because they didn’t live up to YOUR lofty goal objectifies them as incubators and stigmatizes them.. publicly humiliates and belittles them.
You weild a mean morality stick, and it does absolutly no good except to paint yourself as a bad person.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
I am a bad person for taking care of MY personal responsibilities? LMAO@ Vert. Thanks for underscoring the reason that there will never be a end to the dismal decline of personal responsiblity in this country. People like you want to continue to make excuses for it.
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
I agree with him. But nobody is calling you a bad person for taking care of your responsibilities.
He’s suggesting (I think. I don’t mean to put words in his mouth) you sound more like the bad guy for suggesting we could force people to abstain because you think it’s better for society than having pre-marital or casual sex.
You know?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Bill, FORCE is a subjective word. I can no more force you to do something than anyone else, UNLESS, I were to physically hold a gun to your head or physically hold you down to do something completely against your will. Both actions are quite illegal aren’t they? Obviously, I would do neither.
If the lack of sympathy or financial aid for BS choices were to curb the incidence of unplanned pregnancy simply by telling people that they have a personal stake in the act, how is that forcing them to refrain from sex entirely? It’s not, it’s telling them to be a big boy or girl and accept whatever comes of the event or take the steps to AVOID it. There is no gun, no physcial force, only the perception of force because society doesn’t want to let everyone DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO. Murder is illegal, Rape is illegal. Theft is illegal. We havien’t dropped the statutes on those moral issues and left it up to individuals to curb the incidence of any of them, have we?
It’s not illegal to say I don’t want to pay for anyone elses stupidity.
If a woman has sex with a man and she didn’t protect herself from an unplanned pregnancy or STD, how is it MY fault she has a problem? It’s not. Now, if the parties involved do not want to deal with their issue, they will turn to society to make it theirs. Thanks.
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
I don’t see why you’re suggesting we are paying for other people’s responsibilities on such a grand scale as you make it sound like.
Either way, teaching abstinence is still pointless, and wasn’t that what this is about?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
“If a woman has sex with a man and she didn’t protect herself from an unplanned pregnancy or STD, how is it MY fault she has a problem?” (Rieka’s quote)
More important, and what you keep missing the point on… is it ANY OF YOUR BUSINESS??? What gives you the right to judge her without even knowing all the details of her problem? You hit her over the head… repeatedly… with your morality stick, telling her YOU wouldn’t do that so she must suffer.
Very Christian of you, I must say.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
And in relation to vertigo’s original post, we can FORCE a person out of a uterus with a knife and vacuum.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Bill, abstinence is not pointless because you say it is. It remains the only sure fire alternative to surgery for preventing pregnancy and std’s. If kids are to have all the facts, then this one must be included.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Ain’t buying it. Rieka couldn’t possibly be taking care of her personal responsibilities with all the time she spends on areavoices.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
At it again, Nicole?
Like or Dislike:
1 
2
Everything is a personal choice vertigo. Sometimes those choices interfere with other peoples rights, like abortion.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
What of your morals vertigo? Why don’t you leave your morals out of this? Teaching my own kids about morality is my business, not yours, or their teachers. If teachers say that abstinence is the only thing that works 100% of the time, it is not a statement about morality, it is a statement of fact. I thought you wanted your kids to get all the facts?
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Perhaps we should just keep kids from under the age of 18 using gas station bathrooms? Oh wait, there are a number of folks who don’t believe in birth control at all. What this whole argument shows is that PARENTS must talk to their kids honestly and factually and explain that waiting until one is out of the hormonal-driven teens can be sensible but if that doesn’t happen, then being protected is great.
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
Well, Grandma, its time for me to have this “Talk” with my 14 year old. He already knows it all… GOD KNOWS he already knows it all. When I try to sit him down and have ANY kind of conversation… I’ll get the standard adolescent blank stare, a look like… “You GOTTA be kidding”, then he will find a wedge issue to go storming off to his room because sex is the LAST think he wants to hear from his old man.
The schools can hold him captive audience, and explain it a lot better than I can. it might actually get through.
This reason alone, is good enough to have full range sex ed in the schools.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
Vertigo, ever think of starting the talk a little earlier? Parents are involved in sex education from the time they are washing them in the tub and the questions about their body start. Perhaps parents need to grow a pair and open up and talk to them throughout their life.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Blah, blah, blah, blah…
Like or Dislike:
1 
2
Apparently you can’t be educated.
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
No one is ever going to be able to stop others from having sex –that is ridiculous. Should they abstain until they are old enough to deal with the consequences? Certainly. Hence the abstinence based programs. We can do that/or help to accomplish that with parental supervision. Allowing mixed groups of kids a bunch of unsupervised time alone together is the same as setting a 16 year old kid in a garage with a sports car– hanging the keys in plain sight and then stating “now don’t you dare drive this car–I will be gone for two days.”
Like or Dislike:
3 
4
I’m not sure what you are implying, Basted. Are you saying Sex Ed is only letting kids sit alone in a room and giving them permission to have sex?
Lets not be absurd… again.
Like or Dislike:
3 
3
At least we require drivers ed, a test and a license before we allow them a car. Why not the same approach to sex ed.
Like or Dislike:
1 
4
We need to provideour youth with all the tools they need to grow into successful adults. This means as much information possible so they can make informed decisions. Abstinence only education is not doing this by definition.
Like or Dislike:
4 
3
A sex license con brio? Wow, you are really something.
Like or Dislike:
5 
1
LMAO…I think you totally missed the point there, kiddo.
We give kids a lot of instruction before letting them drive…then we test them to
make sure they are knowledgable.
We need to give kids at least as much indepth instruction in sex to assure that they know the ‘rules of the road’ as it were.
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
Oh, you mean a booklet, a test, and then a hands on test? That is how a driver gets a license.
There are lots of people who think people should be licensed to procreate by the way. It is not that far fetched.
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
Vertigo said: On October 8, 2010 at 5:41 AM
I’m not sure what you are implying, Basted. Are you saying Sex Ed is only letting kids sit alone in a room and giving them permission to have sex?
Verti-gone WHAT are you talking about? that was completely crazy (again) and made no sense (again)….sigh… but yes, you are being absurd–again…
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
“Allowing mixed groups of kids a bunch of unsupervised time alone together is the same as setting a 16 year old kid in a garage with a sports car– hanging the keys in plain sight and then stating “now don’t you dare drive this car–I will be gone for two days.â€
That’s an execellent analogy to describe how abstinence only programs work.
They have already have all the fundamentals required for taking the plunge into sex and the only thing stopping them is someone warning them not to do it.
Personally, I think the best way to get a kid to do something is to tell them they can’t.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
well–take a break for a couple of days and I see everyone has gotten lost on the simplest of analogies—you guys aren’t even on the road any more–you’re driving around in the ditch …
I’m not talking about kids remaining uneducated–I’m talking about kids remaining UNSUPERVISED (big difference) …
Like or Dislike:
3 
5
My daughter is 16 and has had to help raise her two younger siblings from her mom and stepdad. She knows what responsibilities come with kids, and how they can saddle a young person with something they aren’t prepared to handle.
I spoke to her candidly about that stuff. I completely condone her spending the weekend at her boyfriend’s family’s cabin with their family and her mother won’t go along with it. As if that cabin was their big plan, and a parked car wouldn’t suffice if they were so inclined.
You can’t force anybody to do anything. You present them with the options and the consequences for each and they make THEIR OWN DECISIONS. That is life, people.
Like or Dislike:
3 
3
Wow Bill, have options and live with consequenses.. what a CONCEPT! And I thought all I had to do was judge them and they would do what I think is right!
Can I vote for you instead of Basted and Rieka?
Like or Dislike:
3 
3
Haha, too many skeletons in the closet!
I have good kids. I let them make their own decisions and they choose the right ones because they’re right, not because a god will be mad at them, or because I am forcing their every move to be what I want it to be.
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
A fantastic concept here, but on another topic, not so much. Shall we live with the consequences by having an abortion?
Like or Dislike:
3 
1
I cannot speak for that as a man, Sioux…. nor can you. The truth is, there ARE consequences the woman who has an abortion lives through… for the rest of her life she will have nagging regrets. She will always wonder about the relationship that was destroyed because of this decision. She will always have the “What Ifs” of not raising this child.
These may not mean much to you as a man, Sioux, but I assure you, every mother out there can understand what this means. It IS a consequence.
Like or Dislike:
4 
3
But Vertigo, you implied that people ought to be able to live with the consequences. If they ought to be able to do that then why would an abortion ever be necessary?
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
You can’t force YOUR consequences on them. They have free will and the right to make the choice.
Like or Dislike:
4 
3
Yes, these are the people who should teach our kids.
“It’s terrible,†Meyer says. “It’s like so much happened in that classroom.â€
She says she has witnessed multiple X-rated acts while in class.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2010/10/07/2-investigators-school-system-ignored-safety-concerns/
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
There is no reasoning with people who worship orgasm. Heaven for fend the idea of delaying the holiest of sensations.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
“There is no reasoning with people who worship orgasm. Heaven for fend the idea of delaying the holiest of sensations.”
The holiest of sensations….really? Dayum.
For years the priests and nuns tried to convince me that was the most carnal of sensations.
At least that explains why so many people holler “oh gawd’ during orgasm.
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
Priests and nuns don’t worship orgasm.
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
But a lot of people do.
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
For years the priests and nuns tried to convince me that was the most carnal of sensations.
Thats a twisted childhood, I feel sorry for you. When it was suggested I send my kids to a catholic school, I laughed at them.
I want my children to grow up into an adult world where there is affection and love, not fear of animal insticts.
Like or Dislike:
5 
3
I definitely agree.
I really don’t think you’ll ever see anyone describe orgasm as “the holiest of sensations.†though…whether in secular or religious teaching.
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
No, no one would ever actually use those words, as ‘holy’ is tantamount to a pejorative among secularist thinking. They would simply put the orgasm to the highest level of society. Don’t believe me? Go look at a magazine rack.
Like or Dislike:
3 
3
The only thing I have to say is what the He double L are Vertigo and Katydid talking about? I guess maybe that explains their avatars.
Like or Dislike:
4 
3
Next time, I’ll try to use smaller words and type slower so you can keep up.
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
Vertigo said: On October 9, 2010 at 10:46 AM
“I want my children to grow up into an adult world where there is affection and love, not fear of animal insticts.”
Translation: “I want to insert the uncensored adult world into my children’s world, so they can experience adulthood before they are ready, and leave their childhoods in the crib.”
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Holiest sensation?
That was probably the most inane comment I’ve ever seen on this forum.
Should we crack out a hail mary or two when we let fly with our holy water too?
Like or Dislike:
3 
3
LMAO
Like or Dislike:
1 
4
Instead of using smaller words or typing slower I recommend making a bit of common sense.
Like or Dislike:
3 
3
What exactly is it that you are having such a hard time understanding?
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
I understood every word! I think Sundown needs to take a couple of reading comprehension classes.
Like or Dislike:
6 
3
As far as my your avatar Katydid I’m still trying to figure it out. My best guess is it’s gay Santa Claus.
Like or Dislike:
3 
5
“As far as my your avatar”
OK, you lost me on that one.
Why are you trying to figure out my avatar? Is it important in any way?
Like or Dislike:
3 
4
No it’s not important. It’s just a matter or interest.
Like or Dislike:
3 
4
“a matter or interest.” ?????????
Like or Dislike:
2 
4