August 17, 2010 at 7:00 pm in INFORUM
A U.S. District Court judge says a lawsuit against Fargo over the Ten Commandments monument should be dismissed.
Tags: court, Federal Court, freethinkers, Ten Commandments 99 Comments »
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These people should go to NYC and advocate for the Muslims who want their mosque near Ground Zero. I’m assuming they would approve of that, since it goes against the public sentiment.
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Last I checked public sentiment has nothing to do with the Constitution. If you want to repeal the freedom of religion from the constitution then go right ahead. You people are no better than the Taliban.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 45 16
It is the freedom of religion that means you are free to choose to worship or not whatever you want. It is not freedom FROM religion where you never see a religious symbol anywhere. I also point out that the taliban would have already beheaded you. There would not be a discussion.
Hot debate. What do you think? 24 22
Clearly, the “Freethinkers” need to grow up or get mental help. This country was founded by Christians. It is about 76% Christian and if you add the Judaism group, it goes to 78%. All the founding fathers were Christian of some “flavor.”
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Again, the country was not founded by Christians. Thomas Jefferson was NOT a Christian. According to the Montecello Research Department, “Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ…”
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I’ve always thought that Thomas Jefferson was most like a freemason, though he never formally joined, as far as records can prove, he certainly fits the Supreme Being belief that is fundamental in joining the Freemasons. As I understand it, Jefferson most rejected that ANY one religion should exercise it’s authority over another, or be allowed to use government as the hand to inflict punishment to those not of that belief. From what I found, he was NOT anti-religious at all, signing into action several measures that made government sanctions to include religion in otherwise govermental affairs…recognizing that allowing religion(any) was an asset to the morality of those affected by the legislation. This leads me to believe that ultimately, his enlightenment and security in his own faith allowed him to recognize that others equally deserve to have that same security without persecution.
http://srjarchives.tripod.com/1998-03/beless.htm It’s an interesting read…and give some footnotes to sources for what it stated.
I also found this exerpt from his inaugural address –
“And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions….
Let us, then, with courage and confidence pursue our own federal and republican principles…enlightened by a benign religion, professed, indeed, and practiced in various forms, yet all of them including honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude, and the love of man; acknowledging and adoring an overruling Providence, which by all its dispensations proves that it delights in the happiness of man here and his greater happiness hereafter; With all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and prosperous people?
Still one thing more, fellow citizens–a wise and frugal government…which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned… And may that Infinite Power which rules the destinies of the universe, lead our councils to what is best, and give them a favorable issue for your peace and prosperity.” -Sources for this quote and more are found on pp. 763-768 of America’s God and Country: Encyclopedia of Quotations by William J. Federer
I believe that he is as much a Christian as the majority of the people in America are. Having a belief set that had a foundation in a Christian God, and the writings in the bible. To say he was not a Christian would contradict historical writings in his own pen, collected and archived thru the years.
To me, he represents an early example of religious tolerance.
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Your comment is contradictory. I agree with almost all of it – that he believes in a god. But where do you get the basis of him being “as much as a Christian as the majority of the people in America” part? The majority of people in America believe Christ is the son of God, Correct? The majority of people in America believe Christ could perform miracles, correct? The majority of people in America believe Christ rose from the dead, correct? The majority of people in America believe that, to be a Christian, one must “accept Jesus as their personal saviour”, correct?
That being said, where is there evidence that Thomas Jefferson believed any of these beliefs stated above? In fact, his own words have stated and his actions have demonstrated that he did NOT believe Jesus to be divine, the son of God, that he rose from the dead, could do miracles, or that he was anything more than a moral human.
I’ll remind you that Thomas Jefferson stated, “â€œAnd the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. â€ This alone is contrary to your ‘belief’ that he is as much a Christian as the majority of people in America. The majority of people in America who call themselves Christian would NOT describe the mystical aspect and ‘son of God’ contention as a fable. You have to agree with that. The majority of people who call themselves Christian in America would not take a razor to the bible in order to remove all of the miracles and references to Jesus being a god, as Jefferson did.
So, I agree with all of your post until you came out of left field with the statement that Jefferson was as much a Christian as most of the people in America. I contend that most of the people in America believe Christ to be the son of God, that he performed miracles, that he is part of a Holy Trinity, that he died and rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father. According to his words and actions, Thomas Jefferson believed in none of that.
Hot debate. What do you think? 21 14
On March 4, 1805, Jefferson offered A National Prayer for Peace:
“Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners.
Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues.
Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth.
In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.”
kerry, run out in left field and find me a Christian that believes every inch of the bible, in every context, everyday. At best, it’s all interpretations of snippets of phrases attributed to a variety of people, translated and filtered multiple times. Christianity is very inclusive, it allows for a wide range of different beliefs due to differences in their interpretations of what they have been shown in the bible. Perhaps the core issue is the belief in a supreme being (GOD) and also believing in the teachings of Jesus. TJ may have parted ways on the “risen” status as a real event. Perhaps he thought that from that point on, it was merely a manefestation of the churches creation to make a real event out of a symbolic one. Who knows? It appears that he did often come under scrutiny for his enlightment. Some would not understand more complex interpretations of the bible and accuse him of not being Christian because he didn’t embrace every minute phrase.
By that loose definition, that would make me a Deist as well. A believer in s Supreme Being who just happens to be God.
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I also believe that Thomas Jefferson, as well as the rest of the Founding Fathers, were good examples of religious tolerance as they laid the foundation of this nation. I also believe some in the government are demonstrating less tolerance today than demostrated in the 1700s.
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You are right about less religious tolerance today, but i think that it’s individual special interests that have been allowed to instigate intolerance within the government, by encouraging legislation that targets specific groups and protects others.
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you know what Kerry? read this for info on the ORIGINAL/FIRST founding fathers…..
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The ‘Judaism group’? And they only account for 2% of the religions in the US?
For one thing, how in the world can you include Jews in a debate about Christianity?
Hot debate. What do you think? 18 23
b.a.c. the Jews are God’s chosen people. They are the people composing the stories/books of the old testament. Any Christian who is not on the side of the Jews in the last days is in trouble…and have you not heard of the new movement of Jews for Jesus? I take it you missed Rabbi K.A. Schneider’s message on Daystar today? you know…he’s on right after Joel Osteen….??? now there’s a thought maybe if some on here tuned into something where they could actually learn something…maybe there wouldn’t be so much crazy stuff on here?
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a correction to my post about the Jews—and they are of course the people composing the stories/books of the NEW testament as well…..
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Jews are Gods chosen people? They are the people composing the New testament ? You can learn something good from TV evangelists? Yea right.
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is there a third grader who doesn’t know that the Jews are God’s chosen people? everyone knows this…..you should get out more.
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Not all the founding fathers were Christians. Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, once wrote, “the Christian philosophy [is] the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man.” He expressed anti-Christian sentiments in many of his other writings too.
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Looks like this is a criticizm of the “system” not the belief of Christianity. Remember Christianity is not a organized church it is a belief a faith. An organized Church is not required.
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Looks like you don’t know what the word “philosophy” means.
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It’s almost as if Thomas Jefferson was agreeing with what Mohandas Gandhi said 150 years later when he stated, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
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The United States was”in no sense founded on the Christian religion”. Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.
The Founding Fathers were deists. They believed the universe had a creator, but not so much in the god of the bible. They believed Jesus was a real person, but not the son of god.
Thomas Jefferson even took a scissors to the bible, removing all the ‘miracles’ and magic and that is still in print today, known as the Jefferson Bible.
The Founding Fathers were students of Enlightenment. In fact, a half a century later, men of the cloth complained that NO president up to that point had been Christian. In a sermon in 1831, a minister stated, “Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism.”
Hot debate. What do you think? 33 21
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
Clinging to a treaty? I am sure the a lot of wronged people and nations can agree, since when have governments bean totally honest in their promises or their treaties. Does anyone think that they would be totally honest with a bunch of pirates, demanding yearly stipends and individual ransom payments for American’s they captured? “In 1795 alone the United States was forced to pay nearly a million dollars in cash, naval stores, and a frigate to ransom 115 sailors from the dey of Algiers. Annual gifts were settled by treaty on Algiers, Morocco, Tunis, and Tripoli.”
It should be noted that the piracy of the Barbary states was religiously supported, as they were inflicting both financial and physical loss upon non-muslims, extracting ransom payments or selling non-muslims into slavery. Since those “states” were theocracies, namely Islamic, and religious figures has signficant control of them, perhaps they needed to understand that the US wasn’t a Christian nation in the same way that they were Islamic nations. If they were waging a religous crusade on the US because they believed the nation was controlled by the church, they needed to be set straight on the matter. But that does NOT explain that the particular article is not found in any other treaties with other Muslim nations. Or that it is missing from the Arabic version.
It didn’t take long for Jefferson to abandon the appeasement game of paying off the pirates, and instead of sending payment to Tripoli, he sent ships. by the time the treaty was renegotiated 8 years later, the US was in a much better position and Article 11 is absent from the text. the US finally stopped making any payments to those states by 1815.
I don’t think that it’s existance or non-exsistance proves squat about the founding principals of the US. It provides a good distraction tho.
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Actually, that portion of the treaty is in a different writing and no one is quite sure where it came from. It is classified to this day as sort of a mystery. That said, America is a land of religious tolerance and one cannot legislate morality. I have no problem with the ten commandments and opposition to them is nonsensical and prejudice against Christianity. They’re not earth bending revelations. don’t kill, don’t steal. Can’t you find something that has more importance to argue about like our eroding civil rights?
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The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796.
Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations.
Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O’Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English.
From this came the added Amendment 11.
Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams (President)concurred, sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797.
All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern.
The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.
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I found this to be very interesting regarding that treaty.
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“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ” – Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.
This is the guy who is credited as being the author the Declaration of Independence. There is no more founding of a Father than this Founding Father. He was NOT Christian and to falsely claim that he was is disrespectful to him.
The Founding Fathers were students of Enlightenment. They were deists, beliving in a creator, but they were not Christians.
Hot debate. What do you think? 29 24
Wow. That is the largest pile of bullspit I’ve seen in a long time. You are, obviously, clinically insane. The Founding Fathers of this country and its Constitution and laws are ALL based on CHRISTIANITY. Go back to your mother’s basement and put your tinfoil hat back on.
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of U.S. Founding Fathers # of
Fathers % of
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
Hot debate. What do you think? 26 22
I think I found your site. http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
Thanks for posting it as, upon further reading (I noticed you left out some details), if you click on the religious labels, more details are provided.
For John Adams
Summary of Religious Views:
Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but ultimately rejected many fundamental doctrines of conventional Christianity, such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, becoming a Unitarian.
Later in his adult life Jefferson did not consider himself an Episcopalian, or a member of any other specific denomination.
On Ben Franklin:
Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult. And according to that site, Franklen stated, “As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity;”
So, call me names if you wish. But, your own souces prove that the Founding Fathers were not all Christians. The author of the Declaration of Independence did NOT believe Jesus to be the son of god. In fact, the site stating your statistics supported my contention that Jefferson and others were Deists, not Christians in the modern sense of the word.
Hot debate. What do you think? 28 19
Amazing, it doesn’t take much to become a deist. Just reject the church.
“Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in what is now the United Kingdom, France, United States and Ireland, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one god.”
On April 21, 1803, he wrote to Dr. Benjamin Rush, (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):
“My views…are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others…”
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Yes! In that letter he was stating that he was a Christian in the sense that he subscribed to the morals of the person called Jesus Christ and thought it good to live a life like him. Not that he believed in the godliness, divinity, or any other requirement for the traditional (and current) definition of “Christian”. He did not believe Jesus was the son of God, he did not believe Jesus rose from the dead, he did not believe Jesus performed any miracles. So, he is NOT a Christian in the same way that the majority of people in America are Christians. Agree?
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[Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin ChrÄ«stiÄnus, from ChrÄ«stus, Christ; see Christ.]
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
In searching for a more conclusive definition that would mirror Kerry’s definition, I found a couple other phrases to throw out there.
Cultural Christians and Cafeteria Christians. Both considered derogatory labels applied by fundamentalists to describe sects or individuals that do not adhere to their particualar belief set. One can agree that the US is certainly culturally Christian. It’s there, and always been there, hence we see reference to it thru-out history in symbolism and architecture, art and literature.
A recent survey http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2007/fall/1.19.html
Even more http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn3.htm
and there definition is as follows…
We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. That is, they honestly believe themselves to be a follower of Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ).
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It is also very common for Christians to question their faith at some point in their life. The Freethinkers, a bit of an oxymoron as they do not promote free thinking unless it agrees with their thinking, seem to think that every Christian is an absolute zelot their entire life. It is not at all abnormal that some of the founding fathers questioned their faith. I do agree that the USA was not founded as a Christian nation. But it was founded on Christian principals however.
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What are “Christian Principles” and how do they differ to Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Deist, Shinto, etc… principles?
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Source please! I provided quotes from primary sources. I provided an excerpt from a signed treaty STATING that the U.S. is not based on Christianity. I provided the actual words from Jefferson stating that he is NOT Christian. I also provided the example of Jefferson taking a razor to the bible, removing all of the ‘miracles’ and magic, the result showing that Jesus was a mere man who was the epitome of morality and not the son of any deity (odd thing to do if Jefferson were Christian). You provided no source for your information. For all I know you got it from some far-right-evangelical-Christian blog.
Hot debate. What do you think? 22 19
From the things I’ve read on Jefferson he clearly believed in a God and he was clearly a Christian with regards to his ethics, conduct, upbringing, and culture. If you don’t think that influenced the way our government is setup your wearing blinders. It seems every group is trying to lay claim to Jefferson including the atheists.
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Jefferson stated he did not believe Jesus was the son of god. That’s a pre-requisite for Christianity, isn’t it? I will agree that Jefferson did view Jesus Christ as a moral person, just not a deity. Jefferson actually spoke negatively toward those who thought Christ was more than a man. Don’t assume that ethics, conduct, and culture are owned by Christians. You are basically saying he was Christian in every way except for his religious beliefs. I would agree with you there. He was not an atheist, though I agree that some atheists try to lay claim to that.
From his writings on the matter, Thomas Jefferson was a deist, believing in a creator. He did not believe in the god of the bible, the trinity, or that Jesus was the son of god. He did not believe Jesus performed miracles or rose from the dead. Jefferson believed Jesus to be a great example of how an ethical person should be. That’s why he cut apart the bible to remove the stuff in which he did not believe.
Hot debate. What do you think? 22 11
Then if someone believes in the “Big Bang” theory wouldn’t they believe the “Big Bang” to be the creator but not the creator that is known in religion? On the other hand an athiest would believe that all of this appeared out of nothing with no cause or purpose?
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I think you are correct. Some who believe the universe needs to have a creator could believe a creator started it with the Big Bang. Others who believe that the universe exists without a supernatural creator might believe the big bang was the beginning of the universe and everything in it, including time.
Of course, Thomas Jefferson had no idea of the Big Bang. He argued that the complexity and balance of the universe required a creator. He did not believe Jesus to be the son of that creator though, so he was not a Christian in the modern sense of the word.
Hot debate. What do you think? 18 12
Seems as if there is just some misunderstanding about what “creator” means. You might say that the actual “Big Bang” itself could be termed the creator if you get away from the need for a religious connotation.
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I’m with ya. I think there may be a difference between some believing the creator having consciousness and purpose and others believing it being just an event.
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LOL, okay, how about there is no beginning and no end. That that is just is continually re-inventing itself. Which is most likely proven by the scientific laws that we observe.
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I remember reading one analogy used to answer “what was there before the big bang?” question as this: Since the universe and all in it began at the instant of the big bang, including time itself, the instant of the big bang, time = 0. So, asking what happened before the big bang is analogous to asking what exists a mile north of the north pole. Interesting way to put it.
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â€œwhat was there before the big bang?â€ Parallel universes; in fact many of them. All one of the same and just going from one to the other for ever and ever, no beginning no end.
What about the theory of ET aliens creating humans, ever wonder why there is a missing like in our history?
Was Jesus just a result of artificial insemination from an alien race of another planet? Was he brought here just to continue the believes of the aliens? After all, Jesus started Christianity they say.
How do explain so many UFO’ sightings in the Bible: all with the roars of thunder and smoke and fire, flying down from the Heavens,(the word for sky) in those days.
Even Moses’s grandfather wrote, that he was taken up into the sky in a silver object, and spent time with strangers who taught him how to use writing as a means of communication.
We will never know the truth of how our universe, our planet Earth or how we came into existence. Only if space aliens do come down and present themselves, or not until the end of time; if we believe in life after death, will we ever know for sure how we came to being..
We could drive ourselves crazy trying to imagine eternity, space and time, parallel universes and ET’s.
Life is to short to worry about how we started. The best way is to just live your life as a good responsible person, be generous to the needy, love your neighbor as yourself and we will all just get along fine.
Live long and prosperous. Seems Logical.
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Well, the problem is that if there is nothing to start with–what goes “BANG”?? It seems logical to believe that all the building blocks have always existed and just needed something to spark the “BANG” If there was nothing in the beginning there would still be nothing. :<)
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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
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There was never a BIG BANG. How is that for a theory? Space and time has always existed as well as the creator. If we can live forever after we go to heaven, as the Bible states, it seems possible that heaven has always been here also.
Isn’t eternity something fun to imagine about?
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Reika, would you agree that almost every Christian, as most Americans believe themselves to be, would set as the determining factor to be a Christian to believe the Jesus Christ is the son of God? Yes or no? If yes, then you would agree that Thomas Jefferson does not fit that definition? According to his own words and actions? Yes or no?
BTW … I know more than one person who believes every word of the bible as truth.
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….and a footnote here–why do these discussions between atheists/Christians always boil down to the actions or beliefs of ONE man–Thomas Jefferson? He is not the sole representative of the founding fathers. Look at the excellent post from the poster above who had the religious affiliation breakdown of the founding fathers –ALL were of the Christian faith. What the founding fathers were getting at in separation of church from state was the fact that they did not want ONE particular DENOMINATION (of the Christian faith) to overtake or force their opinions on the rest–not that God should be excluded from society as the attempts by RE-writers of history are doing today.
What it boils down to is atheists often pick Jefferson off the shelf and scrutinize his religious affiliations/beliefs in an very childlike attempt to instill one thing in Americans: doubt. It is the same in other areas– from Darwinism, to the big-bang, you name it. It is a tool used to remove people from their faith. Don’t fall for it.
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Don’t just look at the list. Look at the link from which it came. Then click on the ascribed ‘denomination’ listed for Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams to read more detail. Neither of them believed Jesus Christ to be the son of god, a savior, or that he rose from the dead. Wouldn’t you agree that these are central beliefs for a ‘Christian’?
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Why would your beliefs be put into doubt upon hearing that some of the Founding Fathers did not believe what you believe? If that knowledge causes you to doubt your beliefs, your beliefs must not be very strong to begin with.
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No–my beliefs are very strong, so that does not affect me–just people who are perhaps new to the faith or not very strong in their faith yet….and many people operate on a crowd mentality and are easily swayed. Which is why today you will see supposed Christians arguing FOR things at one date in time –where previously they would NOT have (i.e. gay marriage, etc.) You have to also realize that not every person occupying a pew is actually living the Christian life. Many are there to get a vote, look good in the community, traditions, etc. Arguments like: â€œJefferson wasnâ€™t a real Christianâ€ are just see-thru attempts by the left in the hopes of badmouthing Christianity. It is a slow chipping away at the base –proverbial frog/hot water thing. Some people can see through it–and some canâ€™t. And no, I don’t have time to argue with you today–so let’s just leave it at that.
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Yes, not Basted, the truth and facts have absolutely nothing to do with these kool-aid swilling, basket cases. They put on their “crazy” glasses and refuse, like petulent toddlers, to look at facts. They cite ONE guy out of many Christians that founded America on Christian values and ride that dead horse into the ground. Silly liberals. Facts are for grownups!
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I actually believe George Washington is more important to the founding of the country than Jefferson. There is a reason we call him ‘The father of our country”. Washington by his writings was definitely a Christian and I find it interesting that those arguing that the founders of our country were not Christians have omitted the name of George Washington.
Washington was a Deist. On page 82 og the book, Washington and Religion, the author, Paul F. Boller includes a quote from a Presbyterian minister, Arthur B. Bradford, who was an associate of Ashbel Green another Presbyterian minister who had known George Washington personally. Bradford wrote that Green, “often said in my hearing, though very sorrowfully, of course, that while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist.”
If you don’t believe Washington was a Christian, Kerry, you aren’t looking very hard. The second hand hearsay evidence you gave wouldn’t hold up in any court of law. Washington’s adopted daughter [also his step grandaughter] Eleanor [Nelly] Custis-Lewis wrote in 1833 to Jared Sparks who was writing a book titled “The Life of Washington” that George Washington was indeed a Christian. I suggest you Google [Geoge Washington Christian Quotes] with an open mind instead of going in with the pre-conceived idea that all the founding fathers were Deists.
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Oh and hey (I just read the actual story now anyway, from the article:
â€œThe group argues the cityâ€™s actions in 2007 caused new harm â€œby magnifying the feelings of exclusion, discomfort and anger caused by the original presence of the Ten Commandments monument on city property and by verifying the validity of those feelings.â€ â€œ
you know, since this article was printed in a public forum and the statements of the â€œFreethinkersâ€ (a term which I will use loosely) caused me great harm by having to just read of their views–can I sue them??? ha â€¦.just kiddingâ€¦.although wouldnâ€™t that make for a countersuit for the next time this (doesnâ€™t) get thrown out?
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(I haven’t read the article either Good post, though!
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No time to argue so we will agree. In fact, I do agree with everything you posted. Except that stating Jefferson’s own words about his beliefs are in any way badmouthing Christianity. It is those who claim that the U.S. was formed as a Christian nation who badmouth the Founding Fathers.
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Now just why would that be bad mouthing the founding fathers unless you find Christianity a bad thing.
Because it is portraying them as something they were not.
Many of the Founding Fathers were Christian. I am not disputing that whatsoever. However, the writings and actions of Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and a few others show that they did not believe Jesus Christ to be the son of God. Out of respect for them, they should be remembered correctly.
What I was trying to say is that describing them as Christian, when they actually wrote and acted in ways that proved that they did not see Christ as divine, is wrong.
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Now the “free”thinkers, who all think alike, can concentrate on building a homeless shelter and doing good works. As opposed to baiting religious people which seems to be their usual avocation.
Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: 10 20
Why should you set the agenda for the Freethinkers? Perhaps you do not volunteer at the food pantry the same times as they do. I know a number of the Freethinkers, and they volunteer for many organizations in F-M. Zardoz, what organizations do you volunteer for?
Hot debate. What do you think? 17 13
Grandma, because their agenda so far seems to be attacking religious people at every opportunity. I thought something positive might be in order. I guess you don’t agree. I am willing to contrast the freethinkers vs. religious believers in a contest of who does the most good in Fargo. Do you really want to take me up on that?
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Well, gee! Considering the number of folks in F-M who claim to be religious you’d think there wouldn’t be any problems left to solve…
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This is why this country is going to Dante’s Inferno in a handbasket. People are given freedoms that others countries won’t allow and yet they still whine and cry about their freedoms aren’t being met. Be happy you have any at all.
This is why the US is a laughing stock of the world. We allow anyone and their mothers to come in illegally pay them, feed them and give them insurance, let people file lawsuits over the stupidest things you can think of, not work a day in their life and get paid to sit at home, and let every free thinker out there come up with ways to disrupt the government.
The United States isn’t very United at all. We need to have an offical language and religion. Almost every country out there has this. Even Canada has an offical language. Heck they have two, but at least they have one.
Sure this country was founded on the thought of freedom, but those people even had rules on religion and language.
All I see is arguing over Thomas Jefferson. If I remember right he wasn’t around in the 1500′s when the beginning of America was being started. Those people were Christians. Jefferson was a christian. Not all christian religions believe in the same thing, but they all do call themselves christians because they believe in God, even the Freemasons. They started their meetings with a prayer. Look up christian religions and you will see hundreds of groups. They are still called christians. Just a different way of worshipped and looking at.
This garbage of removing the Ten Commanments is rediculous. Leave there. If you don’t like it then go there or look at it. These are people that just want to cause problems with anything. This is what I mean about having lawsuits over stupid things. This is about as stupid as the guy who sued another guy over a parking spot! Maybe I should sue my parents formake me live in Minnesota. People come up with the dumbest things to sue for just so they can free money.
Maybe we should get congress to actually start looking at ways to end this kind of garbage. They talk for days and spend billions on a war 10,000 miles away, why can’t they discuss this. Look at how many amendments have been changed over the years. I’m sure we can start doing that.
People abuse the first amendment to the point that they might as well take it out. That is the one that causes the most problems with people. It is sad that we are given these writes but yet congress turns their back on them.
This should be called the Divided States of America.
Hot debate. What do you think? 13 18
Dexter…really? Despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary, (in this thread alone) Jefferson was a Christian? What’s the big deal if he wasn’t? What’s the big deal if a bunch of the Founding Father’s weren’t Christian? Does it make being Christian better or worse? Big deal.
I think it’s interesting that you see gov’t support of a particular religion as the same thing as your parents making you grow up in MN. It’s good to see you respect the COTUS to such a degree that you would rather dismiss portions than respect it. We need a national religion?
I don’t think you want it to be the USA…sounds more like you’re eager for some type of Jesusland.
“Not all christian religions believe in the same thing, but they all do call themselves christians because they believe in God”
No, that’s not correct.
A belief in “God” would make one a Deist, not necessarily a Christian.
Clearly, to be a CHRISTian, one has to believe in Christ. And not only believe in him but, believe that he was indeed a supreme being, part of the Triune Godhead.
Jews also believe in God but, I don’t think anyone would qualify them as Christians.
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“We need to have an offical language and religion.”
Surely you can’t be serious. The only reason the US exists is because the people that came here to start it came here to get away from having an official/national religion.
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The personal religion of the founders is irrelevant. More relevant is the intent of the Constitution that they produced. That document clearly indicates that there cannot be a public establishment of religion. Whatever Jefferson was or wasn’t, he envisioned a nation without a state religion.
Now, the immediate question is whether a Ten Commandments monument on public property implies a state religion. Personally, I believe the monument is unconstitutional, but I’m also not that worried about it. When the cops start rounding people up and forcing them to go to church, then I’ll be more concerned.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike: 21 4
There is no “public” prohibition of religion. The Constitution prohibits the establishment of ONE official religion of the state. Christianity is not one religion it is a class of religions with some vastly different beliefs, ceromonies, practices and requirements for being a member of that church.
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I agree, whitewood…it would never be of such importance to me that I’d sue over it, but it doesn’t belong on city property. I think it’s unfortunate so many Christians need public displays of their religion…and wonder why that is. I’ve yet to hear any Christian explain why they need these public displays. What drives it? What drives building grandiose churches and other monuments to faith?
Ask those Muslims in NYC whay they want a 13 story mosque.
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They don’t want a 13 story Mosque.
What’s proposed is a community center of about 15 stories which, although it would include a mosque for prayer, would also have a swimming pool, an auditorium and other amenities that make it more akin to a YMCA than a dedicated house of worship.
If they only wanted a mosque…..as in a place of worship, they already have that right there and have for some time.
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OH, so it’s grown a couple floors already?
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There is an article regarding Obama’s Muslim Faith on the Forum and the “powers-that-be” have closed the comment section. This seems to be a pattern with the Forum. They also did this with the most recent gay “pride” parade article. How interesting that the almighty Forum considers itself so much more intelligent than the unwashed masses that they know what should be allowed for open discussion and what will NOT.
If AreaVoices doesn’t have the right to control the content on their site, who does? I have no problem with AreaVoices doing what they need to keep discussions in line with the terms and conditions.
“Areavoices.com has the right (though not the obligation) to, in Areavoices.com’s sole discretion (i) refuse or remove any content that, in Areavoices.com’s reasonable opinion, violates any Areavoices.com policy or is in any way harmful or objectionable, or (ii) terminate or deny access to and use of the Website to any individual or entity for any reason, in Areavoices.com’s sole discretion.”
It is just my opinion that they are censoring the exchange of opinions according to liberal “values” (if there is such a thing.) BTW, what is “harmful or objectionable” about discussing the most important issues of the day?
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I don’t think it’s because of liberal values, but rather, they know which topics tend to be the most incindiary and quickly degrade into namecalling, personal attacks, hate-speech, and continuous babysitting, comment removal, and blocking of posters. I think AreaVoices has the right to control the content on their site and they are just being proactive in staving off the personal attacks.
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then why don’t they do something about teh instigators of inflamatory remarks, insults and hatespeech. Why are the many punished by the childish actions of a few?
LOL…..do you really consider “Obamaâ€™s Muslim Faith” one of “the most important issues of the day?”
No because I don’t really care what “Daffy Duck” Obama thinks about anything.
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Probably because a discussion on “Obamaâ€™s Muslim Faith” would be nonsensical.
There isn’t now, nor has there ever been, any such thing.
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That’s because everything about B. Hussein Obama is nonsensical.
Are you trying to imply that Obama named himself when he was born?
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No, but if I had been him I would have renamed myself later on.
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How many people out there have family names they would not have chosen for themselves, be it a first or second name? And how many out there have legally had those names changed? And how could Obama, when he was born in Hawaii, have known that decades in the future his middle name would be used by silly folks to prove that he wasn’t 1) a citizen (although, before being elected he did obtain a US passport, which requires a certified birth certificate copy] and 2) that after his reputed “pastor” in Chicago was excoriated that he’d then be accused of being Muslin?
Do you always jump to conclusions like that Grandma? I said nothing about his name having anything to do with his being a citizen. But as a Christian I would not want to be named after Mohammed’s grandson. I also would not want to named after a father who abandoned him at age 2 and only bothered to visit him one more time in his life. I would have changed my name as soon as I could. For a man who claims to be a Christian Obama sure does some strange things. Things like requiring the symbol for Christ to be covered up before he would give the speech at Georgetown University. I very much doubt he would have demanded that muslims do the same if he spoke at one of their schools.
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What a fun topic! When readers questioned topics like obama or Fargo’s precious group that are entitled t a week of honor and a city funded parade some editors might see it as stepping on toes and not allowed. The we get to see firsthand what censorship is all about. Someone made a comment about the areavoices moderators having the right to control this site. Well not if it means censorship to control what message they want to allow portrayed. That would be more like how the Chinese control their press.
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I think they have. It seems that there are some who are missing. My guess is that they have been blocked from posting or their accounts have been terminated. If you see a comment that violates the terms, you can probably contact the moderators about it. I know they don’t have a “report” button but maybe you can send them a message citing the comments you view as inflammatory, insulting, or hate speech.
Oh My God…. You guys are the biggest “tattletales” I’ve ever seen. We’re not in 2nd grade anymore. We can handle hearing opinions differing from our own. We don’t need to “report” people who we don’t like or whose opinions are not the same as ours. Grow up, people!
Please read my post more closely. I was responding to someone concerned about posters who were breaking the terms and conditions, and my words came directly from the terms and conditions page of the site.
I have absolutely nothing wrong with people who have different opinions than I on here. I don’t believe I encouraged anyone to report people they don’t like or who have different opinions. I don’t think anyone said that.
This forum has been a great place to discuss issues with people who hold differing opinions. I don’t think I’ve ever insulted anyone on here, but I have posted my opinion and have backed it up with quotes, etc… I enjoy reading the opinions of others and would never report anyone for having an opinion different than mine. I may post my opinion and give reasons for it. And, I may point out where I believe their opinion or statement does not mesh with the law, Constitution, or history.
AreaVoices is a great resource for the community. It’s a wonderful venue to post comments. But, there are rules and guidelines. Those who use it as a place to insult, spread hate speech, or launch personal attacks should be blocked or banned since they are not adhering to the terms and conditions to which they agreed.
So, again, I’m not condoning reporting people simply because they have an opinion different than your own. That would be silly. But, if you feel a person is posting comments that are insulting, inflammatory, or hate speech, then you have every right to let the moderators know. People have no right to post comments that are against the terms and conditions.
I hope this clarifies my comment. And, don’t worry, I’m not going to report you for having a different opinion than mine
Have a great day!
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What I feel is wrong and disturbing about the way the Forum is handling this is that they block posting or stop conversation when too many people have a differing opinion from their own. I have seen this quite regularly. Oh, and Kerry, I promise I won’t “report” you for having a different opinion
How do you know what ‘their’ opinion is?
Do you even know who ‘they’ are and if all of ‘them’ share the same opinions.
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When posts disappear that argue against the famous city funded parade, though they did not break any rules, I think some others opinions just might be possible to extrapolate. Then when the blog article has to be closed to stop outcry from the public it becomes interpolation. Yes I do believe some people are able to sometimes interpret others opinions.
Kerry, thanks for the elementary lesson on reporting someone. I took a cue from the moderators, they removed the link many weeks ago to discourage BS complaints and post reporting that didn’t merit a reason to remove them. Perhaps they do NOT want to be drawn into personal battles over lame complaints, tendered by individuals who are more concerned with shutting down a poster’s ability to post than whether or not the posts actually violate terms.
I am quite confident that between the 3 of them, they are on top of everything and don’t need 50 complaints a day regarding the inflamatory nature of someone’s opinion. Opinons are like a-holes. Everyone has them, some really stink, but we should not try to censor them just because we don’t agree with what they have to say. Let the Thumbs do the voting. It became clear when they(mods) said they didn’t want to “babysit” us, or be asked to remove posts or posters because someone didn’t like that poster.
I don’t assume that people have been removed simply because they no longer post or haven’t in a while. Life gets in the way, they might be on vacation, they might be on enforced moderation, who knows? Far be it from me to determine from basically NO evidence, that ANYONE has been booted by this site.
To date, I’ve never seen a single reference posted by ANY moderator that specifically names a poster that has been booted from the forum. I think that they would refrain from making such statements for legal reasons and that is why we will never know if they shut someone down, or the person decided to move on to a forum that more fits their style.
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“All the original state constitutions explicitly referred to God. (Even today, all 50 still do.) Eleven of the 13 original states included in their constitutions explicitly religious tests for holding office. And some even established official state religions. The reason the Constitution does not refer more explicitly to religion is because religion was not thought to be any business of the limited federal government, but rather the business of state governments. The Establishment Clause was drafted to keep the federal government out of the states’ way on the subject of religion. That is why it bans laws “respecting an establishment of religion” it was phrased to prohibit both laws that set up a national church and also laws that might forbid established churches at the state level. Once again, it was certainly not passed to remove religion from public life. In fact, on the same day Congress proposed the First Amendment, it made provisions for hiring its own chaplain a practice that continues to the present.”
There is a daily prayer in the House. http://chaplain.house.gov/
An interesting history lesson from Christopher Hitchens.
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It’s interesting that some people equate gov’t not being involved in religion with removing religion from public life. To me it says something tragically sad about those “faithful” and their need for icons.
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