by INFORUM
ND, Minn. to debate law like Arizona’s
July 10, 2010 at 7:00 pm in INFORUM
Lawmakers in Minnesota and North Dakota expect laws styled after Arizona’s controversial immigration law to be introduced in both states’ legislative sessions next year.
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All 50 states should have similar laws!
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they do- called FEDERAL LAW…but Obummer wont do anything because there goes half his votes. What? Illegals cant vote? They sure do, and its because libs think a national ID card is racist…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Right, because the federal government stopped enforcing its immigration law on January 20, 2009.
This has been a long standing problem that has existed, in much the same form, under Republican and Democratic presidents both popular and unpopular. To cynically blame it on the current president who you apparently dislike ignores the history of the issue and everyone knows what happens when you ignore history.
And as for the issue of a national ID card: The argument against it isn’t in any way based on race, it’s one of privacy, expense, and necessity. You seem to think it will solve a nebulous, and mostly nonexistent, problem of illegal immigrant voters – but first what evidence exists that illegal immigrants vote in anything close to important numbers, and second what evidence exists that a mandatory national ID card would fix that? Beyond that what other need does it serve? Any? And how much, do you think, would it cost to actually institute a national ID card system?
Come on, I realize these are complex issues that you’re trying to reduce down to a pithy comment, but you can manage that without being outright wrong.
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President Eisenhower(R) in 1953 cut off illegal immigration from our Mexican border right after he became President with only 1,075 Border Patrol agents – less than one-tenth of today’s force. And kept it under control for his entire term.
How did he do it? Simple. First he transfered any political connected border patrol agents to other parts of the country, where their influence would not have any effect. Then he swept the south west and rounded up the illegals and instead of just depositing them on the other side of the border like we do now, he shipped them deep into Mexico before releasing them. Most couldn’t come back because of the distance and expense – and most didn’t like the trip because he used actual ships and the trip was not real smooth.
And since this came from the very top, Eisenhower himself, the normal congress critters and others in high places in government were overridden. Illegal migration dropped 95% by the late 1950s.
We need to crack down hard on employers who hire illegals. Without jobs, the illegals won’t come. That’s a well know fact. Why don’t we deal with it in a way that will work? Because the illegals are a good source of cheap labor and the greedy republicans love their profits.
This is just another wedge issue for the republicans, like abortion, drugs, terrorism, etc. A lot of noise, with nothing getting done because of the emotional control factor of their base and the money to be made.
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Heres an idea, Our national gaurd troops do their “2 weeks of intense training every year”. I think that during their training we should deploy them along the border. I also believe that if someone is running the border, we should shoot at them. It wont take very long before the word gets out and if an illegal is running and sees his friend laying there with gunshots, he is likley to turn around. It is that simple and I know it would work.
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I can’t believe how many people “Like” this comment. It is basically allowing a single person with a gun to be the judge, jury, and executioner and murder people for crossing a border. I agree that something needs to be done, but murder is the most horrible solution a person could possibly propose. Where would it stop? Should we round up all of the people that are in the country illegally and put them in camps where we starve them and then gas them and incinerate their bodies? Seriously, what are you thinking.
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I agree – what blind, ignorant hatred…
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Is that for the stragglers after the mine field.
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I agree that all states need to do something. What is a real tragedy is that the states need to do anything at all. Why is the federal government not doing what it needs to do to stop this foreign invasion?
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Oh it’s beginning there too. It should be interesting to see it play out. With all the attention, I get the feeling this time it won’t just go away.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/us/10enforce.html?_r=1&ref=politics
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The answer is the same for obama as it was when bush was in office…”votes”. Whether it be the liberal support deep in the minoroties and unions or the right in its big business support from their desire for cheap labor. The one thing neither party wants to look out for is the American public. They’re afraid to do their job when they can avoid trouble and bad press by skirting it.
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because the gov’t is incompetent
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MSNBC has a poll asking do you support the Arizona law?
95.9%
Yes
2,990,688 votes
The results are clear…
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And the majority of people supported slavery, segregation, and keeping interracial marriages illegal. Sometimes the majority is so far wrong it’s funny.
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Of course all states should have similar law. The Federal Government refuses to enforce their illegal alien law so each state has to do it for themselves. Regarding the “racial profiling” remark by Raul… The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of illegal aliens who come to America are from Mexico. They have broken Federal Law. Thet are not “innocent.” They are criminals. If the vast majority of…lets say…jewelry store robberies were committed by blonde haired, blue eyed women that were about 5’5″ and 120 lbs, wouldn’t you want the police (and the owners of the stores) to watch out for and pay significantly more attention to women fitting that description? Hello. Common sense. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck…it’s A DUCK.
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I’m certain that there will be some people unnecessarily hassled by the law, and that’s a shame. Hopefully officials will use good discretion when checking immigration status. We do need to enact these state laws because our country is being overrun by illegals. The Arizona law and others which are soon to be passed are born of desperation. The illegals take our jobs at a time when we don’t have any to spare, and likewise they get free medical services when U.S. citizens can’t afford them. No fair!
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· Prohibits law enforcement officials and law enforcement agencies of this state or counties, municipalities and political subdivisions from restricting or limiting the enforcement of the federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law.
· Requires law enforcement officials and agencies to make a reasonable attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a stop, detention or arrest in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present, unless the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.
I see no problem with this.
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I need to correct myself. The interview I saw must have been taped earlier… the total appears to be up to a few dozen.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/07/news/economy/farm_worker_jobs/index.htm?hpt=T2
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Requires law enforcement officials and agencies to make a reasonable attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a stop, detention or arrest in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present, unless the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.
Hmmmm, if I am stopped for speeding I need to provide a valid driver’s license. Don’t have one and live in a border state with high number of illegals? Makes perfect sense to me.
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What I always wonder about with this is: What constitutes proof of citizenship? A driver’s license is not proof of citizenship, it only proves you’ve been certified to drive. A passport would do, or a birth certificate, or a green card if you weren’t born here. But for natural born citizens of the US, how many carry sufficient proof of their citizenship regularly? I know I don’t carry my passport around with me everywhere.
I probably don’t have to worry, though, because I’m white and although I could easily be an illegal immigrant from Canada no one would think to ask me for proof of my citizenship.
But no, this will NEVER lead to racial profiling…
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Keevin Lanners: No One is targeted for the color of their skin! If an illegal Mexican is stopped and cannot produce a valid drivers license then their citizenship should be questioned. Pullinf the race card into this is really getting old.
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@opinionated “No One is targeted for the color of their skin!”
What color is the sky in your world?
Let me put it this way… If a car with 4 people in it is stopped for speeding and the driver produces a valid driver’s license there is no probable cause for the officer to then check the status of the other 4 occupants unless there is a reasonable level of evidence of illegal activity. That is the basic level of legal understanding the AZ lawmaker was lacking.
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/speeding-or-moving-violation-car-search.html
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized”
And by the way, pulling the old “you’re pulling the race card” card is pretty ridiculous when we’re talking about race. Nice try though.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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In your example if 4 Hispanics were in a car and the driver had a valid drivers license, nothing would probably happen. However, I could see a cargo van with 12 people in the back having all the papers checked. That would be a case of reasonable suspicion since it isn’t too often that legal citizens are found in that way (unless they are doing something else probably illegal…)
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A driver’s license is not proof of citizenship.
If I (a white man) am stopped in Arizona and don’t have my license I stand a good chance of getting a warning, especially if I play the pathetic confused kid card which works doubly well with a ND license plate in any other part of the country. But if I weren’t white and were stopped there and found myself in the same situation, then what? Under this law its probable cause to determine my immigration status, which can only be done by first establishing my identity, which means I’d get hauled in and held until it could be proven one way or another whether or not I was here legally.
I’m not even saying it would be a conscious, pre-meditated decision taken on the cop’s part, but the end result is the same: The white guy walks, the non-white guy spends a night or more in jail all because of the cop who pulled him over’s preconceptions.
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Ha! You’ve obviously never driven in Arizona, have you…
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@lovenorthdakota – I agree completely. Maybe we can just put something on their clothes to identify the legal ones. Maybe a star. What do you think?
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PHOENIX – With Arizona’s new immigration law just weeks away from going into effect, many people are looking into becoming legal citizens of the United States. On Saturday, a workshop was held in the valley by the My Family Votes organization to teach people how to go about doing that.
One-thousand people came to the event, which was the biggest turnout the workshop had ever experienced.
Guess it hadn’t occurred to them before?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Where was immigration when we needed them? We could have had nearly 1000 just at 1 event!
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I really don’t think the North Dakota Legislature will enact an Arizona-type immigration law. Our lawmakers in Bismarck are famous for their “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mentality.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You’re right Rick, but I think there’s far more to it. It’s beyond the “if it ain’t broke” analogy, it’s encroaching upon “best way to keep out of trouble is to avoid joining the discussion”. Even if it means being irresponsible for not standing up when you should we have a few politicians locally with “No Brass”.
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And their, “If it’s broke, but we like it even though it’s unconstitutional and unenforceable, don’t fix it” mentality. Case in point, the still on the books cohabitation law.
Although I do find it very funny that in a state like ND a gay couple can live together more legally than an unmarried straight couple…
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If I am raising suspicion of police officers by: Speeding, Driving Drunk, getting caught shoplifting, stealing, getting in a fight, generally causing a problem in society.
This is no discrimination, this is the police doing there Job. If I have no proof of citezenship. (Driver’s licence) or passport and visa I should be subject to deportation.
There should be no long drawn out legal process, it is a black and white issue, You are a citizen with ID or you are not. If not you have no rights. No lawer will be provided for you. So, if you are in America Illeagaly and want to stay under the rader. Keep your nose clean, be an Ideal, model citizen and support yourself by staying off of welfare. But if and when you are caught, go peacefuly
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What rights SHOULD illegal aliens have? Should they get to vote and get drivers licenses and jobs and not have to pay taxes (no ssn) and reap but not sow?
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Well Duh! Rights are for Citizens! You should have paid more attention in History class. You know, the people who pay takes and are Americans.
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The Constitution protects American citizens. Non-American citizens do not enjoy the protections written within it. They do not apply to them.
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Wrong.
“It is indisputable, well-settled Constitutional law that the Constitution restricts the actions of the Government with respect to both American citizens and foreigners. ”
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/02/01/collins/index.html
Hot debate. What do you think?
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That is not a reputable source for information about the Constitution, chief…
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@jackactionhero – I see you didn’t read it or you would have seen the quotes from court decisions and justices. Chief.
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Well yeah. I flat out told you I wasn’t going to. So do they have the right to a free, court-appointed attorney as well?
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Ignoring the argument of whether or not constitutionally granted rights apply to non-citizens within the US border there is still the issue of basic human rights… something the proponents of ideas like these seem to forget very readily.
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What basic human rights should we give criminals from other countries?
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There seems to be a misconception that simply producing a valid driver’s license is required under the Arizona law. Wrong. A DL is not proof of citizenship. The Arizona law requires all immigrants, regardless of how long they’ve lived in the country, to produce, on demand, papers that prove their status. If people are unable to produce said paperwork, they can be arrested and held until their status is confirmed.
Technically, it’s possible that a US-born citizen could be arrested and held on suspicion of being an illegal since, as a citizen, they would have no paperwork to prove otherwise (remember, a driver’s license does not count).
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I’d love to see the Federal government win this case and THEN have a judicial, legislative and citizen awakening that the CONSTITUTION determines the responsibilities AND the limits on the power of the federal government. And as a result, we could get back to the enumerated powers limts on the federal government. They have been able to twist the wording of the constitution to allow them to do almost anything, but now are trying to protect the sanctity of the consitituion from the overreach of the state government. The term “hypocrit” comes to mind.
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Eisenhower was a republican
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something needs to be done- this may be a the right step- I don’t see it going far with Al Carlson leading the charge- the only good thing that could come out of his mouth is his last breath. Who keeps voting for that idiot?
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I like Arizona’s law but if a state doesnt want to enact a law similar to Zona’s then that’s their choice. I’d prefer the states to deal with it rather than our incompetent federal gov’t
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Gary Fiss said, “…every country in the world is walking all over us and this is totally unacceptable, our rights and protection should come before worrying if some person of a different color is getting harrassed. ”
This is an interesting point of view. Our rights and protections come first, unless your skin color is different. Then we shouldn’t worry about their rights and protections.
However, I’m not opposed to the Arizona law based on what I believe will be discrimination (yeah, I know how the law is written…I also know human nature). I’m opposed to it because the job belongs to the US Gov’t. So, instead of spending the energy on the Arizona law, people could have been demanding that the US Gov’t do their job.
For some reason, tho, people seem opposed to actually following through on their beliefs…in the end, it’s “I want my side to win” (that’s R or D) even when their side continually fails to solve the problems facing the USA.
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I tend to think this was a somewhat misguided attempt by one state to grab national attention and focus it on immigration in an attempt to get the federal government to do something about it.
It has done that pretty effectively, but it does seem like there should have been a cheaper way to get it done considering how much time and effort it’s going to take their state attorney general’s office to (probably unsuccessfully) defend the federal challenge.
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The Arizona law is more fair than the federal immigration law, he Arizona law states that a person has to be stopped for another issue than questioned their right to be here. What’s wrong with being questioned in the first place as to the right to be here, I bet being a person with light skin in Mexico they wouldn’t be worried if they were violating my rights. We have to tougher on our laws in this country, every country in the world is walking all over us and this is totally unacceptable, our rights and protection should come before worrying if some person of a different color is getting harrassed. As long as I am being protected and treated as a U.S. citizen (as I should be) I really don’t care much about people that is not suppose to be here. They want to be here legally than welcome if not don’t let the door hit you in the rump leaving.
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But what about a non-white US citizen (who may even have a bit of an accent, although they were born here to legal resident parents) who is pulled over and grilled about their immigration status? A driver’s license is not sufficient proof of citizenship, so what then? They get hauled in to lockup and held there until someone can get an official copy of their birth certificate to prove they’re a citizen?
But no, no, that’s totally okay that they (a US citizen equal in all ways to you) is so harassed and detained for what is ultimately no reason.
The issue isn’t whether or not this will catch and deport illegal immigrants, the real issue is the unintended consequences. Because there always are at least a few, and in this case it’s really only a matter of time before something like what I described happens.
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WHoops…that comment was supposed to be a reply to Gary Flag, not Libertarian’s. Tho, my response to complaints of Federal incompetence is about the same. If we want it, we have to demand it…and I’ve not seen any evidence that ‘the people’ have any real interest in change.
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and we go to mexico/germany/russia WE are expected to have “our papers”, and if we dont, we get kicked the F out of that country (if not jail)…why should it be any different here?
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Cleatus, we’re not talking about visitors on vacation, we’re talking about citizens. My wife was born out of this country almost 40 years ago, and with this law she would be required to carry all of her papers at all times. We have thousands of veterans who were born outside the U.S., and they would be required to carry their immigration papers as well.
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dont try to muddy the waters…this is about ILLEGAL aliens. I wouldnt suspect a cop would go any further than a simple drivers license check- and you KNOW they wouldnt as they would figure that they have every group breathing down their neck ready to accuse them of racisim/grouping/etc…
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That’s not muddying the waters, that’s pointing out exactly what the problem with this law is!
It is intended to affect illegal immigrants, yes, but it is going to do far more than that. There are ALWAYS unintended consequences, and when it is left up to the discretion of the officers involved as to “what an illegal looks like”, and driver’s licenses are not proof of citizenship (because they are not), it’s only going to end badly.
Maybe not every time, but enough times that it’s unacceptable.
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It’s simply ridiculous that we have come to the point that this is even UP for discussion!! If you weren’t born here then you go through the process that every other non national citizen went through, pay your dues take your tests then get your green card. I don’t seem to understand what makes the citizens from Mexico think they are better then everyone from the other parts of the world? Im sorry for thoes who are legal citizens but if you are then hold your immigration papers up high and be proud because YOU should be, you earned your right to be here and pay your taxes like those of us born here. If every state in the union would adopt the new rules that Arizona has and be FIRM about them then we may just start to get a handle back on things again. IT’s not even about the color of your skin. That excuse is used because the majority of the illigals are from hispanic discent, it’s not color it’s facts sorry not every thing is P.C so stop using the race card on this folks bleeding hearts are not going to stop this problem. I don’t mind anyone from any country living here just do it legally, end of story!!
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dont bring common sense into this…the left will never allow it…
Thats what i dont get- your here ILLEGALLY. Which means YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW. Why this is so hard to follow i dont get. Would you allow somone to break into your home? The are aso breaking the law.
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Cleatus, Stephanie…..The issue for many of us who object to this law has nothing to do with the illegals, they should be sent back home or incarcerated. Repeat, illegals should be deported. What many of us object to is the fact that legal residence, U.S. citizens, will have to prove their status on the spot or quite possibly go to jail. Guilty until they can prove their innocence.
Fix illegal immigration, but it better damned sure be done without infringing on the rights of U.S. citizens.
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Then it will never be fixed…god forbid anyone might be inconvenienced to apply a law.
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Neither party wants to end illegal immigration. All they have to do is fine employers for hiring them; but of course whatever party does that will lose all of those precious votes. Sometimes the two party system stinks !!!
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